Mets Could Add Tomo Ohka

According to Ken Davidoff of Newsday, the Mets are likely negotiating with free agent righty Tomo Ohka.  Omar Minaya is familiar with Ohka from his time in Montreal.

Three teams have looked at Ohka's medical records, and one NL East team besides the Mets is in the mix.  The Marlins and Phillies don't make sense, leaving the Braves or Nats as possibilities.  Washington made Ohka an offer a month ago but it wasn't enough.

UPDATE: The Washington Post confirms that the Nationals are still in the mix.

Click here to view my full profile on Ohka.

Comments

[hood]

Damn Alou and Toma Ohka might be the best signings of the year. And they may both be by the Mets. Livin right outside DC I have seen Ohka pitch alot. He isn't all that bad probably get him cheap.

[TheRealErik]

Ohka's lost velocity. I'm not so keen on this signing.

Still, Humber and Pelfrey ain't ready. Perez and Maine could suck. I guess Ohka could be okay.

Please kill me. This rotation is terrible.

[Atobe]

It's essentially the same rotation if pedro is back by the ASB, the same one that killed everyone in the NL east last year. Yeah the mets starting staff could give up more then 1 run per game than anyone else, but if their bats score more than 1, it doesn't matter.

Btw no matter how much velocity Ohka lost, he's still an ugprade over Steve Trachsel.

[bsox21]

"Btw no matter how much velocity Ohka lost, he's still an ugprade over Steve Trachsel."

Exactly.

If Ohka can start 28 games in Shea, he'd win 12-14 games.

I'd love to see this signing.

Do it to me again Omar.

[Baseballfan79]

love to see the mets get him. It would be great for the marlins. He would add 3-4 HRs to Willingham, Miggy, Jacobs, Hanley and Uggla each per year.

[wood34]

Randy Johnson to Yanks.

[bravesrule14]

wood do u mean Johnson to the D'backs or are u making a random and weird comment

[bravesrule14]

Ohka would also be good for the Braves as well especially Andruw, Chipper, McCann, LaRoche, and Francoeur. The Phillies too

[bsox21]

its funny,....

endless morons come here and wax poetic about meche and lilly and how they will turn things around in their respective cities, but ohka jus stinks.

id take ohka over meche, eaton, dreifort, milton, clement, heck, if could work with david duncan, he'd be better than suppan.

anyways, thanks to scheurholz for committing huge on hudson. it would have been tough on us if u spent all that money on a good baseball player.

thanks to the marlins for giving us anything remotely valuable for mike jacobs and yusmeiro petit, who had no chance of ever being meaningful members of our team.

we are quite happy with our starting catcher and clean up hitter.

thanks to the phillies for, well, being the phillies.

signing eaton for 30 million dollars and letting padilla (WAY better than eaton) go for nothing was jus icing on the cake.

we will take ohka, and kick all of ur asses again in 2007.

nobody u blow hards put on the mound can stop

reyes
the duke
beltran AKA best player in the league
delgado
wright
alou
green
valentin

we kicked ur ass with steve trachsel as our #3.

steve trachsel folks.

ohka will be PLENTY good enough to kick ur asses again.

[allabouthephils]

Ohka is a good solid signing for a team that needs pitching help in a bad way... I don't see this team going into the season with this rotation otherwise, they won't win the division... Glavine, Hernandez, Trachsel, Ohka and Maine ???.... ouch that isnt good...

"nobody u blow hards put on the mound can stop

reyes
the duke
beltran AKA best player in the league
delgado
wright
alou
green
valentin"

Tell me how your rotation is going to stop

Rollins
Victorino
Utley
Howard
Burrell
Rowand
Helms
Barajas

This lineup is actually improved from last years... Imagine improving the lineup that had the most runs in the NL last year... I think the Mets rotation has a little more to worry about than the Phils when dealing with their respective lineups... Not saying the Phils have a better lineup...Im just saying that comparing the quality of the Mets rotation when facing the Phils and vice versa.. The Phils win that one.

[Baseballfan79]

if you read back bsox I ripped the signings of eaton as batting practice, the trade for garcia for the same exact thing as well. I ripped the signing of lilly and menche specially their amounts. There have been 2 good signings all offseason really and those were alou and schmidt for their prices really.

But, before Jacobs got hurt his OPS was higher then Carlos Delgado's OPS. Funny how it worked out in the end and no I am not saying he is as good as Carlos but he is going to be a solid player. Pettit will end up a number 3 for someone (trade bait still). Just like Milledge he had a down year.

Traschsel for the record never kicked butt. I dont see Ohka doing it either wherever he goes.

But hey I am in fear of a 1-3 of Glavine, El Duque and Ohka. I mean that is something to inspire dread :)

I still think it shall be a fun 4 team race this year.

[bsox21]

if ohka was white, there would be 50 people on this thread hoping for their team to get him.

he's the same pither as suppan, with MORE upside.

giv him an offense and bullpen, and some touch up from rick peterson, and we could be talking a 190 inning, 14 win, 4.00 ERA season.

apparently, this type of season is worth about 110 million dollars.

not a bad pick up, but he's asian, so nobody here will root for it.

[allabouthephils]

One last thing.. Your comment about Beltran being the best player is a debate in itself....

I don't know how you possibly take that distinction away from Albert Pujols... Better hitter... Smarter baserunner... Gold glove caliber... One of the smartest players in the game... It's like comparing apples and oranges but I still take Albert..

[Baseballfan79]

if ohka was white, there would be 50 people on this thread hoping for their team to get him.

White or Black Okha and Moyer both suck and both about the same players. Please dont bring race into an arguement instead of founding your arguement upon reason.

To make it simple:

Best rotation: Marlins
Best Lineup: Phillies/Braves/Mets (4,5,7 in baseball in runs scored)

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_team_stats.jsp?statType=1&timeFrame=1&c_id=mlb&groupByTeam=true&sitSplit=&Submit=Submit&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=2006&sortByStat=R

Best Bullpen: Braves (soriano+ Wickman is a nice back 2)

[allabouthephils]

Ohka will get the same type of deal that Wolf got in LA... Ohka had rotator cuff problems last year... No team is going to make a commitment on a player coming off rotator cuff probs... You can say Adam Eaton got huge money and he was has health probs... He had a finger problem and that is a ton different than a rotator cuff... I agree that there is racism in sports.. I agree there is racism in baseball.... I think it's much more prevelant in the NBA though... I don't think there is any racial connection between every team in baseball and Tomo Ohka LOL... Chan Ho Park got a massive contract if you don't remember and he is Korean, but he was healthy... Randy Wolf got a one year deal... Ohka made 4.5MM last year and will gain on that.. He could probably command a 6 or 7MM deal in the 2 to 3 year range..... thats not unreasonable... In this market, that's a steal.

[allabouthephils]

You want to know something BSox21... A professor of mine once said that the person who accuses the most, has more questions about himself than he does anyone else... Keep spewing racist accusations.... It just proves that your trying to over compensate for your own thoughts on the subject... I've seen plenty of it over my time... Im a white boy who grew up in the Stone Villa projects in South Jersey... Now I live in Asotin, Washington ... Complete difference in culture and opinion. You fit the profile just by your words.... My point is, QUIT ACCUSING OTHERS OF BEING RACIST... IT MAKES YOU LOOK IGNORANT.

[bsox21]

lol....he's had an ERA in the 4's for a couple years and posted a low 3's in montreal under omar before.

he sucks now?

his peripherals have been solid.

its all about race u racist prick.

u look at runs scored witout taking into account park factors?

put the mets lineup in philly and then score #1 in baseball.

u can deny race all u want.

ohka is better than 90% of the shitty white pitchers defended on this board every day.

ur a racist prick.

ohka is every bit as good as suppan, and better if he signs with the Mets.

[Aduncaroo]

He is Asian so nobody cares? What an ignorant comment. Seriously, thats probably the dumbest thing I have seen someone post. Do you personally know everyone on here? NO, YOU DONT. You don't know me, so therefore you have no right to post something so ignorant as to pretend everyone on here doesn't like him because he isn't white. What an idiot.

[Aduncaroo]

And when is the last time Ohka won NLCS MVP????? man, thats funny, I don't remember him doing it, or anyone calling him a clutch pitcher.

Your comments have made me and I'm sure everyone else not give a damn what you say anymore, you deserve NO respect. Go get your head checked out and get back to us when you are out of your straightjacket.

[bsox21]

all of you,

to deny racism exists in perception of players is to be a fucking monkey.

look at the way players are merketed.

ur all fucking american sheep.

the media feeds u so much bullshit, u have lost the capacity to think for urself.

go ahead and blindly deny that minorities dont face discrimination in EVERY walk of life.

keep living in ur fucking bubble.

[bsox21]

aduncaroo,

u think an NLCS MVP means jack shit?

are u really that stupid?

suppan is better than every pitcher that has never won an NLCS MVP now?

the few on this board that anything about baseball know ur an idiot now.

thanks..

[Aduncaroo]

You really need to stop while you might have an ounce of respecability left. To assume that all of us don't understand marketing and all the rest of what you are talking about is being in your own bubble. Do you think you are the only one that gets it??? Really? I would say D-Mat has gotten some pretty good publicity, wouldnt you??? Come on, this is a joke and I really hope that you are bringing personal issues into a freakin chat room. People are looking at the same things they do when they look at other pitchers. Thats past performance, stats, and trends. He velocity is going DOWN, that is a FACT. Is it race that has made his arm weaker? Is his arm mad at him for being Asian and therefore not throwing as hard?? Come on, what a joke.

[Aduncaroo]

I'm not saying Suppan is better, but he has credentials that Ohka does not, bottom line. It is very possible that talent wise, Ohka is as good. However, he has been more injury prone, hasn't thrown for 200 innings anywhere close to 8 seasons in a row, and hasn't been clutch when it really mattered. Don't sit there and call me an idiot because you say I know nothing about baseball. The fact is, you are telling us that Ohka is really better than he is. You are basing this NOT upon anything factual, but your views that race is altering everyone's perceptions of him. Do you think that Major league GM's are that stupid too?? Thats why he hasn't signed, because no one wants to sign someone not white? What a joke....

[bsox21]

since when is suppan a 200 inning pitcher u dumb shit?

beckett won a world series mvp.

he's been a HUGE bust.

david fucking eckstein won a playoff MVP.

its a MEANINGLESS credential in baseball terms u dumbass.

[Aduncaroo]

and race isn't? What an idiot..

[bsox21]

ur clearly too stupid for this discussion.....

bottom line: if the mets get ohka, he will be one of the best signings this off season.

[Aduncaroo]

Suppan has a 2.49 ERA in the postseason last year..throughout the World Series. He added an NLCS MVP which is not meaningless. What it DOES mean is that he was the BEST player in a playoff series that got them to the World Series. Ask the Cardinals if it was meaningless the way he performed....IT MEANS A LOT. To say it means nothing when a player performs that greatly on that stage is just ignorant. You are ignorant of things that really matter in baseball. I don't even have time to point out all the areas in which you are lacking in knowledge, and your unfactual, ignorant, biased, emotion-based arguments are harldy worth the time it takes to read them. You need a life.

[allabouthephils]

Aduncaroo,

The second racism came outta his mouth again, he lost all credibility... I'm actually going to ask that he be banned... Im actually going to drop a line and ask he be banned somehow.. Every discussion ends in me being called a racist prick or something to that extent... I like to talk baseball... Racism is rampant throughout sports, I agree. But, to start calling people names continously because we disagree is mean and rude... Being called a racist prick without having met me is crazy... Go get a life and stop attacking people who disagree with you... If you were educated beyond the back woods trailor mouth that you have, you would learn a little humility and respect for people...

[bobo]

Agreed. I definitely had a more sour taste in my mouth from this site after reading all the profanity and insults from a few posters (bsox and nrmax specifically), and that was before bsox's latest tirade.

Roto, there are a lot of people who are intelligently argumentative here (which I will happily admit to, and I think it's a good characteristic of a site), and then there's a few people with a complete lack of respect.

I've seen sites completely ruined by people like them in the past, so I trust you'll do the right thing.

[allabouthephils]

I have just emailed roto to express my opinion on bsox21 in particular... I hope that does something.. This is getting a little out of hand...

[ArodSucksAtLife]

I seem to be stuck in this strange bubble... my perceptions of the outside world are all twisted and I can't grasp the true meaning behind anything. I need a way to break down this barrier in my life so I can truely understand baseball and the oustide world. How can I break through? I need something to burst this bubble, I need a prick to pop this bubble. Where's Bsox21 he's a giant prick right?

[Aduncaroo]

I agree. Thanks for saying something too. I wanted to just let it go, but after the racist prick comment I had to let him know how ignorant he was being. To say that we all are racist because we don't like Ohka is out of control. Sorry if you think my commnents to him were rude, but I just cannot tolorate someone acting like they know me and everyone else, and saying we are racists. Again, my apologies to anyone that may think I was too harsh, but I had to let him know that you can't just go an generalize a random population of people as racists.

[pinetarhand]

Adunc, you must be racist because you like a Chi-town team. That means you probably think that Walter Payton & Michael Jordan are the best athletes of all time. Zambrano is probably your favorite pitcher & D-Lee is your favorite hitter. That means you're racist & hate white people, right?

[Baseballfan79]

Not sure what is up with Bsox seems to have racial problems or something but whatever.

I keep to my simple position that Ohka is a 4-5 type of guy. He isnt a guy that is going to make the mets rotation a force or any better then 4th best in the division. (marlins, phillies, braves and then mets and finally washington).

[Aduncaroo]

"Adunc, you must be racist because you like a Chi-town team. That means you probably think that Walter Payton & Michael Jordan are the best athletes of all time. Zambrano is probably your favorite pitcher & D-Lee is your favorite hitter."

Actually, its funny, most of that is true. I am actually a white kid (now 24) that used to live in Chicago in the days of Payton, Jordan, Ryno, Mark Grace, and Dawson. Most of my sports heroes were black, and I never really even thought about it, which I believe is truly how it should be. The thought of what race your favorite player is, when you are a little kid, shouldn't even cross your mind. Sports shouldn't even be about race, it should be about love of the game. While unfortunately race is involved because of the world in general, it should be an escape from that world into something that is free of all that crap.

What bsox21 just did was to make an attempt at ruining that for all of us. Hopefully we all love and appreciate the fact enough already that sports, in the fans mind, should be an escape from people and thier issues with race. Baseball is a great thing, and its just really unfortunate that Bsox21 doesn't see how truly great an escape it can be. What a sad person, I hope he learns to respect people and baseball more than that. I know he wouldn't be dumb enough to say those things to people's faces, or he would learn respect a whole lot quicker.

[Aduncaroo]

ok, so now that thats out of the way....

I agree that he is a 4 or 5 type guy, but could be one of the better 4 or 5's out there if he goes back to old form and his velocity comes back. I think he would be a good value for a Marquis type deal, but not more. (obviously, it would be a better value than Marquis is himself...)

[RotoAuthority]

Bsox21 you have gotten several complaints based on this thread. Please stop the race stuff or whatever you are saying to upset people. Next time it will be a ban.

[pinetarhand]

If he returns to form, he's a #2 or #3 guy on that rotation. If it's a 1 yr, $7MM deal, it's a very good one. Any more money or more than 2 years, & it gets in the risk category. A good year in Shea (pitcher's park & winning team) could really help his value in '08.

[nrmax88]

Im not going to call everyone in here a racist, but some of you are. If this wasnt the case, then people wouldnt be talking about how Omar loves the hispanics everytime a hispanic player is signed. This wouldnt even be a concern to anyone. Not everyone is a racist, but some people definitely are, even not by hating minorites, just letting the players skin affect your perception of a signing or trade. I would love Ohka, low risk high upside

[nrmax88]

People also forget(somebody already said this), but the Mets rotation isnt any worse then the one for the team who dominated the league last year. Their lineup is better. The mets could have lead the NL in runs, they were on cruise control for the last month of the season, giving bench players playing time, resting players, etc. The Phillies adding Garcia and Eaton doesnt scare me very much either. Especially facing them in Philly, we will just have to wait

[Baseballfan79]

Aduncaroo

With us both agreeing he is a 4-5 guy around. He is a possible upgrade to 3 at best if everything comes together for him (velocity back somehow- not how mota got his back, his movement returns, his strength for endurance returns, etc.). Do the mets really need a 4-5? They seem to have a mess of them in maine, vargas, etc etc. Their need to me seems to be more of a 1-2.

[Aduncaroo]

Ohka is not low risk if you give him more than a couple of years.

I don't understand why race needs to even be a discussion here...who cares what race Omar or anyone else signs? Its not about that, he and everyone else is trying to give their team the best chance to win. Stop making it about race!!! Its definately out there, but we don't need to sit there and discuss how everything might be affected by race. Just worry about baseball

[Aduncaroo]

Well, he is a normal 4 or 5 guy, but could be a 3 in this rotation. Sorry Mets fans, you have a great team, but the rotation does suck. Ohka would help it because he is at least the 3rd best pitcher on it, at least when completely healthy. So I do think he could help the mets, but I wouldnt go longer than a year, maybe two. He is worth it short term, but not long.

[Aduncaroo]

Yes, I do agree, what they really need is a 1 or 2. Its just not out there and they don't want to trade the kind of prospects it would take to get it. I don't blame them either. I would just do what they did last year, and that is rely on a great offense and hope for mediocre pitching. It got them very close, and Ohka, if he has a good season and comes back to form, could be the tiny bit they needed in their rotation. He isn't great, but they are banking on the fact that their rotation doesn't have to be.

[pinetarhand]

Between '01 & '05 Ohka had ERAs of 3.18, 4.16, 3.7, & 4.05. That's a solid #3 or a decent #2. I'll repeat myself, a return to form means he's a #2 or #3 on this staff.

[pinetarhand]

Oops, '02 to '05.

[Aduncaroo]

I agree pinetarhand, a return to form, on the Mets, makes him a 3, possibly even a 2 depending on Pedro and Glavine. Still, return to form is easy to say, much harder to do. Believe me, I'm a cubs fan. With the whole Prior and Wood thing, its hard, at least from my perspective, to expect that from someone that has had shoulder problems.....

[nrmax88]

Dunc, i agree, race shouldnt be an issue at all. But all im saying is that it is an issue, or you wouldnt have people complaining whenever Omar signs a latin ball player. I couldnt care less if the guy is black, white, mexican, or chinese, if he can play, then I want him on my team. I understand the Mets rotation isnt very strong, but their bullpen is very strong. This same pitching staff (plus steve trachsel) accumulated the 3rd best pitching season in the NL. No worries here

[Aduncaroo]

But I like this Mets team. I think they would be happy if he was healthy and won 15 games with an era around 4. With that offense, an era around 4 is like 3.25 on the average team. I live in St. Louis and have watched their offense make pitchers like Suppan, Marquis, Morris, and others look much better than they are. They don't need Ohka to be great, just good.

[nrmax88]

Exactly dunc, all the Mets SP need to do is get thru 6 innings with 3 runs everyday, this should give them an oppurtunity to win every game (obviously they wont, but they should have a chance to win every game with their pen and their lineup).

[Aduncaroo]

Nrmax,
Agreed. It shouldn't be about race. People that knock Omar are ignorant to the fact he has put together a very, very good team (elite in the NL) no matter if the players are latin or any other race. While their farm system isn't the best, the top prospects are as good as any other teams, with the exception of a few. Omar is the best thing that has happened to the Mets in a long time, so I hope the people that you are referring to can understand that. Last year the Mets had a very good team. With Pedro healthy, they get to the World Series. I don't pretend to know how the matchup would have went with the Tigers, but I would say putting a World Series type team out there should have shut up people saying that Omar tries to only sign latin players. Its a part of him and his heritage that should not be ignored, but he also puts that aside and puts together the best team he can. We could all learn from that and put this racist Sh*t aside.

[samael88]

"beltran AKA best player in the league"

by bsox21

lmao, im from puerto rico and i dont made that comment.

the best player in the league is albert pujols and everyone knows it.

[nrmax88]

Yeah, and also the whiniest player, complaining that glavine sucks even after glavine dominated the cards, complaining he is the true MVP, taking shots at Ryan Howard, hes a true class act. I used to like him, followed him all thru the minors, but he is a punk and he need to grow up.

[allabouthephils]

samael88,

I said that a few posts before... We may disagree on some thing but we got that one right lol...

Nrmax,

They're racists everywhere in the world... From the local shopping mall to congress... From the supreme court to the hookers on the street corner... It doesn't matter... Im sure there are people who are blatantly racist who post on this site... We are not the race police... It isn't our job to attack people for being racist... I am 100 % against discrimination of any and all kinds and I will correct people for letting their believes become public when controversial aka racist... There is a point when you become guilty for attacking people and the racist becomes the victim... I haven't seen any blatant racist comments come out of any persons computer... People can spin anything they want to sound anyway they like to cause chaos...

[samael88]

he is just a normal person, lmao u guys want role models now?

and btw what did he did to glavine the next day he say that, a big solo shot. and if u know spanish and read the true interview u will really see he is not taking shots at the ryan, he just making a valid point, mvp should be for a person in a playoff team.
o and btw 25 gw rbi. cardinals wouldnt be world champions if he wasnt there.

[samael88]

lol phils

[allabouthephils]

My point is that if someone posts something racist... We shouldn't sit back and call him every name in the book... It isn't our place to do that. We should politely correct him and tell him it's uncalled for... After that notify people who can deal with it further... Abrasive behavior and rude name calling isn't the way to solve problems.

[samael88]

btw before any 1 comes telling me bla bla howard mvp and all that stuff.

i like howard but i just think he deserved the hank aaron not mvp, but again it might be a tie, i think one time the gave the mvp to 2 players, not sure about that though.

[samael88]

on a final note : this site is so full of mets and cubbies fan.

[allabouthephils]

It makes it tough on Phils and Cards fans lol...

[nrmax88]

cardinals wouldnt be world champions if he wasnt there.

well u can say that again. They wouldnt even have been in the playoffs, probably not even the playoff hunt.

[pinetarhand]

"he just making a valid point"

Problem was that it wasn't valid since Howard led his team to a better record than the Cards & were just unfortunate to play in a stronger division. All the same, I'd take Pujols over Howard since Howard is a K-machine & can't play the D that Pujols does. Anyways, I don't think we should take away from Pujols for those 2 comments. He's a great competitor & was just showing it with those. As one of those many Cubs fans here, I have a lot of respect for Pujols & hope D-Lee stays healthy in '07 to give the Cubs that kind of hitter again.

Beltran vs Pujols? Pujols beats him in every hitting statistic. Only thing is that Beltran plays a premuim position while Pujols plays 1B. Both are gold-glovers though. One thing you can say about Pujols over Beltran is that Pujols can carry an entire team, while Beltran hasn't proven that yet, especially in '05 when everyone said he needed more protection. Pujols needs no protection. I do hope Beltran wins an MVP some day, he is an elite player.

[Aduncaroo]

Definately not in the playoffs without AP. Seriously though, I can't believe, aside from the obviously stupid race remarks, that bosox said Beltran is the best player in baseball. He is very, very good. However, AP is obviously better. The only thing that Beltran has that AP doesn't is that he is faster and plays a more important defensive position. But come on, compare numbers. AP is arguably the best hitter ever his first 5 or 6 seasons...however long its been. The guy's lifetime season averages are out of this world. It kills me to say this as a Cubs fan, but the guy is amazing to watch.
I do agree that he has had times where he was immature. Bashing Glavine and Howard, even if it was blown out of proportion, was childish. Just be happy for them and shut up. You won the world series, stop caring about MVP and be happy for a guy that has never won it before.
Everyone does expect him to be perfect, because he normally is, but he has made his mistakes. Still, I'd take him over Beltran, Santana, Soriano, or anyone else in a heartbeat. Anyone that wouldn't is biased because every single stat and trend says he is going to be at least one of the 5 best players ever if healthy...at least.

[samael88]

yup, and pintetar and aduncaroo ur are the only cubs fan i really respect here lol, atleast ur not hard headed.

[Aduncaroo]

I think that I would disagree with you pinetarhand.

Beltran carried the astros in the playoffs a couple of years ago. He had one of the best post seasons of any player ever. He couldn't get them to the WS that year, but AP isn't what got the Cards through the post-season this year, pitching did.

[pinetarhand]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....pujols over santana? They mean the same thing to their position in that there's nobody out there as good as them. I don't know if I'd take Pujols over Santana. Good hitting 1B, although not as good as Pujols, aren't too hard to find, while pitchers like Santana are about impossible to find.

[Aduncaroo]

Remember that...there actually are Cubs fans that are not totally stupid! I hate that there are so many that make us all look like idiots! Thats cool though, thanks for the remarks samael...its appreciated

P.S. - I learned not to be hard headed when I found myself living in St. Louis as a Cubs fan. It makes it really, really hard...

[pinetarhand]

Thing is that if you look at the stats of '04 Cards vs Astros series, Pujols did a little better than Beltran. He still did awesome & carried them through the playoffs though. Through an entire season though?

[Aduncaroo]

I knew I was going to get some talk about the Santana thing...I had to debate that one myself before I posted it. I had to think about it this way...if I were a GM, and there was a draft of everyone available, and I had the first pick, who would I pick?

This is why I would go with AP. He can help you win every game, not one out of every 5. Santana is easily the best pitcher out there, but he is a pitcher. Pujols helps with defense and offense. He is smart in every aspect of the game. Great baserunner. Look at his frame and tell me how in the world does he steal almost 20 bags a year? (He runs with the worst form EVER by the way...its fun to watch) Anyway, I do understand your points, and they are very valid. But, lets say you could take the next best first basemen or the next best pitcher.
I would rather have AP and any other pitcher than Santana and any other first basemen.

I know, I know, thats very debatable. I love Santana. Its just that he only affects 20% of the games and Pujols plays in all of them.

[Aduncaroo]

Yeah, AP can carry a team better than Beltran, thats for sure. Just saying Beltran showed signs that he can do it, and do it when it matters. I just want either of them!!!!

[pinetarhand]

As a Cubs fan, Aren't you miffed that Hendry decided to sign Soriano to 8 yr /$136MM when he wouldn't pony up for Beltran a few years back. I always thought that'd haunt us. Same as not ponying up a little more for Furcal last year. What's the Cub's 2 weakest positions in the field again?

[coolpapabell]

I am not very comfortable with threatening to ban bosox1 for calling people racists. People HAVE put up racist comments, and to this site's credit, everyone jumped on them, but no one threatened to ban them. It is a bit screwed up that you can get banned for accusing someone of being a racist, but you can’t get banned for actually being one. I totally support any initiative that will curb the overly rude name calling, but I can not support what I feel is a 14th century witch trail.

[Baseballfan79]

If you asked every gm in mlb whom the first player they would take to build a team I promise you every single one would take Albert Pujols. Peter gammons said that durring the end of last year.

He went on to say that the next 3 players chosen would be miguel cabrera, alex rodriguez and then David Wright.

Feel freeto check the logs on 790 the tickets website for the audio on it if you wish or dont believe.

Pujols could end up being the best pure hitter in the history of baseball when he is all said and done. He is a talent that is amazing to even try to consider specially with his age.

Beltran is a very nice player last year but he isnt close to the talent that Pujols is.

I hate the cardinals and mets both so I think I am unbiased here.

[pinetarhand]

I'd probably take Santana/Howard over Pujols/? because even though Howard is a small downgrade from Pujols, any other pitcher is a bigger downgrade from Santana.

[nrmax88]

agreed pinetarhand. Baseballfan, how do u gauruntee that they all pick pujols? I wouldnt take him to start a franchise. I would take Johan Santana first any day. I would also take Beltran over Pujols to start a franchise. It is much harder to find a CF who is a GG and can put up MVP type numbers from the plate then to find a GG caliber 1B that will put up MVP numbers from the plate. Same goes for Vernon Wells. I wouldnt say Howard is a downgrade from anyone really, he is only coming off his second year in the bigs. Whata beast that guy is

[nrmax88]

And i am not hating on Pujols, but there are more 1B that can be compared to pujols from a hitting standpoint right now( Howard, Berkman, Thome, Delgado, Konerko, Lee, Helton, Swisher, Giambi, Papi). Ok, now I know Pujols is a better player then all of these guys, but they are less of a drop off then in CF where u have beltran wells and Andruw, and then not a guy who can put up stats anywhere similar to those 3. Same goes for Santana.

[nrmax88]

And i would rather have Santana and say Laroche, or Swisher or someone like this rather then Pujols and say tom glavine. No knock on Pujols, but all im trying to say, as has been said before by others is that pitching and CF are at more of a premiumthen 1B, as dominant as Albert is

[Aduncaroo]

very valid points. I still would say I'll take Pujols and Carpenter over Johan and Howard. Howard is good. Does anyone actually realize how old his is? If my memory serves me correctly, he is right around Pujols age. The difference is the five years AP put up MVP numbers. Consistency at it's very finest.

I understand about Johan and the whole 1B thing, but I think to have AP in your lineup and Carpenter? pitching is better than Howard in your lineup and Johan pitching. I say this because Johan only pitches 20% of the games at best! That means that he is NOT a factor 80% of the time. Same with Carpenter. SO that leaves you with the only difference being Pujols and Howard for 80% of the games. Pujols has a WAY better OBP, can actually steal bases, DOESNT STRIKE OUT AT ALL, and plays GG defense. Howard can say none of that. Again, either position is a great one to be in, but I'll still take the player who has a chance to be the greatest of all time any day

[Aduncaroo]

Coolpapabell,
Are you serious with the witch hunt comment? Its one thing for him to get in trouble for accusing someone of being racist, its a whole other thing to accuse an entire chat room of it for NO REASON at all and to be calling people racist pricks. I know what you are saying but he was WAY beyond over the line and if I were running a site I would not want people that just snap like that for no other reason that personal issues on it.

[Aduncaroo]

For the record, Howard is actually OLDER than Pujols, something a lot of people don't know. Howard was born in November of '79 and Pujols January of '80

[nrmax88]

I understand what your saying, but I am still taking Howard and Johan over Pujols and carp. Its not a bad choice to have to make though. Howards defense also did get much better from the beginning of the year to the end also. It looked like he really worked hard to improve his de, but you would have to ask allaboutthephils i dont really know much about how he was practicing not following the phils but it seemed like his de got much better later in the season

[allabouthephils]

Howards' defense at first improved alot last year from his first season... However, he shouldn't ever win a gold glove while Pujols and D-Lee are around lol... He is servicable, but by no means in the category of Pujols and Derrick Lee...

He had the second most errors in baseball by a first baseman (14) and the 3rd worst fielding percentage in baseball (.991). Behind Nick Johnson in errors (15) and Nick Johnson and Conor Jackson in fielding percentage... That is skewed though because the first half of the season he was attrocious... He should be a middle of the pack defender at 1st this coming up year.

[ArodSucksAtLife]

Aren't there discrepencies(sp) with what albert's actual birthday is? or is that just some b.s. I read somewheres

[Aduncaroo]

I had heard some stuff about that too. I do know that his dad was a 3rd base coach in the majors. It seems like people would remember when he had a kid....

[bravesrule14]

i would take Johan and Howard over Pujols and Carp all day. oh and about the whole bsox race thing. Race does matter in baseball. You remember wen Milton Bradley was the only black person on the Dodgers at that moment and he was accusing Jeff Kent of being rascist(and by the wat Kent is an asshole i read a book about the Mets where when they pulled the rookie pranks on him he complained to the front office) and all they did was make him wear a clown costume in the airport. thats not as bad as others. anyway race is really big. there was the whole Curt Flood thing with Philly and the same goes for minority players today. If Dontrelle was white u guys would be saying last year was a fluke much like u r with Jake Peavy. im just saying race is a big issue and baseball is falling behind other sports.

[bsox21]

1) Beltran was I-N-J-U-R-E-D in 2005.

How is it that you call youself a baseball fan and STILL not know this?

You couldn't even do ur laundry if u hurt ur quad and shattered ur face.

Beltran played CF and batted 3rd for the Mets through these maladies.

2) 41+ HR power in Shea, which is equivalent to about 45-50. I'm not kidding.

Look at Beltran's home/road splits. If he plays for the Brewers, he hits 50 HRs.

3) Hit .300+ on the road in 06.

Take him out of Shea, and he does this for the WHOLE season.

4) Stole 18 or so bases. If the Mets needed him to, he could steal 40.

5) Widely considered the best baserunner in baseball, and sports the highest SB% success rate in the HISTORY OF BASEBALL with a min # of attempts. (Forget what the min # is.)

6) Gold Glove in CENTERFIELD vs a Gold Glove at FIRST BASE????

Are you fucking kidding me?

7) Very low K rates and steadily increasing walks throughout his career.

Beltran = Best player in the league.

Fuck Pujols.

[bsox21]

I jus read that someone else posted htat pujols is a "smarter baserunner" than beltran.

this board is officially full of retards.

beltran could round the bases 5 times for every 3 rounds that pujols makes.

i will come here to teach u all how this game works from time to time.

in the meantime, u can all fuck off.

[bravesrule14]

well jesus i tried to back u up damn. i do think is arguably the best all around player in the game and at the end of his career will be one of the greatest center fielders ever and a multiple MVP winner. oh and anyone who compares a Gold Glove at first to one in center should just quit life

[PeteRose]

"in the meantime, u can all fuck off."

The potty mouth poet strikes again!!!!

[pinetarhand]

Carlos Beltran was I-N-J-U-R-E-D in '06 as well. His hammy bothered him all year. He did about the same with the bat after the collision as he did before the collision. I've had him in my fantasy baseball league 3 years running, so of course I knew he was injured. Last I heard though, you're quadriceps doesn't stop you from running around the bases slowly after a HR. You can't tell me that having Delgado behind him didn't help him. I really don't know anybody who would say that he didn't improve party because of the protection Delgado gave him. Was it everything? Of course not. Has he proven he can carry a team on his back through 165 yet? Absolutely not. Will he ever have the chance? Probably not. Either way, he'll never touch Pujol's 1.100 OPS ability.

I wasn't saying that Pujols GG was as good as Beltran's GG. I was just trying to say he isn't a slouch like many 1B. Anyone who read the whole post would see that I first said that Beltran plays a premium postition while Pujols plays 1B.

Very low K-rate? He K'd 99 times in 510 AB's. That projects to what, 120 in a normal full season? That's a very good K-rate?

I didn't catch the part where someone said that Pujols is a smarter baserunner. That was ignorant. Adunc, Pujols has 36 SB's in 6 years. How did you get 20/yr?

[pinetarhand]

bravesfan & coolpapabell,

I've never ripped on D-Train & I've actually defended him in another post. Because Jeff Kent was an asshole we all deserve to be called racists? No shit race matters in every sport, but until I say something racist or otherwise, then don't call me one. & when someone says "your all racist pricks" & the such, like bsox has said many times before in many other posts, he's calling me a racist. I take that personally & I think every other non-racist person that visits this site sees it the same way. If it was 1 time, no big deal. 2 times it's annoying. With bsox, it's almost everytime he starts posting.

[allabouthephils]

I was the one who said Pujols was a smarter base runner.....

I stand by it... You don't have to steal 800 bases a year to be a SMART baserunner... Look at Alfonso Soriano, he is a horrific baserunner and most people will tell you that... he stole 41 bases last year... Pujols is consider by many to be the smartest baserunner in baseball...

[allabouthephils]

To make this a little clearer... I consider Pujols to be a SMARTER baserunner than Jose Reyes...Not faster, just smarter... That just simply means that he is smarter on the basepaths... When to go from 1st to 3rd and when not... When to try and score from 1st... These things all play into it... Speed has absolutely nothing to do with what I said...

[bsox21]

allaboutphils,

people that have mlb.tv or the mlb package, and actually WATCH these players play and listen to the announcers sing beltran's praises on the basepaths know that he is considered the best/smartest/most effective in every possible way baserunner in the league.

this is a ridiculous discussion. you have no idea how stupid u sound right now.

not only does pujols fail to compare to beltran on the basepaths...comparing the two is equivalent to comparing barry foster to barry sanders.

yes, foster was mildly effective here and there, but sanders was brilliant.

beltran is as good as u can possibly get on the bases while pujols is a sluggish 1B that stays within his means.

no contest.

also, based on beltran;s trends and trajectory, how can u say he will never touch a 1.000 OPS.

he would have arguably done it in 2006 if not for shea stadium.

either way, the gold glove D in CF WAY more than makes up for the 50 less points in OPS.

as for the person who referenced and injured quad not stopping u from hitting HRs....

More talking completely out of ur ass on this board.

an injured quad makes it painful to drive off ur legs.

if u have ever played ONE baseball game in ur life, u would know ur legs is where a LOT of ur power and ALL of ur balance come from during hitting, both of which are required to hit HRs to jackass.

[bsox21]

pinetar,

he also walked about 90 times.

99 Ks in 600 or so PAs while hitting 41 HRs is a GREAT K rate u dumbass.

U monkeys spit out all these #s and dont ignore the context in which they are generated, which is equivalent to not knowing the #s at all.

[bsox21]

"Carlos Beltran was I-N-J-U-R-E-D in '06 as well."

more brilliance from pinetar face.

a broken nail is an injury.

so is a severed leg.

there are DIFFERENT TYPES OF INJURIES u dumbass.

please stop the madness.

[Thrillhouse26]

Dude you really must want that ban?

Pujols is a better hitter which is what the stats prove. No question. It's just comes down to how much any one person weighs defensive prowess, baserunning, and position. You sound ridiculous intimating that Pujols could not be in the discussion as the best player in baseball. Your opinion is clearly noted that Beltran is worthy and I agree.

Beltran was 1 win behind Pujols last year in Win shares. And well ahead in VORP(85.4 vs 68.5). Also fun fact, your buddy Grady Sizmore was ahead of Beltran as well (69.1)

I checked in 2004 as well the only other year Beltran sniffed Pujols' offensive production. (92.3 vs 65.5) 40 vs 31 in win shares.

I think Albert Pujols is easily the no brainer pick. I know you feel like you must have your elitist inside rationale to go against the legions of monkeys and that's ok. I like Beltran a lot and he's definitely top 3. At least you're not saying Soriano is the 2nd best.

[Baseballfan79]

If I wanted more consistent good play for CF I would take Andruw Jones over Carlos Beltran.

If I wanted the most talented CF I would take Grady Sizemore over Carlos Beltran.

He is not even the best at his position. Let alone the best position player in baseball.

Perhaps nrmax88 and bsox21 are the same persn they both seem to always be injecting the same information back and forth. No offense if it isnt true just both of you seem to be taking a rather homer view here.

As for what I stated before I said it was from what Gammons said on the radio over what position players to take.

2 best position players in baseball are easily Arod and Pujols. Both will be known for the ages when they are done.

[Aduncaroo]

Agreed baseballfan. Pujols will go down in history, Beltran has a chance to make the Hall, but even thats not a lock. AP would have to quit not to make it.

Anyone who can actually say that Beltran is better than Pujols is just playing favorite bc facts do not support the arguement. Pujols is the best all around hitter that any of us have ever seen in our lifetime, and might end up being the best ever to play baseball. To take a player that might not make the hall of fame and is arguably not even the best at his postion, and tell us that he is better is having no respect for the game and for what Pujols has done. Think about it, do you know who has matched his production for the amount of time that he has been in the league??? NO ONE!!! Look who Beltran had around him the last couple of years to get him pitches to hit. Then look at Pujols last year and this year. Rolen and Edmonds absoultely sucked compared to Wright, Delgado, Reyes, blah blah blah. If you replace Beltran with Pujols in that order Pujols goes for 55 HR, 425 obp, and probably 165 RBI. Beltran in the Cards order does not even compare....think about it.

Also, Pujols played in a career low number of games (143) and still posted career highs in HRs. Look at this from Espn.com....

"I don't think there'll be any question who the No. 1 pick of your 2007 fantasy draft will be; it's Pujols, in one of the easiest calls in years. Think about it: In each of the past four seasons, he has managed at least a .330 batting average, 41 home runs, 117 RBI and 119 runs scored, and as the 2007 season dawns, he'll still only be 27 years old, which is that "magical" power season in a lot of people's eyes. In fact, it's remarkable that Pujols in 2006 managed career highs in homers (49) and RBI (137) despite playing a career low 143 games!"

End of story

[allabouthephils]

Not to change the topic from Pujols vs. Beltran back to ohka but I found this interesting...

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/pirates/s_486754.html

you guys have probably seen it already, but it's pretty relevant to Ohka...

[Aduncaroo]

Like I said before, he will probably get a Marquis like deal....although he would be much more valuable if someone could get him for two years instead of three....

[Aduncaroo]

Pinetarhand,
You are right, I guess it was just last year I was thinking of when AP stole 16 bases.

[Aduncaroo]

Last comment, but I had to share:

Pujols stats last year....
VS. LEFT: .336 / 1.055 VS. RIGHT: .329 / 1.118 HOME: .345 / 1.141 AWAY: .317 / 1.062
(Stats listed are batting average and OPS)

Beltran:
VS. LEFT: .247 / .834 VS. RIGHT: .288 / 1.054 HOME: .224 / .855 AWAY: .317 / 1.090

Lifetime avg. for Beltran - .281

Lifetime avg. for Pujols - .332!!!!!!!!!!

Beltran has NEVER hit above .307

Pujols has NEVER hit below .314

Beltran is 2 and a half years older than Pujols...

Pujols AVERAGES a 1.048 OPS LIFETIME!!!! AVERAGES .419 OBP, LIFETIME

Beltran? Try .847 OPS and .355 OBP

Take all this into account, then the fact that Pujols is just going to be 27 next year, beltran will just be turning 30.

So, to summarize, Beltran being better, let alone the best player in MLB is a freakin JOKE. End of story.

[pinetarhand]

bsox,

Who's stupid? Maybe you need some glasses because I said Beltran will never touch Pujols 1.100 OPS ability, not 1.000. Pujols has been putting up 1.000 to 1.100 OPS season every year except one since he's been in this league & your going to say that Beltran's trending towards 1.000 so we should consider him a great hitter like Pujols who hits 1.100 with ease? Please. Also, Beltran will NEVER come close to breaking the records that Pujols will. He has no chance at coming close to having the career stats that Pujols will. Period.

Pujols K'd 50 times in 600 PA. A-ram, 63 in 650 PA. Vlad, 68 in 650 PA, & we're to believe 99 in 600 PA is a GREAT K-rate? If the stat doesn't stack up to the best, then it's not great. & if it's middle of the pack for power hitters, then it's just average & not worth mentioning, no matter how you spell it out. BTW, Beltran K'd 101 times in nearly 700 PA in '04, so he's "trending" the wrong way, as you would say.

What is required to hit HR's to jackass? Cuz you're really starting to sound like a teenager that's trying to talk faster than what he/she can.

Beltran's hammy was a problem all last year. It made him miss games & leave in the middle of others so don't treat it like it was a broken toenail. He also strained his quad before the postseason, but that didn't stop him from hitting 3 HR's in 10 games on that stage. He had the quad injury in '05 durins ST. IF he wasn't able to perform better than league average because of it, the Mets should have put him on the DL. He said it only bothered his SB ability, never his hitting. Frank Thomas hit 12 HR in 34 games in '05 despite having a fractured ankle as well as a sore hip & groin, you know the ankle don't you, the base of all that balance & power. He could barely run the bases, but it sure didn't hurt his HR potential. If Beltran was so injured that he couldn't run or hit, he should have been on the DL. That's partly his call too. Why can't you just say that Delgado's protection helped Beltran? It's not hard to do.

Come again sometime, bsox, maybe I can teach you to back up your arguments using facts, statistics & research instead of using fallacious arguments. You sound like the toddler version of Rusch Limbaugh

[pinetarhand]

allabouthephills,

I'll explain to you why Beltran is a better baserunner. Pure speed plays into stealing bases, but as isn't the case with Pierre & Soriano, smart running makes you successful. Beltran has an outstanding 87.6% successful steal rate. He stole 28 bases for the Astros in '04 without being caught. Also, you can say that speed isn't everything, but Pujols knows he's limited, while Beltran isn't. Pujols probably pulls up a lot more than Beltran because he knows he can't make it. Beltran will & should go more often because he knows there's a good chance he will.

[nrmax88]

Baseballfan, ok, I never said anywhere Pujols wasnt better. Carlos Beltran is by far the best Cf in baseball, this I will argue. All I said is I would probably take Beltran to start a franchise because You can find a 1B closer to APs production easier then you can find a CF with GG defense that can put up MVP style years. You call me a homer, but all you do is talk about miguel cabrera, and how good the marlins pitching is. Cool dude, have fun with the 4th place fish this year. Im not even going to deny Im a homer, but where did I say anything about Pujols not being the best player. There is a couple guys i would take over Oujols to start a franchise. Doesnt mean he isnt the best. Dunc, if i have the first overall pick in my fantasy league, Im drafting Jose Reyes, no doubt about it. He is a better fantasy player then Pujols, and he will only get better this year.

[nrmax88]

Pujols is going to have chronic back issues within a couple of years. Dont ask me why people, a little birdy told me

[Aduncaroo]

Nrmax88,
I am confused. What fantasy league do you play in? Reyes over Pujols? The only real stat he is much better in is SB. Pujols will hit 30 more home runs and have 50 or more RBI. I don't know, I know that Reyes is good...but man. I guess I can see it because he plays SS...and while Reyes is very good, I just don't see the numbers stacking up. Are you saying this because you can put him at SS and draft a good 1st basemen as well? 60 to 70 SB is an awesome stat though, just in itself. Thats cool, I can't blame you.

[nrmax88]

In a fantasy game, Reyes may be more valuable. Pujols will of course win in average and hits and HRs and Rbis, but Reyes will also put up his share of HR and Rbi numbers, hes the best triples guy, best SB guy, scores runs seemingly at will, again no knock on Pujols, but you can grab guys like Delgado, probably Derek Lee coming off an injury, theres plenty of very good 1B you can get in later rouns. I actually drafted Ortiz in the 1st round last year, then Andruw, then Reyes, then Howard then Utley(dont ask how I got Utley and Howard so late.) Then some idiot drops D Lee the day before he came off the DL so i picked him up and traded him and Griffey for Beltran and Andruw Jones for Brett Myers and Garret Atkins. Good fantasy year. Reyes was ranked in the top 3 fantasy players on yahoo though I think. Soriano and Beltran were also up there. The power/ speed combois great in the league i was in. Pujols was ranked about 6th i think. Howard was up there along with Vernon Wells, but the top 3 players for the LEague were Soriano, then Reyes, then Beltran. Then the pure power hitters like Howard and Pujols and Morneau came in

[Aduncaroo]

Gotcha. Soriano is in for another good fantasy year. Wrigley is going to help him.

[nrmax88]

Yes he is. I wouldnt be at all surprised for him to hit 50 HRs. I dont know if Wrigley is always like this, but i keep recalling that Met game where they hit 2 grand slams in one inning, and they were both cheap ass hell. At shea those balls dont even reach the warning track but they just carried on out in Wrigley, and Soriano doesnt hit cheapies, no wall scrapers for him, he hits moon shots. I dont think 50 is out of the question at all for Sori. Imagine if he approaches 50/50 ? that would be crazy. I would say 50/40 is an option though