2008 Non-tender Candidates: MLB Rumors

Isn't Prior considered likely to be non-tendered?

Posted by: wood34 | August 30, 2007 at 07:05 AM

nvm, I didn't see his name on the list. I see it now

Posted by: wood34 | August 30, 2007 at 07:05 AM

I don't see any way Willis ends up non-tendered. This is the market where Adam Eatons and Jason Marquis of the world gets 8 million a year. The Marlins know that at least 15 teams would be glad to give something just to take Willis for 7 million even his ERA balloons to 7. He's left handed, he's young, and he has some talent, there isn't really anything to lose by offering him contract

Posted by: zs190 | August 30, 2007 at 07:28 AM

Mark Prior is interesting. I hear it would cost the Cubs 3.5 million to tender, which doesn't seem that much but most people seem inclined to think Cubs won't offer him. I guess he'll get a Wade Miller type of offer, 1.5 million a year, with incentives and possibly a club option for 2nd year.

Posted by: zs190 | August 30, 2007 at 07:38 AM

Seattle almost has to tender Horacio Ramirez a contract, given that they traded Soriano for him last off-season.

Posted by: mraver | August 30, 2007 at 08:24 AM

Maroth is an interesting decision for the cardinals. He would get 3Mil in arbitration but he has to prove that he is healthy or he will be non-tendered for sure.

The cardinals could use some SP options with Carp on the shelf but they are more likely to pick up Pinero's option than tender Maroth a contract.

Posted by: registereduser | August 30, 2007 at 08:27 AM

I was thinking about this and a guy like Josh Towers. THe Jays actually have two toughies in Reed Johnson. The pitching market is so bare that Towers might be tradeable, and in the non-AL East, he's nearly an average innings eater. For 3 milloin, I'd offer him arbitration and if I can't trade him, make him the 5th starter. (5.30 ERA in 180 IP is not bad for a 5th starter). Reed Johnson on the other hand, we wo'nt need him, I guess he could be a 4th OF but he'd be expensive, and his awful year means no trade value. I don't want to see him starting though.

I don't think Dontrelle should be on the list. THere's no way all teams pass on giving up something...by popularity alone they would still get a good prospect in return. He's also the face of the franchise so yes they would spend the 7 million on him despite the down year.

Also I have a feeling they want to keep Joe Crede since they moved Josh Fields to the OF...they really don't trust Sweeney and Anderson do they.

Last thing, the pattern I see on this list is one of complete mediocrity (not in a bad way). Doesn't look like there's another Ortiz on there.

Posted by: Guitar Hero | August 30, 2007 at 09:00 AM

The cubs can give prior a 20% pay cut, right? I think they can offer 2.8 million if what I heard is correct. Hendry isn't ready to give up on him. He hasn't had surgery until now...and they cleaned up a lot. I think Hendry will cough up 3 mil in a heartbeat to see how he comes back from surgery. If so, they wouldn't have to sign any other starters in the offseason, as their rotation is already set for at least 2 more years. They aren't going to have a lot of money to play with, and Prior is a cheap way to not have to deal with the SP market.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 09:00 AM

However, if the Cubs don't make the playoffs, Hendry is probably gone. So then who knows what the future of Prior will be....but I think its worth 3 mil....no matter who the gm is.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 09:02 AM

The 20% pay cut was done away with in the latest CBA. You can offer the player anything you want now...

however the arbitration judge would likely award Prior an amount in the 3mil range.

Posted by: registereduser | August 30, 2007 at 09:36 AM

Mark Prior is the next Chris Carpenter before the Tommy John surgery, mark my word.

Posted by: Bravesfanuc | August 30, 2007 at 09:46 AM

thats good info Registereduser....don't know how I hadn't heard that. I bet the judge would let them give him a small pay cut, at least 10%....based on the fact that in the last two years, he has pitched like 5 times, and I think his era was in the 7 yo 9 range.....

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 09:46 AM

juan rincon should get a big deal. once seen as one of the top setup men in the league, he still has his stuff.

Posted by: Meyer15 | August 30, 2007 at 10:06 AM

Now that Fields has moved to LF, Crede isn't likely to be non-tendered.

Maybe you should do another list of likely declinations of club options. You could start that list with Juan Uribe and Darin Erstad.

Posted by: Andrew Cabiness | August 30, 2007 at 10:16 AM

Cubs are a team that gave Glendon Rusch $3.25 mil/year. There is absolutely no question that Mark Prior and his rehab stories will be around for the next few years.

Posted by: Teetz | August 30, 2007 at 10:21 AM

I'd put my money into Ben Broussard and Morgan Ensberg. I understand why the Indians traded Broussard last year, but why the Mariners would trade for him and then not play him is crazy. He's an above-average hitter who plays a passable 1B and would make a great DH for all these teams who trot out scrubs. As for Ensberg, he's been too successful to not rebound somewhat. Hell, even his 2006 was decent if you're not caught up with batting average.

Posted by: Sky | August 30, 2007 at 10:52 AM

As a Giants fan I am very intrigued by a few names; Felipe Lopez, Morgan Ensberg, and Ben Broussard. Both Lopez and Ensberg could be solid replacements if the Giants not to resign Omar Vizquel and Pedro Feliz. Broussard could also be a solid platoon partner with Ryan Klesko (if he is resigned) or Dan Orteimer.

Posted by: hiphopjunkie | August 30, 2007 at 11:02 AM

Why wouldn't the Padres just keep Ensberg?

Posted by: Guitar Hero | August 30, 2007 at 11:10 AM

I'm guessing Ensberg would either want decent money to stay with the Padres (which they may not want to pay, considering he'd be a backup) or an opportunity for another team that will let him compete for a starting spot.

I'd like to see an NL team go for Donnelly if he becomes a FA. Could be Kevin Gregg part deux.

Joe Crede would be the best name if he is non-tendered, but it seems like he would have some trade value if he can show his back is reasonably healthy.

Lots of reasonable #5 pitchers for NL teams on that list. Also lots of bullpen fodder.

What happened to Kevin Mench? That guy looked like a potential monster, then totally fell off the map.

Felipe Lopez could be a nice pickup for any team. Seems like he should have some trade value also if he was re-upped. He has a decent track record, even with the poor AVG this year.

Posted by: mymrbig | August 30, 2007 at 11:22 AM

Prior would have to be willing to take an incentive laden contract, and given his confidence last off-season, despite still being injured, he might want the guaranteed contract in case his shoulder falls apart again. If that's the case, I think the Cubs should let him walk.
And I'm not buying that Hendry is gone if the Cubs fail to make the playoffs. With over a month to go in the season, the Cubs already have more wins than last year. That's a remarkable turnaround. I also think that the balls Hendry showed in the off-season (signing Lilly while in a hospital bed) gives him a bit more security. Hendry will have at least one more year with the Cubs as long as we don't lose every game the rest of the season.

Posted by: Cynic81 | August 30, 2007 at 11:31 AM

Ensberg/Broussard would make a great platoon at 1B.

The one who didn't start at first would provide power off the bench, Ensberg could be the backup 3B and could even play SS, and Broussard can also play the OF.

The two should make a combined $5-6M or so, and could provide an 850+ OPS if used correctly.

Broussard and Klesko are both LH hitters, so that doesn't make sense as a platoon, hiphopjunkie.

Posted by: bobo | August 30, 2007 at 11:55 AM

There is less than a 0.00% chance of Willis being non-tendered. Probably closer to negative 100%.

The Marlins WILL NOT just give up on the most durable pitcher in their injury-stricken rotation despite one bad season.

If Willis leaves Florida, it will be via trade, and the bounty will be a king's ransom.

Posted by: marlinmania | August 30, 2007 at 12:56 PM

mariners might try and trade sexson in the offseason for pitching and keep broussard

Posted by: kkingevan | August 30, 2007 at 01:23 PM

From what I've heard, Felipe Lopez isn't a likely non-tender candidate for the Nationals, mainly because they have no depth in AAA or AA in the middle infield.

Posted by: thehoagster07 | August 30, 2007 at 01:26 PM

Shoot, I think we could see Hendry fired even if they make the playoffs. The team that wins that division will be doing so not because they are good but because they aren't quite as bad as everyone else.

Currently the Cubs are on pace for a record maybe a few games above 500 and about 15 or so Wins over last year. Some may say the Wins over last year seems great, but they were flat out horrid in 06 and how much did Hendry spend to make that already expensive horrible team a 500ish club? I mean, they would currently be 4th in the East or 5th in the West ~ about 6.5G out in each ~ that doesn't say "good club" and its costing more than all but 2 of those 7 non-central clubs holding better records...

Honestly, even if the Cubs make it I think they should be looking to replace Hendry. You can't spend that much and hogtie the future that bad to "win now" while hanging your hat on a 500ish record even if you did somehow luck into October ball... When the new owner realizes that they have so much committed in the future just to field this mediocre club for the next couple years ~ well let's just say I wouldn't be happy about the situation and I can't imagine many would...

"the millions in 07 went to making the club not suck as bad as they did in 06 and we did make the playoffs..." ~ yeah, doesn't cut it for me...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 30, 2007 at 02:03 PM

No chance Willis is non-tendered. You do not dump the face of your franchise like that when you are struggling to maintain fan loyalty.

Also, if a player goes to arbitration they are guaranteed at a minimum their salary for the previous year.

Posted by: YouthofToday | August 30, 2007 at 02:05 PM

Dark,

If the Cubs stumble in the playoffs and make the World Series, you better believe that Hendry will be back. How many wins did the Cardinals have last year? They had a 90 payroll or so, maybe a little less. The Cubs have a 99ish million payroll this year and will wind up with a similar record...maybe better. To take this team from 66 wins to 85 and going deep into the postseason would certainly secure Hendry's job...at least for as long as Piniella is there.

Also...lets take a look at Hendry's offseason signings....

Ward - Great Signing

DeRosa - Great Signing
Lilly - Hate to break it to you, but he has been the BEST free agent pitcher this season.

Marquis - Based on his numbers...he is probably worth the 7 mil in this pitchers market

Soriano - not worth anything close to his avg. annual salary....but he IS worth 10 mil, which is his salary this season. This contract is bad...no doubt...but they did what they had to do.

Also, the Ramirez contract will be good, believe me. It already has been.

Like I said, if they miss the post season, he is gone. If they make it, and win at least one round, he remains for two years....just my opinion.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 02:51 PM

if you made a team out of these players it wouldnt end up too bad

Posted by: Barroid_Bonds | August 30, 2007 at 03:11 PM

At this point, the Cubs should just tender Prior an offer. I mean Prior will be coming off his FIRST surgery to repair his injury. What's the harm to see if he has anything left? I mean when healthy, Prior is a top of the rotation guy. Do the Cubs really want hand over Mark Prior to a team like....oh say......the Cardinals? I'd say tender him a contract and see if he has anything left. And plus, I like to see the Cubs go after Calero (if he is non-tender) and trade Weurtz.

Posted by: roterdrache | August 30, 2007 at 03:31 PM

I'm going to go with Donnelly. I haven't seen him pitch in a while, but I remember he had a good 2006 and seeing him early in 2007 the things I noticed were good velocity and a funky delivery. Given the year-to-year volatility of relief pitching, unless he's having arm troubles, if he gets non-tendered he'd be a good low risk type gamble that probably has as much of a chance to succeed as anyone from the higher end of the non-closer relief class of FA, especially if he catches on on the NL.

Then again, he probably has just as much of a chance of failing as anyone from the lower end. Its just the way relief pitching goes. I do remember noticing that he had all the tools though.

Posted by: MEddler | August 30, 2007 at 04:31 PM

Uhh, ok...

2005 87 Mil, 79-83 .488
2006 95 Mil, 66-96 .407
2007 100 Mil, 67-54 .511
Total 282 Mil, 212-233 .476

PLUS on the hook for...
98 Mil for 14 players in 08
91 Mil for 8 players in 09
80 Mil for 6 players in 10
54 Mil for 4 players in 11

But this offseason Hendry goes on a $300M spending spree and re-ups Z for another 91M for a total of about $390 Million spent (not counting other midsesson moves) to help win those possible 15 games over 06 and end up with this .500ish record.

That's one crapy GM who honestly shouldn't have been able to keep his job this year and any new owner would not ignore all of that despite what the Cubs do if they make the playoffs this year... Sure, if they get to the WS it might be a tougher decision, but it still should have never been there to start if they are about a .500ish club and you can't bank on winning the division again in 08 with a similar record.

Oh, and you said a 85ish win total ~ to meet that they would have to go 19-12 (.613) over the last 31 games. Well, so far this month they are 11-15 (.423) so that 85W looks unlikely... Its probably even unlikely they win the 83 they are on pace for now, and its very possible the division is won with a .500 or lower record on the year... Bad, bad GM, and if he was canned it would be one of the best things possible for Cubs fans.

But, maybe you like him...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 30, 2007 at 04:41 PM

Uhh, ok...

2005 87 Mil, 79-83 .488
2006 95 Mil, 66-96 .407
2007 100 Mil, 67-54 .511
Total 282 Mil, 212-233 .476

PLUS on the hook for...
98 Mil for 14 players in 08
91 Mil for 8 players in 09
80 Mil for 6 players in 10
54 Mil for 4 players in 11

But this offseason Hendry goes on a $300M spending spree and re-ups Z for another 91M for a total of about $390 Million spent (not counting other midsesson moves) to help win those possible 15 games over 06 and end up with this .500ish record.

That's one crapy GM who honestly shouldn't have been able to keep his job this year and any new owner would not ignore all of that despite what the Cubs do if they make the playoffs this year... Sure, if they get to the WS it might be a tougher decision, but it still should have never been there to start if they are about a .500ish club and you can't bank on winning the division again in 08 with a similar record.

Oh, and you said a 85ish win total ~ to meet that they would have to go 19-12 (.613) over the last 31 games. Well, so far this month they are 11-15 (.423) so that 85W looks unlikely... Its probably even unlikely they win the 83 they are on pace for now, and its very possible the division is won with a .500 or lower record on the year... Bad, bad GM, and if he was canned it would be one of the best things possible for Cubs fans.

But, maybe you like him...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 30, 2007 at 04:41 PM

So do you think Walt should have been canned because he only won 83 games last year with around a 90 mil payroll? No, because he WON THE WORLD SERIES....

300 million is a meaningless number. Its about the payroll, which is still under 100 million.

If they get to the world series....then what the hell would you complain about?

Its not that I "like" him....I don't really care either way if we win the freakin world series....

I'm not saying he is a good gm....he isn't....but I am saying that he had a WAY, WAY better off season than people like yourself give him credit for.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 06:02 PM

Bounty for Willis = definitely not a king's ransom

Posted by: Tim Dierkes | August 30, 2007 at 06:32 PM

It'll be a decent ransom though.

Posted by: Guitar Hero | August 30, 2007 at 06:55 PM

Mrs. O'Leary's cow would have nothing compared to what would happen to Chicago if the Cubs won the world series.

Posted by: Laputian | August 30, 2007 at 07:06 PM

"Lilly - Hate to break it to you, but he has been the BEST free agent pitcher this season."

Umm. Gil Meche doesn't get any consideration? None?

On a non-Cubs note, how about Clint Barmes? Maybe a non-tender? but I don't see much action for him.

Posted by: Darin | August 30, 2007 at 07:42 PM

Oh yeah, he did a bangup job turning that NL worst team into a .500ish club by only spending 400Million! What was I thinking questioning that...

"but he backloaded it so much that it only cost 100M this year..." oh ok, that makes a huge difference ~ its like he didn't even spend a penny huh... Granted the current owner probably loves him for that (which I imagine is the only reason he was allowed to do so), but the new owner will feel a tad different. If payroll isn't increased in 08 there is about 1M to sign 11 players this offseason ~ which doesn't work. That means either increase payroll just to keep this .500ish team together or start selling off guys just to stay under the current 100M.

I don't care if they do win the WS, Hendry has really screwed this clubs future up with these backloaded contracts and he has also now spent in the Top-Ten 3 straight years while the team is fighting for its first +500 finish over that span. He should be out of a job, don't know how you can argue otherwise...

& BTW, Lilly IS NOT the best SP signed this past offseason, a 4ish ERA in the NL-C isn't that great... It hasn't turned out to be a bad deal, but that doesn't make it the best.

I wouldn't call any of his offseason moves really good ~ he overpaid everyone making the guys who even do good not really worth it.

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 30, 2007 at 07:50 PM

I'm not sure of the rules, but if Willis came up with an injury that made him questionable for 08, I could definitely seeing him being non-tendered. That would at least put the chances above 0.00

Posted by: tmar | August 30, 2007 at 08:05 PM

The braves need a CF after andruw leaves and the only good ones on this list are Craig Monroe(if he can play CF), Reed Johnson(also if he can play CF), Emil Brown, and Cory Sullivan. I'd like to see 'em get Emil Brown and maybe he could get himself together there. Craig Monroe could also work for me but he needs to up his avg. a bit. I dont really want Reed Johnson to be our CF tho.... Lastly Cory Sullivan is a decent replacement, he is speedy and is a good avg. hitter (as far as we have seen). (notice that all of these guys are leadoff hitters except monroe of course)(emil borwn doesnt bat leadoff but he has the ability to)

Posted by: BraveSluggas | August 30, 2007 at 08:48 PM

FWIW, in 2010 the Cubs will have 75 million tied up in 5 players: Soriano, Derrek Lee, Ted Lilly, Carlos Zambrano and Aramis Ramirez. Just throwing it out there, but my fav team also has a ton of backload contracts...in 2010 its 65 million to 5 players as well: Vernon Wells, Roy Halladay, AJ Burnett, BJ Ryan and Lyle Overbay. You can tell the difference between an NL team and an AL team (hitting vs. pitching). However you guys are in a bigger market than us, so you'll be fine!@

Posted by: Guitar Hero | August 30, 2007 at 09:11 PM

""but he backloaded it so much that it only cost 100M this year..." "

Do you know what quotes are used for?? They are used to QUOTE a person, and that is NOT what I said.

It doesn't really matter what you think about Hendry....as a Cubs fan...he has put a competitive team on the field that is capable of getting in the playoffs and possibly doing damage there. That is what they promised us and they have delivered. Also, you said

"I wouldn't call any of his offseason moves really good ~ he overpaid everyone making the guys who even do good not really worth it."

Are you joking? You think DeRosa is overpaid? You think Ward is overpaid? Look at what the Cards did. They thought they could get better value than DeRosa and signed Kennedy.....how did that turn out for them?

Lilly is easily worth the money they are paying him...easily. Hell, even Marquis is earning his 7 mil annual salary...which ACTUALLY is only 5 mil this year.

Oh....and do we need to talk about backloading contracts????? that is the SMART thing to do if you are a GM. Because of ridiculous inflation and the market....it has PROVEN to be the best way to go. Everyone knows that...

And while you think he has handcuffed the team...which may or may not be true...they delivered on their promise to take a 66 win, last place team into contention. And all you can say is how terrible he is? Come on dude.

And stop saying how the "new owner" is going to be so mad about all those contracts....if that was the case....THEY PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BUY THE TEAM.

Why are there so many groups LINING UP to bid on the Cubs then????

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 10:44 PM

Lets all be honest...Hendry had what basically amounts to Monopoly money this offseason when he knew they were selling the team. But you can't argue with the signings, they have turned out well and taken a last place team into contention and are now up 2.5 games up on the brewers and 3 on the Cards.

Lets ask Cards fans if they cared that they only got 83 wins last season out of a "top ten" payroll?

How about it Cards fans....are any of you upset about that??? Didn't think so...

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 30, 2007 at 10:48 PM

Wow, you're obsessed with the Cards aren't ya?

Ok fine, whatever dude... Since it seems so important to you ~ Hendry did a great job of spending 95M to create a 66W team in 06 and an even better job in making that 66W team a .500ish team by spending a mere 400M more. He should not be worried about losing his job under any circumstances as he has been able to provide a stellar 3yr W% of 476 and currently has the team in a playoff hunt with a remarkable 68-64 record! If any team wants to know how to do things right, Hendry is obviously the man they need to talk to and I hope there will soon be a statue added in front of the stadium to honor the man who brought such difference makers as '4ish ERA' Lilly and 'he of 28 hits' Ward. Hendry has obviously changed the way teams will be run in the future and he should be signed to a new 10yr extention himself as soon as the new owner takes over. Oh and anyone who questions why they have had such a bad team despite such a high payroll should probably just be shot because it is just stupid to question the man who brought respect to Chicago baseball...

Long live Hendry!

... :/

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 31, 2007 at 12:12 AM

I think I have to disagree with the statement the Jays don't need Redd Johnson, I sapose your considering that either Stairs or Lind will take over. 1. Johnson is the teams leadoff hitter and the only one thats had success there. Second I would say that I think Adam Lind is the spare part in all this. If they jays Keep Johnson for 2-3 more seasons then we have Travis Snider comming up and I'd say closer to 2 then 3. I'd love to see them Package Lind and whatever for a good young SS.

Posted by: Dev0 | August 31, 2007 at 07:11 AM

Wow...STILL no new post on the Clay Rapada-Craig Monroe deal nor the Buck Coats to the Reds deal????????????????

Posted by: Teetz | August 31, 2007 at 08:08 AM

Or the conclusion to the Mike Maroth to the Cards trade.

The Cards sent former first rounder Chris Lambert to Detroit. It is pretty sad when a former first round pitcher being sent away for nothing in return makes Cards fans happy.

Lambert was selected 4 picks prior to Phil Hughes.

Posted by: easton714 | August 31, 2007 at 10:03 AM

Obsessed with the Cards??

Right.....

Well, I live in St. Louis, and work about two blocks from Busch....but still, really has nothing to do with it. The Cardinals took a 90 mil payroll team, or a "top 10 payroll" team to 83 wins...and won the world series. THAT is very relevant to my point...so either address that or don't ignore it and say I am "obsessed with the Cards".

Hendry is not a great GM...I have said that once, do I need to say it again? However, people like yourself need to back off when criticizing his off season, because he had a very good one. Thats the bottom line....

No matter how you are trying to get around it...Lilly WAS a very good signing, Ward WAS a very good signing, and DeRosa was a GREAT signing. You can't argue it....so get off the guys back. You can't keep saying 400 million when that number really has very little to do with anything. The number is the payroll, which is actually right around the same as the White Sox.....so go after Kenny Williams if you want...but stop getting on this site and saying how horrible Hendry and his 400 million are until you look at the facts, look at the deals he made, analyze them, and realize his off season was one of the better ones around baseball.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 31, 2007 at 10:21 AM

$400 million is a number the media uses to make the Cubs spending seem more than what it actually is.

It's a lot more impressive than saying "The Cubs and their $99 million dollar payroll!!!"

Sure Soriano and Lilly's contract will escalate...but so does the Cubs payroll.

2000: $62 Mil
2003: $79 Mil
2007: $99 Mil

By the end of Soriano's contract, one would reasonably assume Cubs payroll would top out at $130-140 million and that doesn't even include an anticipation of a new owner raising payroll for shits and giggles.

Posted by: Teetz | August 31, 2007 at 10:56 AM

Here is a list of pretty good free agent SP's in 06 and what they have done this year.

Ted Lilly - 13-7 3.89 in 28 games

Andy Pettitte - 12-7 3.70 in 28 games

Jason Marquis - 10-8 4.26 in 27 games

Greg Maddux - 10-9 3.78 in 28 games

Barry Zito - 9-11 4.59 in 27 games

Woody Williams - 8-13 5.04 in 28 games

Jeff Suppan - 8-11 4.78 in 28 games

Gil Meche - 7-11 3.85 in 28 games

David Wells - 6-8 5.46 in 23 games

Jason Schmidt - 1-4 6.31 in 6 games

Ted Lilly - 13-7 3.89 173.3 INN 146 K's 50 BBI ---- 10 Million in 2007
And Pettitte - 12-7 3.70 180.0 INN 120 K's 57 BBI ---- 16 Million in 2007

I would take Lily over Pettitte.... So he was the best free agent signing this year.

Posted by: Braves1029 | August 31, 2007 at 10:58 AM

Not to mention Lilly is giving them those numbers and he is only making 5 million this year.

I think I'll take Lilly any day. Meche is in the discussion, but he makes more for around the same numbers.

And if you are going to talk about how Lilly is in the NL Central, then you need to talk about him also being a fly ball pitcher in Wrigley and STILL being that good. Lets look at ERAs adjusted for the parks and it would further prove my point.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 31, 2007 at 03:00 PM

Teetz,
That 99M this year is a complete meaningless smokescreen unless the team plans a firesale at years end. That same exact 99M team will cost upwards of 110M next year and by 2010 will be in the 150-160M range. Remember its 98 to 14 in 08, 91 to 8 in 09 and 80 to 6 in 10!

Besides, you act like the club has even really increased payroll the last 3 years... Now a inflation rate of about 10-15M over 5 years is going to be about 50-60M in 3? Its the same reason so many people are going bankrupt in Cali right now ~ they bought houses on horrible balloon-rates to make today look a little better... Cheap today, extreme tomorrow just doesn't work...

Braves, you mistakenly listed those pitchers by Wins instead of something that shows their actual production...

And ADun, whatever... You just love to argue angainst anything, even if you agree with what the other person is saying...But you can't say anything that makes since and are constantly changing your points and topics to whatever you can pull out of your ass in your continued attempt to prove me wrong or whatever (BTW, Garland will never be 4.5+ish this year because he had a 3.19 in July huh?)... You also continue to point to the 6th freakin OFer, an average SP, ballooning salaries totaling a lower amount for 1 year and leading a horrible division as if it somehow makes a rather blah offseason somehow good. Listen, let the Royals or Rays go on a 400M spending spree and they would be able to provide atleast a .500ish record in much, much tougher divisions. So what if a couple guys produced like they have on average over their careers, it still doesn't make bad contracts good. If you think Hendry did a good job and shouldn't be fired, great ~ I hope your wish comes true and you get to keep the man who managed to take a winning club with promice and created the worst team in the NL only to bring it back to .500ish in 08 for a mer 400M in commitments.
~ all in the span of 5 years...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 31, 2007 at 03:09 PM

Oh an Adun, because you opened your mouth and again spilled a load of bull...

Lilly ERA vs *,LgAvg is about -.50
Meche ERA vs *LgAvg is about -1.00

Oh, and Gil can pitch more than 200IN in a year...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 31, 2007 at 03:12 PM

First of all, PLEASE fix your double posting problem. We have all endured it WAY too long...

2nd of all,

Lilly is 10th in the NL in Strikeouts

he is 6th in WHIP at a 1.17!!!

he has ALREADY pitched 173.1 innings this year, AND WE ARE IN AUGUST! Are you serious with that 200 IP comment?

As for Meche...

He only has 126 Srike outs, and has allowed 183 hits in 175.1 innings...

Lilly?153 hits in 173.1 innings

Lilly has 20 more strikeouts in 2 less innings pitched....

BAA - LIlly - .238
Meche - .271!!!

WHIP - Lilly 1.17
meche 1.33

How is that for stats that actually matter? oh, and Meche's contract is higher too....both this year and every year after it.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 31, 2007 at 03:59 PM

Oh, and Dark,

You are really going to bring up Garland (which I can admit, is just sucking lately) when you were the one who still tries to stand by the fact that you said:

Rolen was going to have a better offensive year than Ramirez????

And by the way, you still can't admit you were wrong about that. Until you are man enough to do that...I can't take you seriously.

And it looks like me, Teetz, and Braves have all pretty much found out that you are the one that "again spilled a load of bull."

(and thats how you ACTUALLY are supposed to use quotes by the way...)

Lilly was the better signing...and he was better than any other FA pitcher. Not to mention Marquis is worth the money they gave him, Ward exceeds what he is making, DeRosa exceeds the money he is making, and you are still telling me Hendry had a bad offseason??? Sorry, you are just plain wrong.

03 happened because of Prior and Woods years...and well, its just not the GMs fault that they didn't and won't ever do that again. You are putting that on Hendry, please....

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 31, 2007 at 04:07 PM

And lets remember that I am NOT saying Hendry is a good GM....I'm saying he isn't for the 3rd time....

But PLEASE stop being like the mindless media that keeps saying 300 million, or 400 million, because that number means absolutely NOTHING. What matters is their payroll, and its at a White Sox level.

Next year, more money is committed...so what? They also have guys that are making the league minimum like Marshall, Fontenot, Murton, Theriot, Rich Hill, Soto, Felix Pie, Gallagher, and many others that will make the team and heavilly contribute. Looks like a great mix of veterans and young guns to me.

Also, the Kendall trade has been AWESOME, whether you like it or not, and he got Oakland to pay for nearly all of that.

Without Hendry, as bad as he can be, (see juan pierre trade) we also would not have a guy named Derrek Lee or Aramis Ramirez, two cornerstones of our franchise. He also signed Ramirez to a below market deal and Zambrano as well.

So you are welcome to criticize his bad moves (Pierre and so forth), but DON'T tell me he is horrible because of last offseason, when he had arguably the BEST offseason of any GM in baseball. He had the most to work with, no doubt, but to make that many signings, and spend that kind of money, and the fact that he doesn't regret EVEN ONE of them is amazing. so get off his back dude....complain about something else....

Posted by: Aduncaroo | August 31, 2007 at 04:17 PM

"Lets look at ERAs adjusted for the parks and it would further prove my point"

Ok, please explain that... See, I look and see Lilly at about -.50 and Meche at about -1.00, but would love to hear how it further proves your point. Then you go on to give more stats that you don't adjust for the league like you just told us we should do. Typical Adun...

So anyway, just like every other argument you've tried to hold with me, the topic jumps around to anything you can pull out of your rear to try and prove a point. Wanna think about the Rolen thing, well how about you actually go back and find out why it started in the first place; me saying something to the extent of "Ramirez has seen his numbers drop 3 straight years and I would be concerned about future injury and breakdown" while you insisted he was primed for this huge breakout year and focus mainly on making it a Cub Vs Cards thing... Well, ARam is about to see his SLG drop for the 4th straight and he missed time to injury; guess I was horribly wrong there...

Just like you insisted Lee's 05 SLG wasn't an illusion, insisted that Soriano would be a 40ish/40ish guy, insisted the Braves should consider trading Salty for Marshall/Murton, insisted Garland was more than a 4.5ish guy because of 05 and his numbers against weak comp to that point (remember all the "but right now!" stuff?) were in the 3ish range, etc. You just have to argue against anything I say, I know that; its why that I don't understand.

But anyway, you don't want Hendry fired because the 400M he spent on Soriano/Lilly/Marques/Floyd/DeRosa/Wood/Miller/Blanco/Ramirez/Zambrano/& a 6th OFer has so far produced 3 guys who haven't made their signings seem that bad yet, great! I get that, so what's your point? Best moves this past offseason was to make a 500ish team by spending 400 though, see I can't agree with that at all but feel free to believe it if you like...

So what's your point? He shouldn't be fired? Ok, you feel that way! I see making a promicing team a 3yr-.476 $282M with $400M committed team as doing a bad job... We both know that he would (&should) have been fired after last year had the owner not been planning on selling the club, but you'll argue against it to anyway. But that's the thing, countless times you have proven you will argue anything you can think of to try and prove me wrong or whatever, so why do we have to keep going through it? Why don't you just leave me alone rather than follow my posts trying to pick holes in anything I say; I mean almost all of what I have set out to say has afterall come true... But I'll be waiting for your next runaround arguement as you somehow try to prove that Hendry would never be fired from his job or whatever you try to change the topic to.

Oh, and I have no control over the double posts; its not my problem and rather TrueTypes. But feel free to bitch about it, and maybe you can keep saying it enough to make it a topic itself as you continue to find anything to say I'm wrong about or whatever. Would be great for you to do as I have asked and just not reply to me, but I know that's too much for you to handle...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | August 31, 2007 at 05:33 PM

Once again, another novel times 2 from darkstar....

So you basically choose to ignore the statistics and complain and moan about how you don't like me....great...thats a great way to make your point.

And AGAIN...you STILL can't say that you were wrong, and that you would know Ramirez is currently the better offensive player than Rolen.

Oh, and again you use quotes to say something that you haven't said....QUOTES ARE USED TO QUOTE SOMETHING, NOT SUMMARIZE WHAT YOU OR SOMEONE ELSE SAID IN ABOUT 80 POSTS! At some point you need to learn to use them, because I am tired of you quoting things that never were said.

Anyway, if you want to get into the whole Ramirez vs. Rolen thing....well, I don't, so never mind. Here, I'll use quotes your way.

You said "Rolen is the better offensive player, and he will be a better hitter and put up better numbers than Ramirez in 07."

I said "Ramirez is superior to Rolen offensively and I would MUCH rather have him in 07 than Rolen."

Rolen is now done for the year after putting up numbers that left MUCH to be desired.

Ramirez is STILL hitting around .310 with a great OBP, and OPS around .900, and playing what many are calling gold glove defense at 3rd. That last part is arguable....for sure, but has little to do with our little disagreement.

The fact is, freakin Tony LaRussa would rather have Ramirez than Rolen this year, as would pretty much every other person in the world. Please stop acting like you ever had something that could be construed as a valid argument that Rolen is a better offensive player than Ramirez. It makes you sound dumb, and you aren't, so dude, stop trying.

As for Henry, I never said he should never be fired, ever. All I ever said was that if they make the playoffs than they will think about letting him stay around until Lou's tenure is up. If they do any damage in the playoffs than they will probably do so. And the fact is that he had a very, very good off season. Please stop acting like he didn't. He has done a lot wrong (like HATING OBP), but he has done some very good things too, like trading NOTHING for Aramis Ramirez, or Choi for Derrek Lee, and so on...

No one knows what will happen, and really, I don't even care that much. Whoever buys the Cubs will decide and it could go either way. Like I said, I don't really care. But its really dumb to keep ranting about 300 million, or 400 million (which it really is because Z will probably exercise his option, which would put it at 410). But the fact is, if you actually analyze what really goes on as a GM, that number is pretty much meaningless. The number to pay attention to is PAYROLL, and its at a very reasonable 100 mil, like I said, right there with the white sox. So, when is the last time you were ranting about Kenny williams? He took a world series team to the crapper and is in last place behind the royals....know why people aren't wanting him gone right now??? He won...and no one gives a sh*t because they have freakin rings. Multiply that times 10 for the GM and Manager that bring a ring to the North Side. You must not have any clue what Chicago is like in terms of Cubs fans. If someone gets them that ring, statues will probably be built, and should be, and pretty much everything Hendry has ever done wrong will be forgotten. If the next GM does it, they would get the same treatment. Its not about the GM, its about WINNING. If the fanchise sucks for 10 years after they got a ring....IT DOESN'T MATTER.

There, maybe you at least know a little bit more about Cubs fans....because we are still getting no where else when you believe Rolen is a superior offensive player than Ramirez. At least I can say Garland has proven me wrong...you apparently don't have that ability.

Oh...by the way, look at Lee's slugging again for me...because its still pretty freakin good. Then go back and see what I said he would slug....its not much different. Lee will never be 05 Lee again, and I said that before this season ever started, but you tried to tell me he was a .270 hitter...and he has proven you wrong...as have I.

About this thing with you and I....I don't care dude...its not about you. But some of the things you say are just ignorant....like getting on the site and ranting again about how terrible the Cubs are and what a crappy offseason they had, and 400 million dollars, and .500ish team (which you keep saying, but thats what the WORLD CHAMPS were last year...)it just gets old. Find something else to complain about, or at least admit when you are wrong about something instead of acting like you know everything, and when proven wrong, continuing to say stupid things to try and dig yourself out of a hole that was too deep months ago.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 01, 2007 at 12:10 AM

Ahh, figured...

A) I say 'just don't reply' and you respond with that... Classic...

B) I haven't said a single freakin thing about the Cubs since they singed Soriano; well except for the thread in which I said Marshall isn't worth anywhere near Salty, but that's it. So where you got that complex from is beyond me...

C) you obviously don't have a very good memory. I have been saying that KW is running that ship into the ground the entire month because of his not wanting to trade anyone and inability to get out of "compete now" mode... You argued with me on it too, now you don't remember?

D) like I said, go find the Ramirez post... It started because I said something to the effect of "Ramirez has watched his numbers drop 3 straight years and I would be worried for an injury". You of course made this 'well he's better than Rolen' to which me and your friend both agreed we would feel more comfortable with Scott going forward. Rolen didn't do well this year, I know that, but Ramirez still did what I said he would do ~ you know, the opposite of the "huge breakout year" you predicted... (and yes, quotes are correct there)

E) WTF anyway? Ok, so I say "even if they make the playoffs Hendry could be fired" and your argument against me is "if they make the playoffs than they will *think* about letting him stay". So your beef with me was that I said "could be fired" and you counter with what amounts to 'could be, but they might think about letting him stay'? What??? Why say a damn word if you are trying to say the same thing as me you jackass?

F) half the things you are bitching about me saying I never even said! Its like you are arguing against yourself and things that people complaing about the Cubs might say. WTF?

G) dude, why do you continue to act like Hendry didn't spend 400M to buy THIS TEAM! Under your logic I guess I can put 1K down on a car and pay 1K a month for 5 years while continuing to claim that I bought it for a mer 1 thousand, right? Would he have been able to sign any of the players he did to a 1yr deal for what they are making in 07 alone, or did infact have to say he would give them however many millions over X amount of years while manipulating the salary paid yearly to make it under 100M for the first year? If they keep this exact same club together for 08 it will cost much more than 100M so not sure why you still claim 'it only costs 100M and he didn't really spend 400M'...

H) I don't have to use quotes properly, that would just be a plus. Fact is I type fast and the " is much easier to hit than the ' on my phone ~ so sorry you can't seem to handle that and much try to make it its own topic in your continued haressment...

So please, just leave me the F* alone! It really isn't about 'me and you', its about 'you and you' as you continue to badger me to prove something (and God know what) to yourself. Like I said, you don't even care what you are arguing as long as you are arguing against me. I say don't post to me and you post to me complaining about having to read my posts or better yet post to me! Don't you get it, just leave me alone to start and things are fine, but you jumping on me when I said the same freakin thing you claim you were saying is insane! You just jump anytime I say anything, try to claim I said more than I actually did and twist anything you can think of or switch the topic to anything you can bring up to continue something which should have never started in the first place! Like I have said 1K times before, what the F do you want from me??? Just leave me alone!!!

Man, your like some horrible obsessed stalker who just can't let me post without moaning and groaning ~ even when we say the same damn thing...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 01, 2007 at 01:44 AM

in that messed up head of yours, do you really believe what you just said?

If you don't want me to reply, DONT REPLY TO MINE. Its pretty easy, but you insist on having the last word, and can't just let it go if thats what you want so bad.

I don't care what is easier on your phone. If you quote something, it should be something that someone already said.

I was thinking Ramirez would have the same kind of year that he has been having, and it would be better than Rolen offensively.

Oh, by the way, my buddy was factoring in defense. You took it about 10 steps further and said defense aside, you would still rather have Rolen.

So lets try this again...can you do it?

Answer this, yes or no, and nothing else. Would you still rather have Rolen than Ramirez offensively this season?

Thats what I thought, for the 100th time, you can't do it.

Now how about you don't reply? If I'm a stalker, than what does that make you?

By the way, you said Henry should be fired even if they win a world series...which IS NOT saying he might be fired if they don't make the playoffs.

We aren't saying the same thing, you still don't get it.

Anyway, don't reply, because I don't want to hear it. You are still to hard headed to hear anyone but yourself.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 01, 2007 at 11:51 AM

Post 1: "Honestly, even if the Cubs make it (to the playoffs) I think they should be looking to replace Hendry."

reply, 'what about the Cards, how many wins did the Cards have last year, the Cards spent like 90M, this team will win more then them, Hendry did a GREAT job this offseason'

Post 2: "Sure, if they get to the WS it might be a tougher decision, but it still should have never been there to start if they are about a .500ish club and you can't bank on winning the division again in 08 with a similar record"

reply: 'so what about the Cards, Hendry only spent 100M, you don't give him credit for a good offseason'

Post 3: "I don't care if they do win the WS, Hendry has really screwed this clubs future up... (For its first .500ish finish in 3 years)"

reply: '*bitching about quotes and me paraphrasing what you said in them*, Hendry put a competitive team on the field, he didn't overpay people, look at the Cards, balooning contracts are the smart thing to do, they are in contention, I shouldn't say anything bad about Hendry'

Reply pt2: 'they are a last place team in contention, what about the Cards, where are the Cards fans, Cards, Cards, Cards'

Post 4: "you're obsessed with the Cards aren't you"
"Ok fine, whatever dude... Since it seems so important to you ~ Hendry did a great job of spending 95M to create a 66W team in 06 and an even better job in making that 66W team a .500ish team by spending a mere 400M more."

Reply: 'I'm not obsessed with the Cards, what about the Cards, Hendry isn't good but you shouldnt complain about him, he only spent 100M this year, what about the ChiSox, Hendry had a great offseason'

Reply 2: 'Lilly is the best, adjust his ERA and its much lower than Meche who makes a little more, it proves my point"

Post 5: If you think Hendry did a good job and shouldn't be fired, great ~ I hope your wish comes true and you get to keep the man who managed to take a winning club with promice and created the worst team in the NL only to bring it back to .500ish in 08 for a mer 400M in commitments.~ all in the span of 5 years."

Post 6 : "Lilly ERA vs *,LgAvg is about -.50Meche ERA vs *LgAvg is about -1.00"

Reply: 'don't DBL post, Meche has given up 30 more hits and has 20 less SO, those really matter'

Reply 2: 'you can't say you're wrong, everyone thinks you're wrong... *something about quotes again...* Hendry did a great job, Hendry just had bad luck and its not his fault the team sucked'

Reply 3: 'Hendry is not a good GM, Hendry did a good job, spending 400M is meaningless, what about the ChiSox, who cares about next year, Hendry did a great job, Hendry is bad, Hendry did a great job, you can say he's bad, don't say he's done a bad job, he was the best GM this offseason, Hendry doesn't regret any recent contract, don't complain about him'

Post 7: "See, I look and see Lilly at about -.50 and Meche at about -1.00, but would love to hear how it further proves your point. Then you go on to give more stats that you don't adjust for the league like you just told us we should do"
"So what's your point? He shouldn't be fired? Ok, you feel that way! I see making a promicing team a 3yr-.476 $282M with $400M committed team as doing a bad job..."

Reply: 'you post too much, so you want to ignore (select unadjusted) stats, you can't say you are wrong, *a paragraph about quotes*, *a couple paragraphs about me being wrong and quotes*, I never said he shouldn't be fired, IF they make the playoffs they MIGHT keep him, don't act like he had a bad offseason, he did a bunch wrong, he did a bunch right, but don't say he spent 400M, 400M is meaningless, payroll is only 100M, what about the ChiSox, why don't you talk about the ChiSox, people don't want KW fired from the ChiSox, you know nothing about Chicago, why do you always complain about the Cubs, it doesn't matter if the Cubs suck for the next 10 years as long as they win this years WS, you say ignorant things like ranting about the Cubs all the time, what about the Cards, just say your wrong, don't complain about Hendry, just say your wrong'

Post 8: "WTF anyway? Ok, so I say "even if they make the playoffs Hendry could be fired" and your argument against me is "if they make the playoffs than they will *think* about letting him stay". So your beef with me was that I said "could be fired" and you counter with what amounts to 'could be, but they might think about letting him stay'? What???"
"Man, your like some horrible obsessed stalker who just can't let me post without moaning and groaning ~ even when we say the same damn thing.."

Reply: "you're messed up, you don't want me to reply then don't reply to me, you just have to have the last word, *something about quotes again*, I said Ramirez would do exactly what he is doing (and a couple other wrong statements about that conversation which I never wanted to have in the first place but you kept asking questions so it went on and on as I kept explaining the same thing over and over), say you're wrong, say you're wrong, say you're wrong, you said hendry should be fired even if they win the WS (which I actually never said but ok...) which isn't what I'm saying when I said he MIGHT not be fired IF they make the playoffs, I don't care about anything you say, just don't reply'

... :/

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 01, 2007 at 02:05 PM

"you said hendry should be fired even if they win the WS (which I actually never said but ok...)"

Have a look...

"I don't care if they do win the WS, Hendry has really screwed this clubs future up with these backloaded contracts and he has also now spent in the Top-Ten 3 straight years while the team is fighting for its first +500 finish over that span. He should be out of a job, don't know how you can argue otherwise..."

Oh, and by the way, according to baseball prospectus...

VORP:

Lilly 36
Meche 34.5

Looks like the experts agree with me as well. Nice...

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 01, 2007 at 04:00 PM

"VORP: Lilly 36, Meche 34.5
Looks like the experts agree with me as well. Nice..."

Want to know the problem there? Pitchers VORP is based off Runs and not EarnedRuns. I don't understand why they would do this since it makes no sense what-so-ever ~ its supposidly set up to even the playing field while it completly ignores the situation the Pitcher was in. That contradicts itself, but whatever, I guess they just assume it should be close... So, when you look at Pit-VORP though you need to also look at the D behind him or you could be ignoring the player who gave up a fewer amount of runs within the proper amount of outs.

Here, I'll show you what I mean...
Meche 182 IP, 78 ER, 87 R
Lilly 173.3 IP, 75 ER, 78 R
Now, as you can see Meche has the disadvantage of 9 UER compared to 3 UER for Lilly. Factored per IP:
Meche 1 UER per 20IP ~ 1R/3-4G
Lilly 1 UER per 58IP ~ 1R/9-10G

Now, maybe you feel as though the SP is responceble for the D behind him and should be expected to get more that 3 outs due to bad fielding, I see that as something I can't expect them to control though and see ERA (the actual amount of runs within 3 outs per IP) as a little better gauge if a pitcher experenced an unusualy high or low amount of UER.

So, you did come up with a good little number there, but I still put more value into ERA vs *LgERA because I would expect the UER to pretty much switch if the players switched teams.

And remember:
Lilly -.50ish under *LgERA
Meche -1.00ish under *LgERA
Like I said, maybe you feel otherwise. But if I'm a GM I'm wondering how many ER he gave up, not how many R crossed the plate because of his previous teams ERR total and if its an unusualy low amount of UERs I would discredit his VORP some (or reversed if high amount of UER of course)

"I don't care if they do win the WS, Hendry has really screwed this clubs future up with these backloaded contracts and he has also now spent in the Top-Ten 3 straight years while the team is fighting for its first +500 finish over that span. He should be out of a job, don't know how you can argue otherwise..."

Uhh, I need to explain that now?

Ok:
"I don't care if they do win the WS"
~ no matter what they do IF they make the postseason (since that was so important to you) it doesn't change the fact that ~
"Hendry has really screwed this clubs future up with these backloaded contracts"
~ & we are talking extreme ballon rate contracts ~
"he has also now spent in the Top-Ten 3 straight years while the team is fighting for its first +500 finish over that span."
~ because that is what HAS happened and he HAS done. He mortaged the future with multiple extreme contracts to cover up his past mistakes while coming up with a team that is still only playing .500ish baseball; which would normally be out of a playoff race ~
"He should be out of a job"
~ he should have been fired after the last 2 horrible years, and is lucky he still has a job now. ~
" don't know how you can argue otherwise..."
~ don't know how you can argue how he deserved to keep his job after last year" ~

Which all goes back to my initial sentence of ~
"Honestly, even if the Cubs make it (to the playoffs) I think they should be looking to replace Hendry."

Now, since you are acting like THAT was the statement you took offense with then I need to ask why it even got to that point ~ I mean that came in my feakin 3rd post! Why would you argue with post 1 & 2 if its only post 3 you don't agree with? Now do you see what I mean about your run-around arguments?

See, I look at your 1st and 2nd replies being nothing more than you saying anything you can think of to argue with me no matter what I said, and your recently stated theory of why you are arguing with me to be an excuse you have come up with to try and explain yourself. Like I said, it has little to do with me&you and everything to do with you you see a post of mine, argue against it and try to come up with your reasons why afterward. Doesn't matter what I say (shoot I said the same thing as you're claiming you were saying), you just don't want me to say it...

BTW, why aren't you saying anything to all the people over on the Trax thead saying things like "typical stupid Cubs", "who cares, they suck", etc? You trying to prove its only me you will jump on when you perceive I bash the Cubs (or even the ChiSox but you seem to of forgotten that since you tried to use that as a some kind of twisted point against me in this thread) while ignoring those who are blatantly doing so.

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 01, 2007 at 06:24 PM

Oh good, I got back before you responded, and since I know you will...

Anyway, if you must respond DON'T respond about Ted Lilly! See, I could give a rats@ss about Lilly and wheither you think he was some kind of brilliant signing on a 4/40 deal. I don't care if Hendry signed Nolan Ryan at a slightly higher rate then he should have gotten, it doesn't mean he is somehow amazing because he signed a pitcher doing about what he always has done at a contract a little higher/longer than he should have gotten. The only reason he was ever talked about is because its another of your twisted runaround arguments that has little to nothing to do with the topic. Its the same reason my "I would be worried about Ramirez since he has had 3 straight years of declining numbers" somehow got turned into your continued Cards compairison obsession and your asking over and over with each and every post for days "just answer, who would you rather have Rolen or Ramirez"...

So just remember, the conversation started because I said "Hendry could probably be fired even if they do make the playoffs" and that was said because of his taking a winning club and making it a NL worst within 2 years even though he was pumping money into like crazy AND he committed 400M more just to get said club back to a .500ish team (which is currently competitng because of dumb luck but would be atleast like 5G out in any normal division around baseball).

See, that's the actual topic, the one that you initially decided you disagreed with and attempted to try and change into such things as "what about Lilly, look at Lilly vs Meche", "you don't know how to use quotes", "what about the Cards", "you have double posts" and so many other off topic things...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 01, 2007 at 07:24 PM

wow u people dont have lives

Posted by: Meyer15 | September 02, 2007 at 12:31 PM

Nah Meyer, that's the beauty of the net on phones. All of a sudden those horrible times waiting for car repairs, shopping with the GF, etc become a moment to type up a post.

I figure a good chunk of posters are like that by now, and its great because it gives us the chance to hear more peoples input as it can come at any time. Now on a 15min break at work you can add a post while you smoke rather than just gazing at the clouds wishing you weren't there...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 02, 2007 at 01:38 PM

Dark...I just don't have the energy. If you think Lilly and the other signings were bad....I guess thats your opinion. Ward is now hitting like .345 or something like that...

Anyway, they have all been good signings. I have never, I repeat never said that Hendry is a good GM. I just think that you are kind of being a little bit ignorant and going with all the media ranting about 300 million and so on....but whatever...I just don't have the energy for this.

By the way, if you don't like VORP...well, again, I guess thats your opinion. But to everyone else it seems to be a pretty damn good system.

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 04, 2007 at 10:55 PM

Yada yada yada, Lilly, yada yada yada, 6th OFer, yada yada yada, didn't really spend 300M, yada yada yada...

Ok, so that didn't address the topic and still hasn't explained why you would argue against my saying the same freakin thing you did...

Oh and didn't say I don't like VORP, said I give it less credit if a pitcher had a strangely high/low UER total. But like you said, *LgERA only further proves your point ~ err, right?

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 05, 2007 at 10:07 AM

Actually, his last outing further proves my point. and the difference in years of contract and money in the contract further proves my point...Lilly was the best FA pitcher signing of the offseason....

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 06, 2007 at 09:33 AM

Uhh, ok... And WTF does that have to do with the actual topic anyway? Remember, topic is:
"Shoot, I think we could see Hendry fired even if they make the playoffs."

So does Lilly putting up rather average Lilly numbers and your claiming him the best FA starter mean hendry is somehow never going to be fired??? WTF is your problem where that's like the only thing you can say even though it doesn't really mean a damn thing and has almost nothing to do with the actual conversation! Oh, well you also like to talk about that 6th OFer with like 30 guys too... Wow...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 06, 2007 at 05:47 PM

What are you talking about? What 6th outfielder? I don't even understand you anymore...

Lilly has a lot to do with the very good off season that Hendry had this year. By the way, Lilly is putting up much better than "average lilly numbers".

Didn't you say "Oh, and Gil can pitch more than 200IN in a year..."

He is at 180 right now....

Ok, so if you want to go back to the original subject, I said he would be fired if they didn't make the playoffs, and possibly if they did and didn't go anywhere. You said he should be fired even if they win the world series....and I disagreed with that. All I have ever been trying to tell you is that if the Cubs win, (and I'm not saying they are going to) than everyone that has anything to do with this team is going to be revered for years and years. (Except maybe Jaque...and they might even love that guy!)

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 07, 2007 at 12:21 PM

"So does Lilly putting up rather average Lilly numbers and your claiming him the best FA starter mean hendry is somehow never going to be fired???"

When the HELL did I say he is never going to be fired?? I have said now, this is the 4th time, that he isn't even a good GM. All I have ever said was if they won this year, or made the WS, he will probably stick around as long as Lou does. That does NOT EVER mean I said he would never be fired.

You need to figure out what I actually did say at some point...

Wow...

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 07, 2007 at 12:30 PM

oh...and why do you keep responding?? I thought if I replied I was a "stalker"....so what does that make you??

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 07, 2007 at 12:30 PM

You just now ~ "Ok, so if you want to go back to the original subject, I said he would be fired if they didn't make the playoffs, and possibly if they did and didn't go anywhere. You said he should be fired even if they win the world series....and I disagreed with that."

Uhh, actually I said:
"Shoot, I think we could see Hendry fired even if they make the playoffs" & "Honestly, even if the Cubs make it (to the playoffs) I think they should be looking to replace Hendry"
PLUS I never said 'fired if they win the WS' ~ we just went over that like 3 posts ago...

But anyway, so what was your problem with that again? Oh that's right, I said it...

Oh and:
04 4.06 off 4.87 *LgERA
05 bad off year
06 4.31 off 4.70 *LgERA
I would expect a 3.80-4.00 for Lilly in Chi. Plus if he makes his normal 32 starts he will miss the 200IN mark ~ although he may get 33 this year

"6th OFer" is D.Ward ~ you know the other name you mention in each thread for some reason...

Lastly, why am I responding? Trying to figure out WTF prompts you to dispute everything I say no matter what it is so maybe I don't have to do this with each and every one of my posts going forward. So far who knows though, you can't stay on topic long enough for me to figure it out... I do know you will accuse me of things I don't even do (bash Cubs and ignore ChiSox ~ to which I do the opposite), revert to 'what about the Cards' as your main foundation for an argument unless I ignore that topic when you bring it up and use everyone elses points to death as though its what you said to begin with... See, I know HOW you argue with me, just not WHY...

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 07, 2007 at 03:29 PM

Lets look again....

"I don't care if they do win the WS, Hendry has really screwed this clubs future up with these backloaded contracts and he has also now spent in the Top-Ten 3 straight years while the team is fighting for its first +500 finish over that span. He should be out of a job, don't know how you can argue otherwise..."

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 08, 2007 at 10:08 AM

Quickly, about Lilly...

His WHIP is the best its ever been

His BB\K ratio is better than its ever been

He has a chance to pitch more innings than he ever has

His BAA is better than its ever been

I'm not saying he is having this blow up year, because I guess we agree that the move to the NL helped....but its still a good year for Lilly.

Mark DeRosa has played more outfield than Ward, and I have been mentioning him...so its pretty easy to see why I didn't know what you were talking about. Wards role on this team is a great left handed bat off the bench and occasionally spell D Lee at first and someone in right. He was a very good signing....a VERY good one.

I accuse you of things you don't do?? Lets take a look at how many times you have misquoted me just in this conversation...

You are not "bashing the Cubs" right now...but you are bashing Hendry, which can be understandable because he isn't a great GM. However, don't do it using the last offseason and using "300 million" or "400 million" because its uneducated baseball fans that make those points. Instead, if you want to bash him, talk about the Pierre trade....or something to that effect.

I can't stand it when the media and other bash him saying "300 million" or whatever because its all monopoly money to him, and it was GREAT that he spent it. Had he not, he would have been an even bigger idiot. It was never his money to begin with...so why not? And on top of that, if you look at the signings, he had a very good offseason. The length isn't great of some of them, but then again, he doesn't really have to worry about it. (Actually, its just Sori's thats way too long...)

So thats the WHY if you want to know...I just figured someone with some baseball knowledge wouldn't keep throwing those lame terms around when bashing Hendry. You can do better than that Dark....

Posted by: Aduncaroo | September 08, 2007 at 10:26 AM

Quick on Lilly:
And I would expect all those things to be true since he is facing pitchers now... As far as Innings, yeah if he pitches more games than ever.

Quickly on Ward:
Shoot, forgot DeRosa was playing in the OF too. I guess that makes Ward a 7th OFer ~ behind AlSo, Floyd, Jones, Murton, Pie, Monroe and DeRosa... Oops, I guess 8th OFer even. Yeah, hard to brag about signing your 8th OFer no matter what he does or how much it cost, but he has done well with his 30ish Hits...

Quickly on 400M:
It was committed though, and was done just to make a horrible club a 500ish one ~ so huh??? I can't speak the truth because you don't like to hear it??? And you don't think committing 400M should result in more than a 500ish club???

I think its the most any GM has ever committed in one offseason ~ its extreme ~ and most fans of clubs bitch when their GM makes questionable signings totaling like 80M combined... Besides, that was Teetz line, not yours... If you rather, I guess I could say "spent 100M in 07, 100M on 3/5 a team for 08, 90M for 8/25 in 09 and 80M for 6/25 in 2010, plus more, just to win about 15G more in 08 and make a horrible team 500ish" but that's so long and "400M" is so much easier. Plus "Monopoly money" or not to him ~ its not to the club as they will need to pay it ~ and can you figure out a way to field a club without increasing payroll with that much committed the next 3+ years? I bet ya can't, well unless you sell off players... So what Hendry did was make sure the new owner either increases payroll if he wants to keep this 500ish club together or go into GarageSale mode.

Quickly on things I didn't say:
Shoot, you responded to that right after again throwing a quote which doesn't say what you accuse me of saying! WTF?

Ok, in responce to "fired if WS" I think you should read my posts again because your obviously not grasping it. You can also look at my *September 01, 2007 at 06:24 PM* post where I told you sentence by sentence what it means. Oh, and it was in THE THIRD POST anyway, why again did it even get to that point??? That's what I want answered ~ that will tell me WHY!

And your on the quotes thing again? Oh brother... Ok, well again so sorry if you were paraphrased in quotes, it was just easier than looking up the way you said it and as I said " is easier than ' on my phone. How can it offend you so badly though, you act as though they were used to attack. Its become like your fallback 'well you were wrong for...' arguement now...

Anyway, all of that was actually pretty offtopic though, and I still have no idea why you would question my first post. You claim you were saying the same damn thing, and sure maybe I didn't break down every last sentence into every detail possible but I don't know what is wrong with 'took a winning club, made it horrible and mortaged the future just to bring it back to 500ish' or however I said it ~ that's all true (is it not?) and me saying he *"could be fired even if they make the playoffs"* and *"I think he should be"* is wrong how? Why must that be met with 'well what about the Cards' and you defending Hendry to death if you feel the same freakin way??? THAT is where there is a problem, that is why I say you will just argue anything I say no matter what and that is the "WHY" I want answered. Everything else is just stupid changing the topic, I want to know WHY you would argue with my first post when you said the same damn thing!!!

Posted by: darkstar1661 | September 08, 2007 at 12:44 PM