Red Sox Leading For Santana?

What's stopping Theo from signing off on this?
We keep Bucholz, we keep Ellsbury - count me in,
Now, would Theo do Lugo and Bucholz to NYM for Jose Reyes & a prospect?

@march

Who cares if Theo would... that offer would never be on the table. Omar isn't that dumb.

Oh god... hello, $140m-plus contract. That's what it's going to take to sign Santana - at least 7 years, more than $126m (Zito's contract).

IF the Sox could do this deal and somehow convince Santana to accept a 5 year deal, I'd be okay with it. But I don't are how good he is, giving a SP - ANY SP - 7 years is just stupid.

Funny how this joke of a deal isn't questioned at all by the usual suspects.

If this is the leading deal, then the Yankees are offering Kennedy and Melky alone.

now a trade of santana to the angels for 3b brandon wood, 2b howie kendrick, of reggie willits and a pitching prospect looks like a good trade now, for the twins it would fill all the remaining holes, plus remember that nathan is still availible after santana

jarvis14, I think maybe they're thinking of moving Harris to 3B? And Pridie's numbers in the minors were pretty average until the second half of 2007; maybe they think he needs another year in the minors. Young's probably going to be LF, not CF. And Crisp can play LF too if necessary.

Andrew, I don't think this is a joke offer. Lester's a very strong pitcher who's ML-ready; Lowrie had 68 XBh in only 497 AB last year, and projects to a 25-30 HR SS with above-average defense; Masterson's a year or two away from the majors but will probably be a solid #3 or #4; and Crisp is a fairly cheap major league CF with spectacular defense, who's at least 2 years younger than all the major CF free agents. that's quite a haul.

meta, it's quite a haul of players who will be average. The Yankees can very, very easily top that with a Hughes/Cabrera/Horne package, and it probably wouldn't even take that much. Kennedy/Cabrera/Horne/Melancon tops it easily as well.

Don't get your hopes up.

Good point Andrew. I'd rather have Melky over Coco and rather would have Hughes over Lester. What is the big deal about Lester?? Who does he even compare to? When I've seen him pitch, hes Ted Lilly at best, and I'm not talking about NL ted lilly, im talkin AL Ted Lilly. So that makes him a .500 pitcher and 4.5o era pitcher, for the games top pitcher.... I just dont see whats so great about him from his big league numbers.

Kennedy, Cabrera, Horne, and Melancon top that? Are you kidding? Kennedy isn't any more valuable than Lester. Cabrera isn't any more valuable than Crisp. Comparing Horne to Lowrie is a joke. Melancon is a relief pitching prospect while Masterson is a starter... and closer to the majors.

What, you mean Boston's 4th OF, #5 starter, and two no-name prospects isn't a huge haul? Sounds awesome to me!

I agree, if the RedSox can get Johan AND keep Ellsbury and Buchholz, they are geniuses!

Fact of the matter is, if this goes through, it IS a good deal for Minnesota. Every team in baseball knows that Minnesota will flat out lose Johan next year so Minnesota does not have the upper hand in negotiations. Minnesota fans have the right to be picky, but only so much. You make a deal like this now and you get a gold glove defense in Crisp, Lester who will finally be at full strength and already has an 11-2 record, and two very good prospects.

And hey, if the Sox don't get him... they still have a better starting pitching staff than last year, AND have Ellsbury. GO SOX!

oh yeah, and 11-2 record doesnt mean sh*t. see discussions about jon garland and you'll see that win/loss records are irrelevant, especially when you have a 4.68 era, 1.57 whip, and opponents are batting almost .280 against you in what is almost a full season of career starts.

they have already demanded ellsbury from boston, cano from yankees, and reyes from mets, i dont think that they will do this so the angels look like the best trade situation. maybe the dodgers will offer kemp and kershaw for santana still.

and remeber they are looking at rowand, so they could just look for a small deal to cover 3rd, which would fill all there holes, and keep santans and nathan. because if santana goes, nathan already said he will not resign, so he might as well be shipped off too.

How can anyone compare Coco to Melky? Not only has Coco just finished his age 27 season with a career OPS+ of 94, but he is due in excess of $4M per year for the next couple of years.

In contrast, Melky just finished his age 22 season with a career OPS+ of 90. He has a better OBP and is likely to develop power better power as he ages. And his salary is the minimum for someone with his service time.

Kennedy, Melky and a third prospect is a significantly better "haul" than what the Red Sox are rumored to be offering.

There is no way the Red Sox get Santana without giving up an actual prospect.

that package for Santana reminds me of the crud that the Red Sox sent to the Expos for Pedro Martinez. I doubt that happens for a second time.

all the dodgers would have to do is offer kemp who could play center, kershaw who could start on this team by midseason and andy laroche, who could start at 3rd, and a prospect, that would easily trump any offer by anyone else

They have several intriguing option for the Twins. My guess is it would be Miller, Billingsley, and Kemp. That package alone is better than what other teams can offer, unless top prospects are involved. The Dodgers have more prospects than any team in baseball, except the Rays, with one clear difference, they have money too. Now if top prospects get involved Kershaw tops anyone only because he is a lefty. We will see what happens, in any case, I'm just glad the hot stove is heating up.

Having the Yankees was bad enough, now we have the NEW Yankees (the Red Sox)!!...what chance does any team have against that kind of resources ??

Trober, I don't mean to question your reading comprehension skills, but.....why are you comparing Coco Crisp's OPS to Melky Cabrera's? My point was that neither one of them are any good, and certainly not good enough to lure away a guy like Johan. "Crisp is no better!" would only be a good comeback if the point wasn't that they both blow. Of course, the Yankee hand-jobbers insist that Melky is "only 24" and bound to turn into some sort of superstar. Because of course we know that every single prospect in the Yankee/Red Sox systems is a future Hall of Famer.

If this is such a great haul for Minnesota, why is Boston making the trade? If Lester/Hughes/Humber/Pelfry/Kennedy or any of these "prospects" are so valuable, why trade them? To hear these teams tell it, every one of them is an ace-in-training. So what do they need Santana for? If these prospects are so terrific, why not make them your #1 starter for 99% less money than Santana will require?

Lowrie and Masterson are legit prospects. Anyway who thinks differently hasn't done their homework. I'm hearing Masterson projects more to be a lights-out set-up man than he does a middle of the rotation SP.

I love how people dog Lester, a guy who clinched the WS a year after he was DIAGNOSED WITH CANCER. People forget that the big debate last year was him vs. Hughes. Next year, with him back at full strength, should be a huge bounceback year for him.

That is an awful haul by the Red Sox.

Why would Reyes have to be included when the Red Sox can get away with that crap? Same goes for the Yanks. Kennedy is decent (at best), Cabrera is below LA, and then some "B" level prospects.

I just don't get this.

once again:
they have already demanded ellsbury from boston, cano from yankees, and reyes from mets, i dont think that they will do this so the angels look like the best trade situation. maybe the dodgers will offer kemp and kershaw for santana still.

this rocks, i knew the red sox would pull ahead on this trade, even if we dont get Santana, then that leaves Haren wide open, we might even get to save a prospect

I dont know who everyone is kidding but before lester was diagnosed with cancer he was a top flight pitcher ala clay buchholz, just without a no hitter and the major hype... Lester is a top flight prospect, not only that but he is a prospect that has spent a good amount of 2 years in the majors... Lowrie is a good ss/3b prospect who doesnt project a lot of power but a good average and intelligent baserunning... Masterson is also one of hte jewels of the system... His sinkerball has been compared to derek lowes and wangs... and crisp is one of the best defensive CFs in the AL... Anyone who says that isnt a good haul is misinformed or biased

the fact that we are talking about Santana means there is going to be alot of nay-sayers, regaurdless of WHOMEVER is involved in any deal

"Lowrie? A middle infielder who hits a little average with absolutely no power and no speed. Awesome."

Come now, at least do some actual homework of your own before calling someone out. Lowrie... At AA, he put up a .297/.410/.501/.911 line. At AAA last year, .300/.356/.506/.862. Not sure how many middle infielders you know of who break a .500 slugging percentage, but I suppose for a superficial fan, just looking at homeruns is enough to determine a player's power production.

By way of comparison, Robinson Cano had lower slugging in the minors, and his OBP was 50 points lower than Lowrie's.

So, congratulations on winning the Jump to Conclusions With No Foundation Award.

As for Masterson, he averaged more than a strikeout per nine innings last year at AA, with a more than respectable 1.16 WHIP. If your position is that he's "average" for a Top 5-7 prospect in a deep system, then you could make a case. If you're stating that he's "average" in comparison with your average draft pick who flames out in the minors, then perhaps "Anti-Big-Market-Teams Nation" shouldn't be your source of objective information on how illegit these guys are.

ginandtacos.com ,
my bad on that post. i read so many posts and some of the different posters all bunch into one. I was simply saying, that if i had to choose one of the two, it would be melky, not that hes some great prospect. and please, wil you guys stop sucking down the lester juice. what in gods name makes him a great prospect, no one has said anything of value yet. just because he clinched some series doesnt mean anything. Hell, i think neal cotts clinched or luis vizcaino have clinched big games, are they great pitchers? cmon, lets get real, the bosox package for santana is trash unless they include ellsbury or buchholz.

Ok, I'm not going to pretend that Coco can hit, but he was worth 8.4 WARP last year. At worst, he's the 2nd best defensive center fielder in baseball (+22 from the fielding bible), while Melky is worth -22. -44 is a huge different defensively.

So, we give up a cost-controlled #3 starter, a guy worth 8 wins signed to a very desirable contract, and 2 other prospects (one of which, Lowrie, could easily outhit the jerk we currently have playing short). It's not Hughes/Chamberlain by far, but people underestimate Coco's value.

04Forever,

Not every team has the depth and $$$ that the Yankees/BoSox have. 90% of teams would be silly to consider trading for Santana, knowing he'd bolt after the year anyways.

I don't get on here and right too many comments on here but there are some real jackasses on here that need to be put in their place. Whoever is calling these Redsox prospects average or below avg needs to go grab their crackpipe and keep smoking. Obviously they know absolutely nothing about Minor League players. For instance, let's look at Youk and Dustin. I guess they weren't top prospects either right. I wonder what they are doing with the Bosox right now? Would anyone like to take a guess?

"Lowrie? A middle infielder who hits a little average with absolutely no power and no speed. Awesome. Hate to break it to you, but every team in the majors has about 3 guys like that in their system. 20 HR and 14 SB in 1100 AB in the minors....WOW! Awesome."

Lowrie was a 1st-round pick (45th overall) in 2005. In 3 seasons in the minors, Lowrie has a .291/.386/.448 line. In 1072 AB (slightly less than 2 major league seasons), he has 114 XBH: 80 doubles, 14 triples and 20 HR. You call that no power? ANY player who averages 57 XBH in 536 AB sounds good to me. And especially from a SS. In 2007, only 7 major league SS had that many XBH, and they all had at LEAST 630 AB. And all of those major leaguers had a lower OBP than Lowrie's career minor-league OBP (H. Ramirez tied him at .386).

Lester was a 2nd-round pick (57th overall) in 2002. In 2005 he was Eastern League Pitcher of the Year, and was the 4th-ranked prospect in the league (between Hanley Ramirez and Ryan Zimmerman). There are 2 reasons his major league numbers are unimpressive: 1) he was brought up prematurely when the Red Sox were riddled with injuries in 2006, and 2) HE HAD CANCER! He pitched half of 2006 with back pain that was caused by the cancer, and his 2007 numbers are because he was still recovering! Once he's back to full strength - and he's only 23 - he'll be a prime prospect again, and he's already major-league ready. Right now he's a 4th or 5th starter on 90% of the teams out there, and is only going to improve as his stamina returns.

"Crisp is a more expensive Melky with no upside."

Once again, he's a more expensive Melky who makes around 44 more plays each year in center. Melky is an atrocious fielder.

Why do people think Melky has upside? I don't get it.

hitting is not everything. crisp is a better ball player then Melky is right now at this point, the averages and hitting numbers are pretty much the same, but coco crisps insane defense is what sets him well ahead as melky as an all around ball player. maybe the twins want a defensive center fielder like they had with Hunter,

thats probably what the twins want, a center fielder that catches more balls, wouldnt you want that?

04Forever:

Jeez. Okay. Melky is 23. He's played 2.5 seasons in the majors. He can and will improve.

You think a 23 year old won't get better defensively? Learn to take better routes? Get better jumps?

Crisp is a bit better in terms of range.

Melky is a bit better in terms of assists and arm strength.

Crisp costs a lot.

Melky costs peanuts.

Crisp is 27? 28?

Melky is 23.

Which one do you think the Twins want?

The reason the offers are so "bad" for Johan is that there are only about 3 teams that could sign him and compete (and the mets simply do not have the prospects to get it done). The LA teams are on the fringe and the dodgers would seem to have to consider but I am doubtful of the Angels getting involved. We are talking about a 20+ mil a year deal for 5-7 years for a pitcher. That is not exactly something you want to give the farm away for. So we have a lowball war going between the Yankees and the Red Sox. This red sox rumor is slightly better than what the yankees reportedly offered. The Twins simply are not going to get multiple can't miss prospects in this deal. The Yankees need him bad if they want to win this year. To the red sox he would be a luxury, but their is offer is quite smart in that it is just enough to make the yankees have to up their offer which is hard for them to do weighing future vs present. That being said I doubt no one tops that offer before it is over but contrary to many in this discussion I think the Twins would take it if nothing else surfaced.

I also cannot believe anyone said a package of

kennedy/melky/horne blows this one away

that is an absolute joke, kill yourself please

the same can be said to every detractor of this rumor

people are acting as if the world will end if this trade goes through (which I still doubt it would)

As a Red Sox fan, I would be absolutely ecstatic to acquire Johan Santana. Who wouldn't be? Especially if it meant NOT giving up Ellsbury or Buchholz.

I would be a little disappointed to give up Lowrie and Masterson though. Despite all of the hate towards this supposed poor "haul" in the comments, this would be a great deal for the Twins. Lester and Crisp are both cheap, controllable players with upside. Lowrie is an on-base machine with a great glove. He's sort of a mix of Youkilis and Pedroia. And Masterson is on the fast-track to being one of the most highly touted prospects in baseball.

BTW, for all those who keep insisting that Ian Kennedy is kind of average/mediocre/worthless: he was just ranked the #26 prospect in baseball.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/news/top50/y2008/

(Ellsbury is #13 by the way.) I can't wait to see who they put as #'s 1-10... shouldn't Longoria be in there somewhere?

And we are back to square one, it's the same demands for the Twins, they haven't budged.

Two of the three for Red Sox plus parts.

One of the three pitchers for Yankees plus Austin Jackson plus parts.

After you guys argued until blue in the face whether that rumor from Charley Walters has any value.

Ah how I love this time of year.

I was kind of surprised to see Porcello on the list; same for Price. I know they've both got enormous upside, but do they really deserve to be considered top-20 before throwing even one professional pitch?

Good, if Boston is only including one from that group, they most certainly will not land Santana.

"BTW, for all those who keep insisting that Ian Kennedy is kind of average/mediocre/worthless: he was just ranked the #26 prospect in baseball."

Thats always a crappy list.

FWIW:
Kevin Goldstein has Lowrie, and Masterson ranked as "4 star prospects" the same rank he gave to Ian Kennedy, Jose Tabata, Austin Jackson, and Alan Horne.

I'm suprised he bought into the Austin Jackson hype.

As a Mets fan, I want to vote in favor of deling Jose Reyes for Johan.

I dont mind Reyes, but I dont love him like other Mets fans. He's exciting, but doesnt seem like an intelligent player to me. I like my leadoff hitter to have a cerebral approach. RIckey Henderson wasn't the best ever simply based on athleticism. He was a baseball genius.

Deal REyes for Johan. Acquire Ryan Freel to play SS.

I love Freel.

__________OFF TOPIC from conversation_____________
Tim, I think the Twins have interest in Rowand or other guys that make a little bit of money because of the fact that they have shed about 30M from the 07 payroll...

Guys like this are all gone:
Luis Castillo 5.75M
Jeff Cirillo 1.5M
Lew Ford 1M
Torii Hunter 12M
Sidney Ponson 1M
Juan Rincon 2M (well…was about to be and is only 2M…)
Carlos Silva 4.33M
Rondell White 2.5M

…adds up to 30.08 Million saved from last year.
They are currently only sitting in the 40-50M range for their payroll…

_________OK, Continue conversation now…_____________

So far every Red Sox fan has posted the exact same thing ("Great haul for the Twins!") but no one will answer the question: If these prospects are so damn great, why are you unloading them and calling it a great deal?

Admit it, you like this idea because it involves you trading a half-decent young pitcher with a serious health problem, a spare parts OF, and two mediocre prospects for a Hall of Famer. It's not because you're being "objective" and think this is a really fair idea for the Twins.

Check your egos. Every prospect you have isn't great simply because you have them. If you really felt that strongly about Lester as a SP, why get Santana? If these minor league dime-a-dozens are so great (Lowrie has "developing power" aka he hasn't hit for any yet but Red Sox Joe says he will someday) you're nuts to give them up in a 4-for-1, right?

I said it before and I'll say it again, there's NO WAY Johan ends up in Boston unless Ellsbury or Buchholz is in the deal. Phil Hughes has more potential than Lester ever will and as far as Coco, there were rumors not even a week ago of the Sox sending him to Texas for Gerald Laird, so that's how much they value him. Everyone saw how Ellsbury pretty much took the CF job from him in the postseason. I'm not saying that Melky Cabrera is better or worse than him. But I do know that he's younger (therefore, more room for "potential") and cheaper. Granted, the Yankees technically can't answer Boston's addition of Lowrie, but Alan Horne is better than Masterson.

Personally, I think the Sox have ZERO intention of trading for Johan. Theo is a smart guy - it wouldn't surprise me at all if he's just trying to drive up the price for the Yankees.

"If you really felt that strongly about Lester as a SP, why get Santana?"

I don't want to trade for Santana. I hope he stays in Minnesota, Pohlad gets lobotomized an illegitimate child shows up to contest his will and actually spends money on the team.

However if he's on the move I'd rather he be in Boston than in the Bronx.

"there were rumors not even a week ago of the Sox sending him to Texas for Gerald Laird"

People have said a lot of stupid sh*t in the past week. Doesn't mean it was remotely true.