Reds Seek Catching Help

What about Toby Hall? Donny Lucy? Or Cole Armstrong? I have been pushing (but Kenny never asks me) for the White Sox picking up of Freel. I think he is a great addition to the Sox. Both as an example as their new slogan (Share the Passion, Show the Swagger...no more Passion and Swagger than Ryan Freel.) and between him and Swisher, make long time Sox fans forget the images of Rowand crashing into walls. I thought this deal could get done with Bryan Anderson and a Reliever. Now, I think Bryan Anderson and Armstrong/Lucy/Hall.

The reason why the Reds are just now searching for another catcher--They just realized they have a pretty solid rotation, one that they can definitely win the central with. They've got some trade pieces, and instead of going after an established reliever are going to try to shore up their weakest offensive spot.
I say they do everything they can to get Molina. With Molina, this team is my central favorite.
I'd do just about anything to get him, and with the 1-4 spots in the starting rotation looking like they're gonna be locked down for the next 3 years at least I'd consider moving Bailey in a deal.

If people are considering Bengie Molina to be this huge savior, they're nuts...

Getting a sub-.320 OBP and a sub-.450 SLG isn't exactly this huge boon.

How would Reds fans feel about Saltalamacchia for Homer Bailey?

Or what do you think they would give up for Laird? Freel isn't something that Texas should be interested in.

"Not a huge savior, but a solid 7 hitter that shores up a weak spot in the lineup"

The problem is that those numbers really don't make a solid #7 hitter. They'd be better served waiting for David Ross to come back from his back spasms. He's a catcher who compares to Molina offensively and actually has less PB's and throws out batters at a higher percentage.

"Plus, in GABP both those numbers go up. Best players in that park are ones that put it into play a lot, and Molina never walks and is 8th among active players in AB/K, meaning he puts it into play just about more than any other major leaguer."

It also means higher rates for double plays.

Fortunately, in SF, he usually batted behind Ray Durham which limited his DP chances.

However, the Reds wouldn't have many speedy options to put in front of Molina in that line-up as people like Hopper and Phillips would probably be batting at the top of the order (if they trade Freel). Edwin Encarnacion, Jeff Keppinger and Alex Gonzalez (when he comes back) aren't the most fleet of foot and you're going to be seeing a lot of DP's there IMO

And there is no way in heck Encarnacion gets moved. None whatsoever.

Why does Grizzlyfox think that the Reds have a solid rotation?

Harang:
2007 16-6 3.73 ERA, with a career ERA of 4.15 from your ace isn't that impressive.

Arroyo:
2007 9-15 4.23 ERA

Belisle:
2007 8-9 5.32 ERA

Volquez/Cueto/Bailey seem to be the only ones with great promise from the rotation and all of them aren't going to pitch all year long. Bailey will probably end up being traded for a catcher.

Maybe Bailey/SS or 3B prospect for Landon Powell?

The A's and Reds were talking about trading Blanton. Maybe have Blanton/Powell for some kind of combination for Bailey/Votto/Cueto/prospect?

These deals would seem more reasonable. The Reds definitely need an improvement from a catcher and even a rookie like Powell, with good promise, would help out.

Molina is not worth much.

I remember they would not include E.E. in the Bedard deal so I doubt he is going anywhere.

If anyone thinks one of the Reds' big 4 is being moved for Bengie Molina or any other catcher for that matter then you're a damned fool.

How about Freel for the White Sox Crede or the Tigers Inge? Then, package Crede or Inge with Valentin or another excess player from the Reds and trade those guys for Molina?

As far as those who say Molina is no good, then how about his 19 Home Runs and 81 RBI in a Pitcher's park?? Or how about his combined .340 Batting Average from 2005 - 2007 against Left Handed Pitching? Those numbers beat teh heck out of what LaRue, Valentin and Ross have put up over the last three years.

As far as Defense goes, who would you rather have, Molina or Valentin or Bako?

Forget Offense if the Catcher can't call a game (Reds Starting Pitchers ERA in 2007 was over a Run higher with Valentin behind the plate compared to when Ross was Catching) or if they can't throw ANYBODY out.

Valentin threw out 8% of the Attempted Base stealers in 2007 and how many Errors has Bako made just trying to throw the ball down to Second base this Spring Training?

If the Reds are going to be a contender, especially in 2009, they don't need to half ass it and get some scrub Catcher who isn't worth a crap.

once you see cueto pitch you will understand

redhawk...they said the same thing about Homer Bailey last year...

What about Rich Aurilia and Bengie Molina for Encarnacion? Richie had a great year for the Reds a couple years ago and Molina could put up pretty big offensive numbers at catcher. The Giants are in a rebuilding process so a young, talented 3B like Encarnacion would be perfect for them. With those guys, you're talking about a club that could see each of the regulars hit 20+ HR.

Oh, and that would be assuming Aurilia plays 3B for the Reds...not 2B...obviously. He's not terrific defensively, but it's not like Encarnacion is the second coming of Brooks Robinson or anything.

BaseBallz, I hear ya. I wouldn't do it if I were the Reds. I'm just a diehard Giants fan that wants to see some young, offensive talent for once! Throw me a bone or something.

Seattle is probably the DEEPEST team in MLB with regards to Catchers.

Reds aren't going to land Clement, but Rob Johnson is ready now for MLB! And he's going to be a stud catcher.

How about Seattle gives up:

Rob Johnson & Baek & Reed

for

Griffey & Bailey

And Seattle covers 100% of Griffey's contract in 2008, along with the $4M buyout in 2009?!

Just a thought?!

DRWheelock, the Reds front office is not going to lose out on the Griffey chase to 600. Fat chance of him going anywhere unless the Reds are out of contention at the trade deadline.

Too bad we cant just convert hatty back to his catching days

XD23

Arent the Reds still in the midst of a lawsuit against the Nats

jza,

Because if you look at the Reds stats and Won Loss record away from GASP and also against Left Handed Pitching, they are NOT good. Why? Because the Reds are TOO dependent on the Home Run ball, which they can get away with at GASP but which does NOT work on the Road.

The Reds need hitters who can do more than just hit Home Runs as a way to drive in Runs.

Also, if you look at Hamilton, Hatteberg, A Gon and Dunn's Batting Averages against Left Handed Pitching last year you will find it VERY inadequate. If the middle of the order hitters are NOT doing well against Left Handed Pitching and then you have a guy like David Ross and his .200 Batting Average in the lower part of the order, then SOMETHING has to change if the Reds are going to even think of making it into the Play-Offs.

If the Reds continue to struggle to score Runs on the Road and continue to struggle to score against Left Handed Pitching they will NOT make it to the Play-Offs and will probably NOT even have a winning record.

Look, imagine if the Reds actually made it to the Play-offs but had bad stats on the Road and against Left Handed Pitching (which they have the last few years) and then had to face Johan Santana at Shea. So, it would be Harang versus Santana with Santana moist likely winning that match up. Then, the Reds would be down 1 zip with Arroyo going against whoever the Mets next Pitcher was.

In a short series and going against Left Handed Pitching, I do NOT like the Reds chances with the hitters they currently have.

ctownboy...

If your team sucked against LHP, what use is Bengie Molina?

He still is bad...just not as bad...He had a line of .271 BA/.295 OBP/.436 SLG against lefties. Ross had a line of .248 BA/.291 BA/.470 SLG against lefties.

Ross had a BETTER OPS against lefties than Molina...

I'd be looking to get some help elsewhere rather than picking up Bengie if you had worries about facing LHP...Maybe in an actual power role...

Again, over the last three years, Molina hit .340 against Left Handed Pitching.

By your own stats, Molina is ONLY worse in Slugging Percentage and if you take Ross out of GASP and put him in San Francisco, HIS Slugging Percentage would ALSO drop. Conversely, by taking Molina out of San Fran and putting him in GASP, his Offensive numbers will go up, just like MOST other players who have come to the Reds and played.

So, you want good Defense, Molina has won two Gold Gloves. You want Home Runs, Molina has the ability to do that while ALSO hitting for a higher Batting Average.

I am sick and tired of people just looking at a player's Home Run total and thinking THAT is the end-all, be-all of baseball. There are OTHER things that a winning team needs and Defense and being able to drive in Runs WITHOUT having to rely on a Home Run are two of them.

The Reds already have guys who can hit Home Runs but NOT play good Defense. They NEED a couple of more guys who can ALSO hit well and play good D.

As long as the Reds continue to be a Home Run hitting team that does NOT play good Defense, they will be a losing team.

I would take satly straight up for bailey. Wanted him last year when the reds and braves were supposedly talking about bronson arroyo

redhawk61,

i wasn't the one challenging the Reds rotation.

and, i'm not a Reds fan at all, but i have to agree with everything that's been said here about Cueto and Volquez being enormous talents based on what i've seen in spring training-- i most definitely have to agree with them. SURE, it's spring training, but there's something special to what they're throwing. those two might have some growing pains in '08, but they're wicked and will be a force to be reckoned with in the NL Central. if bailey gets his stuff together, that rotation will be hot sh**.

Now, as a Giants fan, I can say Molina is a premiere catcher. Sure, he's not young, so he's not for certain teams, but the guy is clutch and a good hitting catcher, and he calls a good game and knows how to treat a pitching staff. Watching him play for the Giants almost every game-- it's kind of ridiculous how clutch this guy is and how often he gets doubles, despite the fact he's the slowest man in baseball (after AJ Perzynski). Imagine what he'd do in a smaller ballpark. He is the kind of catcher you want on a team trying to WIN-NOW.

If Molina could actually be a part of the Giants in a few years when they might actually begin winning some games, well, then, I definitely wouldn't be rooting for him to be traded. However, since a few years (or more) down the line are not so feasible, i think he should be traded-- and the team getting him will be grateful, believe me.

the giants trading Molina is NOT like the giants trading somebody like durham or roberts.

that said, sure, molina is still not a fair trade straight up for someone like encarnacion or votto. however, considering the reds' need, perhaps something like molina and misch (or sanchez, to up the ante) is. maybe a PTBNML on top it.

anyway, i can dream. that's all the giants have left me. A FANTASY WORLD!

I like Molina as well. He was great with the Angels. Sure he has major shortcomings BUT he also brings intangibles to the game. If you watch him play every day you know what I am talking about.

As far as his defense ... he has always been a plus defender. His GG's did tend to exaggerate his prowess. While good - he was never great. The huge upside is listening to pitchers talk about the guy. He is a great pitchers catcher. That doesn't get picked up in stats necessarily but it is an important trait for a catcher to have.

He would hit close to 300 with 20 home runs playing in Cinci. That's not too bad for a guy who would come fairly cheap.

Can greg zaun be had? wouldn't be a horrid option - hes cheap and only has 1 yr left on contract so not apermenant block to reds young catcher.

The Cleveland Indians have a starting caliber catcher serving as a back-up to Martinez. They haven't been willing to part with Shoppach so far but if Marte continues to be a bust I've got to believe they'd have interest in Encarnacion.

Encarnacion is going nowhere he is the teams best hitter with runners on hitting .360 last year RISP

The guaranteed was referring to the fact he is under team control for four years, not the statistics.

Okay, if landing Encarncion or Votto is too much dreaming, how about Keppinger and PTBNL (perhaps an IF prospect in AA or AAA) for Molina?

If the Giants accepted Kepp and a PTBNL for Molina, I'd jump through the roof. Kepp is a fringe guy.

Oooohh! Now here's a thread I can get down with. I'll preface by professing my affection for/bias toward the O's. Having said that, I think it was a Cincy fan that brought up Ramon Hernandez (also in the original post), so I'll take it from there... It's a good fit, as Ramon has proven himself a capable offensive/defensive catcher with big years in SD and BAL on his resume, and who, at 31, is still young enough to put up prime-age numbers. From ST it's clear dude has really worked to get himself in better shape and he seems focused on staying healthy and returning to form (based on watching him and reading interviews). Perhaps most important, Ramon has a rep for being very good with young pitchers (it's why he was brought over in the first place), though that could work against a deal- the O's have one of the youngest staffs in the game (if you take out Traschel and replace him with Albers/Olson/Liz/Penn) and with Wieters on the way, Hernandez is a perfect mentor. Nevertheless, in the spirit of speculation, I'd look into Ramon and perhaps Jeremy Guthrie (?)- excellent numbers as a rookie in the AL East and under team control for the next four or five years (I'm pretty sure). So he's good and he's cheap, but at 28 (turning 29 during the season) he's also a bit old for a team in full-on rebuilding mode and seems to be a better fit on a club like Cincy with playoff aspirations over the next few years. I'm not sure how it would shake out value-wise, but would that package warrant something along the lines of Bailey/Volquez/Ross? What about Bailey/Votto/Ross or Bailey/Todd Frazier/Ross/Travis Wood? Would that be too much (realistically...I know, as a fan, you'd prefer not to give up as much)? Bailey seems to be in the dog house and Votto is currently blocked, BA sees Frazier as a 3B so he's blocked for the forseeable future (and Cincy's depth at third is just plain sick). What about a Hernandez/Burres or Hayden Penn for Bailey and Ross deal? Work with me (LOL). I know the Reds have no interest in trading Encarnacion and Cueto looks untouchable after his performance this spring (I don't usually put any stock in ST but the scout-praise makes me think the kid is for real. The Bailey/Volquez proposal would give you a rotation of Harang, Arroyo, Cueto, Guthrie, and Belisle and a lineup with Hernandez (C), Votto (1B), Phillips (2B), Gonzalez (SS), Encarnacion (3B) and an OF of Bruce, Griffey, Dunn, and Freel in some combo. I'm sure the move to the NL wouldn't hurt Guthrie either. Sounds fairly badass, but I'm really trying to get a feel for value, more than anything. BTW- What WAS the Reds' best offer for Bedard. Just curious.

The O's could also include one of our better LH BP arms like Jamie Walker or even Sherrill! This is fun!

Ramon Hernandez
Jeremy Guthrie
George Sherrill
4
Homer Bailey
Edinson Volquez/Joey Votto
Travis Wood
Todd Frazier/Juan Francisco
???!!!

I like where your heads at milehigh, but I just don't see a blockbuster coming up. If they wanted to trade sherrill now, we could throw in Roenicke(young closer prospect, hits 97, 4IP 0ER in ST), and another young reliever Guevera, but Volquez or Votto? Volquez is staying for good I believe, and Votto isn't getting moved for a catcher.
So maybe Hernandez/Sherrill/a not great but good SP prospect for Bailey/Freel/Roenicke/Guevera.

As usual, here are a few rants about one of the most ridiculous threads I have ever seen:

1.) Milehigh: Mix in a paragraph break once in awhile. Good content, but too much to read in that format.

2.) Whoever suggested the Rangers would trade Salty for Baily needs to re-examine their baseball knowledge. Jarrod Saltalamacchia is the future in Texas. You do not trade a player like Mark Texeira to land a player like Saltalamacchia only to flip him less than a year later for an unproven arm. NO, and don't give me the arguement about Elvis Andrus and company coming over as well. Salty was the centerpiece,and that is it.

3.) Reds fans: I know it has been awhile since you have sniffed postseason glory, but lets be honest here. If you want to return, you have to commit to the fact you are in a win-now mode. That doesn't mean shuffling prospects for prospects at positions. That means giving up a prospect (Cueto/Votto/Baily/Frazier/Mesoraco/ec.) for a proven veteran that will anchor a postseason run. If you truly think Bengie Molina would not be an upgrade to your current Catching situation, once again, you need to be re-examined. I won't bore you with numbers, but I would guarantee most industry professionals would agree that a healthy Molina can provide the necessary output required from the position to be above league average.

4.) I also agree with Orioles fans that there is a match with Ramon Hernandez barring a bounce back year. It will be most important for the Reds to evaluate Ramon based on skill-set rather than production because that line-up is not going to produce much.

5.) I have to stress once again: if you think you have a chance to compete for a World Series (and apparently the Reds do thanks to paying 50 million for a closer) you have to sacrifice unproven prospects for the guarantee that comes in a proven veteran.

1.) Ramon Hernandez is a good offensive catcher, and he handles pitchers well. But he gets run on sometimes. David Ross isn't as good offensively, but the Reds don't necesarily need that. Ross Holds runners better, and handles the staff just as well.

George Sherril put up good numbers last year, but the Reds already have Jeremy Affeldt, Bill Bray, kent Mercker, Mike Stanton and a few other lefties vying for spots.. They have plenty of lefties in the pen. Keeping Bailey (at least, not making a trade like this) and seeing how he progresses this year mentally is in their best interest - He's only 21.

2.) Molina is brilliant behind the plate. He is definately one of the top defensive catchers around, and he is clutch. But, he doesn't get on base too much more often than Ross, and he doesn't always work well with pitchers.

Jack Taschner? Why Taschner? Again, the Reds have all the lefty help they need, he's almost 30, and he's unproven.. he has't proven he can compete. Mike Stanton had similar numbers overall last year - not too good.

Plus, why would the Reds trade two of their last 4 number 1 picks and a good prospect for Molina and an unproven arm? Unproven is the whole reason you turned down the Bailey/Saltalamacchia trade, which would have been better anyway.

3.)Valenzuela was sold back to the Braves a few days ago.

These trades suggested (other than Hernandez/Sherrill/a not great but good SP prospect for Bailey/Freel/Roenicke/Guevera) are asking too much of the Reds.

Nobody said the Reds are in a win-now mode. They aren't. You're right, they signed Cordero for 45 mil, but over 4 years. Harang & Arroyo will be around until 2011. Brandon Phillips wants to spend forever with the Reds (:-)). Their major parts are locked down.. and their younger players are all under their control for awhile longer anyway. Why would they be in win-now mode with the big 5 they have all on the verge of the big leagues? Bruce Bailey Cueto and Votto are all right there (and all were top 50 prospects according to Baseball America). They are by no means in a win-now mode. I am content with waiting a year or two and holding most of our young pieces instead of trading them. Holding then would reap the benefits. We've been losing for 8 years, and now that the front office has its act together, I can wait it out another year. Who knows, they could contend this year anyway.

Any better, Juice? Know it was long, but tried out the paragraph breaks.

Can't stop myself:

Hernandez, Sherrill, Jim Hoey/Hayden Penn (Hoey is a nice power reliever prospect; Penn looks like he's back to 100% and pre-injury (which wasn't that serious...bone chips) tore up both AA and AAA and could benefit from a change of scenery. Hopefully not too much; wouldn't want him outperforming Bailey).
for
Bailey, Frazier, Freel (or O's give cash), Roenicke, and Ross?

Pretty close to what I said before...but I think the O's would be interested in Bailey, Griz. He may be damaged goods, but he's talented damaged goods and Frazier/Roenicke minimizes the risk.

That's cool blarkin. We ARE just talking. Still, a couple things I'd refute... First, Affeldt is fairly untested and Bray's ERA was somewhere north of 5.00 in '07 (if I'm not mistaken). Look at Sherrill's splits- he's not a situational lefty; that's why the O's wanted him. Guy's almost equally good vs LHers and RHers. Also, since he's our closer now, his value would rise significantly if he continues to pitch well (as most expect). Sherrill and Stanton really aren't comparable at this point. Stanton's done, while Sherrill has become a buzzed about player (just read some of the threads on this site...everyone seems to want him). If he keeps kicking caboose (it's a family site), he'll have a ton of value whether in a deal with the Reds or someone else. I was just posing the hypothetical here, due to the simultaneous need for a catcher.

So, the idea is that around mid-season, if you're still in the race and Sherrill's doing his thing and either A)Cordero is struggling a bit or B)The Reds think a top LH setup type might bolster the 'pen for the playoff push...THEN...MAYBE.

...and maybe Affeldt will be awesome. Who knows? That's half the fun.

As far as the prospects...
You made one HUGE mistake when you said that the only top prospect in the Bedard deal was Tillman. Technically, you're right that only Tillman was in BA's top 10, but A)he's a legit frontline prospect with star potential (and a long ways from reaching it); think Cueto a few years ago...? Again, who knows. A lot would have to break in his favor. More importantly B)Adam Jones wasn't eligible for the Top 10. If he were, he'd have been number one with a bullet. BA was asked where he'd rate among prospects OVERALL had he been eligible and they said around #10 or 11. That's a friggin stud! Again, star potential...and he's much closer to realizing it (than Tillman; that's not to say he's a sure thing by any means. The same can be said for Votto, Cueto, Volquez and the rest.

Finally, I agree that the Reds shouldn't completely sacrifice the future for the present, but I really don't think my proposal was doing so. I DID mention Votto, but that was only if the O's added Luke Scott- a 29 year old LF who hit 19 HRs in limited duty last year and who would allow Dunn to return to 1B...making Votto unnecessary. Even still, maybe your right...which is why I made other proposals.

I think a Hernandez, Sherrill, Burres/Penn/Hoey for Bailey, Frazier, Roenicke, Ross is pretty much in line with what you're talking about. You only lose one of the youngsters you referenced (currently, the least desirable one) so you've still got the future (Cueto, Volquez, Votto, Bruce- why do I keep forgetting about HIM; guy's awesome- plus Encarnacion and Phillips. Harang and Arroyo should last a while as well. Maybe instead of Roenicke, we go with Viola or, better yet, the O's add a PTBN or something. It's all speculation, of course, but interesting nonetheless and, I think, feasible.

I didn't mean to come across as defensive, dude. Really, I'm having fun, so...no worries. You made some good points; I hope I did the same.

Oh, and I hope Harang and Arroyo last awhile, they will as long as Dusty doesn't Mark Prior them.

Anyone have any idea's as to whether Shoppach is available from the Indians, or is Martinez going to play more first this year? If Shoppach can be had, for what? Freel? Keppinger?

I hope the Reds keep Keppinger - he can play anywhere, always makes contact no matter who is pitching, and he gets on base like few other people can.

He's hit at every level, and he's the old-school, keep quiet and go about your business on the field player that every team needs.