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« Odds and Ends: Alvarez, Zimmerman, Vizcaino, Hawkins | Main | Morgan Ensberg Designated »
The latest from Ken Rosenthal's Full Count video:
By Nat Boyle
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Really? The Royals really might deal Grienke? For some reason that would shock me. Teams try for years and years to get guys who look like they'll be top of the rotation guy for years, and Grienke seems to be exactly that. He's young and supremely talented, he's the kind of pitcher that you build your staff around. I realize that he had some mental issues and probably isn't the kind of guy you wanna make the face of your franchise, but Alex Gordon is pretty much that already, and I think moving Grienke would be a bad move. Unless they got back like three top prospects, at least one of which is an ace potential kind of guy, I think Grinke is an unmovable asset at this point.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 10:21 AM
How's this for a trade idea: Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno for Greinke. I think that's fair.
Posted by: TheGrinch | June 01, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Sounds like pure speculation on Rosenthal's part. I doubt KC would trade Greinke unless they were blown away by an offer, and a Pie/Cedeno package doesn't fit the bill.
Posted by: SBE | June 01, 2008 at 10:36 AM
dayton moore would laugh in henrys face at that offer lol
Posted by: Larsen101 | June 01, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Well that's no suprise that the Braves didn't even come close for Blanton. Beane was likely asking for Brent Lillibridge and Jordan Schaffer. Lillibridge shouldn't be to hard to part with, he's not hitting very well in AAA, and he's blocked by Yunel Escobar and Kelly Johnson, while Schaffer is considered to be the next Andrew Jones. For Blanton, and as an A's fan it's true, he is a #2 starter. But I'm more in favor of a deal to the Cubs, sending Rich Harden for Theriot/Cedeno and Vitters. Laugh in my face, but I think that would be Beane's asking price for Harden.
Posted by: AriGoldisaG | June 01, 2008 at 11:23 AM
I'm guessing TheGrinch got that from that odd article speculating a Cedeno/Pie for DeJesus/German/Prospect deal. That the guy was even thinking about Cedeno/Pie for DeJesus straight up is insane. He was clearly undervaluing Cedeno and Pie, even though obviously they aren't worth Grienke.
It'd probably take something like Pie, Gallagher, Cedeno and Donaldson
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 11:24 AM
Cubbies won't move Vitters for Harden. He's been in extended Spring Training for most of this year, and so they really don't know quite what they have with him yet. At this point I think they won't deal him until maybe this offseason if ever.
I could see a Felix Pie for Rich Harden trade though. Harden's value really isnt all that high, and neither is Pie. It'd be like trading low on two guys with huge potential, filling needs for both teams. The Cubs, with a rotation of Zambrano, Harden, Lilly, Dempster, Marquis/Hill, are probably the favorites in the NL. The A's get a long term CF who can take some PT immediately, and a future outfield of Gonzalez, Pie, Sweeney and/or Buck would look pretty good. Maybe the A's would target a middle infielder like Cedeno, but I doubt the Cubs want to give up both of them for Harden. If the difference between getting Harden and not getting Harden is Cedeno though, then I'd lean towards moving him.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 11:28 AM
Do the Cubs really want another injury-prone pitcher on their team? Sounds too much like getting another Mark Prior to me. Plus, if we wouldn't give an offer to Prior, why would we give up Felix Pie for Harden. I would like a guy like Blanton or Burnett, though.
Posted by: Joe | June 01, 2008 at 11:49 AM
I dont know about Pie for Harden, but I can almost bet that Oakland would take Cedeno for Harden. Harden's value is as low as can be and it doesnt sound like the A's are going to bring back Ellis. As for Greinke, I would rather see him in Cubbie blue, but he would take an aweful lot to get. Something like Pie/Gallagher/E Patterson/ + another prosepect would be what the Royals would want.
Either way for the Cubs a roataion like that would be plenty good.
Zambrano
Greinke/Harden
Lilly
Dempster
Hill (forget Marquis)
Posted by: RbCubsFan4Life | June 01, 2008 at 11:50 AM
"How's this for a trade idea: Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno for Greinke. I think that's fair."
Wow. Shocking. Another cubs fan with a ridiculous trade offer that is passed of as "fair". Lets see one guy can hit but cant field (Cedeno) and the other can field, but cant hit(Pie)... that for a guy who is 5-2 with a 2.88 ERA. Yeah, ok, sure, real fair.
Posted by: forlife61 | June 01, 2008 at 11:58 AM
"Beane was likely asking for Brent Lillibridge and Jordan Schaffer."
I can see Lillibridge, organizational need and all, but Schaffer ?
Is Schaffer's stock back as high as it once was ? I though being loaded up on HGH for the past year had taken some of the trade value out of him and we all know Beane isn't dumb, so why would he ask for such a dubious character?
I'd think he is more then happy to have Gonzalez playing center, or even Sweeney, as he seems a more natural CF, then having to trade one of his best chips for one.
One thing i don't think he's sold on is Buck in RF, so i'd believe he would ask the Braves for Jason Heyward, not Schaffer, since Beane can afford to wait a little longer for Heyward and he needs a good RF.
If he did ask for Schaffer, it probably was as a supplemental part of the trade, trying to buy low on the guy.
Posted by: BaseBallz | June 01, 2008 at 12:05 PM
"Cubbies won't move Vitters for Harden. He's been in extended Spring Training for most of this year, and so they really don't know quite what they have with him yet. At this point I think they won't deal him until maybe this offseason if ever.
I could see a Felix Pie for Rich Harden trade though. Harden's value really isnt all that high, and neither is Pie." - scribbletone
I'm not sure if you watch baseball, but he's made 7 starts. He never went to extended spring training, he was on the DL and rehabed in Stockton (High Class A) And scribs, you're a dumba$$ if you think Beane would move Harden for Pie. With a deep outfield already, and the fact he's not very good offensively, Beane would keep his Cy Young in the waiting.
"I'd think he is more then happy to have Gonzalez playing center, or even Sweeney, as he seems a more natural CF, then having to trade one of his best chips for one.
One thing i don't think he's sold on is Buck in RF, so i'd believe he would ask the Braves for Jason Heyward, not Schaffer, since Beane can afford to wait a little longer for Heyward and he needs a good RF." - Baseballz
You're wrong about Sweeney and C-Gon. C-Gon has the arm and range to play center + he is way faster then Sweeney. A's outfield after trade deadline:
LF Ryan Sweeney
CF Carlos Gonzalez
RF Travis Buck
And you're comment about Buck, do you talk out of you're A$$? Buck was hitting over .320 in his rehab assignment in AAA, thus he got called up. Buck hit .288 in his rookie year. And he is misplaced in the leadoff spot. Did you see, 1st day back in the leadoff spot 0-4 2nd day back #6 spot 2-4. He's gonna be really good they just need to play him in the spots where actually may hit the ball. That's also because Bob Geren is an idiot.
Posted by: AriGoldisaG | June 01, 2008 at 12:32 PM
I applaud the efforts of Wren to check in on Blanton, and applaud even further that he does not consider giving up a king's ransom for Blanton. Lillibridge of course should be part of the deal, but the braves should do their best to hold on to schafer, heyward, and hernandez, as they should only be traded for a pitcher with more potential than Blanton, and perhaps should just be held as off limits. Again, we do need another pitcher, but Campillo and JoJo have allowed for us to buy more time in our search for the right deal. Again, I would inquire about Daniel Cabrera, as he would cost less and could put up similar numbers to Blanton in the NL.
Posted by: bravesbeast | June 01, 2008 at 12:34 PM
AriGoldsiaG...Scribbletone was refering to Vitters when he talked about extended spring training. Re-read the post before you start biting into someone. As for any of these trade scenarios, none of them make sense at all.
Posted by: integr96 | June 01, 2008 at 12:40 PM
It wouldn't make any sense at all for Beane to trade Harden for Pie. Oakland has a glut out outfielders similar to Pie, most are better. Harden is a guy who you really can't trade because he's a good player when healthy, and no one will give enough for him. People need to think before they throw out these wacky proposals.
Posted by: bigpat | June 01, 2008 at 12:41 PM
As a Brewer Fan I wonder what would be the asking price for Harden?
I would take Harden over Blanton ANY DAY...Blanton is terrible away from home
But the brewers have plenty of Double A hitters that could be traded especially with the Brewers having 6 picks in the first 62 picks of this up coming draft
OF Prospects- laporta, Gilispe, Gwynn Jr
3rd/OF/1st- Mat Gamel
ss prospect- Alcides Escobar(has ML ready defense)
Catching prospects- Angel Salome, Jonathon Lucroy
Major league players on the big team- Bill Hall
I know Harden is an injury concern but he is a bonafide ACE when healthy... a healthy Sheets/harden/Parra/Suppan makes the Brewers rotation very good
Posted by: erbacaine | June 01, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Hell if I am Melvin I would trade... Gwynn and Hall to the Pads for Maddux...he likes Yost from his days in Atlanta and would love to pitch for his brother in Milwaukee
Then Trade Laporta, Salome and Escobar to the A's for Harden and Chavez
Posted by: erbacaine | June 01, 2008 at 01:01 PM
damn it...stupid message posted before I was done
That would give a rotation of
Sheets/Harden/Suppan/MadduxParra
Would give the Brewers Chavez to replace Hall(better defender and a lefty bat)
but that is dependant upon Chavez proving he is healthy now...so a good month would help do that
Just my thoughts
Posted by: erbacaine | June 01, 2008 at 01:04 PM
I'm just curious but when did the A's create a massive surplus of outfielders? Outside of Carlos Gonzalez I don't think they have a single guy that you can pen into that outfield for the next 5-10 years.
And as far as scouting reports and other things I've read and seen, Gonzalez is going to be a right fielder. He's been playing that spot in the minors for years, and with his arm that seems ideal for him. He'll probably get some time in center this year and would probably be adequate there for a couple years but he really isn't a center fielder. Meanwhile Emil Brown will be gone next year and Jack Cust belongs in the DH spot. Ryan Sweeney and Travis Buck have potential to be a solid players, but Buck is a corner outfielder as well and Sweeney isn't much better than adequate in center.
Although Felix Pie isn't exactly a slam dunk in terms of filling a team need, the A's other real team needs are at SS, 2B and possibly third. Unless they want Cedeno or maybe Tony Thomas, then the Cubs don't have those players to offer. Felix Pie is a fully legitimate center fielder who is already pretty much capable of playing brilliant defense, and has the potential to be a very good with the bat as well. I'm not quite sure what A's fans are expecting to get in exchange for Harden then if its not a stud CF prospect like Pie, because Harden is so injury prone that his value is damn near ruined.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 01:12 PM
Wow AriGold, talk about reading between and beyond the lines.
I know when i said "One thing i don't think he's sold on is Buck in RF"
I never knew i was saying that Buck was a poor hitter as well as commenting on his position as the lead off hitter. Im sure if you look harder Ari, you will also find that i was also insulting his facial hair as well.
But your response makes sense to you im sure:
"And you're comment about Buck, do you talk out of you're A$$? Buck was hitting over .320 in his rehab assignment in AAA, thus he got called up. Buck hit .288 in his rookie year."
Were you refering even to my post ? or did you confuse Harden and Buck ? In which case, yes, Buck is a better hitter then the BAvg Harden has been putting up.
I know you were just taking someone out of context in an effort to ... who knows, but to put it back into context --
If Beane was to try and trade Blanton for a Outfielder from the Braves organization i would think that Schaffer makes no sense -- for the drug reasons and the fact that Sweeney and Gonzalez have CF and LF locked up --regardless of who's a better CF, since all you and i have are our own opinions.
Regardless, It makes sense to me that Beane would trade for Jason Heyward instead of Schaffer since Heyward "could" prove to have more upside over a streaky Buck with his shin splints (A recurring problem which limits his ability to be an effective RF)
And as a side note, why do people always assume Beane asks for the moon and is unrelenting ? He asked for Scherzer to be included in the Arizona deal and backed off in order to get the deal done, so he does show common sense. It just doesn't jive with me when people assume he asks for the moon and doesn't back down like some four year old.
Posted by: BaseBallz | June 01, 2008 at 01:24 PM
I agree completely... Beane will probably be looking for a good middle infield prospect and a true centerfielder in return for Harden and/or Blanton.... that is why the package of Lillibridge and Schafer makes so much sense for beane..... Now, if the braves could perhaps also work Street into that deal, then there might be a possiblity of that package being reasonable... However, the braves probably want to keep their top tier position prospects in tact, since kotsay is questionable to be extended, and the high amount of doubt that Teixera resigns with the braves...
Posted by: bravesbeast | June 01, 2008 at 01:31 PM
Harden is not going to be traded for Pie. Beane is in the position of power, he knows that he doesn't have to give in at this time. Pie hasn't proven that he can hit major league pitching. And he is going to hold onto Harden until he can raise his value a little more, than he will become a trade candidate.
Harden is a better pitcher than Haren was, but Haren has a better health track record. But that doesn't mean he is going to be given up for much less. Ace caliber pitches are not traded for simply one good prospect. Will he take less then the Haren deal, more than likely but Pie is not enough, plain and simple.
In addition, think about the other teams that could become intersted if Harden can prove healthy. That will increase his value as well. I know that other teams will try to make a deal as well. Its not like Beane is going to be rushed, he will make the best deal for his club.
Posted by: AirmanSD | June 01, 2008 at 01:34 PM
I wouldn't call Pie a "stud" CF prospect. He might turn into a decent everyday CF'r, but I don't think he's ever going to become a stud and most probably know that. Maybe that is one of the reason's Cubs fans wanna jump all over including him in most trade scenario's??
As far as the A's OF depth, they have all the young guys that are there now including Buck, Gonzalez, and Sweeney. I agree that Cust should only be in the OF if there is a major emergency, otherwise he is strictly a DH. The A's have some guys down on the farm that have question marks, but have been highly touted and still have a chance to break through such as Herrera, Sulentic, and Robnett. Also, don't forget about Aaron Cunningham. The guy has done nothing but hit so far in his proffessional career and is supposed to be a good OF'r as well. Gets comp's to Aaron Rowand, and i've heard some say he could be better. The A's are not completely "loaded" with OF guys, but are more then comfortable and will likely focus on other positional needs if a trade occurs unless the OF prospect they get back is a very, very good one.
Lastly, Beane is in no rush to trade Harden and if he strings together another 6-8 starts I think somebody will pay what he wants. Harden is arguably the best pitcher in the AL, if not the majors when healthy and Beane absolutely should hold out to get 2-3 good prospects before trading him. He's still pretty young, and beyond productive when healthy. There may very well come a time when Harden no longer has any solid trade value, but I think its fairly obvious that time is not now.
Posted by: jpshark | June 01, 2008 at 01:38 PM
I never said that Harden would get traded for Pie, I'm just saying that it seems like that'd be a guy Beane would ask for from Chicago.
And can I please just put this out there:
RICH HARDEN CAN NO LONGER BE CONSIDERED A REAL ACE IN TRADE TALKS. HE'S NOW AN EXTREMELY INJURY-PRONED ACE WORTH A QUARTER AS MUCH.
Harden has ZERO comparisons among aces traded, because his trade value is SO much lower than a legitimate ace. Until Harden can put together 20-25 straight healthy, good starts, he's going to be considered damaged goods. Or you can just go the Mark Prior route and let him go for nothing when his arm is so burnt out its sad.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 01:44 PM
And btw, jpshark, thank you very much for bringing up Aaron Cunningham. I completely forget about him. He's got good potential to be along term player in their future as well.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 01:46 PM
Alright I'm trying to hold in my anger like they taught us in anger management. Wife made me take it. baseballz, you're an idiot. Buck's a good hitter. Next, scribs the A's outfield has always been their strength.
Travis Buck, Carlos Gonzalez, Ryan Sweeney, Chris Denorfia, Jermaine Mitchell, Corey Brown, Aaron Cunningham, Javier Herrera, Matt Sulentic...
If I had to name the A's systems strongest spots, it would be their outfield and left-handed pitching.
Posted by: AriGoldisaG | June 01, 2008 at 01:49 PM
The only guys on that list that I'd feel good about being good players long term are Buck, Gonzalez, Sweeney and Cunningha,. The rest of those guys are bench guys at best. Outfield may not be a need, but its not a huge surplus.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 01, 2008 at 01:52 PM
I completely agree that Harden will not net a return that an ace would, or even relatively close. Haren + 1 minor league reliever got the A's 6 quality prospects. Based on that, I would say that if Harden can string together consecutive starts into July it is not absurd to think Beane gets 2-3 guys back for him. Harden is an ace when healthy, but he's not healthy very much. I absolutely see that side of the argument, and wouldn't expect him to get an ace-like return. That's why I said it would likely be a 2-3 player return.
Posted by: jpshark | June 01, 2008 at 01:53 PM
…Uhhh, what the heck does this thread have to do with the Cubs anyway? And how would that lead to long pointless conversations on Pie for Harden? The likelihood of Greinke ending up in Chicago is next to nil, probably similar to the odds of Harden ending up there. The Fans are the only ones who seem to think the Cubs should be targeting high-profile pitchers, and using the same guys the team wouldn’t give up for Roberts in their proposals to get it… It just makes no sense, none of it…
Posted by: darkstar1661 | June 01, 2008 at 01:59 PM
I would love for the Reds to trade Homer Bailey and Edwin Encaracion to the Royals for Greinke.
Personally though the Royals are fools if they move him. They have the makings of a solid team here fairly soon and there fans have suffered long enough.
Its time to reward them.
Posted by: schellis | June 01, 2008 at 02:03 PM
baseballz, although your point about the haren deal is legitimate regarding scherzer, i would say that beane often asks for too much in return for his players and indeed has a reputation for doing so, one that is not necessarily inaccurate. that's not to say that he overvalues his players (i think he knows their value well and is just doing his job as a gm to get the best possible deals done) but his demands can border on ludicrous sometimes. recall when the reds attempted to acquire blanton and beane asked for at least two of johnny cueto, homer bailey, and joey votto? unrealistic. compare that to offers the twins fielded for santana. apparently the yankees had some interest in harden a few months ago and beane wanted at least kennedy, horne, and marquez. consider the fact that that was before kennedy's rather disastrous 30-some odd inning sampling this year and before his current placement on the DL, when a cloud of mystery and excitement to be honest still surrounded the yanks' trio of young studs. beane's demands frequently border on the absurd for players who have serious question marks (harden).
Posted by: jacklaf | June 01, 2008 at 02:10 PM
Alright enough harping on my man Beane. So enough with what you guys think he does, this IS what he does: If you guys have read moneyball you'll see his #1 rule about trades is never say you have to make a trade, because then you're FU*KED!. And he takes that thought into mind, so at the trade dealine this year when teams need answers in their rotation and the gm's say, "Oh SH!T we need to make trade!" Beane will be right there to capitalize off of the other teams need trade. Alright, now if you don't believe it then a) Look at some of his past trades b) read moneyball and c) fu*k off.
P.S. Scribs that's fine about their outfielders some just being bench players, but I will say that last years 1st round supplemental pick Cory Brown was suppose to be a mid-1st rounder, he fell because off attitude problems.
Posted by: AriGoldisaG | June 01, 2008 at 04:42 PM
Why is the Cubs talk here centered about Harden? I would love to have him, but we just got word that Penny may be made available. I think he is a great option to stick in the #2 spot for the playoff run. A rotation of
1. Zambrano
2. Penny
3. Dempster
4. Lilly
5. Marquis/Hill
That would be more than fine, and probably as good as Arizona's, especially when you factor in the Cubs far superior offense. If Beane is going to be unreasonable about Harden, Penny would be more than fine with me.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 01, 2008 at 05:03 PM
AriGoldisaG, wow ummmm no need to sh!t yourself there. first off, i was just making a point about beane's demands when other teams come calling. i wasn't necessarily saying that he was wrong for doing it (like i said, he has to, it's his job) but he is a difficult person to deal with. he sometimes reminds me of boras in that he makes outlandish demands for his players' services. i mean you and i both know that blanton is not worth cueto and votto. he's good, but not like that. all of that aside, the comment wasn't even directed at you, it was at baseballz, so i would appreciate it if you kept your nose in your own discussions and not told me to "fu*k off" when i'm not even talking to you. i was just trying to make a civilized argument against beane's tactics, something you obviously have trouble doing.
Posted by: jacklaf | June 01, 2008 at 06:11 PM
I havent read all the posts but I dont like the idea of Harden coming to the Cubs? We dont need anything injury prone pitcher. We have gone through this before a few times.
Posted by: uww1 | June 01, 2008 at 09:21 PM
What could the Cubs give to get Greinke? Pie, Hill, Cedeno? Maybe Veal?
Posted by: uww1 | June 01, 2008 at 09:22 PM
I like the Penny idea or maybe just the idea of any high profile pitcher.
You know what this is going to mean for Marquis? He is going to be left off the rotation again in the playoffs. HAHAHA
Posted by: uww1 | June 01, 2008 at 09:32 PM
Marquis is definitely not going to be on the playoff roster, assuming they get there.
Veal has pitched very well including a great outing yesterday. His stock has to be up, and I'd think he is probably going to be part of a package if they go out and get an impact starter.
UWW1, what do you think of the Penny idea? I know he hasn't been great so far this year, but I really think he will get it together and could be a great addition to this rotation.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 01, 2008 at 09:44 PM
Sorry, just saw the post where you addressed Penny. If the Dodgers fall out of it, I think thats a real possibility.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 01, 2008 at 09:47 PM
"What could the Cubs give to get Greinke? Pie, Hill, Cedeno? Maybe Veal?"
Just looking at it, with all four of those guys, you would have to believe they would at least listen. I would let them pick between
1. Pie or Colvin
2. Gallagher or Hill
3. Cedeno or Murton
4. Veal or Ceda
Anybody think I'm not giving up enough here?
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 01, 2008 at 09:49 PM
I think the Cubs have finally come to the conclusion that they could trade Pie OR Colvin but I doubt they would trade both. I know you said or but I just wanted to type it out I guess. Pie, Hill, Veal, Cedeno would be a great package to offer and I think would be worth it.
Penny would be great and I have always thought he was a good pitcher and would love to see him in Cubbie blue. His value is low and I think even if the Dodgers are in the race he could be available. What would it take?
Posted by: uww1 | June 01, 2008 at 09:54 PM
Aduncaroo...you are actually giving up WAY TOO MUCH. Just Hill would be already too much for Greinke, even with the troubles he has had this year. He'll straighten it out and will become a perennial 15-18 game winner starting next year.
Posted by: TheGrinch | June 01, 2008 at 09:57 PM
I think its too much too...but I think that is the kind of offer it would take to get him. Like I said, I'd rather go after Penny, who I think you could snag much, much cheaper.
Anybody want to weigh in on what it would take to get Penny, assuming the dodgers are 8 or more back at the break?
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 01, 2008 at 10:03 PM
First of all I would give up Hill for Grienke any day. I love hill but Greinke is Younger and is pitching great. Its going to take more then Hill to get the Royals to even listen.
I would say for Penny they would want Cedeno for sure maybe Veal and Wuertz? Just wanted to through some different names out there?
Posted by: uww1 | June 01, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Just cuz I have been drinking and speculating which is never a good thing. Here is what I think.
Cubs trade Hill, Wuertz, Cendeno
Royals trade Greinke
Cubs Trade Veal, Pie, Donaldson, Ceda
Rockies Trade Holliday
Rotation:
Zambrano
Lilly
Dempster
Greinke
Gallagher
Lineup:
Soriano
Fukudome
Lee
Ramirez
Holliday
Soto
Theriot
DeRosa
Just my fantasy :)
Posted by: uww1 | June 01, 2008 at 11:13 PM
"Its going to take more then Hill to get the Royals to even listen."
Agreed, despite what some think, Hill has very little trade value at this point. He is not some 21, 22, 23, 24 year old who is just going thru a rough time. This guy is already 28 (will be 29 at the beginning of next year), got sent down, is not doing well down there and is having problems with his back. Not to mention this guy has been a headcase before. Hill alone will net you very little.
Posted by: forlife61 | June 02, 2008 at 08:45 AM
I for one, can't wait for the Cubs to trade all of those bums. Hmmm, let's offer Hill, Gallagher, Veal, and frickin Cedeno in every MLBTR Comment section for whoever. Man I'm sick of hearing those names
Posted by: bucs_lose_again | June 02, 2008 at 09:19 AM
bucs, like it or not, Gallagher, Veal, and Cedeno have actually increased their value pretty significantly this year...at least so far. Brace yourself for the deadline, because you will be hearing those names a bunch.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 11:59 AM
You've got to love Cubs fans trying to trade their spare parts for a young, top of the rotation starter!
In fact, Kansas City won't move Grienke unless they get back at least two good players who can help them: Marmol and Theriot. Without those names in the deal, there's no deal!
Young,top of the rotation starting pitchers are hugely valuable.
Posted by: bernie | June 02, 2008 at 12:02 PM
Aduncaroo, I was referring to them as bums not in relation to their skills/ potential, rather referring to them as bums because they're names are in 2/3 of all the posts here.
My favorite part of this site is reading the comments section, and having to filter through their names on a daily basis is like watching a Tom Gorzelanny at bat, aka, painful and all around sucky.
I don't see Greinke going anywhere, but I suppose it's always fun to speculate.
BTW, everytime I see a post from Aduncaroo, I really feel like a Reds fan is making all those posts.
Posted by: bucs_lose_again | June 02, 2008 at 12:26 PM
"1. Pie or Colvin
2. Gallagher or Hill
3. Cedeno or Murton
4. Veal or Ceda"
That was my proposed deal for him...and I don't think I'm all that far off or one of those just trying to trade "spare parts".
Bucs,
I know what you are saying, I was just making the point that those names are going to be around all summer.
By the way, what do you mean by this?
"BTW, everytime I see a post from Aduncaroo, I really feel like a Reds fan is making all those posts."
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 12:41 PM
I guess because I think of Adam Dunn everytime I see your nick.
Posted by: bucs_lose_again | June 02, 2008 at 01:51 PM
HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA...
Oh man! So many Cubs fans are idiots! The Grinch is my new favorite. He wouldn't give...Rich Hill...for Zach Grienke.
(long pause)
Sorry, had to step away while I busted a gut. What a dumba$$! One guys a likely All Star; the other got demoted to AAA. Seriously?! Are you brain damaged? Cause if you are, at least you have an excuse. No? Hmmm.
Whoever said that Veal, Cedeno, and Gallagher have upped their respective values is right...to an extent. Still, Veal's control numbers are still quite poor, suggesting, more and more, that he's a future reliever; Gallagher's awesome AAA numbers have been tempered by the reality of his MLB numbers, and Cedeno...c'mon does ANYONE really think Cedeno's for real?!
Add to that the rapidly declining value of Felix Pie, Tyler Colvin (props for the walks, though; lol), Jose Ceda, and Hill, and...you're base of trade-worthy talent isn't in nearly as healthy a shape as you seem to think. Whatever. It's still a kick to hear some of these trade proposals. Holliday...Penny...Harden. Go Cubs!
Posted by: milehigh78 | June 02, 2008 at 01:58 PM
Sorry,
I'm not trying to be a d@#*, and it's certainly not ALL Cubs fans or all CUBS fans (if that makes sense), but bucs is right; it grows wearisome to read some of the absurdity spewed forth.
Adun- What's up?! You're right about those names being around all summer; I just think you're probably connecting them to the wrong return players...
Posted by: milehigh78 | June 02, 2008 at 02:03 PM
Final note: KC is stupid if they deal Grienke. Makes absolutely NO sense unless they're fitting him for a straight jacket again.
Posted by: milehigh78 | June 02, 2008 at 02:06 PM
No kidding, milehigh. Zero chance of Greinke going anywhere. As a lifelong Bucco's fan, I can at least relate to KC fans a little, and they finally have a team to be excited about. Can you imagine the uproar if Greinke was traded for Rich hill straight up?
Haha.
Next trade Alex Gordon to the Pirates and we'll gladly give you Neil Walker AND Jose Bautista. Maybe we're giving up too much....
Posted by: bucs_lose_again | June 02, 2008 at 02:13 PM
"I guess because I think of Adam Dunn everytime I see your nick."
Ahh..ok. maybe I'm slow today. My name is actually Adam Duncan, so I do a double take whenever I hear his name...
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 02:26 PM
Whats up mile? Here is what I think about the guys mentioned...
Cedeno-not sure anyone is buying he is this good...BUT, show a GM his AAA numbers, then his numbers this year, and you could probably sell that he has finally put it together at this level.
Gallagher-If you have watched any of his starts, he has actually been pretty darned good. Like yesterday, he left having given up only 2 runs in 5.2, and had 8 SO with 0 walks, and there was a man on 2nd. Wuertz came in and gave up a double right away, so it turned into 3ER in 5.2, when it could have easily been 2. His numbers have been pretty good though, and Lou seems to really like the guy.
Veal-Who knows. He has still walked some, but he has gained some of his stuff back, which is encouraging for all of the "he'll never be the same after injury" talk. Not ace potential like was once thought, but he may still be a starter yet.
Colvin-Ha...I can't get over this guy. He finally starts taking walks and now he can't hit the darn ball. Go figure!
Anyway, out of all of them, I think any GM that actually watches tape of Gallagher's starts this year would come away very impressed. This guy may not go back down.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 02:32 PM
Mile,
You don't think the Cubs could snag Penny? he has an ERA in the 5s right now...and certainly could give a pretty decent package for where his stock is at right now, no? The others, I agree, pretty tough, but I really think Penny could be a near perfect fit.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 02:33 PM
I think the funniest thing comes in the fact that the Fans (in the face of a GM saying he is happy with his club, and the team actually winning) are proclaiming that they need to trade for a reliable top of the rotation type like Penny, Harden or Greinke. Really, Penny, Harden or Greinke? …see, if I was going to come up with a fantasy like ‘Add-A-Star’ dream, and I was targeting starters who will provide reliability ~ well lets just say that Harden (hurt twice this year already), Penny (5.66 ERA, 1.557 WHIP and 27 BB to 37 K in 70IP) and Greinke (Nice looking young player with track record of inconsistency and mental problems doing great for 1st time really). But that’s the fans targets ~ and to get these guys it’s the same “untouchable” players who were proclaimed to be such integral parts of the club less than 2 months ago. …Its like, hello? But, whatever…
Posted by: darkstar1661 | June 02, 2008 at 03:36 PM
1. We don't want to give up the farm for a few month rental of CC, if he even ever is available.
2. What other top of the rotation guys are available?
3. We saw the playoffs last year, and know that with Arizona adding Haren to their rotation, we need to upgrade as well.
The fans are thinking playoffs, not regular season.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 04:55 PM
Well, the Fans might be ill-advised in their thinking then...
There is a growing sentiment among baseball that Penny might need surgery; his game is beyond messed up right now... Harden of course is always a surgery waiting to happen… Greinke has pitched more than 150 innings only once in his career; 2005 when he pitched only 180-ish… If you want playoff help, I question even more why anyone would look at these three; esp at this point in the season. Maybe, and I mean maybe at the deadline ~ not 2 months prior to it though…
…But hey, like you said, its basically the only thing possibly available at this specific minute ~ why not give away most of what ya got to take whatever it is…
Posted by: darkstar1661 | June 02, 2008 at 08:29 PM
jaklaf, you a dumba$$ I wasn't talking to you! I was talking to baseballz. You're an idiot. You're alomost as bad as "guru" you reply to something you didn't read. I never once mentioned something you said. I mentioned baseballz and scribz, the only difference between you and guru is that you don't make up random trades that would help you're team. Maybe you do because I've never seen any of you're posts.
Posted by: AriGoldisaG | June 02, 2008 at 08:47 PM
I'm talking about the deadline, not right now. If Penny has a better stretch that would lead management to decide he is on the right track, snag him.
As far as Harden, it depends on what it takes to get him. He is an ace when healthy. If Beane asks too much, which he probably will, you just tell him no thanks and move on. As far as Greinke, I don't think he is going to be worth anywhere near what it would take to get him. To me, I think Penny is the perfect fit, as long as he can prove he can get on the right track.
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 02, 2008 at 09:31 PM
"Anybody want to weigh in on what it would take to get Penny, assuming the dodgers are 8 or more back at the break?"
That is assuming a lot. The rest of the Dodger staff has come around and the bats are waking up as well. They are only 3.5 back and should only be 1.5 back.
"There is a growing sentiment among baseball that Penny might need surgery; his game is beyond messed up right now..."
Where did you get such an insane idea? Guys who need surgery don't throw 95 consistently and touch 97. Penny is doing just that. Penny looks to have a bit of Steve Blass syndrome these days, which is to say command problems. He is leaving 95 mph cookies over the plate and is getting hammered for single after single after single, on top of walking way too many. He is overthrowing his pitches and I think the main issue may be his noticeable weight gain.
The more I think about it, Penny seems to be going through something typical of groundball pitchers. They have off years. Look at Lowe back in 2004. He was absolutely terrible. Then he had 4 years of excellent numbers that would have been even better had he gotten any run support.
Posted by: AA | June 03, 2008 at 04:17 AM
"Where did you get such an insane idea?"
I'm wondering the same thing. Dark, who "around baseball" thinks Penny needs surgery?? Do you have any evidence of this at all?
Posted by: Aduncaroo | June 04, 2008 at 05:48 PM