Yankees-Sabathia Chatter

I think a deal is more likely to get done this year than previous, due to the lack of talent in the draft next year, of which the Indians would get a pick if CC left (per some article on ESPN). Therefore, I think the Indians might be willing to take a package of multiple AAA-AA talent, seeing as their farm system has a significant gap in major-league ready talent.

I'd love to do a deal with tabata, kennedy, marquez, and melky.

I'm sure it would take ajack, montero, and horne

Giving up on Cano eh? but I see where you are coming from.

However, I dont see any suitable replacement for Cano so Id hold on to him.

Im sure Cashman would still want to hold on to Hughes and Kennedy but a package similar to the one the Yankees offered for Santana would get it done-

Hughes, Marquez and Jackson or
Kennedy, Marquez, Tabata and Alberto Gonzalez

If they traded cano in the deal, it would have to have a huge orlando hudson offseason offer in mind

Even with his current horrific slump, why would the Yankees move Cano for 4 months of Sabathia? Beyond the whole "he was looking like a perennial .300 hitter and has a team friendly deal" aspect, isn't the bump down to Gonzalez or whoever would fill in somewhat self defeating?

Trading a limited upside pitcher like Kennedy is fine; trading the only young, star potential position player we have for a rental seems dumb.

Indians shouldn't have much interest in A-Jax* with Sizemore and (I guess) Crowe already in the system.

* Yup, we all know this is going to become the next annoying Yankee nickname. Goodbye IPK, hello A-Jax.

(I think you accidentally listed Eric Duncan)

The Indians need corner outfielders, and have a number of pitching prospects although the stock of many have dropped. I think the Yankees won't move Cano since they would probably sign Sabathia in the off-season, and that's a steep price for a rent a player. Masterson and Lowry have both been solid since coming up, and with Jon Lester's no hitter those prospects are probably "sell-highs" for the Red Sox. However, if Schilling is good when he returns, along with Daisuke, Sabathia is merely icing on the cake. The situation looks a lot like the Santana Saga, where both AL teams are bluffing their interest so the other has to offer too much.

As a Cubs fan, I have to offer some sort of deal. How 'bout Murton, Cedeno, and Gallagher. All ML-ready talent for next season

whats with the berating of Sabathia?
And youd likely have to give up the same amount for Harden or Blanton that you would Sabathia, and with Blanton just an OK 3 or 4 starter and with Harden always injured Id go with Sabathia whos rarely hurt and is a fireballing lefty to compliment Andy Pettitte.

No, it would be easier to get both Street and one of Harden or Blanton then it would be to just get Sabathia. Cleveland will try and get every penny that they can out of whoever gets Sabathia.

"As a Cubs fan, I have to offer some sort of deal. How 'bout Murton, Cedeno, and Gallagher. All ML-ready talent for next season"

I'm a Cubs fan, and thats not enough. Maybe they might think harder if you threw in Colvin, but the Sox and Yanks can blow even that package away if they choose to.

If the CUbs were to make the trade they actually have a better shot this year than in years past. They have Fuld, Murton, Gallagher, Marshall, Petrick, and Patterson that are all MLB ready for the tribe next season plus a host of other good prospects that may entice a team that is most likely going to be competitive while doing a minor rebuild. Plus a trade with the Cubs for these types of players keeps the cash flow low for them as none of these players cost much. Cedeno is another possible player in the mix and maybe even Jake Fox (but I doubt that with Blanco thinking retirement after this year). But the Cubs can also probably do something else and that is sign CC to a long term deal (new owners like to make a splash and Zell would do it to bolster the price of a sale)
The BoSox are only in it if the Yankees are as they are already tops and the Yanks while they do have a pension for this type of thing may not even be contending or able to sign CC to a long deal to make it worth giving up Cano and some of their other prospects.

I think a package of Hughes, Jackson and Tabata would not only get the job done, but be the only reasonable idea in this topic, which is full of blind Yankees fans and a blind Yankees hater. These package are ridiculous, listing guys that aren't even prospects. No one wants Jeff Marquez or these crap non-prospects that fill out the Yankees' minor league teams. The Yankees have a shot but I don't see it happening. I'm not sure any team with the talent necessary to acquire Sabathia will do so, this includes the Red Sox and their haul of pitching.

No smart GM is going to give another team a #1 starter, free agent or not, without getting something big in return. It's pretty obvious that championship windows are getting smaller and smaller. Make the move and go for it while you can. That's what the Indians should have done last year.

Another point to consider:

Look back at what the Indians received for another overweight former ace, Bartolo Colon 5-6 years ago. Sizemore, Lee, Phillips, and 1 other player. For whatever reason the Indians are excellent at scouting talent in other organizations. So it would not surprise me at all if the Indians were to trade CC they target talent that could be in A ball. Even though it would take years before they are big league ready, they will find the talent that best fits them and that may not be names that we are all familiar with.

"How about:
Hughes, Horne, and Jackson for Sabathia & Sin Choo."

You have to be kidding me.

The Yankees aren't trading Hughes for a rental and the right to sign someone to a $200M contract.

OMG It's like people have lost thier collective minds.

Let me get this straight. I can purchase this guy's services for free this upcoming year. Yet people want to sell depth from ML near ready talent and do the same thing we could do if we don't trade for him which basically is buy his services.

Question would he get a longterm deal ? Yes. Can I get a better deal in the offseason and keep my assets ? Yes. So why would my GM or any competent GM do this ? You got to love speculation.

it comes down to whether the yankees are more willing now to deal prospects for a front of the rotation guy than they were when they balked at Johan a couple months ago.

and i think the offer increases if the Yankees are allowed to talk extention with CC before the deal.

hahahahaha go for it yanks, mortgage the future again for a one hit wonder

Love the name, but when have the Yankees ever really mortgaged the future? They don't have a Hanley Ramirez floating around the majors.

Praying4tribe,
To answer your question the Cubs have alot of depth that will keep that talent out of the majors. They have right and left field under long term deals and the same for 1st, 3rd, Catcher. So the only opportunity for this talent in Center, and maybe ss and 2nd if the Cubs don't keep Derosa when his deal is up and they decide to forget pie and if they decide they need an upgrade at ss...otherwise they are expendable.

"Brandon: You're discounting the whole "win this year because George's health isn't all that great" factor. The Yankees will make a desperate move, its just a matter of how desperate."

That has absolutely nothing to do w/ it. Is George sick yes but they are not overspending for another non guarantee.

Cashman can only win these arguments for so long. I hope you're right, I just fear the worst.

Blegh, sorry for double post, having trouble with the posts today ;-)

"Honestly, if someone like the Cubs or Yankees or Dodgers, etc were close, why not make a big move? Again, windows of opportunity are very very small."

Because that's not smart baseball.

The Cardinals absolutely HAD to have another ace, and dealt Haren+Barton+Calero for Mulder.

The Mets -needed- an ace and traded for Santana (and his contract).

The Cardinals won DESPITE the horrible trade. The Mets are in a horrible, horrible, situation, with a barren farm system, and -no- hope for the future.

The Yankees and Red Sox and Diamondbacks are in 'win now, but preserve the system so we can keep winning' modes. It's not about winning this year. It's about developing a core team that can win for a decade.

Heck, the Tigers made that huge offseason move to solidify themselves as a World Series contender... and... uh... that don't look good either.

Couple of thoughts on this thread ...

1. People need to actually consider what Cleveland wants/needs. Cleveland is a team focused on winning next year. Sending prospects that will come up in '10/'11 won't help Cleveland.

2. The deal that the Twins received for Johan is not comparable. The Twins took substantially less to get Johan out of the AL. If that wasn't the goal the offers from both the Yanks and Red Sox were much more significant.

3. The Yankees will give up prospects (and high ceiling ones at that) if they believe that CC can push them over the top. They certainly have the resources to resign the guy after the season. This move will be made out of desperation and Cleveland knows that. The price will be very steep.

4. Finally, Billy Beane will also extract a premium for Blanton/Harden/Street. While not as high of a price tag, there is also a large talent gap between what the A's have and CC.

Aduncaroo you explained the situation for the Cubs, I'm a Yankees fan the scenerio I painted was

"Question would he get a longterm deal ? Yes. Can I get a better deal in the offseason and keep my assets ? Yes. So why would my GM or any competent GM do this ? You got to love speculation."

I think I put it clear here. I mean if the Cubs sign him longterm fine. My arguement is there aren't many teams that will do that so that's why the Yanks will not do this.

I don't see any reason the Yankees should trade any of their top prospects for a four month rental right now. If the Yankees were closer to first or in first and getting CC would give them that much better of chance at winning the World Series then I would do it. But right now getting CC would not even guarantee them a spot in the playoffs.
CC has not been consistent this year and is not worth the prospects it will take to get the trade done. If the Yankees really want him wait until the offseason and try to sign him then.

He's actually been quite consistent. Consistently sucked in April, has been consistently awesome since.

"Does anybody else out there think that the signing of Broussard may make Hoffpauir available? "

Hoffpauir is liked by the Cubs more than any other organization by a lot. He isn't going anywhere unless its a throw in.

Brandon, I completely understand. None of that was a shot at you at all, I was just answering your question from a Cubs perspective.

Again, thats not going to beat the Sox or Yanks packages if they offer up their top tier guys...

Anyone know what the Phils are likely to offer up? Seems like they could actually sign CC with Burrell's contract leaving and they would love another Ace in that rotation.

Also, I was thinking that the Cubs and Phils or any other NL team might have a slight advantage because he would be going out of the AL, and not to an AL contender...much less the ones that keep taking the Indians out of the playoffs.

Stop, stop this sketch… Its silly!

Aduncaroo's latest idea might work, but only with Gallagher and Cedeno. Why would the Cubs realistically give up Gallagher though? I'm all for giving up talent to get a key piece but Gallagher is showing he can pitch in the big leagues. And he's young. He isn't Sabathia, but I don't see why the Cubs would do that.

Couple issues, Ross. Indians already have a better Gonzalez in Cabrera and, according to every scouting report I've read, Montero has no shot of making the bigs as a catcher.

I hope the 12 isn't walks.

(I know, its HRs, but the walks are killing me.)

Jesus Montero projects as a first basemen and probably won't be ready by 2010. Also, what you're thinking of offering would maybe get you a nice relief pitcher.

Also, to call any prospect a perennial 15 game winner before he has success in the big leagues is absolutely foolish.

Yeah, but that was before Gallagher was a major league starter.

There is no doubt Joba and Hughes are untouchable... anyone who recommends otherwise really has no clue. Both are in the majors, have #1 stuff, small contracts, are 21/22 years old and as much potential as anyone in the league (yes, even Hughes after his horrible start). I also believe Cano to be 90% untouchable.

That being said, everyone else in the system can be had, it's only a matter of the right combination. Kennedy still has value and potential, but not nearly as much as in the offseason. I would envision a Melky/Kennedy/Tabata being enough to get this deal done, as it would give Cleveland 2 ML ready guys with mid-level potential and a guy 1-2 years away with higher potential but more questions. New York can then use Brett Gardner in CF.

I can't imagine Cleveland being offered anything more and I can't see 2 draft picks being worth turning it down.

"He is not even 28 years old and his weight isn't even an issue because he's been like that his entire career."

Sabathia is better when he doesnt focus on trimming his weight. The whole weight argument is stupid anyway though, since being overweight has never stopped a pitcher from being able to pitch. Its more just one of those things people throw out there when they cant think of anything to say…

“Gallagher, Veal, Marshall and Cedeno”

…said package wouldn’t even open the door. Veal is unlikely to ever make it to the majors, unless as possibly a BP arm. Marshall would have a difficult time cracking the depth chart, and his injury history limits the value even more. Cedeno might possibly stick as a fill-in for a short time (since Barfield is hurt and Cabrera was just sent down for a refresher), but being out of options will be DFAed before too long. That leaves only Gallagher, and Gallagher is not even close to being worth 2 first-round DPs … Otherwise, guys like Colvin (solely projectable, no results shown what so ever) and Ceda (21 YO BP arm with no control, or experience over A-ball) are not adding any real value either. Hard to make a package out of that which 2 1st rounders doesn’t atleast equal to completely blow away…

The Indians have stated that they wont trade CC and instead attempt to resign him or in a worst case take the DPs unless they are blown away by an offer. The packages Yankee and Cubs fans are talking about are in the “do you think this might be fair” range; that aint gonna get it done. Of course some here are also trying to resort to the “well, he is heavy” or “well, he had a couple early bad games” or whatever route to try to act like his value should be lowered because of it ~ and to that the Indians will just say “then go try to find your bargain ace elseware…”

"Sabathia < Santana.

2-3 months of Sabathia << 6 months of Santana.

Right to try to sign Sabathia for 6+ years < right to try to sign Santana for 6+ years."

Exactly right. The Twins final demand from the Yankees for Santana was Kennedy, Jackson/Horne, Cabrera. And they declined. If they wouldn't give up that much for Santana, they won't do it for Sabathia. I think they'll offer a Jackson, Horne package and maybe a low level guy. The Indians lose Sabathia and fill 1 hole, left field. (They don't need Horne) Same thing for Boston and I think they're in to keep the Yankees out. That leaves the Cubs. I'd offer Josh Vitters, (a top 45 prospect according to Baseball prospectus) Jose Ceda, (a future closer) Felix Pie or Tyler Colvin, and Ronny Cedeno. That should be more than enough to get it done. If the Cubs get Sabathia, they will be aguably the best team in the MLB.

"I'd offer Josh Vitters, (a top 45 prospect according to Baseball prospectus) Jose Ceda, (a future closer) Felix Pie or Tyler Colvin, and Ronny Cedeno. That should be more than enough to get it done"

Colvin has been hurt for the last two months, has shown an inability to play 3B, is atleast 4-5 years from the majors and because of the 3B thing would just be added to a glut of 1B/DH types in the system. Unlikely

Pie ~ another CF... Unlikely

Cardenas and Golston or Drabek for CC. Possibly both if need be. There's your 2B, a toolsy CF/LF type or a great upside young arm. I think that's a good, non-homerish package

Pretty steep price to pay for CC, but I think that puts the Phils at the top of the NL.

Sure the Cubs have done a really good job feasting on the Pirates and the NL West, but with Sabathia to go with Hamels I think they match up well across the board.

Right now the teams are comparable...Phils slightly better lineup, Cubs better rotation with Dempster, and maybe slightly better pen with Marmol setting up Wood. CC gives the Phils a rotation edge there IMO, plus someone to match up with the Harens, Dempsters or Maines of the league

wayne,

I think if either the Cubs or Phils added CC, they would be the best team in the NL. Lets be honest, the two are very close, and I think CC puts either over the top. Lets hope the tribe wants to ship him out of the AL! Thanks for the info about the Phils.

Vitters is supposed to be a good athelete and have a good arm, I'm thinking if he is with the Cubs that he may be Fukudome's replacement in RF by the time he is up. Just a guess though...

eVizions: Melky's value falls a ton if you move him to a corner. His glove in CF (and the lineup around him I guess) justifies the Yankees carrying a .312 OBP OF but not by a wide margin. I can't imagine Cleveland being interested.

Not as simple as that at all, Max. If an offer exceeding the value assigned by Cleveland to hypothetical 2009 1st and a supp picks comes along, Shapiro has to atleast consider it. I'm sure most GMs are still quite aware of the mistake Bowden made by holding onto Soriano a few years back.

"Argh, this is frustrating to read....

Sure, Santana is the best pitcher in all of baseball, and CC is great but not as great as Johan.

But, Johan isn't available right now, and CC is. If you are close in July, and you need a starter, CC is the type of pitcher that you can ride to the post-season. As was said above, CC will be available if and only if Shapiro is "blown away" because he's the top pitcher on the market right now. No one else available is anywhere near CC's caliber, and if you think you need him to win, you'll pay. Otherwise, stay home in October and watch the WS on tv.

Simple as that."

Shapiro will only take the draft picks if he thinks there will be good players to pick in those slots.

Anything else is a smoke screen to try to get more value than the player's worth.

Some teams were willing to overpay for a run at the Series (Mets, Tigers). We see where that got them.

No thanks.

Forgive me if some of these comments are repetitive of other posts, but there are just too damn many to read (LOL)!

Joe- stop being stupid. I hate to be a d#@*, but...what?!!! You think that because the Yanks wouldn't give up X amount for Santana six months ago, that Cleveland will take some crappy deal for Sabathia now?! Huh? Sorry pal but that just doesn't equate. The Indians are going to demand plenty and they're either going to get it or they're going to keep Sabathia. They're not just going to go, 'Oh well, if that's the best we can get...'

The Cubs aren't getting Sabathia for the reason that most rational Cubs fans here have pointed out: they don't have the goods to get the deal done if there's ANY competition. Sure, they might be able to pull it off in a vacuum, with no one upping the ante, but that's not how the real world works. Even then, it wouldn't be easy. Contrary to what dark says, Vitters has value, however it IS diminished. It wouldn't make any sense for the Cubs to trade him now, while his value is at such a low point. Sure, he came into the year a top 50 prospect, but have you seen what he's done? First he couldn't make a full season club and stayed in extended spring training (not a good sign), then he sucked at low A, then he got hurt. He's worth a fraction of what he was worth coming into the year. Plenty of teams might still like him, but none would give full value. Furthermore, of the Cubbies minor leaguers, only Gallagher, Rhee, and Rosa have increased their value, while Pie has become a cautionary tale and Hill has completely lost it. A package of Gallagher, Vitters, Ceda, Veal, and Donaldson might get it done if there were no challengers, but like I said, that's not the real world.

The Yankees fans who think they could pull off a Sabathia swap without losing any of their top youngsters are kidding themselves as well. New York's farm is improved, but it's not Tampa's; there just aren't enough good pieces to get a deal of this caliber done without dipping in to the top prospect bin. Hughes OR Cano would likely have to be included. From there, I'd guess AJax or Tabata (Tabata's the better fit, but he's struggled mightily this year), Horne, and either Angelini or Montero. If that sounds like a lot...it is! That's what it takes to get an ace of Sabathia's age and talent level(though it might also take a sign-and-trade on Cleveland's part). It makes more sense for New York to go after CC in the offseason, where they wouldn't have to part with any of their prospects, though they'd be risking losing him to another bidder (like, say, his hometown Giants or the Angels or...whoever), but make no mistake, the Indians aren't going to drop their price because of this consideration.

I was saying that I don't think Vitters value will be as high as it should be, because I believe its a matter of time before the guy rakes. He is 18 years old with 50 at bats...no one knows anything about him yet other than what they did at the draft, which is that his ceiling is huge. He has been injured though...so if his value is any lower than being the best hitter in last year's draft, I don't think the Cubs should let him go. He is still a blue chip guy to the Cubs...and if he isn't to other teams, they should not trade him.

I don't think it matters anyway because the Indians would be looking for guys that would be helping sooner than Vitters would...like Gallagher.

"Joe- stop being stupid. I hate to be a d#@*, but...what?!!! You think that because the Yanks wouldn't give up X amount for Santana six months ago, that Cleveland will take some crappy deal for Sabathia now?! Huh? Sorry pal but that just doesn't equate. The Indians are going to demand plenty and they're either going to get it or they're going to keep Sabathia. They're not just going to go, 'Oh well, if that's the best we can get...'"

I guess that's at me although I'm not Joe ... but where do I say the Yankees are going to get Sabathia? I did say or implied that I don't believe they'd move Cano or Joba or Hughes but I never said I thought a Kennedy led package would be enough to get him. Certainly I'd like CC in pinstripes, but if you can quote me above saying "I think Kennedy + is enough" rather than "I think Kennedy + is all we should offer", I'll eat my keyboard. Literally.