The Price For Fuentes

bucholz for fuentes? is that a joke? why the hell would boston ever consider that?

also, i think bucholz is a much better prospect than kennedy. i dont know if these deals were meant to be straight up deals but if so, the yankees would be doing much better. even so, thats a humongous asking price

There is quite a difference between those pitchers, doesn't make any sense to ask for the top pitching prospect from one team, and ask for the third best from another.

I agree. If they ask for Bucholz from the red sox, why not ask for Hughes from the Yanks? And I agree that the Joe Rauch deal may have shot the reliever market in the foot. One above average prospect for 2.3 of one of the top relievers in baseball this year? Good luck Colorado.

LOL
When Clay Buchholz is brought up, don't you think you should start discussing Matt Holliday?

Brian Fuentes? Come on!

Fuentes for Bucholtz or Kennedy is ridiculous. He'll be on the free-agent market in a few months and can be had for nothing. Plus, there are other quality lefty RP's on the market in Marte and Mahay...maybe even Ohman. all can be had for less.

would a package of bucholz, lowrie, masterson and another prospect be enough for holliday and fuentes?

The sox could use ellsbury and crisp as 4th and 5th outfielders respectively and just decline mannys options.

They would be losing some great prospects but would be getting 2 from fuentes and a great bat in holliday.

thoughts?

Jim Bowden ruins everything.

Aside from Bucholtz...the other two are just big "Red Sox Nation" names. Lowrie hit a whole .260 in AAA and Masterson...even with some success this year because hitters hadn't seen him...is a 86 mph sidewinder that is fit for the pen. (Jeff Nelson type) Doubt that would cut it...unless the 4th prospect is a REAL stud.

PS - Besides, the Rox have Tulo and Barmes at SS.

i kinda agree that lowrie is not an unbelieavable name but i think he'll be alot like pedroia. masterson on the other hand is a solid prospect. he'll be a solid number 3 starter within a few years

I would do Kennedy, Tabata or Melky, A Romine and Chris Britton for that pair.

Even though Fuentes may be better than Rauch the bottom line is he is a rental.

I'm just glade that The Nationals put it where the sun doesn't shine on The Rockies they have been asking for the moon all along for all of there players.

When the Indians in the off season asked about Atkins they wanted Fausto Carmona / Arron Laffey and Ben Francisco

I mean common 3 right now starting players and 2 or then starters for a 30 homer 3rd basemen.

The Rockies are crazy they want the moon for any of their guys that are talked about .

Now the asking price for Fuentes will have to come way down. I Love It .

Look for them to hold their player until the last hours leading up to the deadline and then they will end up with 2 to 3 lower tier prospect or young players with + up-side in return.

i dont know why any team would want melky. he sucks. hes a 4th outfielder at best. no power, although hes got a decent arm. hes just a huge name from yankee nation (or whatever you want to call it). if you get holliday almost any package would include hughes or joba (although i dont think the yankees would trade him for anything at this point with his cult following)

"would a package of bucholz, lowrie, masterson and another prospect be enough for holliday and fuentes?"

I would argue that this deal would get done. Buchholz is arguably the most talented young pitcher in baseball, and has a massive ceiling. He's one of hte most valuable commodities there is. To package him with a good SS prospect, another good starter in Masterson and a 4th prospect? I dont see how Colorado could possibly do any better. The fourth prospect would likely have to be either Ryan Kalish or Josh Reddick, a quality outfield prospect.

Plus, Jed Lowrie is better projected at second base anyways. He's capable of playing a decent shortstop, which is why he's there, but he's a better fit for second. This fits the Rox perfectly in their search for a long term second baseman.

With a future rotation that includes Buchholz, Ubaldo Jimenez, Jeff Francis, Franklin Morales and/or one of their other prospects (Friedrich, Reynolds, Hynick, Strop..), and a bullpen built around Manny Corpas and Casey Weathers, that's a pretty good stable of young pitchers.

Combine that with Tulowitzki, Stewart, Fowler, Iannetta, Lowrie, Kalish/Reddick and whatever they might be able to get for Brad Hawpe, Garrett Atkins and hell maybe even Aaron Cook and Todd Helton.

I still think that Colorado would seriously consider and probably do that trade, after seeing the Rauch trade and what it does to Fuentes' value, as well as the fact that its unlikely they'll land a package with a better player than Buchholz.

As much as I hate his cocky-a$$ attitude, Pedroia is a good little hitter. Don't think Lowrie will be hitting .315 at this level. Masterson? Look at his STUFF, not the numbers. He throws an 86-88 mph fastball and a frisbee slider. Nothing special there. Kennedy had a 1.80 era last year when called up too with similar stuff. He looked like a #3 last year by the numbers, but I'm not expecting any more than a #4-5 out of him...just like Masterson.

I bet you would do that JJ, problem is it is an inferior offer to the rumored Phillies offer that apparently wasn't enough for the two (Carrasco, Marson, Victorino, Happ)

"I would do Kennedy, Tabata or Melky, A Romine and Chris Britton for that pair."

What are on you, dude? Ohhhh right its the Yankees-Red Sox thing..

So a Buchholz/Lowrie/Masterson/Prospect package is crap for Holliday/Fuentes, but this package is a good one? What?!?

Ian Kennedy is a projected 4/5 starter now, Buchholz is a projected NUMBER ONE.

Tabata has crashed down prospect lists with his struggles this season, and both him and Melky are not the prospects they once were. Neither of these guys has the value they once did.

Chris Britton and Romine? Meh, a couple of decent throw ins.

You're out of your mind if you think this is better than the BoSox's package.

Given the rumored Philadelphia package (Victorino, Marson, Carrasco, Happ) I'd imagine Colorado would jump all over a Buchholz led package from Philadelphia. Lowrie's position probably wouldn't be an issue; he could easily slide over to 2B (and likely would in Boston if not for Pedroia).

PS - As for Melky...he has regressed this year, that's true. However, he's STILL only 23 years old...hits from both sides of the plate, led the league in outfield assists, can run the bases and covers a good amount of ground in center. No 23 year old has hit a ceiling...he has good tools and room to grow. Not to mention a low price tag. He HAS value.

kennedy had that era yes, but in what? 4 starts? look how terribly awful he was this year? kennedy didnt even belong in AA this season, he was THAT bad. not saying hes a bad pitcher but you overvalue him a great deal

how is pedroia cocky? he rarely ever talks to the media, works very hard and runs everything out. i think hes everything you would want in a player

"Kennedy had a 1.80 era last year when called up too with similar stuff. He looked like a #3 last year by the numbers, but I'm not expecting any more than a #4-5 out of him...just like Masterson"

So why is Kennedy the centerpiece of the Yankees' offer, but Masterson is the third best player in the Red Sox's offer? Ohhh right because the Red Sox one was better.

I'm glad Bucholtz is a projected #1 in BOSTON....but last I looked his era was near 6 and has gotten rocked this year just like Kennedy.

True is, nobody know WHAT these kids will do yet and projections are just that. Hughes was supposed to better than Joba at this point and did anyone think that Lester would be this far ahead of Bucholtz? No and no.

As far as the rumored Phillies proposal, it's better than BOTH of the ones you and I are talking about. The Rox are on crack with their asking price...it will come down. Fuentes is a rental and they know they have little chance in re-signing Holliday after next year.

"I'm glad Bucholtz is a projected #1 in BOSTON....but last I looked his era was near 6 and has gotten rocked this year just like Kennedy."

Uhh Buchholz is a projected #1 everywhere in the world. I don't think I've ever seen/heard/read anything from anyone that says otherwise.

And Buchholz hasn't gotten rocked nearly as hard. His peripherals (hell, all of his numbers) are far better than Kennedy's.

its just crazy to me that yankee fans think that the yankees can get all these huge names without giving up hughes or joba. i realize joba is not moving so that leaves hughes. although his stock has dropped considerably. unless the yankees give up every single prospect they have in a deal, they will have to give up hughes

I bet the Yankees make a deal without giving up "every single prospect" or Hughes. To omit Jackson from your comment shows a bit of a hole in your Yankee prospect knowledge.

"PS - As for Melky...he has regressed this year, that's true. However, he's STILL only 23 years old ... He HAS value."

Atleast we can agree on this. Never seems to get mentioned (in the NYY/BOS fishbowl) that he's almost a year younger than Ellsbury. While I recognize Ellsbury has him in the speed and defense departments, Melky's power projection helps balance a bit of that out.

(Granted, I'd still take Ellsbury at this point, but for him to be viewed as super-untouchable while Melky is called valueless is pretty dumb)

Also the I'm a Indians fan but also a overall baseball fan and The Red Sox nor The Yankees even need Fuentes to begin with .
I just don't see where he is a upgrade at Closer or Set-up man for either team.

If anybody really needs him it may be the Angels since they are going to let K-Rod skate at the end of the season.

If I where the Red Sox I seeing what type of proven hitter I may be able to snag with my prospects and maybe COCO to replace Manny for next year when his option isn't picked up.

Overwhelm someone for their young powerhitter player that is signed for the next couple of years.

Like Fielder or Howard and move rotate them Ortiz on 1st and at DH The Red Sox and the Yankees have the Depth in Top Prospects and secondary prospects to make a deal like this happens .

And the Yankees will be looking to replace Damon and Giambi in the offseason. They need to see this offseason if Austin Jackson is the real deal so they can move Melky to a corner and play Jackson in CF this needs to happen as early as possible next season.

I believe that Jackson should already be up he seems to have a good eye at the plate strikes out every 4 playe appearences but he also walks alot he may be a upgrade at center right now .

With Matsui's nagging injurys is he going to have to DH a good chunck of next season or do you move him to another team and he becomes a DH for the rest of his career .

scribble - WOW....everywhere in the "world"! Geez...I guess there are scouts in Indonesia that have a chubby over this kid, strictly because he's a Boston farmhand and has gotten ROCKED this year!! LOL!!

You grossly overlooked Romine who is a .290 hitter at catcher with a good arm....Britton who has a 3.19 career era in 67 games...and Tabata who is STILL a teenager with 5 tool potential and rates highly to anyone outside of Boston.

Finally, lighten up dude. Typical Bahston toolshed...it insults his manhood if one of his prospects isn't thought of as gold. This is a friendly chat site. Everyone is making up ficticious deals and slingin bull. It's not meant to be taken as life and death. LOL!!!

XWJINX - Since you're actually discussing this like a gentleman...I will respond by saying that all I said...is that I would OFFER. The Rox could think that's insane or they may take it...who knows! Did anyone think that's all Rauch was worth? Is anyone IN sales on this board? would you offer your absolute BEST first so they can bump you further? Not if you actually KNOW how to sell. Again, this is all in fun guys. I'm not a gateway into Cashman's mind. Although I wish i was...I'd slap him senseless!! LOL!!

"how is pedroia cocky? he rarely ever talks to the media"

You should listen to an interview with the guy. Yes, he's cocky. Incredibly so.

"Masterson? Look at his STUFF, not the numbers. He throws an 86-88 mph fastball and a frisbee slider."

Neither of those are his primary pitches. Masterson is a sinkerballer. Think Lowe.

Uhh I'm from Chicago. And most people from this site would know that I'm a Cubs fan. I'm a baseball fan, but mostly I'm a Cubs fan.

"You grossly overlooked Romine who is a .290 hitter at catcher with a good arm.."

Why do you have to lie? Romine is currently a 22 year old catcher hitting .229/.316/.307 in lo A. He's a nonprospect. He's nothing.

I still agree that Tabata has the chance to be a complete stud, but it's just getting less likely. His continued struggles in AA this year have to be fairly concerning. Obviously he's young for his level so you can be more open with him, but the guy just hasn't produced. He just isn't as valuable a prospect as he once was. Just like with Melky. They're both still valuable, just not as much so.

Ellsbury - .261 5 27 - 3 total outfield assists in 126 career games.

Melky - .244 8 35 - 33 total outfield assists in 383 career games. Hits BOTH and is a year younger than Ellsbury

Neither is lightin' the joint on fire...both have potential. However, one is viewed as the second coming in Boston (as ALL their prospects are) and one is viewed as trash. TYPICAL.

Isn't cocky a good thing in a baseball player?

"You grossly overlooked Romine who is a .290 hitter at catcher with a good arm.."

Is it necessary to straight up lie? Andrew Romine is a 22 year old catcher batting .229/.316/.307 in low A. He's a nonprospect at this point. He's nothing.

Although I do agree that Tabata still has the potential to be a stud. He's young for his level so that could explain his lack of production, but the guy just needs to start to get it going. I've read that he seems really overmatched in AA, and has shown flashes of some attitude problems. They could just be blips on his path to stardom, but ya never know with guys as young as him.

Scribble - You're misreading dude. AUSTIN ROMINE is a 19 year old catcher in Charleston hitting .277 (his average dipped from a 1-10 slide since I last looked). Look again before calling someone a liar.

i hate typekey.

Damnit. I clicked on the wrong name. Okay good job I feel like a jerk. Yeah Austin Romine has some pretty decent potential.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&did=milb&cid=233

yes ellsbury has had a bad few months, but you also have to take a look at the steals. how many does melky have? when ellsbury is on base the pitcher has alot more to worry about than the batter. melky doesnt bring that to the table.

Relax, it wasn't all that long ago teams like the Yankees/Red Sox would trade a Clay Bucholtz for a Brian Fuentes and not think twice.

A lot has changed in just a short time.

"yes ellsbury has had a bad few months, but you also have to take a look at the steals. how many does melky have? when ellsbury is on base the pitcher has alot more to worry about than the batter. melky doesnt bring that to the table."

I think that the key difference between the two guys will end up being speed and on base percentage. Jacoby Ellsbury seems well on his way to becoming the ideal leadoff man: an elite defensive CF with the ability to bat .300 and get a lot of walks, and steal 60 bags a year. Melky may be able to match the batting average and probably the defense, but Melky won't have the discipline or speed to be the kind of player that Ellsbury can be. He might have slightly more power, but Ellsbury is projected to have some decent power as well so thats almost a wash.

Even if Melky is younger I think that there can be no doubt that Ellsbury will likely be the better player.

XWooJinx - Ellsbury is a good base stealer....Melky is better at gunning out runners. I'm not comparing the two per se. What I'm saying is that it's pathetic that Red Sux fans think their player is the second coming and Melky is cr*p!

Mekly hits from both sides, is better at throwing at runners, has more power potential and is a year younger. Ells is a better base stealer and may hit for a higher average down the road. That's all he has on Melky at the moment.

I need to get back to work!! Ciao~

Looking at what it will take to land Fuentes I guess the earlier post about Colorado wanting Wood, Adenhart, Kendrick and Santana/Saunders for Holliday seems downright reasonable.

Colorado is living in a fantasy world. Screw them. Sit on your guys and watch Fuentes sign with a crappy team. Enjoy your supp pick along with a 2nd rounder.

Also, from a neutral non-Yankee, non-Boston fan perspective (I hate them both equally) I have to chime in on some of the discussion.

To compare Kennedy to Bucholz is absurd. Bucholz, from a stuff perspective, has #1 starter written all over him. He is Boston's Joba. You can't say that about Kennedy. He looks to be the 2nd coming of Jason Marquis. A not so solid 5th starter.

Don't even get me started about Melky. And how can you compare the two and not include SB's? OBP and SB's are Ellsbury's strengths and the most important qualities for a lead-off hitter. While I don't buy into the theory that Ellsbury is going to be a superstar I can say without hesitation that he will exceed greatly any value that Melky has. Melky is a 4th outfielder at best. If he wasn't playing for the Yankees you wouldn't even know about the guy.

Yankee fans, please, please, please stop trying to push Melky/Kennedy on us. We had to deal with it all during the off-season with the Johan trades. I thought we had moved beyond that.

I'd take Phily's package over Bucholz lowrie Masterson.

The Rockies are in the drivers seat for this deal. Believe it or not and despite their horrible record they are still in the NL West race. So if they don't get a suitable offer for Fuentes they can hold him and get a pick or two if he becomes a free agent.

However if they are offered any one or combination of any major prospects they have to make this deal. It wouldn't make sense if they didn't.

The Yankees simply don't have the prospects to land Fuentes and Holliday in the same deal. If I were Dan O'Dowd, I'd ask for Hughes, Kennedy, Jackson, Cabrera, and Melancon. From the Red Sox, I'd go with Buchholz, Lowrie, Masterson, Crisp, and Bowden. From the Mets, I'd take Martinez, Niese, Smith, Murphy, and Carp, or Beltran, Murphy and Kunz. Agreed?