Dodgers Talks For Wilson At Impasse

i would rather have hu and dejesus battle it out. if manny is resigned the 8 hitter isnt going to be a huge deal.

At least Kemp isn't being mentioned as part of the trade like during the end of the season. Still it's either the Dodgers resign Furcal or just let Hu and DeJesus battle it out.

technically, no. I was speaking of Fural as a lost cause already and that the replacement would be internal, so from that perspective trading a ss prospect for 6+ mil Jack Wilson is adding payroll...needlessly in my opinion as Chin Lung Hu is Jack Wilson-lite. If the dodgers don't care about offense from shortstop, they're already covered w/o obtaining Wilson and his salary, much less giving up the younger cheaper version of him to the other team in the same transaction to boot.

makes sense if they get someone with wilson for hu, like a neil walker.
wilson has also shown he can fill in at the top of the order.
(i wish the A's could make a crosby+ for wilson deal)

wilson 2yr/15+mill
crosby:1yr/3mill (A's kick in 2mill cash)

Are these demands a joke?

This might be the most rediculous rumor ive ever seen...the Pirates have the worst front office period. If they can get Hu straight up for this guy, they should take it. Wilson is horrible

Man, the demand is so absurd it's not even funny.

What is the exact point of trading away a young, defensive shortstop that just needs to prove he can hit + other talents for an aging defensive shortstop who proved he can only hit for average.

"This is the single-best management team in all of baseball, maybe all of sports."

-Bob Nutting

considering the source, i'm pretty convinced this is nothing more than rosenthal blowing smoke. this has to be some sort of joke... i thought april fool's day was on april 1, not november 25?

It is really interesting the amount of teams chasing after Wilson when OC is clearly the superior SS available. OC may not be the clubhouse guy that Wilson is, but he will be the fielder and much superior rangey guy by far that Rent a reck or wilson by a vast margin of any SS that can be had this off season and hit as good as any of them.

"Hu is a defensive gold glover and can put up a .312 OBP while only requiring $400K to the payroll. If defense is the way the Dodgers want to go, keep the kid and hope he can put up numbers similar or better than Berroa put up last season. Theoretically Hu was bad in his big league stint because of an eye problem that was corrected..."

I don't think Hu's problem was necessarily his eyes, because his bat speed seemed to disappear as well. That said, the guy has proved he can hit as high as the AAA level, so I don't think anyone can argue that his true value at the plate is far better than what we saw this season. That said, he will never be Rafael Furcal.

"So he hasn't played a full season yet, and he's already a gold glover? Can I get some of what you're smoking?"

The guy has been a defensive genius since being signed. His glove is not a question.

Hu has been called a Gold Glove caliber SS since he signed. It's been all scouts talked about until 2007 when he hit .325/.364/.504 in the minors and was the MVP of the Futures Game that year.
Now, will he win the Gold Glove? Probably not since it's given to good hitters and not just spectacular fielders. Just look at Nate McLouth.

If the pirates did get Hu and 2 others the management would be doing a hood job for the future.
Hu
Pearce
Ohlendorf
Karsens
LaRoach
Patel
Singh
Moss
Hansen

I am sick and tired of the venom everytime the Pirates try to do something. They are doing whatever it takes to right this ship. In the case of Jack Wilson there are six teams that want his services. These teams don't want to be stuck with a high-priced free agent for the next 4 years.

I prefer a package of DeJesus and McDonald for Wilson and a C prospect. Wilson will be traded in 2 weeks to the highest bidder. Some team will be desperate for his no-bat all-glove services. Until then go pick on someone your own size.

"The only thing I have to say is that Jack Wilson proved he can hit fine at the major league level. Sure he was injured last year but if you look back at his career it isn't a trend. He plays amaizing defense and is a decent hitter for his position."

The average hitter in baseball has a .334 or so OBP. Wilson has only topped that twice, once by a mere .001. For a guy with limited power, that isn't saying much. While I don't think Wilson is useless at the plate, he certainly isn't good enough to justify what he is paid and to trade anything significant for.

"I can come up with a few that hit better but there are also several that are worse."

A few? Lets see now. Here are those "few" in no particular order:

Hanley Ramirez
Derek Jeter
Rafael Furcal
Michael Young
J.J. Hardy
Stephen Drew
Ryan Theriot
Miguel Tejada
Mike Aviles
Jose Reyes
Troy Tulowitzki
Jimmy Rollins
Orlando Cabrera
Edgar Renteria
Emmanuel Burriss

"Also 7 million for 1 year and he has a 600k buyout so if he has a bad yaer you don't have to have him the next year if he does well then you pick up his option."

Why waste the money AND players on him? Hu's glove is worth the same as Wilson's and the difference in batting, if there ends up being any, is not worth the difference between the minimum and the money Wilson is set to make.

"I prefer a package of DeJesus and McDonald for Wilson and a C prospect"

That package would be a start to get someone like peavy not freakin wilson. I hope you are kidding

A terrible idea. Cabrera or Renteria would be huge upgrades over Wilson. I heard Therriot from Chicago may be available?

ehhh thats still light coming the pirates.

""Hu is a defensive gold glover.
.
.
.
Now, will he win the Gold Glove?"

That's all I wanted to get clarified. I know how good he is defensively. I've read the scouting reports. I'm just saying that it's not correct to label a guy a gold glover UNTIL he's actually won one. It's like saying that Phil Hughes is a Cy Young pitcher; or Travis Snider is a Silver Slugger.

Now, that's not saying it won't happen, but it's just too early to label the guy one until he's actually shown he can win it.

And I would take Wilson over Crosby. Crosby's defense is overrated, and he's a worse contact hitter than Wilson is.

Furcal>Renteria or Cabrera> Wilson
Crud
Who is going to play 2nd for the Dodgers? Dewitt,Hudson??

"I'm not real familiar with Crosby. He used to be an allstar wasn't he? Would he be better than Hu or Berroa?"

Crosby sucks. He is Jack Wilson with an even worse bat. He is a mediocre glove with nothing to really offer at the plate. Only people who drink the Billy Beane Kool-Aid are sold on him.

Greene has more upside than an awful lot of the SS making the rounds this off season, such as Reneria, Wilson, Lugo etc.. he had a bad season, certainly, but has a rare combination of power, hitting and some decent glovemanship which one does not see often from the SS position.

I realize Jack Wilson is nothing more than middle of the road, but it's funny how fans are quick to blast teams other than their own based on what they view to be value. Look every fan has a distorted view of what his players are worth, it's been that way since the beginning of baseball. It's crazy to fault Huntington for asking for a package of players for a known commodity in Jack Wilson. Will he land that package? Probably not. When dealing with free agents and trades, the goal is to get as much as possible for your asset (hence buy low, sell high). The Dodgers can either pay Furcal 4 years at a about 13-15 mill a year which they don't seem willing to do, or sign Renteria or Cabrera and possibly surrender their 1st round pick or they can trade for Jack Wilson or other available shortstops. Most GM's are reluctant to give up the draft picks so that makes the Wilson's of the world that much more attractive.

As a Pirate fan, I'd just as soon see them keep Jack Wilson as trade him if they can't acquire an attractive package for him. And personally I don't think he's that good, but he is by far the best they have and they have no one ready to replace him.

If Hu is as good as they say defensively, I would too. Most contending teams don't take that view though, they want the proven commodity and they don't have time or the patience to let a young guy develop.

I think people have a pretty distorted view of Jack Wilson's value. He was undeniably a terrible hitter his first three years in the league (2001-2003) where he typically hit .250/.300/.340. But starting in 2004, his contact skills and power have improved. Also, I think it is fair to toss out 2008 since he dealt with some pretty significant nagging injuries most of the year and his numbers were clearly not in line with what he did the previous 4 seasons.

Contact skills - his K% steadily improved early in his career:
17.9% (2001)
14.0% (2002)
13.3% (2003)
10.9% (2004)
And his K% has stayed around 10% since 2004.

Power - his power numbers (ISO) have also improved since his first 3 years in the league.
.072 (2001)
.080 (2002)
.097 (2003)
.150 (2004)
.106 (2005)
.098 (2006)
.145 (2007)

His 2004-2007 average is around .280/.325/.410. He is not a model of consistency, as he basically had 2 very good years (2004 and 2007) and 2 below-average years (2005 and 2006, though these were still better than his 2001-2003 numbers).

So since 2004, Wilson has averaged .300/.345/.450 in 2004 and 2007, which is good for a SS, and .265/.310/.370 in 2005 and 2006, which is poor for a SS (but not Izturis-level hideous).

Looking around the majors, considering both skills and contract, I have no problem saying Jack Wilson is better than the following SS:
Izturis (Jack's better offensively)
Betancourt (Jack's better offensively and defensively)
Crosby (Jack's healthier and better defensively)
Tejada (Jack's better defensively and has a better contract)
Young (horrific contract, horrific defense, bat has slid)
Vizquel (old, no bat)
Lugo (overpaid)
Jeter (way overpaid, he is not worth 2-3 times as much as Wilson)

Jack is clearly worse than the following: Hanley, Rollins, Reyes, Tulowitzki, Hardy, Drew, and Escobar.

To me, Jack is around the middle of the league for SS. Slightly below average during his lesser years (2005 & 2006) and above average during his better years (2004 and 2007).

His contract is fair for a free agent SS (better than Tejada, Young, Lugo, Jeter) and it is not fair to compare him to players who have never been eligible for free agency like Hanley, Reyes, Rollins, Escobar, Hardy, Theriot, Peralta, and Crosby. Of course those guys have better contracts, but that is largely because they haven't logged enough service time to get a better contract.

Pretending Wilson gets bought out in 2010, is paying him $7.85 million for 2009 really that much worse than paying Furcal $48 million for 4 years? Wilson's deal is much less risky, albeit without the upside.

Wilson is vastly underrated because fans routintely under-value defense and because his 2001-2003 seasons left him with a worse reputation with the bat than he deserves.

All that said, the Pirates are sounding a little greedy. Hu and another player should be enough for Wilson. If the Dodgers are playing for 2009 and 2010, Wilson is a much better be than Hu. Every win counts and flags fly forever.

Jack Wilson is a local guy (from Westlake I believe, my Dad's friends worked at West Coast Baseball School in Calabasas and he used to train there), so if we didnt have to give up 3 freakin players for him, it wouldnt be a terrible move to trade for him.

These rumors are straight up horrible for a dodger fan. Interest in WIlson and Renteria but not Cabrera? Ugh, idiots.

"wilson needs to stay with the pirates and want to kill himself everyday, cause i dont think he could be as good in the nl west"

Are you serious the NL West we are talking about the worst division in baseball. The NL Central has much better pitching I can't believe you even said that wow.

"He says the Pirates sought Hu, Delwyn Young, and a third player for Wilson. That caused talks to grind to a halt."

Wow. No $hit they ground to a halt. Wilson isn't worth Hu or Young straight up, let alone both and another. Does Neil Huntington think he is Billy Beane or something?

"Jack Wilson is a local guy (from Westlake I believe, my Dad's friends worked at West Coast Baseball School in Calabasas and he used to train there), so if we didnt have to give up 3 freakin players for him, it wouldnt be a terrible move to trade for him."

Big deal. If Wilson was really good and from the area, it would be one thing, but why sign him just for the sake of location? I went to high school with Joe Borchard, but I don't want the Dodgers to sign him because he never figured out how to play baseball in the majors.

His contract is fair for a free agent SS (better than Tejada, Young, Lugo, Jeter) and it is not fair to compare him to players who have never been eligible for free agency like Hanley, Reyes, Rollins, Escobar, Hardy, Theriot, Peralta, and Crosby. Of course those guys have better contracts, but that is largely because they haven't logged enough service time to get a better contract.

"Pretending Wilson gets bought out in 2010, is paying him $7.85 million for 2009 really that much worse than paying Furcal $48 million for 4 years? Wilson's deal is much less risky, albeit without the upside."

No no no no no no no no. Jack Wilson and Rafael Furcal do not belong in the same sentence. Furcal with the Jason Repko-induced bad ankle in 2007 was better than Jack Wilson could ever dream of. Furcal looked healthy once he came back from the back injury and there is nothing to suggest he wont produce.

"His contract is fair for a free agent SS (better than Tejada, Young, Lugo, Jeter)"

His contract is insane for someone with his skill set. The Dodgers may as well sign Omar Vizquel for half the money if they want a more marketable version of Jack Wilson.

As for your comparison with those other guys, it is nuts other than Lugo. Jeter is still a premier offensive shortstop, even if his defense is below average. Same goes for Tejada. Michael Young is a decent defender and wipes the floor with Wilson defensively.

"and it is not fair to compare him to players who have never been eligible for free agency like Hanley, Reyes, Rollins, Escobar, Hardy, Theriot, Peralta, and Crosby. Of course those guys have better contracts, but that is largely because they haven't logged enough service time to get a better contract."

You are having a laugh there. Wilson's deal was an extension with no bidding on the open market. If Hanley wanted to go get more money, he could have just gone year to year. He could have possibly out done Ryan Howard's arbitration record if he went ahead and did it.

What is a fair comparison is in performance. Wilson is nowhere near an elite shortstop because his bat is so poor. While not ever guy at the position has to be a Barry Larkin or Jimmy Rollins offense/defense hybrid, he can't be a liability with one or the other and still be considered worth the kind of money Wilson makes and the kind of prospects Huntington asked for him.

"Izturis (Jack's better offensively)"

Maicer or his brother? If it is Maicer, you have no case. If it is Cesar, sure, but he is also paid a lot less.

"Betancourt (Jack's better offensively and defensively)"

Who brought that guy up? The guy is terrible. It doesn't mean Wilson is worth the money or the prospects.

"Crosby (Jack's healthier and better defensively)"

I don't see how you can argue Wilson's health. He has had his own injury issues. I do agree that he is better than Crosby.

"Tejada (Jack's better defensively and has a better contract)"

When Wilson hits as many homers as Tejada did in his worst year, give us a call.

"Young (horrific contract, horrific defense, bat has slid)"

Do you realize the Rangers have just about a full year of the deal deferred? Also, do you know what a player of Young's caliber would get on the open market? It would be almost dead on what he is getting paid now, and they wouldn't defer the money. Also, his bat is immeasurably better than that of Wilson.

"Vizquel (old, no bat)"

Vizquel, at this point, is essentially an equal player to Jack Wilson. He still has one of the best gloves in the game and as little as 2 years ago (before hitting some unfortunate injuries) was still a better offensive player than Jack Wilson could ever dream of. Also, Vizquel is a Hall of Famer who people buy tickets to see play the game and who would make half the money Wilson is.

"Lugo (overpaid)"

Sure. Lugo sucks and has a ridiculous contract. We all know that. At least his career OBP is right about league average and he can steal bases, two things Wilson can't say.

"Jeter (way overpaid, he is not worth 2-3 times as much as Wilson)"

Ok, your post cannot have merit with a post like this. Jeter is a premier offensive shortstop. While his glove isn't much, his bat more than makes up for it. Further, his contract is a product of his environment (the Yankees) and the fact that he is one of, if not the most marketable player in the game of baseball. The Yankees make a ton of money off the guy, making him worth every penny.

"Are you serious the NL West we are talking about the worst division in baseball. The NL Central has much better pitching I can't believe you even said that wow."

Uh no. The NL West has the far better pitching, or it certainly did in 2008. Without going into bullpens, I would take Billingsley, Haren, Webb, Lowe, Peavy, Kuroda, Young, Lincecum, Cook, Jimenez, Cain and Johnson over Zambrano, Dempster, Lilly, Oswalt, Wainwright, Lohse, Sheets and 1/3 of a season of Sabathia. I would say that those two divisions are very close and can each make a claim to the best pitching in baseball, but the NL Central is far more concentrated in 1 team (the Cubs).

Forgot to mention i don't think Johnson will be in that division either

AA: How can you mock Wilson's OPB one minute then call OCab a good hitter? Cabrera has only hit above your .335 standard twice in his 12 year career, and has a career line of .322. Cabrera might have a bit more power and is a little above average defensively but Wilson is well above average defensively and an average offensive player. Twice in the last 5 years Wilson has posted an OPS+ above 100 which is really good for a SS. Cabrera hasn't done that once during the time (though he's been more consistent overall). Cabrera's defense has also been steadily declining whereas Wilson's is still among the top 10 defensively at SS. Jack Wilson also has value that can't always be quantified, he's known as a club house leader he's also considered a good 'small ball' hitter, buntting, hitting behind the runner ect. These are things that don't always appear in the stat sheet but do help his team in the win column. Also your bit about 2007 Furcal was better than 2007 Wilson is a complete fallacy, check any stat line out there furcal was BAD offensively and defensely. You also neglect to mention that Cabrera and Renteria would both cost the Dodgers their 1st round pick add to the the fact that Cabrera could command a contract in the $11 million range the value between Wilson and Cabrera seems about equal. So if the Pirates do offer to pay $2 million this year plus the buyout that wouldn't make Wilson more valuable???

Also you are completely wrong to say that Derek Jeter is worth 3 times as much as Jack Wilson. I'd take Jack Wilson and the $13 million to sign other free agents over Derek Jeter and his horrible defense. He costs his team a number of the runs that he creates.

the mild interest in renteria was later, so probably that one

srry my posts are so out of wack, didnt read the comments b4 posting

People defending a guy who has had a 77 OPS+ or lower in 6 of his 8 seasons, with a ceiling that's sub-800 OPS, is sorta ridiculous.

Okay, maybe the Wilson bashing was a little over the top, but let's not respond over the top either. Wilson might be between 10-15 plays above average defensively, which should contribute about 7-10 runs defensively. Unfortunately, he's only had TWO YEARS in which he's been more than 5 runs above REPLACEMENT level offensively.

Assuming the absolute best, you're paying nearly 8 million dollars for a guy that will get you 3 wins more. That would be fair value. The problem is that the more LIKELY scenario is getting the guy who's barely 1 win better. In addition, you will most likely be only getting one more year of Wilson, compared to 3 young players who are all cost controlled by the team for the next half decade. How is that not a steal for the Pirates? Especially for a team that's rebuilding.

The Dodgers, in the absolute best case scenario, simply get fair value for what they're PAYING Wilson. On the other hand, the Pirates get 3 cheap players for the next 5 years and a shortstop that's probably going to be Wilson's equal in a couple years anyway.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Hu and Xavier Paul for Wilson would be fair; two prospects equivalent to a first round and bonus pick in the draft. The Wilson bashing is uncalled for; not a top tier shortstop, but not Mario Mendoza (Hu has not demonstrated that he can hit as well as Mendoza) and Paul is the 5th or 6th Dodgers outfielder with Lambo, Russell, and others ready within two years. Dodgers do not want to sign a type A free agent shortstop with DeJesus ready no later than next year and they are loaded with middle infield prospects. If not Wilson, look for the Dodgers to trade Hu and Young/Paul for Crosby or Green.

Is there anything on the Phillies talk with Derek Lowe?
I suspect this initiation was just to scare Jamie Moyer but when a team contacts a player like Lowe they have to be at least thinking about it right?

Wilson was rushed to the majors. Anyone quoting things like "6 out of 8 seasons" need to re-examine my first post. He is a better hitter now than he was in his 1st 3 seasons, when he was rushed by an idiotic front office and clearly should have been in AAA. Plenty of guys that are rushed never progress offensively and never achieve their potential (Corey Patterson anyone?). It is a credit to Wilson that he was able to overcome this and improve offensively to the point where he can, overall, be an average regular.

According to Dave Cameron (Fangraphs and ussmariner), free agents are expected to make about $5 million per win above replacement level player this offseason. Wilson's defense is worth about +1.5 wins, his offense is probably about +1 or +1.5 wins once you factor in a position adjustment. So as a +2.5 to +3 win player, Wilson could expect close to $10 million per season. Not Furcal (who would be way above Wilson if he had been healthy the past few years, Furcal probably would have been close to $15-20 million if healthy), but much better than a replacement level hitter like Izturis.

mymrbig-Notice that Cameron said free agents, not what marginal wins are actually worth. Marginal wins were worth 2.5 million in 2008, soI highly doubt that skyrockets to 5 million in 2009. He's talking about the absurd free agent market, not the reality of value, which is what i'm addressing.

And yes, Wilson is "better" than when he started his career, if you can call it that. But most people should be when entering their prime years. The fact that his ceiling is capped at a value of 7-9 million dollars, and he makes around that much anyway, still makes trading for him idiotic. Especially considering the circumstances. The Pirates want to rebuild and dump salary, while McCourt doesn't want to spend any money at all.

"The Pirates want to rebuild and dump salary, while McCourt doesn't want to spend any money at all."

A rebuilding team generally doesn't need to dump salary, since they shouldn't be signing big FAs anyways, and the Pirates don't have any big contracts on the books. Thus, they should take a hint and pull a Kotsay-Devine or a Blake-Santana/Meloan and eat most/all of the salary to pry away a top prospect(s), especially with all this McCourt isn't going to spend money mess going on.

Although, I'd just play Hu if you're going for the whole all-glove, no bat thing.

"If not Wilson, look for the Dodgers to trade Hu and Young/Paul for Crosby or Green."

Where's Colletti's pink slip. Even if the A's/Padres ate all the salary (which the Padres won't do, so forget about Greene), trading that package for Crosby, regardless of if he's free, is an immediate firing. At least Hu plays good defense.

Although trading Hu + Young/Paul + player for a free Wilson is also fireable in my books, I probably do overvalue prospects/pre-arb players.

We Traded Rameriez For What?

calling our players trash?

if you got hu and young for wilson that would be a major steal. youre outside your mind if you think not.

if some how you got another dodger prospect if would be neds 2 week notice.

Hu will never be as good as Wilson. Keep him. Young will be average and we have plenty average outfielders in Pittsburgh. Unless you want Moss.