No Varitek Talks Yet For Red Sox

So what is the offer?

lota love for the "captain".

posada shouldnt even be making what he is making, that was a robbery, a white collar crime if you ask me, no catcher should get that kind of commitment, there is just so much that can happen to them

The difference between the Sox offer to Varitek and the Yankees offer to Posada is....

The Red Sox don't pay for past performance, they pay for future potential. The Yankees seem to not mind paying for past achievements.

It has nothing to do with "respect" or lack of it; it has to do with making a wise business decision that helps the organization.

Varitek has been a very average catcher the last 3 years. Posada has been a better catcher than Varitek throughout their careers, and so Posada should be paid significantly more. Posada has had an OPS higher than 850 two of the last three years and didn't this year most likely due to injury. Tek hasn't broken 790 once. Tek is one of the most overrated players in the game, and people only pay attention to him because of the lame C on his jersey.

So basically what I'm saying is the Red Sox have every right to , and SHOULD not come anywhere close to matching the Posada contract. Varitek and Posada should only be discussed as equals when you're compiling a list of people who play catcher in the AL East.

On top of that, if Varitek does NOT get a two year deal and stinks this year again, I can't imagine there will be anything for him next winter. Get the money now while you can (if you can).

"He could also take this offer, prove he is better offensively this year then he would hold the cards next year."

There's no way a 37/38 year old catcher will ever hold the cards in contract negotiations.

This is just the Sox playing hardball with Boras. Boras talks about Posada money, so the Sox start with a really low offer. They should still find some middle ground over $ and years and I bet they will get a deal done.

admittedly I don't follow the Red Sox much but when Varitek says FU to this offer where do the Sox go for their catcher?

The FA market is crap for catchers this year. ALso any thoughts by Sox fans about how it'll affect their pitching staff?

If they they try to turn to Texas to pry one of their catchers won't the price then go up astronomically?

There will be no middle ground discussing a contract with Varitek and Boras. They can throw all the numbers they want at Theo but it still won't mean anything so Varitek should take the one year offer and Varitek is no spring chicken anymore, so guys that are catchers should take whatever they can.

I'm not blaming Boras and Varitek for getting whatever they can from the Red Sox but it won't be much this time around.

dorfmac.. i assume you are talking strictly about offense because Posada doesnt compare to Varitek defensively or dealing with a pitching staff

Any Atlanta fans out there, I hear Salty is a bad defensive catcher.

Its funny how people think varitek will simply turn his nose up at this deal and the amount of money has not even come out. Like I have been saying there is zero market for him and he will end up getting his best offer from the red sox and will take it. It is the red sox choice how much they give him. The red sox might prefer him on a one year deal so they pay him a little extra and he can maintain some of his status. Win win.

i agree with dorfmac, the whole "influence on the pitcher" thing is overrated and its the card that Boras is playing to death on the Red Sox. at most, its good with rookies and youngsters but older guys are going to do what they know best. posada is better offensive cather, and is still an overall better cacther then tek, but tek is a better team player, defensive cather (which is very important for the position) and a better leader then posada

Even though this posting doesn't say it.. there could possibly be a club option added to it.. As far as the dollar amount goes, it's a non-issue at this point. Tek is being offered a contract for one of two purposes:

1. To save face for the adoring, warm and appreciative fans of the Red Sox Nation

2. To make sure that the guy they eventually get to replace Tek has at least a year to be mentored.

The candidates for this role could be one of the texas guys, but only Teagarden fits the mold and he'll be the rangers most expensive get. As far as Saltalamacchia's defensive capabilities, as a catcher, he makes a fine DH or 1B. There are other qualified young catchers out there such as Tyler Flowers, Carlos Santana, and others. They are superior defensive players and can hit. These guys won't be any less expensive in terms of prospects needed in trade.

What say you?

"Any Atlanta fans out there, I hear Salty is a bad defensive catcher."

By the statistics he is absolutely horrid.

"Posada isn't exactly the overhwelming offensive catcher some of you make him out to be. 2007 was the only time, in a thirteen year career, that he's ever hit over .300. Pull out 2007 and the two have almost identical career averages. Both Posada and Varitek have more in common with Bengie Molina, offensively, than either has ever had in common with a truly offensive minded catcher like Ivan Rodriguez."

...

OPS+ Career
Posada: 124
Pudge: 110
Varitek: 100
Molina: 88

No one goes by batting average anymore. It is a hollow stat. Posada slugs much higher, walks much more, and has been a completely better hitter than any of them (including Pudge, who is not an offensive minded catcher?)

"The difference between the Sox offer to Varitek and the Yankees offer to Posada is....

The Red Sox don't pay for past performance, they pay for future potential. The Yankees seem to not mind paying for past achievements.

It has nothing to do with "respect" or lack of it; it has to do with making a wise business decision that helps the organization."

So do you feel young players who have a good future should be the highest paid players....Do you think someone like Lincecum or Joba should get paid more than players like Santana, or if Longoria should get paid more than A-Rod? (yes I know A-Rod is overpaid already)

"" there is still a large disparity between Posada and Tek over the course of the past few years."

You know it takes 30 seconds to look of both of their stats. If you had you probably wouldn't have typed any of that."

You have to be fair and admit that Posada was the better hitter though. As you said, just look at the numbers:

Posada OPS+ from 2000-2008:
139, 117, 121, 144, 131, 109, 122, 154, 103, with a career OPS+ of 124.

Varitek OPS+ from 2000-2008:
82, 123, 90, 120, 121, 122, 83, 103, 73, with a career OPS+ of 100.

Obviously these statistics aren't too sophisticated, but they clearly show that Posada has consistently been a superior hitter than Varitek. I mean come on, Posada had four years with an OPS+ higher than Varitek's career high. Varitek may be better defensively and in the clubhouse, but at the plate Posada has been much better.

im sure this story is still true, and boras is being boras and saying they havent started negotiations because he hasnt gotten back to them about it, but then again, it is odd that we dont know anything about the money or length of the proposed deal yet

mike - what these folks are trying to get across to you is that a multi-year deal to a 37 year old catcher with diminishing offensive and defensive skills is undefensable.

phillies fan is overvaluing one situation.

Kenan and Kel:
1) We did not begin the comparison of Tek and Posada, that was Boras. We are merely examining if it's a valid comparison or not, which I think we both agree, it is not valid.
2) I stated that over the course of the past few seasons (3 or so), that Posada's offensive numbers are vastly superior. That is an inarguable fact. Twice out of the three, Posada has put up an OPS higher than 850. That's superstar quality for any position, and especially so for catcher. Even if you want to use the larger sample size of their entire careers, Posada was vastly superior, as evidenced by Scribbletone's listing of OPS+. What you are correct about is the fact that it only takes a few seconds to look up stats - a few seconds you should have taken for yourself.
3) While Tek is considered a better defensive player than Posada, it is not nearly as big a difference as you are making it out to be, and may not actually exist in the first place. According to baseball prospectus as of last year, Tek's projected DWARP (Defensive Wins Above Replacement Player) is 2.0 in 2008, 1.3 in 2009, .8 in 2010 and .5 in 2011. Over the same time period, Posada is valued at 2.3, 1.9. 1.3, 1.0. While these are just projections and not actual stats, they are from a very respected source, and these projections clearly show that this source views Posada as superior defensively as well.
4) Game calling skills: when compared to offensive skills and defensive skills, they are virtually meaningless. Ones defensive and offensive abilities have more of an impact on the game than whether one knows whether to call a fastball or a curve. The pitcher is not only the one actually making the pitches, but oftentimes, the pitcher also has the final say in the game calling, as he can shake off whatever sign the catcher is giving if he doesn't feel it's appropriate. So while the catcher's opinion is taken into account, it's by no means the final call.
5) Clubhouse: Yes, everyone views Tek as this fantastic clubhouse presence, which I'm not doubting, but is it really that much better than Posadas? This is not a question I necessarily have an answer to, but I have never heard anything about Posada being a negative influence in the clubhouse. As far as I know, he is well liked by teammates, and could very well be just as good a leader as Tek. Once again, this might have more to do with the overrated C on his shirt than actual fact.

When comparing varitek and posada you might want to factor in cost as well. Posada is anything but a bargain.

oh and I forgot the most important one calling a game. If you're not seeing all that, you're not paying attention.

If that isn't what you meant, then I appolzie, but it seems like thats what you mean at least ot me

Posted by: mike923 | November 24, 2008 at 11:29 AM

Mike, thats not what I meant, so apology accepted.

By paying for "future potential" instead of past performances I think it goes without saying that a player has to actually prove himself first; in order to be considered worthy of the "future performance" dollars that top free agents receive.**to become a free agent it 6years of service, so a player has no choice in having to prove themselves first, which is why I don't know how you became confused*

Unproven players are just that...unproven. This is also why players have stages to their careers we refer to as a beginning, a prime and a decline.

Varitek is in the decline stage. He was paid well during his late prime years with his last contract of 4 years, $10million per. Now he has moved past the late prime years and entered the decline years. The Sox simply won't pay him for what he accomplished during his prime.

With regards to Tek, the Red Sox have shown on several occasions (Damon/Pedro) that they won't pay for achievements already on the books, no matter how well regarded the player is to the city.

Sox put a cap on what Damon/Pedro would be worth over the life of the new contract. Some (Damon/Pedro mostly) felt the Sox disrespected them by not paying them for what they had already accomplished; but if you go with Hindsight, the Sox made the right call as both Damon/Pedro have broken down physically after signing their most recent deals and it could easily be argued they weren't worth their current contracts.

EWS1532,

obviously Ruiz offense is deficent, especially this year, so if Marson is as good as advertised offensively and develops well defensively then that could in the future make Ruiz expendable but earlier this year his offense was so horrible that his defense was an afterthought. now its not so much.

And i simply was quoting teams that were a game or two from the playoffs. No thought to WHO was on those teams at catcher. Obviously Mauer is one of the best cathers in either league.

If I were Theo I would try to do one of two things:

Try and sign Varitek to a one year deal and aquire Salty from Texas. Salty already said that would be a dream come true for him. Just let them split time next year and then once salty develops more let Varitek walk.
or
Sign Varitek or aquire some other mediocre catcher and try to make due until the 2010 offseason and try to wrap up Joe Mauer or Victor Martinez.

But either way Varitek should NEVER make 13 million. He can't get much worse at the dish this year, and I doubt he will get much better. Also, he doesn't play gold glove caliber catcher anymore and no one calls a game good enough for 13 million dollars!

theres more to calling a game then just putting your fingers down. you have to see which pitches are working best for the pitcher. that his mechanics are staying solid. you have to make sure he stays in a rhythm. and you have to make sure hes not pitching in any patterns that the batters that can pick up. its not just picking a pitch.

theres more to calling a game then just putting your fingers down. you have to see which pitches are working best for the pitcher. that his mechanics are staying solid. you have to make sure he stays in a rhythm. and you have to make sure hes not pitching in any patterns that the batters that can pick up. its not just picking a pitch.

Well said GeneralManager,

not to mention also knowing when/how to calm a pitcher down that's rattled and how to work a batter's tendencies against him.

if it was that easy anybody could do it.

Can't offer Tek arbitration and cut his salary by more than 20% anyway and Tek is not worth 8 million for 1 year only, so why offer anything until arbitration a must for the draft picks anyway?

I watch most sox games, intagibles are not that much, sure he's good, yet so was Fisk and Gedman for the Sox, but Boston let those 2 guys go also and contrary to some whom have posted here, the pitching staff is not going to go up by half a run per game without him, maybe with John Farrell gone, but not Tek.

If tek was all that important, then why did Farrell have to come out of the dugout and calm down aardsma, Dice-K and even Becket last season, why couldn't Tek he get control over the game while he was out there, even calling the pitches? Why does beckett even shake him off as often as he does 9including his excellent 2007 season) is it because he does not 100% trust his game calling?

Just something to think about.

Again, there was a very large study that proved game calling skills in catchers is virtually meaningless. I would also take what players say with a grain of salt. I'm sure many players also believe that clutch exists and Derek Jeter is one of the best players in the league. That is no knock on them, but they are blinded by the fact that they play the game to some parts of it (which is a bit ironic).

Mike Matheny was revered as THE best game caller in baseball and an outstanding defensive catcher. While he was the latter, he actually had a HIGHER ERA with the Giants when he came from St. Louis than other catchers in the organization (Benito Santiago and a few others I believe). It isn't a repeatable skill to have a positive or negative effect on the pitching staff other than through how many baserunners you throw out or wildpitches/etc you prevent.

Guys will go from the best in the league one year to the worst the next. It is not consistant at all and is a meaningless part of studying a player effect.

If i was Theo I would offer Varitek a 2 Year deal worth 7 million dallors(3.5 Per year) with a Club option for a third year worth 3 Million dallars

anyone agree??

Someone pointed out that the Sox have to offer him arbitration to get draft picks if he signs someplace else. That means they must offer him at least $8 Million (20% less then previous salary is the limit for arbitation offers) or they get nothing should he sign someplace else.

To me, that means the Red Sox will offer Tek 1yr with a team option for a 2nd with at total contract value in the $17-20 Million total including the option year. (or $8.5-10 per season)

Should Tek refuse the offer, they will then be able to offer arbitration at $8 million knowing he won't accept.

Basically, they have to make an offer to him before they offer arbitration so they know where they stand.

Once this is cleared up they can move forward on plans to acquire a catcher via trade.

The question is, will they be doing it with Varitek to tutor the young guy, or will they need to up the anti to get a better young catcher not in need of guidance because Tek is gone.

To Cyyoung and EWS1532:

Satalamacchia can still be on the roster with Varitek AND Cash. People in here forget Salty can play 1b. He can take Casey's spot on the roster. It would be a huge luxury to have a C who can also play another position.

striker,

Calling the game is not only telling the pitcher what to through, but knowing which would be the best pitch at the best time to tell the pitcher. Varitek not only is incredible at reading the pitcher's strengths and weaknesses as the game progresses but also is ridiculous at knowing a batter's weaknesses. It is said that Varitek spends more time on researching batters then anyone in the game times two. The guy knows exactly whatthe pitcher should through much better then any of the pitchers. Schilling keeps notebooks on all the batters he has faced and records of what they have done with each pitch they saw and he listens to Varitek over his own knowledge because he trusts Tek. Tek is only the third captain in Sox history behind Pesky and Yaz, and that is for a reason. While the pitcher can shake off the cal at any time, look back at some classic games and try to see how many times they shake off Varitek. Barely ever.

**throw

Stricker, hit the nail on the head, this crap about catchers calling a game is WAY,WAY,WAY, too overated. Major league teams send scouts out to teams they are about to play to see how players are hitting before they come to next series. Problem with curve, dont hit good on up and in, etc. All teams do this, makes catchers job that much easier. OK now everybody in major leagues knows certain guy has problem with curveball he bails out. Catcher calls curve, pitcher throws hanging curve, batter slugs it a country mile. Then if what is said here is true about catchers calling the game making a difference, why take pitcher out, take catcher out for calling that pitch. The point is, it is the execution of pitches that makes the difference not catcher, calling game. ALL MAJOR LEAGUE CATCHERS DO WHAT VARITEK DOES.

Good point GrandmasterB,
I am not trying Bash Jason Varitek, just trying to point out Red Sox baseball will go on with or without Jason Varitek.

I know Varitek is valuable to the Red Sox. But Boras shouldnt be holding Varitek up to Posada contract wise because even Posada shouldnt have received the money he got from the Yankees, he's only worth about 2/3 of that.

I say, offer Varitek 8 million and just get it done already because I would hate to be Varitek and get passed on by the team that he has bled for through his career simply because his agent is a scum bag.

"Tim McCarver said it best:"

Tim McCarver has never said anything best.

there are a lot of pitchers out there who dont really like to think when theyre on the mound. they just like to get the sign and throw that pitch. thats a ton of faith in the catcher to call a good pitch.

Dude, just stop...everything written in the last 2 days has been proven as false. The writers are all trying to "break" stories, and are reporting false news, and it's being reported as fact.

Haha.

Touché Tim, Touché!

Why would the sox not offer arbitration? They could probably use him for one more year and its not like 8-9 million is a terrible deal for them. Maybe a couple extra mil above what they would want him at but highly worth it for a shot at the draft picks and the freedom to move on next year.

Bingo. For every guy like Lester you mention, I can throw another out like Beckett, Buchholz, etc. who have electric stuff and actually regressed last year.

one day perhaps we will all realize that "Rumors" are actually part of the business posturing by both the Front Offices and the Agents.

In the case of Varitek; it is very much in the Red Sox favor to get a rumor out there that they were only offering 1 year.

For Boras, it is very important he refute that Varitek only got a 1 year offer from his team of 12 years.

Afterall, if it was confirmed by Boras, he would not be able to command anything from other teams.

At the same time, if the Red Sox confirm the report, they put themselves in the doghouse with the ongoing negotiations; so they deny it as well.

This works the same as the other rumors out there where Agents leak a false rumor in an attempt to drum up action on a client.

Thanks to the readership of rumors these days and the coverage, I truly believe Agents/Front Offices are now using this outlet to try and gain some leverage.

Its good business really and I am suprised it has taken both the Agents/Teams this long to figure out how to work the rumor mill system to their advantage.

04Forever: "its still odd we dont know the numbers of the deal yet"

Not so odd, actually. Theo is much tighter lipped than anyone at the White House.

EWS1532: "little bear - that's what you call a "cherry pick""

Guilty as charged. On the other hand, Varitek has caught more no-hitters than any man alive.

For the most part, Red Sox pitchers just trust him to call the game because he knows more than they do. The main exception being Beckett, when he's being especially pig-headed and thinks he can just overpower everyone with fastballs.

I predict 2 years, 10.5 million for Tek, and trade for a young catcher to teach (probably not from Texas).

EWS1532: "little bear - that's what you call a "cherry pick""

Guilty as charged. On the other hand, Varitek has caught more no-hitters than any man alive.

LB - he was a lucky SOB and i hope he kept his cleats

080808 - i was not the one who made the comment about the no hitters..

the dialogue got lost in translation.