Stark On Peavy, Oswalt, Phillies, DeRosa, Giants

Chris Young seems like a good bet to be dealt, although I haven't heard any rumors about him. He makes a good deal of money, is fairly young and cheap, and can strike guys out. If the Padres can't even afford Jody Gerut, I would think they are probably looking to deal Young and could probably get a decent player (Jason Donald?) or two for him.

It's not difficult to judge francour's trade value at all. It doesn't exist. There may be some teams with interest if he's DFA'd, but the only thing I can see a team giving up for him is a bad contract.

That would be no where near the best rotation ever, not even the best in baseball.

Dan Uggla is worth more than Sanchez, and I would think the Marlins wouldn't want him anyways.

The Giants should pack it in soon. They have no chance this year and should start to sell.
Winn would be a good piece for someone.

Molina is a tad overrated and most likely stays.

Lewis is bad and they should see if someone wants to take him.
Renteria and Rowand are there for the long haul.

The Mets should let Murphy play 1st. Let Sheffield play LF and platoon as they see fit.

"Not that the Padres aren't hurting for money but does anyone really think that the Giants have the prospects to pull this off, or would the Padres even trade Peavy within the division?

Posted by: RoyHobbs | May 28, 2009 at 02:57 PM"

UH yeah the Giants have the prospects. If they really wanted to they could trade for Gonzales and Peavy and have kids to spare.

Its never going to happen though.

Make soemthing happen Amaro Jr.

Ruben needs to get something done of substance. especially if Brett is out any serious length of time. I'm tempted to want them to bring up Carlos even though he's struggled. Remember he struggled in AA last year through an injury and then his last half dozen or so starts in AAA were great and he pitched to a below 2 ERA. I'd hate to give up him to start with if he turns out to be just what we need.

very true about CC.i wouldnt want to pay the kings ransom for Lee. i am thinking the phils go after Chris Young, Brad Penny, or Bedard.

also the phils might have to have a back up plan for Moyer there is only so many times you can put him on the mound. i know he has been good as of late but if he falls into the a rut they might have to make 2 deals or hope that carrasco is ready.

alot of this speculation might come down to what happens with Myers if he out for a prolong time you almost have to make a deal because i do not want to see Chan Ho in the rotation.

Brad Penny should be a salary dump. If somebody gives the Sox a decent prospect back I would be amazed.

Recall that Carlos Lee took a smaller offer from Houston rather than play in San Francisco. Although IMO he'd be a great match in SF (if only he played MI) I put the odds at about 2%.

This is unrelated I know but just out of curiosity where would you rank JJ among top pitchers to build around, not top in the game but as a guy to build around, right now. He is only 23, 4-2 this year with a 2.07era(if you watch braves games u know he should be 8-1) and his career line goes 20-13 3.44era in 48 starts

There is a very big difference between four people who have won Cy Youngs, and four people who are capable of winning Cy Youngs. If the Giants traded for Peavy, they would have two of the later. Its laughable to mention present day Johnson and Zito as positives in a rotation purported to be the best in baseball.

IMO, Peavy's going to be traded to one of 3 teams: the Cubs, Angels or Dodgers.

I don't see the Angels as a realistic fit because once Escobar comes back, they will stacked with a rotation of Lackey, Santana, Weaver, Saunders and Escobar. They'll even have Palmer in AAA in reserve, who has pitched ok for them.

In regards to the Cubs, my understanding is they first need to get an okay from new ownership to take on Peavy's salary before they could even negotiate and I am not sure when that ownership transition is finalized OR if new ownership would want to take on Peavy's salary.

Plus, the Cubs are not particulary short on starters as it is.

Meanwhile, the Dodgers are aggressively looking for a starter, have the prospects to deal for Peavy and have the payroll room to accomodate him.

I think the Padres get desperate at the trade deadline to unload Peavy and deal him to the Dodgers for 4 or 5 prospects.

Probably a deal centered around James McDonald, Scott Elbert, Chin-lung Hu and probably another low level starting pitching prospect.

Once Moorad puts the ultimatum out to Towers to trade Peavy, Towers will be forced to take the best offer available and I don't see any of the other teams on Peavy's list being desperate enough to come even close to my proposed offer.

Padres get 2 or 3 starting pitching prospects and the infield prospect they want.

Seems pretty logical to me.

Then on Aug. 1 the Dodgers can unveil their new rotation of:

RHP Peavy
LHP Kershaw
RHP Billingsley
LHP Wolf
RHP Kuroda

Maybe they also add another reliever and then the Dodgers are really in business!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?sort=runsFactor&season=2009

zito has been respectable this year. he has an era right around 4 and is averaging 6ip per start. He and Lincecum just need to switch contracts and then all would be even

the deal he offered, that would get accepted IF the cubs cant make a trade, Peavy still wont go to the AL and the ownership says get rid of him. The first deal is at least a good starting point. The deal you offered would be too much. We give up Mcdonald, agreed. If it was Lindblom, i feel he is the 3rd best pitching prospect behind McDonald and Withrow(Martin is too young to be in this catergory yet, even though im excited to see him grow). And Lambo/DeJesus are the top 2 non-pitching prospects in the system. given that we would have to face them 15-18 times a yr, the dodgers wouldnt give up that much.

A deal could look like this:

Peavy for McDonald, Elbert, Hu, and DeWitt.

"Yeah, even as someone who roots for the Sox, I thought that was a pretty poor offer for San Diego. Poreda is a great arm, but there's a decent chance that he ends up in the bullpen, and Richard's upside is fairly limited."

Eh sorry I should of not made that seem so negative. Poreda slings gas right at you, but I never saw him throw a decent breaking ball.

But yeah Towers must be in a really bad place right now, you know hes distraught about not taking the offers during this offseason.

"Probably a deal centered around James McDonald, Scott Elbert, Chin-lung Hu and probably another low level starting pitching prospect."

When you consider the fact that the Dodgers play in the same division as San Diego, I would expect them to want much more in a deal than that.

My guess is that the Dodgers would want McDonald, Lindblom/Elbert, Lambo/DeJesus and a fourth solid prospect on top of that, with the quality of the prospect depending on which other players the Padres choose to have in the offer."

I rather hold on to the kids and promote Lindblom, DFA Mota, and Begin to stretch out Troncoso.

"For the nucklehead who said the Giants wouldn't have the best SP in baseball with Peavy...you are absolutely nuts..."
OMG.. Your so annoying.

Okay buddy if the Giants had the best staff in the league they would win the division.
The 88 Dodgers couldn't out hit a beer league softball team, and yet their Pitching and Defense carried that team.

"DodgerFANS...get over yourself...Your team is not that good..."

I assume you think your team is however?

DodgerFANS...get over yourself...Your team is not that good...don't talk crap about the Giants either....we've played 9 games with you so far and won 4 of the last 6. Remember over the past 2 years we've finished the season .500 against each other, so go eat crow!!! I said it in the beginning of the year and I'll say it now: Phillies vs. Red Sox in the World Series this year....the key for the Sox will be Smoltz coming back in June and the Phillies getting a SP for the stretch like they have the past 3 seasons (MOYER, LOHSE, BLANTON).

Posted by: sfgiantsfan | May 28, 2009 at 04:55 PM

Yeah, you are so right. 33-15 is such a terrible record. I'm guessing you think with one big bat acquired that the Giants would be better? Not even close. The Dodgers are getting back Kuroda in a couple weeks (maybe sooner), which is the equivalent to a trade for a number 2 pitcher, then Manny back in a month, which is the power bat we have been lacking since he's been gone (duh).

THEN the Dodgers are still in the market for a big number 1 starting pitcher. That means someone the likes of Halladay (doubtful), Peavy, Oswalt, Lee, and I've heard Harang. If there is a deal pulled off without giving up any major leaguers, this team is going to be scary.

1. Furcal (the law of averages says he will get much better)
2. Hudson (should get a bit worse, but .300/.370/.450 is very doable)
3. Manny
4. Ethier (Im sure he goes back to 4 once Manny is back whether he is hitting or not)
5. Blake
6. Loney
7. Kemp
8. Martin
9. Pitcher

1. Billingsley
2. Kuroda
3. Wolf
4. Kershaw
5. Stults/Weaver/Milton

That rotation is even without a pitcher that the Dodgers are most undoubtely going to trade for. This doesnt necessarily mean a Peavy/Halladay/Oswalt, it could be a Harang type, which would be much better than Stults/Weaver/Milton.

SFGiantsFan, with the grammar you've used and your skewed and biased opinion on the Dodgers, your post was a bit of a joke.

"the deal he offered, that would get accepted IF the cubs cant make a trade, Peavy still wont go to the AL and the ownership says get rid of him. The first deal is at least a good starting point. The deal you offered would be too much. We give up Mcdonald, agreed. If it was Lindblom, i feel he is the 3rd best pitching prospect behind McDonald and Withrow(Martin is too young to be in this catergory yet, even though im excited to see him grow). And Lambo/DeJesus are the top 2 non-pitching prospects in the system. given that we would have to face them 15-18 times a yr, the dodgers wouldnt give up that much."

That's fair enough, I would understand if the Dodgers didn't want to make that kind of deal.

But I really think that it would take that kind of offer to get it done.

I really think it would take something like McDonald, Elbert, DeJesus/Lambo and fourth prospect.

I'll back off and say that you're right about Lindblom, I doubt that they deal both Lindblom and McDonald in the same deal.

But realistically, I don't see why the Pads would accept a McDonald, Elbert, Hu and DeWitt offer. That's some REALLYYYY limited upside..

The Mets should really look into getting Adam Dunn from the nationals. In my opinion, this is a guy they should of signed in the off season. Yeah, he strikes out alot, but so does Ryan Howard and we all know how that ended up. By getting Dunn, put him in the outfield with Sheff and Beltran and keep Murphy at 1st base until Delgado comes back..

Reyes
Castillo
Beltran
Dunn
Wright
Sheffield
Murphy
Santos
Pitcher

When Delgado comes back

Reyes
Castillo
Beltran
Delgado
Wright
Dunn
Sheffield
Santos
Pitcher

That is a pretty stacked and formidable lineup

I really think it would take something like McDonald, Elbert, DeJesus/Lambo and fourth prospect.

I'll back off and say that you're right about Lindblom, I doubt that they deal both Lindblom and McDonald in the same deal.

But realistically, I don't see why the Pads would accept a McDonald, Elbert, Hu and DeWitt offer. That's some REALLYYYY limited upside.."

I wouldnt call Elbert, DeWitt, and even McDonald limited upside. Elbert will be a great lefty reliever or at least a #3 lefty starter. He relieve well, but we are seeing if he can be a starter. McDonald can be either a #3 or another great late game reliever. His future, IMO, seems to be a starter, but he was dominate late last yr. DeWitt showed last yr what he CAN do in the majors at the start. As he gets more time under his belt, at the plate and at 2B, he can be a good player. He has a body type that scouts have said could project as a 20 HR player. a similar player to Kent, with less power, but better defense.

With your thought about the deal, i understand what you are saying. a deal with McDonald, Elbert, Hu, and Lambo should get it done. My guess is that that is the highest the dodgers would go, IMO

"DodgerFANS...get over yourself...Your team is not that good...don't talk crap about the Giants either....we've played 9 games with you so far and won 4 of the last 6. Remember over the past 2 years we've finished the season .500 against each other, so go eat crow!!! "

Nice argument skills! I really enjoy the use of logic and proper grammer!

The point is that as of right now the Dodgers are in the conversation as one of the best teams in baseball. While the Giants are what they have been for the past handful of seasons, at best utterly average. They do have a good rotation (however, the Big Unit has been a bit of a dissapointment so far--very inconsistient, Sanchez is having terrible control issues, and Zito is pitching way over his own head right now), but they have problems in just about each and every category.

The bullpen is shaky, especially with Wilson's performance thus far (maybe its time for the mullet-hawk to go--just saying!), their defense has been less than average, and many other commentors have put the offense into perspective. All in all, the Giants will need to acquire at least 2 big bats (something like Holliday and Uggla) without losing any members of their starting rotation to be anything other than a .500 team.

Otherwise, this team will do exactly what it is doing now, losing too many 1 run games and remain at about the .500 mark. As of right now it is "highly illogical" (nod to the new Star Trek movie : )) to even mention the two teams in the same breath. That is unless you are discussing the 9 games that seperate them in the standings.

'So did Kuo's arm blow up again or what?'

Kuo wasnt able to warm up multiple times. they shut him down with the elbow, but i know nothing else. they said he didnt blow it out, again, but it was the problem

I will start this post off by setting the record straight and getting it out there before anyone can make any crazy ass assumptions… I am a Giants fan. Have been my whole life and will be my whole life…

With that out of the way, where do I begin?

I have heard many Giants and Dodgers fans bickering back and forth about who’s rotation is better and whether the Giants would have the lineup to compete for the West if they traded for a big bat. Here is my two cents.

Who has the better rotation?

The Giants, by 1 length, and I am not being biased. Let’s look at the structure of each staff. The Giants have a proven ace (Lincecum), the Dodgers do not. You could make the argument for Billingsly, but despite his great start to this season and amazing stats, he still hasn’t proven that he can handle the load of an ace for the entire season. The Giants have a veteran presence (Johnson) in the rotation to mentor and impart wisdom to the younger guns in the rotation while still providing good stats and providing wins, the Dodgers do not. I mean come on, are you seriously going to say that Jared Weaver or Randy Wolf are those guys? We’re not talking about Randy Wolf of the Wolf-Pack days here.
The Giants and Dodgers both have young, unpolished pitchers in Sanchez and Kershaw. Kershaw gets the edge because of his composure on the mound, but Sanchez has one of the highest swing-and-miss rates in baseball which gives him hope for the future and makes him a great trade prospect. Both teams have good pitchers that were once excellent pitchers in Zito and Wolf. Wolf is still the same pitcher he was when he was throwing for the Astros and Zito has been beyond awful thus far through his contract, but if any body out there saw him throw every inning that he has thrown this year, you would see a COMPLETELY different pitcher than the Giants had the last two years. He is establishing his fastball (or lack there of) on the inside corner and has the snap to his curve that got him the Cy Young in Oakland. Given he is 1-5, but as someone stated before he does have the lowest run support in the majors. Then that leaves 2 pitchers for the Dodgers (Kuroda and Weaver) and 1 for the Giants, (Cain). As far as I’m concerned, Kuroda is just another Japanese import that has a smooth deliver, great mechanics and excellent control. The downfall of that is that he is a niche pitcher… nothing more. He will get 10-15 wins a year and have an ERA around 4, but he will have numerous starts during each season where he gets his tits lit because of a lack of control. Weaver is Weaver. He throws up that side arm sinker, gets people out, but if his stuff isn’t on he is gas on the fire. With that being said, both of them are excellent for the rotation the Dodgers have. Kuroda will get you quality starts and plenty of great outings, and Weaver is a very acceptable number 5.
The thing that sets apart these two excellent pitching staffs is Cain. He has Cy Young stuff, and is starting to show it consistently this year. I once saw a baseball tonight episode a year or 2 back where Peter Gammons was given a choice of what pitcher to build a staff around and he said Cain (fact). He has thrown two 1-hitters in his short career (one at Wrigley and one at home) and what most people don’t realize is that he is the YOUNGEST pitcher on the staff.
Like any true blooded fan, I am biased, but you can’t deny the fact that the Giants have a better staff than the Dodgers, even if it is just by a little bit.

Can the Giants win the West with another bat?

….This conversation is over

The only way the Giants win the west is if the Dodgers plane crashes into the Hollywood hills or their offense somehow discovers the fountain of offense. The Dodgers lineup is disgustingly good. Casey Blake is the number 8 hitter for Christ sake. Not to mention they had the best offseason signing in the majors with Orlando Cabrera. The Giants will have to wait until Buster Posey, Angel Villiona and Connor Gillespie come up, or they sign at least 2 more bats before they can compete with the offense the Dodgers have put on the field.

I do feel that the Giants can make the playoffs though if their pitching holds up and they get a bat. You never know how the wildcard will turn out. If I had to bet my life savings on them making the playoffs, I absolutely would not… but crazier stuff has happened.

"Who has the better rotation?

The Giants, by 1 length, and I am not being biased. Let’s look at the structure of each staff. The Giants have a proven ace (Lincecum), the Dodgers do not. You could make the argument for Billingsly, but despite his great start to this season and amazing stats, he still hasn’t proven that he can handle the load of an ace for the entire season. The Giants have a veteran presence (Johnson) in the rotation to mentor and impart wisdom to the younger guns in the rotation while still providing good stats and providing wins, the Dodgers do not. I mean come on, are you seriously going to say that Jared Weaver or Randy Wolf are those guys? We’re not talking about Randy Wolf of the Wolf-Pack days here.
The Giants and Dodgers both have young, unpolished pitchers in Sanchez and Kershaw. Kershaw gets the edge because of his composure on the mound, but Sanchez has one of the highest swing-and-miss rates in baseball which gives him hope for the future and makes him a great trade prospect. Both teams have good pitchers that were once excellent pitchers in Zito and Wolf. Wolf is still the same pitcher he was when he was throwing for the Astros and Zito has been beyond awful thus far through his contract, but if any body out there saw him throw every inning that he has thrown this year, you would see a COMPLETELY different pitcher than the Giants had the last two years. He is establishing his fastball (or lack there of) on the inside corner and has the snap to his curve that got him the Cy Young in Oakland. Given he is 1-5, but as someone stated before he does have the lowest run support in the majors. Then that leaves 2 pitchers for the Dodgers (Kuroda and Weaver) and 1 for the Giants, (Cain). As far as I’m concerned, Kuroda is just another Japanese import that has a smooth deliver, great mechanics and excellent control. The downfall of that is that he is a niche pitcher… nothing more. He will get 10-15 wins a year and have an ERA around 4, but he will have numerous starts during each season where he gets his tits lit because of a lack of control. Weaver is Weaver. He throws up that side arm sinker, gets people out, but if his stuff isn’t on he is gas on the fire. With that being said, both of them are excellent for the rotation the Dodgers have. Kuroda will get you quality starts and plenty of great outings, and Weaver is a very acceptable number 5.
The thing that sets apart these two excellent pitching staffs is Cain. He has Cy Young stuff, and is starting to show it consistently this year. I once saw a baseball tonight episode a year or 2 back where Peter Gammons was given a choice of what pitcher to build a staff around and he said Cain (fact). He has thrown two 1-hitters in his short career (one at Wrigley and one at home) and what most people don’t realize is that he is the YOUNGEST pitcher on the staff.
Like any true blooded fan, I am biased, but you can’t deny the fact that the Giants have a better staff than the Dodgers, even if it is just by a little bit."

Oh, where do i begin? Billingsley is an ace. Yes he is, dont say he isnt. In the last 2 yrs(and this one), he has been 12-5, 16-10, and 6-2. he has had an ERA+ of 142.3. Lincecum's has been 141. Billingsley has a better so/bb ratio. Billingsley last 3 seasons ERA have been 3.31, 3.14, 2.82. Lincecums has been 4.00, 2.62, 3.03. Billingsley has had better stats, and he is a year younger.

Johnson is a great person to mentor young lefties, as is Zito. As is Randy Wolf. He is having an amazing season and Kershaw has said he has had numerous conversations about pitching and getting advice from Wolf. Wolf has had 7 no decisons, tied for the league lead. His ERA+ is 144, with his ERA is 3.02. He is a great fit for the dodgers.

Please dont start with Zito having found his nich. he is 1-5, and we know he has no run support. However, his ERA is 4.02, his ERA+ is 111, and his SO/BB ratio is 1.54, with about 6 K/9, but 4 BB/9. he is no longer a good pitcher.

Weaver is not our 5th starter. He is pitching because McDonald couldnt handle it yet, and Kuroda got injured. He is our bullpen guy, who has made 2 starts. He is a much better middle reliever than starter. Also, we have Jeff, not Jered. If we had Jered, we would have a second ace.

Kuroda is just as good as Cain, with Cain having the chance to become better because of age. However, Kuroda had a 3.73ERA, 2 CG, a 114ERA+, he walked only 2.1/9, with a 2.76 SO/BB ratio. Cain had 3.76 ERA, 1 CG, a 116 ERA+, 3.8BB/9, and a 2.04 SO/BB ration. his WHIP was 1.364, Kuroda's was 1.216. I didnt include W/L because both had bad ones, partly because of lack of run support.

We didnt sign Orlando Cabrera, we signed Orlando Hudson, very different.

i'm a giants fan who's not into splitting hairs. anyone who understands the concept of a win-loss record knows that the dodgers are the best team in baseball. it's not arguable. and pointless, giants fans, to worry if our roto is better than theirs. it's REALLY GOOD--and that's all that matters. dodger fan, i hate your team, and i hate that it's a contender. because it is a contender (fact). the giants need to focus on 2010. there's no reason to shoot high this year, when, if Sabean makes the right moves between now and Feb 2010, SF could have more than an outside shot at October. and an outside shot is something the giants dont have now, and wont have, unless they decide to empty the farm system. think about it: is one big bat going to turn burris, rowand, and lewis into clutch playoff-calibre hitters? whatever happens happens, but i, for one, want to watch posey, villalona, bumgarner, alderson, and all the rest play on 3rd street, and not for someone else.

p.s. sanchez should be dealt though.

I usually like to get in these arguments but honestly the Dodgers as much as I hate to say it are one of the best teams in baseball if not the best.

the only hope I have for the Giants this year is the Wild Card and we are only 3 1/2 games back so it could happen if we still add a power bat.

as for the whole pitching argument

Lincecum is better than Billingsley

Cain is better than Kuroda

Kershaw is better than Johnson

Wolf is better than Zito but he has been good

Sanchez is better than whoever their 5th starter is

I usually like to get in these arguments but honestly the Dodgers as much as I hate to say it are one of the best teams in baseball if not the best.

the only hope I have for the Giants this year is the Wild Card and we are only 3 1/2 games back so it could happen if we still add a power bat.

as for the whole pitching argument

Lincecum is better than Billingsley

Cain is better than Kuroda

Kershaw is better than Johnson

Wolf is better than Zito but he has been good

Sanchez is better than whoever their 5th starter is

Posted by: Bleacher_bum_SF | May 28, 2009 at 08:11 PM

Lol, you say Sanchez is better than anyone we might have without even knowing. I would say stults is our 5th guy when Kuroda gets back, and I'd be willing to bet Stults has done better than Sanchez so far this season.

I would agree Lincecum>Billingsley, but its so much closer than anyone thinks. I mean Giant fans, really take a look at Billingsley's stats. He is a bonifide stud.

Cain has been very good this season, and I'd give the edge to him over Kuroda, but as said earlier in here, Kuroda's 08 was just as good if not slightly better than Cain's 08.

Zito is pitching well so far, but Wolf is having a really nice season.

Kershaw has been dominant in all but 4 starts, where, in those starts, he was shelled in colorado, shelled in Houston, hit hard in Philly, and yesterday's start where he gave up 3 in colorado. I just wish he pitched at home all the time, he would be insane, haha.

And with just checking Stults vs. Sanchez, both have been about average (101 ERA+ to 97 ERA+ in the order posted), but then both with over 1.500 whips (ouch).

I think I said it before the season started that the Giants might have the best rotation in the NL, and maybe baseball. I still think they have top 3.

Kershaws ERA is 4.34, so dont claim that hes anywhere near Matt Cain"

take away 2 starts, one in Houston and one in Colorado, then his ERA is more like 3.50

"Lol, you say Sanchez is better than anyone we might have without even knowing. I would say stults is our 5th guy when Kuroda gets back, and I'd be willing to bet Stults has done better than Sanchez so far this season.
Posted by: Ivdown | May 28, 2009 at 08:27 PM"

I know who you guys have. i said whoever because you guys have used like 3 different guys in that spot this year. whoever meaning weaver/stults/milton etc. im sure Estes will be up sometime too lol

"billingsley is a bona fide stud. without a cy young.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 08:30 PM

Lol. Barry Zito has a Cy Young. Randy Johnson has like 5. Are either of them ace pitchers right now? Nnnnnooopeeeee.

Posted by: Ivdown | May 28, 2009 at 08:37 PM"

nobody ever said they were ace pitchers right now

In August the Braves will probably have the best pitching staff in baseball, but that's considering JJ will continue pitching well and that Hanson won't be a bust.

all i'm saying is that lincecum and billingsley, the "aces" of the two rotations, aren't just separated by a little bit. it's a cy young. don't worry about what Zito did, because it was a few years back. it's not relevant now. what's relevant is that lincecum's the defending NL Cy (fact). billingsley has zero cys (fact). it's not really up for argument who's better. Lincecum has the hardware, billingsley doesn't. sabermetricize all you want.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 08:53 PM

Are you kidding me? I mean seriously? Bartolo Colon has a Cy Young. Would you say he is better than Dan Haren? Better yet, would you say his 2005 Cy Young winning year is better than either of Haren's last 2 full seasons (07 or 08)?

You are the basest of fan if you think awards decide who is better than who, especially when not just talking about 1 year, and rather 3 years.

Would you say Derek Jeter is a great fielder because he has won gold gloves? If so, then dang.

These are the stats btwn Lincecum and Billz. The last 2 yrs and this one is included, as that is when they were both in the league at the same time:

Billingsley is an ace. Yes he is, dont say he isnt. In the last 2 yrs(and this one), he has been 12-5, 16-10, and 6-2. he has had an ERA+ of 142.3. Lincecum's has been 141. Billingsley has a better so/bb ratio. Billingsley last 3 seasons ERA have been 3.31, 3.14, 2.82. Lincecums has been 4.00, 2.62, 3.03. Billingsley has had better stats, and he is a year younger

i would say that Bartolo Colon was the best pitcher in 2005. only one other pitcher (the other Cy winner) was as good or better than Colon in 05. dont split hairs. who has the Cy TODAY? i know that past Cy's dont matter. but this is LAST year's Cy. Is Philly NOT the defending World Champ? Do they NOT have to be unseated? Or are they all of a sudden NOT the DEFENDING champs because the dodgers have the best 09 record?

W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO

29 11 3.14 68 67 2 1 0 0 438.2 363 165 153 24 10 168 499= Lincecum career

41 21 3.26 106 78 2 1 0 1 504.2 461 198 183 37 18 232 470= Billingsley career

not take take away anything from Billingsley, hes a real stud, but I think the numbers show Lincecum is better.
Not by much, dont throw a fit dodger fans
but Lincecum is better

they are the same age but Billingsley has been pitching a few seasons
last year was Tim's 1st season and he obviously made an immediate impact

Johan Santana was better in 05 than Bartolo, he just happened to win 21 games while Santana did not win more than 20, and that really matters to the voters because you and they have the same mindset.

Did I ever say Billingsley should have the 08 Cy Young because he has done better this season than Lincecum? Your phillies analogy makes no sense.

john smith is the defending NL Cy Young. ryan clark is not, and has not yet won a Cy Young. who would you rather have?

they are the same age but Billingsley has been pitching a few seasons
last year was Tim's 1st season and he obviously made an immediate impact"

look at the stats i put on, they show a much more equal playing field. It really doesnt matter who won the cy last yr. Lincecum is an AMAZING pitcher, but to say he is lengths ahead of Billingsley is, well, idiotic.

i never said billingsley wasnt good or will never be good. hes hella good. hes cy young MATERIAL. there is an ESSENTIAL difference between cy young MATERIAL and cy young WINNERS. Lincecum has proven he can go beyond being Cy MATERIAL and be a WINNER. billingsley has seen october, he's got loads of legitmacy, stats et al., all to go along with an empty trophy cabinet. the point is that Lince is in a club that Billingsley isn't in yet.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:12 PM

If you are talking just literally about awards, then sure, I'm with you. I just hope you do not think awards=better, reguardless of player.

I meant Lincecum's first Full season

Posted by: Bleacher_bum_SF | May 28, 2009 at 09:14 PM

Ah ok, I said something about that before I saw you post this.

paulcbarrera

I don't mean to say you are ignorant or anything, but other people have given good examples of awards being almost meaningless. That's not to say Lincecum didn't deserve last years Cy Young, or that he wasn't the best pitcher in the NL. Lincecum was one of the 2 best pitchers in the NL last year (I liked Santana better, but that's most likely the bias of being a Dodger fan), and has an amazing future.

Just don't tell me Lincecum is better than anyone because of an award.

and i dont need the stats, because you already posted them. look at your own post for the numbers. and we dont know who will end up better in 09. all you need to know is that bills was an also ran last year and, if he's cy-less this year, he'll again be an also ran. unless he wins the ring.

"ncecum is better than billingsley because he's a giant.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:46 PM "

You really didn't say that?

Colon had no business winning in 05, and I really like the Angels.

Oh btw the only thing that matters at the of the season is if your in the playoffs.

lincecum is better than billingsley because he's a giant.

and i dont need the stats, because you already posted them. look at your own post for the numbers. and we dont know who will end up better in 09. all you need to know is that bills was an also ran last year and, if he's cy-less this year, he'll again be an also ran. unless he wins the ring.

These last 2 posts were just dumb. stop posting, you are SOOO biased, its not even close

yeah, im biased, guy whose handle is lakersdodgersyankees4life.

all-star starter, cy young, these are all like IBO or WBF titles. if you have one, youre a titlist, and could possibly be the best pound for pound. im pointing out that bills isnt even a titlist.

your guy needs a cy.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:58 PM

and your guy needs a position player that can hit his way out of a paper bag.

You say Lince is better than Billingsley because he's a Giant is as dumb as me saying Jimmy Rollins is as good as hanely Ramirez because he's a phillie. haha. NO.

I haven't looked at the stats but I'm sure part of the reason the dodgers pitching is doing so well JUST MIGHT have something to do w/ the run support they receive. We all know the Giants staff gets as close to zero as possible in this category (as most of you know this has a large impact mentally for the pitching staff and hugely affects game situations). I understand a coupe of the dodger pitchers are studs, I've seen 'em pitch for a while now, but if you tell me you wouldn't like to trade staffs, well... you'd be lying.

standtall, the dodgers are winning because we have 2 lock down relievers, have scored more runs w/o manny than with him and we have the greatest run differential. Now, our offense has helped in 1/2 of that, but our pitchers have been making the pitches when they need to.

These are your quotes, i wanna prove a point:

hardware isn't important, i guess.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:03 PM

i never said billingsley wasnt good or will never be good. hes hella good. hes cy young MATERIAL. there is an ESSENTIAL difference between cy young MATERIAL and cy young WINNERS. Lincecum has proven he can go beyond being Cy MATERIAL and be a WINNER. billingsley has seen october, he's got loads of legitmacy, stats et al., all to go along with an empty trophy cabinet. the point is that Lince is in a club that Billingsley isn't in yet.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:12 PM

lincecum is better than billingsley because he's a giant.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:46 PM

and i dont need the stats, because you already posted them. look at your own post for the numbers. and we dont know who will end up better in 09. all you need to know is that bills was an also ran last year and, if he's cy-less this year, he'll again be an also ran. unless he wins the ring.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:50 PM

your guy needs a cy.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 09:58 PM

yeah, im biased, guy whose handle is lakersdodgersyankees4life.

all-star starter, cy young, these are all like IBO or WBF titles. if you have one, youre a titlist, and could possibly be the best pound for pound. im pointing out that bills isnt even a titlist.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 10:03 PM

lince better b.c. hes a giant was a joke, trying to lighten the mood, whatever.

i dont deny what you say about bills or lince or awards. just dont diminish that lince was the winner just because of the flawed system--its not his fault the writers ride hype or that the giants lineup sucks. he goes out and performs, just like bills. the cy is not the most important factor in determining who the best pitcher is between pitcher A and pitcher B, but to go so far as to say that it doesnt matter at all in comparing pitchers is an oversight, since only the best pitchers compete for the award, awkward system or no.
lincecum is currently clearly better between the two because lince has put up cy young numbers for a team that has averaged around 70 wins a season since his promotion, while bills has put up similar numbers with a clearly superior team.

Posted by: paulcbarrera | May 28, 2009 at 10:50 PM

So within 1:47, you changed you stance about 4 times. pick a side, is it important or not...