Discussion: Milwaukee Brewers

Javier Vazquez? I think Gamel would have to be involved, though...

Brewers fans should be rooting for whomever the Mariners are playing. I'm betting Washburn will be the best pitcher to change teams this July, but the AL West remains somewhat winnable so the Ms is in no hurry, yet.
You have to imagine that Zduriencik knows the Brewers system very well and would likely find prospects to his liking not named Escobar or Gamel

I say the Corey Hart trade is fair, Hart and maybe a minor leauger (not gamel or escobar)but maybe angel salome or brett lawrie to the Braves, who could send Javier Vazquez and MAYBE Jo-Jo Reyes... pure wishing though... or J.J. Hardy to the Royals for Bannister or some other starters.. Gil Meche? (No Zach Grienke though)

No but evidently people think the Brewers are just going to give away theirs.
(I'm not even a Brewers fans... far from it) I don't see how Hardy for Bucholz is lol worthy?
A young SS who can play above average D whilst hitting 25 HR's and getting on base at about .330 yeah he's worthless they'd be lucky to get Brad Penny.
andre14 I think Gil Meche is maybe too much to give up for Hardy and Brain Bannister is probably too little.

Sox will not be trading Penny now, he is throwing as good as anyone around last couple of months and doubt anyway that Boston would do a Bucholz for Hardy swap.

Buchholz is the best young pitcher in the minors. JJ Hardy wouldnt be acceptable at all for Buchholz. That is a lol offer. Buchholz for Gamel and Escobar seems fair for both teams.

yunel, not alcides btw

I would venture to say a Masterson and Doubront for Hardy would be a good deal for both the Sox and Brewers. Masterson can step in now and be a very good end of rotation starter and Doubront has the potential to do the same in a season or two. Hardy fills the black hole that is Boston's shortstop for the long term.

they killed there farm system for C.C. SABATHIA FOR HALF A SEASON.
BREWERS GET READY TO FALL OFF THE MOUNTAIN THE WHOLE NL CENTRAL WOKE UP ITS A FREE FOR ALL.
PLUSE THE LAST PLACE TEAM IN THE N.L. CENTRAL IS ONLY 6 GAMES OUT ITS A TIGHT DEVISON THIS YEAR!

Buchholz for Gamel and Escobar? have you honestly ever paid attention to baseball in your life... Gamel was easily a top 5 player in all minors last year and was tearing it up before he was called up this year... Escobar has Ozzie Smith like abilities defensively... Buchholz is a solid pitcher yes... but he has not proven anything to give up that much... That is more than the Brewers gave up for Sabathia

As far as trading Hardy or Hart... the Brewers would have parted with Hardy awhile ago if they wanted to let him go... and if you watch many games he is having that year where you hit the ball hard but it manages to go right at people... he isnt striking out alot nor is he popping out and to be honest I dont think Hart has much value... I used to love him... but he might be one of the laziest players in baseball... he doesnt use his speed ever... never hussles down the line... doesnt attempt to learn how to steal bases... and when you are 6'6" and has the speed he does it's sad... I wouldnt be apposed to trading him but I doubt much would be coming back for him... and Hardy is an above average shortstop with a great arm and he can hit you 25 home runs and drive in 70... those dont come around often

To be mature as possible, Wrigleyterror37, you're an idiot.

Even after the CC trade (which was Matt Laporta and two joes), the Brewers still have a better farm system than the Cubs, as blowing money on players like Milton Bradley aren't keeping us from drafting high-end players.

Gamel should go to AAA so long as McGehee is killing the game. The Brewers should've held on to Gwynn and let him destroy AAA to either raise his trade value or step in for Hart.

Hardy doesn't get traded until Escobar is MLB ready, and if he accepts a new position (3B), then he'll stay even longer. The Brewers should probably trade McGehee and some prospects for Davis, but at any rate the Brewers won't be overpaying for pitching and have a better chance of standing pat than trading one of their regular MLB players (they'd only be able to replace Hart with Gerut, and as a Brewers fan I don't need to see that)

OrganizedChaos20, All 3 are excellant prospects. However, the Brewers are the team desperate here. They need Buchholz more than the Sox need Gamel and Escobar...who havent proven a thing in the majors. Also, the Brewers rented Sabathia for
a few months. Buchholz would be around for many years. In the NL he could be an ace. Plus he could be facing the Brewers if he gets traded to the Cardinals, Cubs, Astros, or Reds.

As Braves fan I want no part of a Vazquez- Hart Trade. I rather keep Vazquez than get a outfielder, cause its becoming clearer and clearer that our "ace" is Vazquez and not Lowe.

Did you delete my comment? That sucks..

Well, here it is in short:

Guthrie is not good, his low ERA's in 2007-2008 were flukes based on his peripheral statistics, and this year his luck has ran out and his performance has markedly declined. He's nothing more than a power 4/5 starter.

"Buchholz for Gamel and Escobar? have you honestly ever paid attention to baseball in your life... Gamel was easily a top 5 player in all minors last year and was tearing it up before he was called up this year... Escobar has Ozzie Smith like abilities defensively... Buchholz is a solid pitcher yes... but he has not proven anything to give up that much... That is more than the Brewers gave up for Sabathia"

I like how you say that Escobar is similar to Ozzie Smith and Gamel is a top 5 player in all of the minors, but Buchholz is unproven?

Like, are you freaking kidding me? Did that sound right in your head?

"But the Cubs are equal to the A's and Padres offensively and they have a higher payroll than those two teams combined. Which is funny."

It's not funny. It freaking sucks.

How do you go from the best offense in the game to one of the worst by replacing Mark DeRosa, Jim Edmonds and Henry Blanco with Milton Bradley, Aaron Miles and Koyie Hill?

Soto, Soriano and Fontenot have had some horrible luck, Ramirez has left a monster hole in the middle of their order and Bradley's defense has really been shockingly bad.

I never imagined that the Bradley deal would end up being this bad, and I think we can say the same about the Soriano deal.

At the very least, they're moving down Soriano FINALLY, and I'm pretty excited about that. He was destroying that lineup up there.

"I never imagined that the Bradley deal would end up being this bad, and I think we can say the same about the Soriano deal."

Honestly, the Bradley deal was overpaying but he will probably have some better times. At least his deal isn't huge. At least for me, I said the Soriano deal would probably be good for a few years and bad for the later years. I mean, 8 years/$136M is a lot of money for a player with bad defense and so-so OBP. I mean, if this season looks painful- wait until 2013 when he is in his late 30's.

Personally, I think the Cubs should grab a good-hitting 2B (Uggla, anyone?) and make a push to win this year, on the assumption Soriano rebounds. Then in some coming season they should trade off Soriano when he's hot to move that contract since its' only going to get worse with time.

When Bradley was signed, it was expected that he would be able to play at least an average right field, because there was a time a few years back when the guy was a plus defensive center fielder. So far this season he's been horrible defensively, and his bat has been almost equally as disappointing, although all of the walks helps. If we were going to sign a crappy defensive outfielder, we should've gone after Dunn or Abreu, someone who's durable and a sure-thing with the bat.

On the Vazquez matter, I don't see why Atlanta should move him. Even if they don't contend this year, he's signed for two more years affordably. They can always move him in a year for nearly the same kind of haul.

For Hardy, I think people are seriously overrating him. He is a SS who hits for power, which is indeed nice. However, his OBP has never been that great (even in his best year he was striking out almost twice as much as he walked). He's a competent but not amazing defender. Does he have value? Definitely. With that said, he's due to be a free agent in 2011 which means he's only under control for another year and a half.

Buchholz likely has as much value as Hardy on an annual basis (he may have risk, but top level pitching is always at a premium). If both were only around for that 1.5 years, that would be a fair trade. With that said, at worst he is under control for another 3.5 seasons. That is two extra seasons. Even if Buchholz projected to be a #3 starter that is not a good trade.

Moreover, for a guy like Hardy- there is no way you want to trade for him except for in his contract year when he's raking. Why? Because he'll end up at a Type A free agent for sure. He's close enough to the cusp that if he has a bad season, you could end up losing major value on him if he has an off year and/or gets injured and you don't get draft picks.

"For Hardy, I think people are seriously overrating him. He is a SS who hits for power, which is indeed nice. However, his OBP has never been that great (even in his best year he was striking out almost twice as much as he walked). He's a competent but not amazing defender. Does he have value? Definitely. With that said, he's due to be a free agent in 2011 which means he's only under control for another year and a half."

A plus defensive shortstop with plus power and the ability to get on base with some consistency? Yeah, that has a ton of value. Hardy is good.

"Cardinals...Buchholz for Brett Wallace and Bryan Anderson
Astros.......Buchholz and Mark Wagner for Jason Casto
Brewers....Buchholz for Alcides Escobar and Mat Gamel
Cubs.........Buchholz for Josh Vitters
Reds.........Buchholz for Yonder Alonso"

One of these offers isn't like the other.

Wallace, Gamel, Escobar, Vitters and Alonso are regarded as some of the very best prospects in the game.

Castro, while he's a good prospect, is only the best prospect in their system because of the lack of talent. And he's already having some trouble in AA so he absolutely doesn't belong in that conversation.

If Boston offered Buchholz for Castro and the Astros turned it down, then MLB should just forget about it and contract that team. Portland, anyone?

Hardy to the Braves
Penny to the Braves
Vazquez to the Brewers
Y. Escobar to the Red Sox

Add B prospects to whichever side is the not fair etc.

ender- that would be terrible for the braves. they would just be downgrading at 2 positions while not acquiring the big bat they desperately need, just to dump yunel.

Which team calls Boston the quickest?
Cardinals...Buchholz for Brett Wallace and Bryan Anderson
Astros.......Buchholz and Mark Wagner for Jason Casto
Brewers....Buchholz for Alcides Escobar and Mat Gamel
Cubs.........Buchholz for Josh Vitters
Reds.........Buchholz for Yonder Alonso

First team to accept changes the balance of power in the central(cheaply).

Posted by: johnny66 | July 05, 2009 at 02:31 PM

I know you love the Red Sox and their prospects and all, but you are making yourself look ridiculous.

I like the Doug Davis, Felipe Lopez option I heard awhile back. Another option I would like to see explored is how much would it take to pry Dan Haren away from the diamondbacks. I would send Escobar, Parra, and Solome for him. Just a thought.

"Escobar is probably more valuable than Penny but not wildly so."

A few months of a MOR pretty SP for a few years of a good hitting, great fielding SS. Sounds pretty even to me.

Firstly, I don't get how the majority of people think Milwaukee got..."raped", as one person said, by the Sabathia trade.

Matt LaPorta is nothing more than a possible Travis Hafner/Jim Thome type. And I stress "possible". Zack Jackson was a throw-away from the Overbay trade. Michael Brantley is pretty "meh".

The Brewers' issue, is that they have a ton of minor league pitching talent - it's just all at High-A or below. So unless someone wanted to roll the dice on Zack Braddock, Anundsen, Wily Peralta, etc...I just don't see the Brewers being able to do much without giving up someone on the 25-man.

Washburn is probably the best match, because if there's anyone to take someone from the lower levels of the Brewers system, it's Jack Z.

so i guess buchholz throwing that no-no in the majors doesn't count for any big league experience? sure, he's not a big league proven ace like cc, but it sure doesn't equate to "nothing in the majors"

My father has worked as a major league scout for over 20 years and we've talked a lot of Clay Buchholz and the same issue always comes up. Clay has the makings of a good MLB pitcher HOWEVER my father says his major red flag is the worst red flag to have...he is a little loose between the ears.

Sure Buchholz has torn in up in the MiLB and threw a no hitter but it was just last season that he had a hard time throwing strikes because of a lack of confidence throwing a fastball. Does that mean he is hasn't overcome that? No But once you gain a reputation for something it is not easy to shake.

With all that said the Boston Red Sox would be absolutly out of their minds to trade a guy with his talent when over half your rotation is over the age of 30.

JJ Hardy is the type of ballplayer that you want. The type of player who might not wow you with out of this world tools but is solid to above average in all assets of the game. Hardy is a plus defender with one of the strongest arms in the game at SS. He might be one of the top 10 players in the game at hitting a fastball. I again don't understand why the Brewers would want to trade this guy. It is quite obvious that Mat Gamel won't be a everyday 3B so I believe that JJ Hardy has the skills that transfer well to 3B.

If I were to trade JJ Hardy I would figure that would be to pick up a front line already proven pitcher who has more then one year left on their deal.

Corey Hart projects well who might just need a change. I think he would fit well with many teams, most notably the San Francisco Giants. Hart's skills fit that ballpark perfectly. Do the teams match up? Probably not because the Giants still have playoff asperations.

Mr. Escobar is going to be a star my friends. A young guy who's defense is already being compared to gold glove levels is learning to hit and hit for gap power. I think he is 2 years from being a star at the MLB level but he could be with the Brewers by next.

Since the topic is the Brewers I am of the belief that pitching cures all holes. The fact of the matter is the Brewers have 3 starters that do not throw hard at all so if pitching is what they are after they need to go after Javier Vazquez. A Corey Hart and a Taylor Green package could land Vazquez but if the Braves see themselves as in it this then I would be hesitant to see them do this.

We'll see how Melvin and company want to play this.

Scenario:

Milwaukee trades: JJ Hardy, Brent Brewer, and Lorenzo Cain to Pittsburgh for -

Zach Duke (innings eater), Evan Meek (quality reliever), and Luis Cruz (ss, utility man)

It should be even, Pirates get Hardy to replace a free agent to be in Jack Wilson, and gives them two more pieces in Cain and Brewer to use for the future. Brewers get a good piece to a damaged rotation (who needs a change of scenery in my opinion)in Duke, and Meek is a guy they can use for middle relief, and Cruz is just the throw in guy.

Opinions?

Hart and Lawrie for Lowe....

IF and this is an unprecedented IF, the Braves were willing to trade Lowe and your looking to get talent to matchup involving the Braves and Brewers then you could try something like this

Brewers acquire Derek Lowe

Braves acquire Adam Dunn and Josh Wilingham

Nationals acquire prospects from Brewers and a mid-tier from the Braves(Brandon Hicks?)

The Brewers get there starter, Braves get two good OF who won't completely kill them with McClouth in CF, and Nationals get a few good prospects which is great fro them.

Hardy to the Braves
Penny to the Braves
Vazquez to the Brewers
Y. Escobar to the Red Sox

what? one of the worst trades the Braves could ever make. Id be pissed if the Braves traded either player by themselves for that package

OH this one is even better......

IF and this is an unprecedented IF, the Braves were willing to trade Lowe and your looking to get talent to matchup involving the Braves and Brewers then you could try something like this

Brewers acquire Derek Lowe

Braves acquire Adam Dunn and Josh Wilingham

Nationals acquire prospects from Brewers and a mid-tier from the Braves(Brandon Hicks?)

yeah I agree, the Braves have to give up a mid-tier prospect to get a possible All Star OF who hits 40 HRs for about 8 million a year, and a young OFer. The braves should only give away a mid tier prospect because they shed about 60 million dollars in payroll (or about 6 million a year for 2 years and then 45 total). They should only get a mid tier prospect, meanwhile the Brewers are giving prospects.

How about Brewers trade Adam Dunn and Josh Willingham and get prospects for the, SAY....Medlen, Freeman and rorhbaugh

Why dont u do me a favor for all of us (including me!

If you have a team in your poster name such as red_sawxfan, braves_guy, or yanks4ever....please do not waste all of our time suggesting a trade where you dont give up actual decent or projectable prospects and the other team gives you whomever you feel.......

For instance, I am a red sox fan and I will not propose:

Kris Johnson, Chris Carter and Mike Jones for Prince Fielder....

what's wrong we give you a 3-8 LHP with a 5 ERA, but he is a starter. Carter is a replacement 1b and Mike Jones could be good in 8 years and is hitting almost .260 in AA

Sound Fair?

Would be surprised if Brewers GM Doug Melvin traded for anything but a power pitcher, considering most of his starting staff are more finesse guys without the hard stuff.

"Good thing most GM's want to keep their job and not live in la la land with Braves fans.

Posted by: Mayhem"

Just for the record not all Braves fans live in la la land.

There are fans for every team that post crazy trade ideas that only make sense for there team.

Actually an example to this would be alot of non Braves fans that keep posting a Hart for Vazquez trade.

That trade makes no sense for the Braves, the Braves have said that they are looking for a big bat and Hart doesn't fit that bill. He is an upgrade over Francoeur but I don't look at his numbers over the last year and a half as big bat type of numbers. I look at guys like (just to name a couple off the top of my head) Dye, Dunn and Willingham...etc as big bats (just an example not saying they would be a good fit trade wise, but stat wise they fit the big bat type IMO).

Hart wouldn't upgrade our offense much at all and if they made that trade they would be better off keeping Vazquez. Actually Hart might not upgrade our offense any, if you compare his numbers to Anderson and Diaz instead of Francoeurs (who hasn't been starting lately).

Also Mayhem I just wanted to let you know that my entire post wasn't directed to you or anything. Just defending us Braves fans that don't live in la la land and the Hart topic was just directed to the people that think this is a good trade for the Braves and IMO it's not.

Also I didn't realize you said this earlier in a thread, "A Corey Hart and a Taylor Green package could land Vazquez but if the Braves see themselves as in it this then I would be hesitant to see them do this."

So that's one reason why I said it wasn't directed at you. I understand that you said if the Braves see themselves as in it that you would be hesitant to see them do it. I honestly don't know much about Taylor Green which makes it a little harder for me to comment on that trade idea anyway. Still I think the Braves see themselves in it, that's why they are looking for a big bat.

Any team still "in it," and with the Wild Card, that's everybody except the Royals, Diamondbacks, Nationals, Orioles, Indians, A's, and Padres are going to hold onto pitching.

The only team with excess pitching in all of baseball is perhaps the Red Sox, and not sure they'll trade anyone, especially young pitching.

So which of the above teams is really a good fit with the Brewers right now, and has a pitcher that's worthwhile for them to trade and isn't on the DL or is a valuable piece for their current team next year?

Doug Melvin just doesn't have very many good choices, it's that simple. I think he waits, hopes the Brewers score lots of runs to win games and the pen maintains it's current state, and that they stay near the top of NL Central, and wait it out through end of July and hope more teams drop out of contention so he can make a deal for a power pitcher without giving away the farm and anyone named Gamel, Hardy, or Escobar, etc..

Its too bad the Brewers dont match up with the sox. Penny is perfect for the Brewers. He is being clocked in boston at 97 mph. His fastball is exploding. Power pitching. The Brewers just dont have a real fit for the sox. I like Hardy, but he just isnt that much of an upgrade to what the sox have. Bucholz for Hardy. No. Sorry guys.

Boston aint trading their young pitching for prospects. GM Theo says its only going to be for a stud, ML player. So if you actually want the young pitching, better get Fielder or Braun into the discussion. Penny and Saito make a lot of sense for the Brewers. Imagine your team with those guys on it. You just dont have anybody on your team that fits the sox.

"Superficial and over-simplistic. His FIP is 3.72, better than any Crew starter except Gallardo."

Posted by: PWHjort | July 06, 2009 at 07:29 AM

Yes, but K/9 of 4.73 is his worst of career... that and his 53.8% GB ratio is also by far the worst of his career. That's not a good number for a sinkerballer.

The 3.69 FIP can probably be attributed to the fact that he's somehow only given up 5 HRs this year, which makes no sense given his increased LD% and FB% numbers.

Either way, Lowe is 36 and still has $52.5 million owed to him through 2012. He's not going anywhere.

how about zach duke, john grabow or matt capps for alcides escobar

Idiotic package deals. You people couldn't successfully trade a baseball card.

I think Carl Pavano is a good fit for the Brewers' current needs, but I just don't know whether the Brewers have anybody that fits the Indians' current needs.
Mike

Macha needs to play Gamel, or send him back to AAA. PLEASE! your killin the kid.

Mcgehee at 2nd, Gamel at 3rd, Hardy isn't going anywhere. Prince, Braun, Cameron and Kendall are no question staying put. Counsell can be utility. Hart maybe if it favors the crew, but doubt it. I would be disgusted to see Jody Gerut or Frank Catalanatto in RF every day.

I wish Parra would get his head on straight. He's got all the physical capabilities, but seems immature and too mentally unstable to help the crew out..ship him out.

Right now Melvin is doing things right. Keep the young talent, and stop blowing up the farm. Let all of those prospects bloom and then see who is expendable.

At this point, Parra, Burns, Hall, and Gerut are expendable.

Now, I hope you can see why Melvin is in a tough spot.

All he has to do, is figure out how to work a small deal out..no blockbuster.. A decent arm that can give you 6 or 7 solid innings.

Doug Davis - last 3 games - has 16 strikeouts and 2 earned runs in 21 innings.

Clubhouse is happy, Bullpen is happy, Fans are happy, Brewers win.

Brewers need established starting pitching like Penney, Halladay or Snell. Rookie pitchers with potential are too risky--see P. Hughes, I. Kennedy and many others. Hardy to Minny to play 3rd or SS after the season would be a fit, Twins have a surplus of young pitchers that are becoming established, but cannot afford to part with anyone right now...