Reds Notes: Votto Reaction, Phillips

Here' the latest out of the Queen City, including lots of thoughts about Joey Votto's contract extension

  • Votto has full no-trade protection for the 10 years of his extension, and Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (via Twitter) notes that the no-trade clause also covers the final two years of Votto's existing contract (covering 2012-13).
  • Votto's deal is "slightly backloaded," a source tells ESPN's Jerry Crasnick (Twitter link) but doesn't included any deferred money.
  • The Reds think they still have a chance to reach an extension with Brandon Phillips, tweets Jerry Crasnick.  We heard yesterday that it was looking unlikely that Phillips and Reds would work out a new deal before the season begins.
  • It's telling that Votto and the Reds seemed to work out an major extension "in a matter of weeks" while Phillips and the club haven't been able to make much progress after a year of contract talks, writes Ken Rosenthal.  A team insider tells John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer that while the Reds like their second baseman, "Phillips isn’t going to compete for the MVP every year. Votto is."
  • Also from Fay's link, he notes the differences between Votto's deal and Ken Griffey Jr.'s nine-year, $112MM deal with the Reds from 2000.  Fay feels the Reds believe they'll get a new local cable TV deal before their current agreement expires in 2016, and that the Reds' revenue streams from MLB's national TV contract and new media sources will also increase, thus allowing the team to push the payroll to around the $100MM mark.
  • Ken Rosenthal wonders if Castellini pushed Votto's deal though, a la Tigers owner Mike Illitch becoming involved in his team signing Prince Fielder.  Rosenthal also thinks Votto's extension could eventually become an albatross for the small-market Reds.
  • Cincinnati's smaller-market status, however, played a role in Votto's desire to stay in town.  The first baseman told John Fay (Twitter link) that "I'm about to sign a huge deal, John, and you're the only media I have [to] answer to."
  • In case you missed it earlier today, the Reds claimed Alfredo Simon off waivers from the Orioles.

42 Responses to Reds Notes: Votto Reaction, Phillips Leave a Reply

  1. The Reds are going to be competitive for years to come. Plus with a new tv deal in the wings, the Reds will be able to extend or add on talent around Votto. The NL is going to see a paradigm shift anyways. With emphasis on well rounded teams and strong pitching(like the sluggers going to the AL, top pitchers are starting moving to the NL) with a star player to glue the line-up together. The AL may shoot their selves in the foot with the DH if its stuck full of aging, defensive albatross’s. Baseball is a team sport and quality utility players may move on to the NL where their talents can be utilized more often and be able to contribute to winning teams. Many folks overlook the value of a strong bench.

    • garylanglais 3 years ago

      If the Reds do in fact sign Phillips to an extension then they will have $35m+ tied up into two players for a franchise that surpassed an $80m team payroll for the first time last year.

      They will certainly have a strong bench…because that will be all they can afford.

      •  24 hrs into a deal and already you know all of the Reds plans for financial growth.
        They most likely will not re-up Phillips, if they do then hopefully for only like 3-4 years.

        Arroyo and Rolen will come off the books after this year and Madson will either re-up for a year or two or move on. Either way the Reds are a young team on the rise.

        Plus right when a lot of contracts are coming up for renewal, the Reds will be coming into a TV deal that will be a heck of a lot more than 10 mil a year. The Reds have surprisingly good TV and Radio ratings for their market size.

        The sky may be falling for some but the Reds changed their idea of Franchise growth from going for big name free agents to drafting, developing and keeping their talent or trading for talent. We shall see how it works, but it will be nice to see my favorite player stay for his career.

        • TophersReds 3 years ago

          Arroyo isn’t up until after next year… sadly. I thought it was after this season too.

        • garylanglais 3 years ago

          When did I say I knew about the Reds financial plans for growth?  You’re the one banking on a new TV deal which is still 4 years away.

          My math is simple: Votto’s deal is $22m+ AAV.  Phillips makes $12m this year and said he wants a raise on that salary if he were to agree to an extension.  So why not, $13m AAV.  I said “if the Reds do in fact sign Phillips to an extension…”  There’s your $35m+ tied into two players and 2011 was the first time the team spent over $80m in salaries.

          The article says…”The Reds think they still have a chance to reach an extension with Brandon Phillips, tweets Jerry Crasnick.” (In fact Crasnick’s next tweet, which was a reply to me, suggests he doesn’t believe a Phillips extension is likely)

          • TophersReds 3 years ago

            This deal doesn’t kick in until the new TV deal is only 2 years away, and it could get restructured before that. I’m not going to argue whether it will or won’t happen, but simply put it is possible though the odds went down. Time will tell, and it won’t be very long until we are told.

          • garylanglais 3 years ago

            He makes $17m next year.  So you’re looking at $30m+ next year and then $35m+ going forward.

          • Nope not true.  Votto will be paid $17 million in 2013, $12 million in 2014, the first year of the contract, $14 million in 2015, and $16 million in 2016.  So assuming Phillips signs for 4 years at $13.5 mil AAV as reported, Votto makes $59 million the next 4 years ($14.75 mil AAV), thats $28.25 million AAV for your gold glove, silver slugging, MVP, all-star, tandem on the right side of the infield.  

            Then Phillips comes off the books.  Bruce never makes more than $12.5 so worst case $40.25 AAV to your, in theory, 2-3-4 hitters that are all well above average in the field, with Bruce and Votto in their prime.

  2. To all of the people saying Votto’s deal is ridiculous. Remember Dusty Baker is solely committed to burning out his pitchers. Votto will be quite safe as long as Dusty is manager.

    • TophersReds 3 years ago

      And, thank God, Dusty will more than likely be gone after this season. His contract is going to be up.

      • Watch. The Reds will exceed expectations and Dusty will get a new three year deal.

        • TophersReds 3 years ago

          There was a pretty recent poll on the site basically asking what do the Reds need to do in order for Dusty to get a new contract with the Reds. The majority answer? Get to or win the World Series. Hopefully he’ll be gone even if they win the WS…

          •  That won’t happen how can they fire him if he gets to or wins the series.  Yes he makes bone head decisions sometimes .. ok more than not..  but the Players like him and the team is going to want to keep the players happy.

          • ctownboy 3 years ago

            Uh, in 2002, Baker took the Giants to the World Series and then wasn’t back as Manager for 2003. 

            Unless I am missing something funky that took place in the late 1970’s with the New York Yankees, THAT is the first time a Manager has NOT been back with a team that he took to the WS since 1926 when Rogers Hornsby was a player-manager for the Cardinals.  After he led the Cardinals over the Yankees, Hornsby wanted a three year deal.  The owner only offered a one year deal.  Hornsby didn’t like that and was traded to the New York Giants for Frankie Frisch.

            No matter what, the Reds would be better off WITHOUT Baker as a Manager.

            If the Reds want to WIN NOW, they can NOT have a Manager who is so stuck in his ways that you can count on the Short Stop batting second (no matter if he is a good hitter or not), a Right Handed batter has to hit between Votto and Bruce (no matter if the RH batter is any good or not against Left Handed pitching) and the Catcher always bats eighth.

            They not going to win on a consistent basis when he keeps wanting (and getting) over the hill players off the scrap heap and getting them contracts for more than they are worth while, at the same time, finding any excuse he can for letting younger, less expensive, better palyers either rot on the bench to be sent to the Minors where they have nothing left to prove and nothing left to learn.

            No, the Reds NEED a manager who can back up a move and support his case with something better than “I can feel player X is going to do something good today” or “players usually revert to the numbers on the back of their bubblegum card” (in reference to why Corey Patterson was left in the lead off spot for so long) except, of course when they are over the hill and their careers are pretty much done….

  3. tinman135 3 years ago

    I’m a Cards fan and I would rather have Phillips than Votto any day of the week, but that may just be me. Don’t get me wrong, they are both amazing players, but I like Phillips glove over Votto’s.  

    • garylanglais 3 years ago

      As a Cards fan you should prefer the Reds to have Phillips over Votto. 

    •  Your comparing a 1st baseman to a 2nd baseman’s defense???   They don’t compare well at all.  2nd base is a much more defensive position than 1st.  Not saying that there is no defense at 1st but still, your comparing apples to oranges.  Sorry and as a Reds Fan I would take Votto over Phillips any day.

  4. Padres should sign Phillips and send O-Dog down the road.

  5. Great deal for Votto, terrible deal for the city of Cincinatti. 

    • TophersReds 3 years ago

      Why does everybody put 2 t’s in CinciNNati? I digress. But in reply to the comment, it is terrible for Castillini’s wallet, great for the actual city.

  6. Gunner65 3 years ago

    A lot of it is going to come down to two things:

    1. Can they get Fox to adjust their current TV deal to help offset this new contract of Votto’s when it starts in ’14? As John Fay said, if they can even get $10M more per year out of it in seasons ’14-’16, then that would offset the raises he will get during that part of the contract.

    2. How large of a TV deal they can get for ’17 and beyond? The Angels new TV deal is $150M per year while the Reds are currently getting $30M. If they could even double what they are getting now per year starting in ’17, it will easily cover Votto’s deal for the duration of his contract and still have enough left over to pay Phillips.

    • TophersReds 3 years ago

      The Reds are only getting $10M/year on their current TV contract. They really got screwed it appears.

  7. nicolasville96 3 years ago

    And people say Pujols was an overpay… Votto won’t even have the DH to save him, and he hasn’t put up numbers even close to Pujols’s in his peak. With the Reds’ market in Cincinatti, this is going to be crippling in a couple years. 

    • TophersReds 3 years ago

      Pujols’ contract ends when he is 42 I believe, while Votto’s ends when he is 40. So, basically your saying that “old” baseball players can’t field? Scott Rolen is 37 is still above average in the field. So, Votto and CincinNati will be fine.

      • ctownboy 3 years ago

         Sure Rolen can still play defense.  The problem is keeping him on the field enough to where he can make a difference.

        When you pay a guy a certain amount of money and expect him to play 140 to 150 Games a year but he only plays 80 to 120, you have a problem.  First off, you are OVERPAYING for the original guy and then you have to pay somebody (most likely a lesser player) to play the Games and position you were expecting the higher paid guy to play.

        So yeah, the Reds are counting on Rolen to be at Third Base for most of the year but, most likely, Wilson Valdez is going to get a lot more playing time there than Reds’ fans are going to want to see.

      • nicolasville96 3 years ago

        I never said they can’t field, but the DH relieves a ton of physical stress off an aging player. Sure, Votto might still be a good fielder in ten years – but he also might not. Rolen has been an exceptional defender his whole career, so I wouldn’t call that a good comparison. All the best to the Reds and Votto, though. 

    • turkey86 3 years ago

       Do you not read stats?  Votto has been better the last 2 years.  Pujols is fading fast.  Couldn’t even hit .300.  Votto is a better defender too.

      • nicolasville96 3 years ago

        Votto has been better the last two years… because he also happens to be 28 and in his prime, while Pujols is 32. Pujols had a horrible first half aggravated by a wrist injury – he hit to his career norms the second half. As for ’10, they had very similar years, despite Pujols being four years older. You can’t sit here and tell me Votto has had a better first five years in the majors than Pujols – and you can’t tell me he warrants an almost-as-lucrative contract even right now. 

        • turkey86 3 years ago

           You’re basically proving my point.  Votto is younger, while Pujols is already falling off the wagon.  Griffey’s downfall started with an injury, also.  It’s his own fault if he attempted to play if he was still hurt, which he said he wasn’t.  My point still stays the same.  Votto deserves the money.  Fielder got paid, and Votto’s numbers are much better than him.

      • ctownboy 3 years ago

        Couldn’t hit .300 because first, he was hit on the wrist early in the season by Reds Closer Francisco Cordero and THEN he broke a bone in his hand or his wrist and had to go on the DL.

        After he came back (which was sooner than expected) he couldn’t have been as strong or as quick with his wrists as he previously was but he still was able to play and put up some decent numbers.

        Just wait until a Pitcher gets wild and hits Votto in his hand and breaks a bone.  Or one of the Reds’ Short Stops makes a bad throw (which pulls Votto into the baseline and causes him to collide with the oncoming runner) and Votto breaks his wrist and lets see how quickly he recovers, how well he hits afterwards and how well the Reds do without him in the line up.

        • turkey86 3 years ago

           Again, his own fault if he came back early.  Cry all you want, but a wrist injury don’t effect walks.  Pujols .366 OBP is terrible for a guy making 25 million a year.  Votto had a .416 OBP, by the way.

          • ctownboy 3 years ago

            First off, according to the Cots baseball contracts web page, Pujols was paid $16 million in 2011 and NOT $25 million.

            Second, I really hope you remember that line of reasoning when Votto starts making $17 million dollars next year and over $20 million per year thereafter and something happens which causes his OBP to fall into the .360 range (or lower).  Because I don’t want to hear a peep out of you (or anybody else who says or thinks the same way).

            Yet, I am sure when Votto isn’t producing and that large contract is still there, his fans are going to say things about him getting older or that he is/was injured…..

    • Not every player needs to DH when they get near the end of their career.  Look at Eric Davis, Look at Barry Larkin.  They both played at positions and defended very well in their final few years. I am sure that there are many other examples outside the Reds organization.

      • ctownboy 3 years ago

         Davis couldn’t stay on the field during most of his career and Larkin wasn’t very good his last three years.  Larkin should have been traded when the Reds had a chance.  But no, the Reds went with their heart and overpaid him for the last three years.

  8. ctownboy 3 years ago

    Just because a person has more financial information doesn’t mean they still cant let their hearts get in the way of their heads.

    The owner of, I think, Papa Johns Pizza owned a 1970 Camaro when he was in high school but later sold it for some reason.  After he became a multi-millionaire, he started thinking about that Camaro and how much he loved it.  So, he offered a $250,000 dollar reward to the owner if he could find it and buy it.

    For 250K, you could get some of the best, rarest and most coveted Camaros in existence and not some clunker.  But the Papa Johns guy was thinking with his heart and not his brain….just like Ca$htellini did with exercising Dunn’s option for the 2008 season (and then dumping him as quickly as possible once the Reds were out of contention and the economy was tanking) and just like it looks like he just did with Votto.

  9. BitLocker 3 years ago

     The Yankees took on A-Rod’s contract from the Rangers. A similar team could do the same with Votto.

  10. maybe after a new ownership group comes in and their new tv contract is ratified.

  11. Drew Tweedie 3 years ago

     Phillips is a great player, but Spangenberg is progressing well through the minors. Let’s give him a shot for league minimum and see how he does.

  12. Drew Tweedie 3 years ago

     No need to insult our brothers to the north, Josh.

  13. nathanalext 3 years ago

    I’m still trying to decipher it. What is he trying to say?

  14. Ankur Varma 3 years ago

     It’s a misquote. If you’ve never read John Fay, he is consistently off with his grammar and spelling. I’m thinking he uses some sort of voice-to-text, but then doesn’t spend the five seconds necessary to proofread. It’s embarrassing.

  15.  Ive said all along that the Reds Ownership probably had some kind of plan in mind to keep Votto.  When Phillips high balled the team they started allocating more funds toward what they could offer Votto. 

    Phillips may sign again with the team now and even take around the same salary for the next few years.  He did say he loves Cincinnati.  And yes I do remember the no home town hookup comment.  But things change.  I personally think they will let him walk next winter unless he comes down a tad on his demands.

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