The Mariners made a massive addition to their lineup, announcing the acquisition of star outfielder Jesse Winker and third baseman Eugenio Suárez from the Reds. Seattle will reportedly assume the entirety of the three years and $35MM remaining on Suárez’s contract. In return, they’re sending pitching prospect Brandon Williamson, outfielder Jake Fraley, right-hander Justin Dunn and a player to be named later to Cincinnati.
Mariners president of baseball operations Jerry Dipoto has been open about his hunt for offensive help throughout the winter. Seattle already signed reigning AL Cy Young winner Robbie Ray to a five-year contract, but they hadn’t previously done a whole lot to bolster the offense aside from a deal that brought in Adam Frazier from the Padres.
Winker got his due as a first-time All-Star last season, but he’s quietly been an excellent hitter for some time. He’s had a wRC+ of 127 or better (output at least 27 percentage points above the league average) in four of his five career seasons. The former supplemental first-rounder has been particularly impressive the past couple years. Going back to the start of the 2020 campaign, he owns a .292/.392/.552 line with 36 home runs over 668 plate appearances.
Last year, he tallied 485 trips to the dish and hit a personal-best .305/.394/.556 with a strong 10.9% walk rate and a 15.5% strikeout percentage that’s more than seven points lower than the league average. Winker rarely swings and misses or chases pitches outside the strike zone, and he’s capable of doing plenty of damage when he makes contact. He posted well above-average marks in terms of barrel rate, hard contact percentage and average exit velocity.
It’s easy to see the appeal for Seattle in adding that kind of offensive firepower to the lineup. Despite winning 90 games, the Mariners didn’t have an especially productive offense last year. Seattle hitters ranked just 21st in team wRC+ (excluding pitchers). They finished 22nd in total runs scored. Winker should be a massive boon to a unit that’ll need to improve if they’re to snap a 20-year playoff drought.
That said, Winker isn’t entirely without flaws. He’s limited to the corner outfield defensively, and he’s never rated favorably in the eyes of public metrics. Defensive Runs Saved has pegged him as 20 runs below average in 2,335 2/3 career innings in the corners (in addition to three runs below average in 138 innings as a center fielder). Statcast’s Outs Above Average has him at -21 plays as a big leaguer, including a -7 mark last season.
The left-handed hitting Winker also has some of the league’s most notable platoon splits. He’s been downright elite in his career against right-handed pitching (.313/.405/.556), but his numbers without the platoon advantage (.188/.305/.295) have been unimpressive. Winker’s probably not a strict platoon player — he does at least draw a boatload of walks against southpaws — but his impact has been concentrated to feasting on righties.
Perhaps of more concern than any aspect of his talent, though, has been his lack of volume. Winker has gone on the injured list in every full season of his MLB career. Heading into last season, the 28-year-old had never tallied even 400 plate appearances in a big league campaign. He picked up a personal-high in playing time last year, but he ended the season on the IL after suffering an intercostal strain in mid-August (from which he unsuccessfully tried to return in September).
That all makes Winker a tricky player to value, but there’s little question he’ll improve Seattle’s overall offense. He’ll presumably step in as the M’s regular left fielder, joining an outfield that could feature Jarred Kelenic in center and Mitch Haniger in right. Former Rookie of the Year Kyle Lewis is coming off another serious knee injury, and Dipoto told reporters (including Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times) he’s unlikely to be ready for the start of the season as they proceed with caution in his recovery. Former top prospect Taylor Trammell and utilityman Dylan Moore could be depth options behind the presumptive season-opening trio of Winker, Kelenic and Haniger. Julio Rodriguez, among the top handful of prospects in the game, mashed at Double-A at the end of last season.
Winker will probably be in the Pacific Northwest for at least the next two seasons. He’s projected by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz for a $6.8MM salary via arbitration this year. He’ll be controllable via that process once more next winter before reaching free agency in advance of his age-30 season.
In order to entice the Reds to part with a player of Winker’s caliber, the M’s are taking on far more money than just his projected arbitration figures. Cincinnati signed Suárez to a $66MM extension in March 2018, which will pay him a bit more than $13MM annually for the next three seasons. (The deal also includes a $15MM club option for 2025). Initially, that looked to be a shrewd investment by the Cincinnati front office, as Suárez went on to earn down-ballot MVP support in each of the following two years. Yet after combining for a .277/.362/.550 line over that stretch, he’s struggled the past couple seasons.
Suárez hit .202/.312/.470 during the shortened 2020 campaign. That’s a ghastly batting average, but he offset it somewhat with a robust 13% walk rate and 15 homers in only 231 plate appearances. However, his issues at the plate mounted last year. His walk percentage dipped to a solid but no longer elite 9.8%, not sufficient to make up for an even lower .198 batting average. Suárez reached base at only a .286 clip — the sixth-lowest mark among the 135 players who totaled 500+ plate appearances. He still hit for power (31 homers), but the on-base issues and his inability to successfully acclimate to an ill-advised move from third base to shortstop kept his overall production in the realm of replacement level.
Clearly, the Mariners assumed Suárez’s deal as a means to acquire Winker. That said, it seems likely they’ll give him some opportunity to try and right the ship in his new environs. Seattle bought out longtime third baseman Kyle Seager at the end of the year. Abraham Toro looks like the in-house favorite for playing time at the hot corner, but Toro can bounce between the corners and second base as a bat-first utility option as well. Divish tweets that Suárez is likely to step in as the primary third baseman, at least to begin the year, with Toro deployed around the diamond as needed.
The acquisitions of Suárez and Winker will add around $20MM to the Mariners’ 2022 books. That puts this year’s estimated expenditures at $106MM, per Jason Martinez of Roster Resource. That’s well above last year’s season-opening $73MM mark but nowhere close to franchise-record payrolls that exceeded $150MM from 2017-18. Precisely how much remains in the coffers isn’t clear, although it seems they’re content with the position player group. Dipoto told reporters (including Daniel Kramer of MLB.com) the club was unlikely to make further moves on that side of the ball. Seattle had been linked to big-ticket free agents like Kris Bryant and Trevor Story this offseason, but Dipoto called their pursuits of free agent hitters “dead ends.”
The Winker acquisition marked another aggressive move for a win-now Mariners team, but it’s a continuation of payroll-cutting efforts for the Reds. Cincinnati traded away Tucker Barnhart and lost Wade Miley on waivers for little to no return in November. They’ve listened to trade offers on their top three starting pitchers, and they moved Sonny Gray to the Twins for pitching prospect Chase Petty over the weekend.
This afternoon’s swap is the most notable to date, as the Reds slice around $20MM in 2022 commitments off the books. Of arguably greater import, they find a way out of the future commitments to Suárez. Only Joey Votto ($25MM) and Mike Moutakas ($18MM) have guaranteed money on the Cincinnati books in 2023, and the payroll slate is completely clean by 2024. Reds brass has pushed back against the idea they’re orchestrating a full teardown, but the recent subtractions of Winker and Gray make it more difficult for what had been an 83-79 team to contend this season.
Against that backdrop, it wouldn’t be surprising to see further subtractions by Cincinnati. Luis Castillo and Tyler Mahle each have two more seasons of arbitration control, as Winker did. Both pitchers would bring back a haul if the Reds made them available, particularly with the free agent market essentially now bereft of mid-rotation options.
Even if the Reds have further moves on the horizon, however, the players they bring back should all factor into the mix in short order. Fraley and Dunn are immediate big leaguers, and Fraley seems likely to step right into the left field spot vacated by Winker’s departure. The left-handed hitter struggled in limited big league looks between 2019-20, but he showed reasonably well this past season.
Fraley picked up 265 plate appearances last year, hitting .210/.352/.369 with nine homers and ten steals. The batting average is obviously subpar, but the LSU product more than compensated with an elite 17.4% walk rate. Fraley’s extremely patient approach at the plate should make him a serviceable on-base option. He’s primarily been a left fielder in the big leagues, but he’s capable of covering center in a pinch. Fraley’s controllable through 2026 and isn’t on track to reach arbitration eligibility until 2024.
Dunn, meanwhile, is a former first-round pick who went to Seattle from the Mets in the Edwin Díaz/Robinson Canó trade. He’s made 25 starts over his three big league seasons, posting a 3.94 ERA in 102 2/3 innings. The 26-year-old’s peripherals don’t support that kind of run prevention; he’s benefitted from an unsustainable .205 opponents’ batting average on balls in play and has walked an untenable 15.5% of batters faced. Despite averaging a decent 93.8 MPH on his four-seam fastball last year, he only generated swinging strikes on 9.7% of his offerings (a bit below the 10.9% league mark for starters).
Like Fraley, Dunn is an affordable, MLB-ready piece though. He’s controllable through 2025 and won’t reach arbitration until next season. If the Reds do move one or both of Castillo and Mahle, Dunn could factor into the back of the rotation immediately. He might also be a candidate for a bullpen transfer — some prospect evaluators have long suggested he’d be a better fit in relief — where he could aid a Cincinnati bullpen that was among the league’s worst.
Fraley and Dunn are the more well-known parts of the return, but Williamson is quite likely the player the Reds value most of the trio. A second-round pick out of TCU in 2019, the southpaw has impressed evaluators since getting into pro ball. Baseball America ranked him as the game’s #83 overall prospect this winter (fifth in the Seattle system), noting that the 6’6″ lefty can run his fastball into the mid-90s and has a potential 70-grade curveball on the 20-80 scouting scale.
BA writes that the 23-year-old could develop into a #3/4 starter. FanGraphs slotted Williamson 61st on their recent Top 100 list, opining that control issues could limit his ability to work deep into games consistently but praising his repertoire and suggesting he could be “dominant” for five-six innings per start. Williamson pitched his way to Double-A last year, working 67 1/3 innings of 3.48 ERA ball with an excellent 33% strikeout rate and a fine 8.1% walk percentage. He seems likely to get a big league look at some point this season and may eventually work alongside college teammate Nick Lodolo in the Reds’ rotations of the future.
The Reds also pick up a player to be named later who is reportedly a notable part of the return. Moreover, general manager Nick Krall told reporters (including Mark Sheldon of MLB.com) they plan to reinvest some of the money they saved in free agency. Cincinnati fans may roll their eyes at their assertion, given the club’s cost-cutting efforts to date, but Krall reasserted that this was not going to be a multi-year teardown.
The deal offers a major shakeup to both organizations. The M’s continue to push forward in an effort to hang with the Astros (and perhaps the Angels) at the top of the AL West. The Reds’ hopes of contending were dealt another blow, but the front office continues to maintain they’re not punting on the 2022 campaign. Whether Cincinnati’s future moves back up that assertion remains to be seen, but there’ll be no shortage of demand if they turn their attention to trading away either Castillo or Mahle.
Jeff Passan of ESPN first reported the Mariners were acquiring Winker. Mark Feinsand of MLB.com reported the Mariners were acquiring Suárez and that the Reds were acquiring Fraley, Williamson and Dunn. Joel Sherman of the New York Post reported that Seattle was taking on the entirety of Suárez’s contract. Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic reported the Reds were acquiring a player to be named later who “enhances” the quality of their return.
Images courtesy of USA Today Sports.
Whoah. Guess Castillo and mahle are available after all
That’s what I’m talking about this a big move by the Mariners. The Mariners were quiet after the lockout until now. I knew Dipoto was working at something.
Now this is a front page move by Seattle. Well done. Speaking of done, Dunn may be the spark for Cin. on this trade, he might be the “under the radar” guy.
Wait til Dunn sees how easily the ball flies out of GABP.
He’s young Natural, let him adjust.
I’ve been totally expecting Dipoto to trade Dunn and Sheffield this offseason.
This off-season alone, he’s done better for the M’s than he did his whole time with the Angels.
That’s cause he’s not working for a cheap schmuck like Moreno.
Moreno is by no means cheap. He just keeps spending his money unwisely.
They could be spending easily a ton more. They barely spend just over their local cable contract. That leaves a lot of MLB shared money and gate revenues and he’s certainly not spending on analytics.
Dipoto has been allowed to actually be a GM in Seattle. Here he was hamstrung by Arte who also expected him to bow to Scioscia.
What Dipoto has done is win more games than the Angels while spending far less on payroll and building a top flight farm system.
Pretty clear where the problem lies.
When you have Art running the Angels, it’s hard to do anything productive. Art is like the Jerry Jones of the MLB. Has all the say
What an uninformed post. Moreno has never been afraid to spend money. He has been unlucky on how it worked out. And DiPotos signings are risky too. Is Ray going to continue his Blue Jay success or regress to his DBacks form? How will hitters who were successful in the GAB bandbox perform in Seattle?
Nevertheless, it’s pretty clear Arte—despite all the money he spends—has his hand on the till and does not manage it well. When was the last time the Angels had a really good starting rotation?
The Angels only had a payroll of $181M last year. The highest it’s ever been, and mostly around $150-160M over the past decade. They’ve never come close to sniffing the luxury tax although I’m confident they can easily afford it. I suppose all that might be okay if they made the playoffs now and then but they’re never even in contention. Nuff said!
@Bart- Every big signing is risky, so that statement is useless. Dipoto has acquired impact type players without completely hamstringing the future of the franchise. Sorry the M’s are being run better than the Angels organization.
Oh and speaking of uninformed, Winker hit .314 on the road and .295 at home. He had 13 HR at home and 11 on the road. He had the same amount of doubles away as at home. So it’s weird to question if he can hit outside GABP. If he doesn’t hit in Seattle, it’ll have nothing to do with being incapable.
Wow, hurtful to reds fans. Basically gave up Winker for free to get rid of Suarez’s contract
Fraley, Dunn, and Williamson are still useful, young players. Its just not great to see the Reds use Winker to dump more salary without getting a real star prospect back
Williamson is the prize here, but the Mariners “won” this deal. And it’s clear Reds are going into full rebuild.
Saurez and $35M is a win?
The Reds are having a “I can’t believe he took all the money”?!!
Their payroll has to be super low. If they trade Castillo and or mahle it gets even lower. If I was votto I’d want out. Would put another good first baseman out there for trade.
But no one is paying for Votto. He can want out all he wants.
@paindonthurt any contract can be dumped. Vottos isn’t the worst contract ever.
True. Not sure they want to add prospects to dump him. They’d have to subtract from the farm to make that happen. They also need at least one guy to sell those 5,000 tickets.
Joey Votto raked last year and is a future HOF player with a couple good years left. They could easily move him
Votto should have approved that rumored trade to the Jays several seasons ago.
Williamson is the #7 prospect for the M’s and was someone who had risen pretty quickly through their system. I don’t think the Reds gave them away.
It’s a steal Fraley is a .196 career hitter and Dunn did next to nothing.
until these three guys make some noise, it is likely going to be seattle winning the trade. but you fail to see that the long term outlook of the five players traded could swing it in favor of the reds. fraley put up almost 2 war last year despite a very weak hitting year. any improvement there and he is a pretty useful player with plus speed. dunn’s career is still very young and he has under a 4 era. williamson already is said to have a higher ceiling than dunn did in his days as a prospect. suarez’ age and winker’s injury history and the three young players going to cincy could prove you very wrong
Wow Tiger did Fraley run over your dog? I don’t know you seem bitter and a bit pissed. Walks don’t score runs very insightful. HRs only score 1 unless you have a guy on base. I don’t know why we have gotten to the point hitting .239 is ok if you hit 25 HRs. When the guy who is supposed to hit the HR gets up and nobody is on base it is one run but if two guys stay with me walk in front of him that is three. Which one is better? I guess anyone that has a good walk rate and a low BA is no good.
I didn’t look to see but I will also bet Williamson wil be too 2-3.in your rankings and Dunn is a starter for you. Unless you have seen them play you don’t understand how good our MiLB group is. Please go off on this post too I need another good laugh. This might get you. The D metrics are better but still far behind the Off. I know it is hard but you stat guys which I assume you are are not always right. There is a use for the metrics and I know they will keep tweaking them to improve them. Just don’t think that everything the metrics say about a player is gospel. I have an example.
Seattle made a trade with the Expos I am almost pos and am too tired to look up. They got this tall gangly dude with long stringy hair and couldn’t grow a beard. He threw the ball over 100 mph problem didn’t have a clue were it would go. His peripherals would be all over the place. One day he sits down with this other pitcher from another team. They talked for awhile and then talked the next day. This older pitcher gave him some tips and spent time together in the off season. Randy Johnson turned out to be a great pitcher and Nolan Ryan turned into a great friend and fan. Never know what will make a player have the lights turn on.
Look at Eugenio’s last 700 plus Ab and tell me what his batting average is lol .
Tcsbaseball- WHAT!? First, you have to realize that Brandon Williamson would prob be many teams #2 or #3 prospect. He’s a 6’6” LHP with 22” of vertical drop to his FB. 22” just think about that for a minute. Second, Baseball America recently did a piece on MiLB pitching prospects highlighting which pitchers threw the best pitches. For ex: who has the best slider, the best curve etc etc. Brandon Williamson’s FB was rated by BA as THE best (all around) FB in the whole of the Minor Leagues. Did I mention it had 22” of vertical? That’s mind blowing. Frankly I’m really REALLY sad he’s gone. You have no idea how good this guy is.
Plus a PTBNL from the best farm system in the majors? Ahem, that is worth a helluva lot. You got at least 6 yrs control of Williamson. You’ll have Fraley through 2026 and Justin Dunn through 2025. Dunn was the Mets best Pitching prospect at the time of the Cano trade and Jake Fraley raced through 3 levels in one season. He had a Minor League career line of .288/.366/.484/.850. His ceiling is a 25/25 HR/SB player.
You have no IDEA how good a trade that is for your Reds. NO IDEA
Awful trade for an All Star. Williamson wasn’t even a first rounder and Fraley is a career .196 hitter and Dunn has done nothing in the majors to be worth anything. But nice try at justifying this garbage trade.
Sorry but dude has a very high era for such a good pitcher in such a weak league. I watched him and I was not impressed I see him as a 4th or 5th
Williamson would have been a first round pick if not for the injury. Dipoto is on record saying this. He slipped to the 2nd because he was injured and they rolled the dice. Brandon was my 2nd favorite prospect after Kirby. I would’ve traded any other pitching prospect other than those two. And Dunn looked like he was turning a corner last year before the injury bug came up and got him.
Don’t sleep on Fraley. He was on record for the 3rd hardest hit baseball in Mariners franchise history. If he can stay healthy, there’s you’re Winker 2.0
But he’s not Winker and is hitting .196 and the Reds needed elite prospects not players that will be bullpen arms.
The only thing Jake Fraley and Jesse Winker have in common is that they both have letters in their names.
Winker 2.0? HA! That’s flat out ridiculous. I mean, not attached to reality in any way.
You’re not gonna get elite prospects for a guy like Winker…He’s an above average player, but he has obvious injury concerns and only 2 years of control.
@Tiger22matt – You keep mentioning his .196 BA. Look at his .352 OBP., he’s a BB machine. OPS+ is 104, he’s not a bum.
.196 batting average. Walks don’t drive in runs. The Reds need a guy to actually hit not stand there. This guy will be a late inning pinch hitter when nobody is on base. So In short he is a bum and not players you want to get back for All Star players.
I feel your pain dude. We just lost a franchise QB AND have had to suffer through a Mariners rebuild on top of 20 miserable seasons. M’s haven’t been to the playoffs since 2001! Have you seen the garbage that has been run out here in the PNW? Have you seen the absolutely horrendous trades this Org has made? 2 words, take your pick- Heathcliff Slocumb or Adam Jones! I feel your pain friend.
I know it hurts to lose a franchise player like Winker- but you have to trust me on Williamson dude. A 6’6” LHP who struck out 153 batters in 98 IP? That type of SP does NOT grow on trees.
I mean, tbh I think 6 yrs control of B Williamson alone is at least equal to two years of Jesse Winker. I know you have to give talent to get talent in return but I really hoped we could’ve kept this kid. He’s a future front end SP- he’d be the #1 pitching prospect in 90% of all MLB farm systems right now, ours too if we didn’t have G Kirby.
Right now most Reds fans won’t listen to a single word from an Ms fan who is trying to describe the value on the return on this trade. That’s ok- I get it, but someday, maybe the day after another 10 K/0 outing by B Williamson you’ll look back on this trade and be thankful!
Which is fine with me since I’m a big Mariner fan. Runs can’t be driven in unless you have runners on base btw. That’s what Fraley does. Who’s going to start in LF for Cincinnati? It may be Fraley.
153 K/0’s in 98 inn is the epitome of elite. Striking out 37% of all the batters you faced? I mean only 2 pitchers in the whole Minor Leagues had a higher strikeout % than this 6’6” lefty stud last yr. A 17.1 SO9 for his Minor League career is by definition elite. You may want to judge a pitcher by something else other than whether he is or isn’t in a Top 100 list.
I get the hate Reds fans (goodbye Russell Wilson) but you are way off on Williamson. He is a STUD
Lessee…
PROS
Hits RHP like a bad man
CONS
Can’t run a lick
Can’t field his position
Can’t stay in the lineup
Can’t hit LHP as well as Bartolo Colon
Yeah, I guess in these inflated times, that makes Jesse Winker an “All-Star”
Can he drive in runs, no then he doesn’t help this team who already had pitching prospects. A manager will just walk Votto because there is zero threats in this lineup now.
Whos driving him in? The Reds just traded the 2nd and 3rd best rbi guys on the team for something in pitching they already had which was prospects. The Reds also already have a leadoff guy in India Fraley brings zero to the franchise other than a late inning sub.
Trading a weakness for a strength did nothing for the Reds. Nobody is driving in runs as Votto will probably walk a record number of times. As a Mariners fan you should be excited you fleeced the Reds. Two former All Stars for one unproven prospect who could be a bust.
Mike Trout wasn’t a first rounder either. From what I agave heard if the Angels didn’t have the supp pick they wouldn’t have drafted him there. I mean we can fill this whole page up with guys who were not first round picks. That makes you sound like a 6 yo who says you are a pop pop head and runs away.
So is Williams or Fraley replacing 58 Home Runs or 160 rbs? No then the Reds needed to get higher level prospects most of which come in the first round.
Mike Trout absolutely was a 1st rounder. 25th overall. They also had the 24th overall and took Randal Grichuk. Trout was their prize though and would’ve taken him there had they only had 1 pick. Check your facts before you start talking trash on others, compass.
This is huge for the NL central. Reds just lost a Brewer killer in Winker, which I’m glad to see, but that’s gotta hurt for the Reds fans…
Nah, Reds will still have the previous bad moves held against them, but this one makes some sense. Winker & Suarez combined for 2.0 WAR last year (Wink 2.7, Geno -0.7). For that plus their relief of a combined $20M/ yr in salary, the Reds picked up 4 (hopefully with the PTBNL) organizational top 10 prospects. Who knows how this one will work out in the long run, maybe Suarez returns to form & Winker stays an all-star, but this at least looks reasonable on paper.
Did you look closely at the Reds’ return on this deal? Only Williamson is a real prospect.
I agree, the contract wasn’t even that bad to give up such a solid player like Winker, this was clearly a steal by the Mariners; we did the same and they also won on that deal even though we got Diaz.
Let’s admit it, this is all because of the ridiculous Mike Moustakas contract. Not that it is his fault, there was no open slot on the diamond and Mike’s skills were not exaggerated by past performance. An awful fielder with a flawed swing for $20 mil/yr
Respectfully disagree. While I hate to see them go, both great guys/players there is still one more player to be named and said to be significant. Also getting rid of Suarez’s contract is a big deal if they use it to get players they need more and who hit more than .198. Reds were going nowhere even with both of them on the team even and more so without Castellanos.
YEAHHHHHH BABY!!!!! For Brandon Williamson, Justin Dunn, and Jake Fraley!!!
What a steal!!!!!!
Wait till you see who the player to be named later is
Exactly! Best farm in MLB
It’s a player to be named later or cash considerations. My bet is that it will be $$ going back to the Reds.
It’s Chone Figgins
The Reds are pathetic.. I am done with them after pulling for them for around 65 years.
Me too. I’m done. F— them.
@Alan Horn don’t you mean DUNN with them
@ Alan Horn;
The Reds did what most people here want all small and mid market teams to do – they WENT FOR IT. They TRIED TO WIN.
They had some nice young players; then went on a spending spree for FA’s that would play for them. They didn’t win anything – lost one wild card game. What they did do was find that they didn’t remotely create the revenue to pay for those expenditures. They lost some money, and if they didn’t unload most of their large contracts they were going to lose big, big money……for years.
Small and even some mid-sized markets have to back off (such as what Detroit has been doing), build a core of young, controlled players, and as they’re ready to compete add in a few higher priced veterans. It’s why teams such as Oakland, Tampa, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and even from larger markets such as Toronto and Chicago build on cycles that create a contention window corresponding to the period their core players are controlled.
The Reds bought into the nonsense that spending equals winning. The fact is that even one bad long-term contract hampers a franchise; and multiple ones can even limit what teams such as the Yankees can do.
I was on here when the Reds spending spree started saying it was only a matter of time before disaster hit. It was obvious. And I’m sure most MLB FO’s knew it as well as many fans.
The problem the Reds have had for decades through multiple owners is that the owners become impatient and start telling the FO people what to do. We have to go all the way back to Bob Howsam – who put together the Big Red Machine – that said when free agency came about that the great teams would be a thing of the past. All FO heads for the Reds since he left have been pushed around by owners. The Reds need an owner that hires some good young QUALIFIED people to run their Baseball Ops, tell them the budget, and leave them alone to build a FO structure, farm system, and MLB team.
That you, Bob Castellini?
Just get home from school, pappyvw?
The reds jumped the gun on their rebuild and also just signed players that really didn’t make a ton of sense for them. As you alluded to, it might just be that those are the ones that were willing to sign there, but they didn’t seem like a great fit, even at the time. Add to that Suarez falling off a cliff and Senzel unable to stay healthy, it didn’t work out well for them.
@samuel
Excellent comments re: Reds Reckoning. I would never want my team to do what the Reds did. “Going for it” is fraught with risk and scant reward. Even the Royals resumed their 35 years of losing ‘cept for the two years of contention. Pushing all the cards into the middle of the table is no way to run a ball club in a small market. At least not for long without the steep price to pay in the standings. Not for me.
Yes Samuel I agree. Your post sound very much like one I posted a few months ago. I understand all the “I am done with being a Reds fan” and the “straw that broke the camels back” posts as the Reds have been a very frustrating franchise for years and years. At one time they did go for it. Signing Moustakas, Akiyama and Castillo. Two of three went sour. Despite what people say now, the consensus was at the time they were good players even if they had to overpay to get Moustakas as he was sought after by many teams. I can easily imagine a Castillo/Moustakas trade coming next. Teams like the Reds can not afford long term expensive contacts because they can go bad and hopefully this is a painful lesson that they have well learned.
Yeah this is a rough one. Last year was a lot of fun most teams would build upon that but the reds just continue to strip it down with very little return.
@ wanamba1;
Let me ask you…….
How does a MLB franchise “build on that” when they’re losing large chunks of money?
This is not the government that just prints more money. These are people that have an investments and debt liabilities. Did you know that the hated owner of the Pirates – Bob Nutting – acquired the franchise in BANCRUPTCY COURT? That one of the previous (wealthy) owners had to sell his mansion and lost most of everything he worked for / inherited? This is the real world here. Don’t confuse it with rotisserie baseball.
Amen
Only if someone is willing to take Moose as an add-on !
I’m seeing a trend here – Williamson, Dunn – trying to save money and use old jerseys !
Cheapskate Castellini takes another dump on Reds fans & claims we ain’t got no dough. Ahahahaha!
Castellini probably putting the Reds profit into his Castellini Produce company located in Wilder Kentucky. I think MLB should start an investigation into Castellini.
Probably only if Moustakas is attached in the trade much like Suarez was in this deal.
OMG! I love this signing! Great job!
Not a signing. Mariners presumably are giving up a lot of prospect value.
@seam- Maybe, but if they ate all of Suarez’s comment, maybe not.
I’m not convinced the Mariners are giving up much the way the Reds have behaved lately.
Did they get the memo that the draft is now a lottery?
Light on prospects. It’s a salary dump.
Pure and simple.
Crazy seeing all the salary dumps after the new CBA was signed. All the scuttlebutt from the lockout made it seem like teams were all flush with cash. Guess that isn’t the case for every team.
Owners will not lose money if the don’t want to. 2020 short season no fans. Lots of non tenders and trades. Player’s get more money in new cba, time to dump salary.
Did you just ignore everything from the owners side in order to draw that conclusion?
Nope. Just know some owners want all that they can get.
I’m sure the Reds fans won’t like a LHP who struck out 37% of all batters he faced last yr. A guy with a FB that has 22” of induced vertical movement, a fastball that Baseball America described as THE best FB in the minors last yr. What’s to like?
It’s not a signing…
Not necessarily giving up anything of value. Cincy’s having a fire sale.
Reds will like Williamson. Good looking lefty.
Pardon me. Love this Deal!
The Reds are going entirely out of their way not to try.
It’s like a remake of the movie Major League.
This guy here is dead
Cross him off then!
I thought he played in the Mexican league
This isn’t the California penal league vaughn
Most of those guys never had a prime
That movie should be a requirement to watch at the beginning of every season.
The Reds bout to be kicked from the MLB and will be a KBL team by tonight at midnight
I’m not sure their team as it sits now could hang in the KBL.
nah, if the orioles are still somehow considered a big league team then the reds will be fine.
The O’s aren’t a major league team, they just have a major league schedule
Join us, A’s fans, during these difficult times.
Don’t lump the A’s in on this. At least Oakland’s trying to get a competitive return for their players.
What they need to try to do is get a new baseball stadium instead of that concrete $#ithole they try to pass off as one. Unfortunately, soon enough they’ll be the Vegas or Nashville A’s.
No they’re trying…to edge the Pirates out for last place.
Diamondbacks: Hold my beer.
I am going out of my way to cease to support them.
WHOA, changing the landscape of the AL West in a big way.
Because … neither of these teams is in the Al East?
Um. How?
???
Angels in shambles
Al east?
Reds giving up? Who’s next reds fans? You think they would trade Castillo now?
Votto, Castillo and the farm system for the rights of staying in the MLB for one more year
Why would the Reds bother to keep Castillo or Mahle at this point?
India next.
Usually that would be a joke…but not so sure these days.
Good one!
Mariners are gonna be scary next year. They’ll put up a good fight against the Astros for the division.
Agree. That may be why the Astros decided to step up the pursuit of Carlos Correa
Oh… what about this year ?
I was starting to worry about Trader Jerry. Glad to know he’s ok.
Hahaha
you know the lockout was driving him crazy.
100 whole days without a trade?
dude was going through withdrawls big time.
Guess Kris Bryant isn’t going to Seattle 🙁
M’s are eating Suarez’ salary to get Winker. Suarez isn’t going to be blocking the acquisition of anyone, let alone Bryant.
While I agree with your first sentence I sort of disagree with the second. Why would the Ms want two 3rd basemen? I can see them moving away from Bryant. They got a huge bat in Winker.
They don’t want two. They want Winker. They just had to take a pretty bad 3B too in order to get him
Bryant is much more of an OF at this point who can occasionally spell at 3B. But I agree that they may have walked away from him.
Unless they have some 3B depth at AAA, they seen to be light in that area. Yeah, $11M is a lot to pay for utility/depth, but Suarez would be a huge upgrade over Dylan Moore or Donovan Walton. If the M’s are seriously going for it, I think Suarez as the regular 3B, with Moore or Walton as depth, is weak.
The M’s have Toro on their roster for 3B and Noelvi Marte in the minors on his way up. They don’t really need Suarez to be a long-term answer at 3B. If he can backup SS and hit a little he can play.
I also foolishly forgot the DH
Suarez at 11MM is not overpriced. He should easily outperform Seager for less money.
He is basically Seager with a better track record of hitting for average. 2020 was an anomaly. Last year he still had pop but batted .200, M’s banking on him getting back to around .250 with 30hr’s Ill take that. I think Bryant is off our radar now. Go get another SP and i think we are ready to roll
Seager had a 2.0 WAR last year. Suarez had -0.7 WAR. Yeah, should easily outperform Seager.
Suarez could bounce back. Maybe not mvp contender but certainly better. Very well could earn his salary.
or he could continue to be bad.
True but that’s still worth doing the trade.
Just mind boggling at this point…
Pathetic.
Jerry’s gonna Jerry….now we know what he’s been up to.
The return is just so awful
the return is not out yet
nvm return is out
What’s the return?
Wow. Not a great return. Dunn and the prospect are decent but Fraley only walks, not alot of anything else
I can’t stay silent any longer. The two Ohio teams don’t spend any money ever and they have ridiculous name changes. It’s time for the two franchises to merge into a new Columbus franchise. Ohio only needs one team.
You can go back to being silent now.
Kind of like the Reds? Their franchise has been silent for decades.
He’s just sad he lost his franchise’s icon today. Hug that Freddie Freeman bobblehead tight, sweet prince.
Yep… I’ll never call the Wahoo’s anything but the Wahoo’s. It’s like when the Redskins changed their name – I really wish Dan Snyder had re-named them the Washington Republicans to spite the Beltway liberals attempting to ruin America day by day. Either way, the Reds dumped salary. Wish my Nationals could have gotten in on the Winker action for that low of a price.
OH PLEASE who gives a Rat’s patootie what the name of the franchise is…good thing some people don’t have any real issues to gripe about.
Apparently a lot of people…or at least some loud ones…otherwise they wouldn’t have bothered changing them.
@48-team MLB
You can’t be a major league city without major league baseball. That’s the rule. You can have an NBA, NFL, or NHL franchise, but none of those make you major league. Columbus isn’t major league and never will be, no matter how much sprawl makes you think it is..
@Avory
What you said makes no sense. No city has an MLB team until they do.
Name me one city in the majors that doesn’t scream major league status. You can’t do that in any other sport. Meaning, Columbus isn’t getting anything it doesn’t already have. You have to have a certain gravitas to be a major league city. Even Tampa-St. Petersburg is the real deal. Columbus is not. Just the way it is. Either you got it or you don’t. There’s no Green Bay or Oklahoma City or Raleigh or Jacksonville or Winnipeg or San Antonio in the major leagues. Or Columbus.
The entire states of California and Texas had zero MLB teams at one point. No, Columbus does not compare to those markets but it does put holes in your argument. Columbus would draw more fans than either of the Florida teams.
The Athletics of the Midwest. Sad for baseball.
To get both, who does Seattle give up? They might as well get Castillo too. Give like 5 of their top 10 prospects.
The return should be interesting. Winker alone would have gotten a Kings ransom, but adding in Suarez and his contract should bring the return down. Maybe there is hope for the Padres of trading Hosmer after all.
The Cubs have sufficient payroll space to take Hosmer and Myers off the Padres ha ds so that the Padres can sign the Japanese kid. But are the Padres willing to give up both Abrams and Gore?
To answer your question, no they are not.
the Hosmer deal isn’t comparable to Suarez. It’s $34M for Suarez to $59M for Hosmer. The Pads need to attach someone better than Winker if they hope to move that deal. It’s hard to imagine them attaching anyone good enough to entice another team to take Hosmer.
Hosmer and CJ Abrams to the Cubs for Miguel Amaya and a couple of pieces of organizational fille r. Which side turns the deal down?
The Cubs. Doesn’t make sense for them to trade a really good catching prospect
The Cubs would be helping SD for no reason. Cubs don’t need Hoz. Myers might be interesting.
I think Amaya lost too much development time the last two years. I’d rather see them trade Amaya than one of their other comparable hitting prospects.
The trade is severely lopsided in the Mariners favor. Fraley is barely a 4th OF, Dunn is inconsistent and had arm injuries last year. Williamson is the best get. Fast riser in the Mariners system. Throws gas with good command. Still seems light though for what the Ms got
Consensus seems to be that it was a salary dump
You can’t judge Fraley and Dunn by viewing BR or Fangraphs to look at their very limited time in MLB. Jake is a power-speed combo guy w an advanced sense of the K-Zone. He’s still inexperienced but that BA will come up. The kid has a ‘great eye.’ He def has 20/20 in his locker- He’s had some swing and miss problems over his short time in MLB but that’s to be expected in this ‘age of the pitcher.’
Dunn came over as the Mets best pitching prospect- he was SO freaking nervous in his abbreviated 2020 debut season he struggled with command issues. He has good stuff tho evident in his last month before his season ending injury In 2021. In May he had a 2.52 ERA with a 10.4 SO9 over 25 IP then his season was derailed by injury after pitching in 11g total.
One would be foolish to judge Fraley and Dunn by only checking their MLB stats- both are young and have yet to have enough time to prove their Top Prospect status.
No, Winker would not have gotten a king’s ransom. He had a career year last year, but still only produced a 2.7 WAR. He can’t hit LHP at all – his career average vs. LHP is .188 with an OPS Of .600, and last year, he was even worse (.177 and .572). His fielding is beyond awful (-1.1 dWAR), and that’s playing in Great American Small Park, which is really, really easy to play corner OF in (there isn’t much room to cover there). T-Mobile isn’t exactly Citi field, but it has more OF room than GABP.
He’s basically a platoon DH with two years of control left.
Brutal, Poor Joey…
All due respect enough “ poor Joey “ talk … he makes 25 mil a year. If you break that down by game, then at bat , then average of 5 pitches seem per at bat … he makes $7700 for every pitch he sees. Joey will be OK
Let’s go!
Sell the freaking team. Worst owner in baseball.
Says the fans of 25 or more teams….
So tiresome. I can’t believe you think your team is any different than anyone else’s. Wake up.
Reds fans deserve far better
Wow. Seattle built a strong farm. This is will take a hit.
Nah
Not really. Williamson was expected to be in a trade.
Not at all, actually. Love BW but Fraley and Dunn are nothing special. Great trade for Ms.
Now that the return is published, I agree with the posters above.
No hit to the farm, added a stud player, huge win for Seattle.
Halo- not sure about that when only 1 prospect was traded. I’m pretty certain Fraley and Dunn have lost their prospect status and we should still have 4 or 5 prospects in the Top 100.* Julio, G Kirby, Emerson Hancock, Noelvi Marte and Harry Ford. Don’t be surprised if Matt Brash is also added to this years MLB 2022 Top 100. Our system is still loaded.
*depending on who’s Top 100.
Whoa. For what kind of return I wonder?
Lifelong Reds fan. Will not spend another dime while Castellini still owns the team. There was no reason for this!!! After trading Gray, how low did payroll have to be? Votto should waive his no trade clause and go try for a ring!
I totally agree.
Thirded. Votto should demand to be let out of there. I wonder if Toronto is still interested all these years later? But the best fit? Yankees!
@Curveball1984- I agree with you 100% regarding Votto. If the Reds trade him and Luis Castillo to the Yankees they can definitely pull in a haul of prospects. Alexander Vargas a shortstop, Clarke Schmidt, or Luis Gil, Everson Pereira, Michael King, Domi Ge
50 years invested in this team to get kicked in the teeth again by the management of this organization. I am officially done with them.
Got nothing good back and trade an excellent hitter just to dump Suarez. Lol
Holy crap wow.
I thought Winker alone would fetch more than that, the addition of Suárez makes this a steal for the Mariners
Suarez is dead weight
Suarez has negative value, thus Winker’s inclusion
Suarez I’d definitely not dead weight
You’re wrong, but ok.
Me too … Winker can flat out rake … great hitter.
Jesse winker is a great hitter? The word great is so watered down. Winker’s career highs: games -113 Hrs-24 rbis-71 runs-77 abs-423
For the WAR lovers 2.7 last year. 5.4 career. Ill admit his triple slash is excellent but lets not put jerry dipoto in the hall yet cause of this trade
Winker isn’t great except in one aspect of the game, where he is superlative: hitting RHP. He’s indisputably an asset there. But he can’t run, he’s an awful fielder, and he’s a lifetime .188/.305/.295/.600 hitter (and he was WORSE last year, if you can believe that!) I mean, let that sink in: .295 slugging vs. LHP. That means he can’t really play everyday, because he’s also terrible in the field and on the bases. He’s a limited player who is “great” in very specific situations playing baseball. I’m sorry, I don’t give up the farm for that As it turns out, Seattle didn’t have to. All they had to do was take on some dead weight.
He’s also had his share of injuries. I never understood why people thought he was going to command a massive return. He’s a good, not great player with 2 years of control. Valuable, certainly…but not what some people seemed to think.
Suzuki must have moved on
Nice addition for Seattle. Winker is going to provide a good engine to start the offense.
Well I’m done with the Reds after being a lifelong fan.
Another DUNN with the reds fan
Great deal for the M’s… Reds not so much, but they saved money.. yay?
THE STOVE IS HOTTTTTT!!!!
Too hot. Prefer a nice steady stream.
Oh damn. Winker and Suarez. I think Suarez is due for a bounce back in a big way. Man, Seattle is looking great.
Wow, I’m shocked the Reds traded Winker. I understand getting Suarez off the roster but losing Winker is a huge blow to the Reds offense. Looks like they are going full rebuild in Cincinnati.
More like full on salary dump it seems. Pretty ugly way to rebuild.
A rebuild would mean they trade high value players like Winker for maximum prospect value and ride out their underwater contracts for a couple of years. This is a blatant salary dump.
Literally got Zero for Winker wow
Williamson is a significant prospect. And they got rid of Suarez’ contract, which was way underwater. That’s value — a lot of it — too.
That’s Zero value for Winker. They got zero top 100 prospects in this deal. The Reds gave away Winker for free.
Williamson made at least one top 100 list.
Williamson is close to the majors and may be a solid mid rotation piece as soon as now. Dunn still has some potential even if its fading. I actually think they did well depending on the additional player.
Several lists including BA (if I remember correctly) have Williason in the top 100.
I know nothing about williamson but br shows he struck out 153 in 98.1 innings last year between high a abd double a. 6’6 lefty? That sounds very intriguing
That’s not all star trade value
That’s not what literally means, you’re wrong about no top 100…way to shift the goal posts. Epically awful take, good work.
Flaming bag of poop is appropriate because that’s what the Reds got for Winker.
Winker is a great example of how much the term “All Star” is. I think in the long run the Reds fans will be very happy with the trade.
Williamson, but that’s it. I feel for Reds fans.
Not an elite prospect and will never be an All star that’s still nothing.
I’m not a Reds fan, but Bob Castellini needs to sell the team. He is horrible for baseball.
Mariners are doing a lot great things this offseason.
What a terrible return for the Reds. What a cheapskate owner Castellini is.
For Fraley, Dunn, and Williamson?! Hahahahahahaha Go Mariners!
Bro the Reds are a joke at this point
Sure glad I’m not a Reds fan.
They might regret trading Williamson away. They just took a hit on their starting pitching depth too between him and Dunn so I’m assuming that’s the next shoe to drop.
Dunn is likely a bullpen arm
Dunn is likely a bullpen arm but still some chance he’s a back end starter and has that slider so possibly a good bullpen arm. It’s still a loss even if a waning one.
Dunn looked like a starter to me. However I didn’t get to see him pitch after june 21st so.
Robbie Ray, Marco Gonzales, Chris Flexin,Logan Gilbert, Justice Sheffield, Emerson Hancock’s, George Kirby, Matt Brash. The Mariners were trading from strength. Losing Dunn and Williamson and gaining 2 everyday players is definitely worth it.
I dont disagree but I think they need another arm now, hopefully one with only a year or two commitment unless they’re actually good. Kirby could be good and would hate to see him blocked by an overpay on a backend starter.
Ill admit i know very little about Winker but for seattle WIlliamson, from my recount of our prsopects, is the only REAL loss here. Dunn has had too many issues and Fraley never got his feet under him.
Sounds like a good get.
Brewer fan here, very surprised that a Reds team that was on the rise seems to be throwing in the towel. It really leaves the Brewers and Cards as the only contenders in the division (sorry, Cubs). Can any Reds fans explain what’s going on there?
Cubs may flirt with the #6 playoff spot if the Reds and Pirates have decided to just field their AAA teams.
But yeah, Milwaukee and St. Louis should both be going all out now for the best NL record at this point.
Castellini sux
All depends on what moves the Cubs make. They haven’t done anything significant, yet they’re linked to everyone. NLC will come down to what it always does… Cubs, Cards & Brewers. The only three teams who care to even show up & exist. The Reds & Bucs need to just be dissolved at this point.
@cheeseman Not sure many seen reds on rise. Couple 500 is years. Lost their best pitcher in Bauer. One of or best bats in Cast. Awful contract with Moose. Votto best days behind him. Horrible front office. They are dumping salary and picking up prospects although not as many as they should have.
I thought the Reds would target Williamson here. Very much fits what they’re looking for. Disappointing the Reds feel they have to get out from under the Suarez deal, too — it’s really not that terrible of a contract considering its term.
He can form a 2024 rotation with his college buddy Nick Lodolo (they were the 1-2 punch at TCU).
Be careful Reds fans, the way the Reds are selling off the roster, some of you might be moved at some point this offseason lol. Anybody involved in with the Reds in anyway is not safe at this point. Lol
BREAKING NEWS: Mr. Red, Mr. Redlegs, Rosie Red & Gapper have been traded to Seattle for the Mariner Moose, an Ivar Dog, and a signed Jerry Cantrell poster. Bob Castellini released a statement calling the trade “a move for the future of this franchise”.
Might be moved? Hell, I’m demanding a trade!
I’ll miss Fraley and Dunn but we’re deep enough.
it’s apparent the Suzuki and Bryant run are over. still good move for both much at all.
Damn would hate to be a Reds fan right now. Castellini should be forced to sell embarrassing.
Reds, Pirates, Nationals already guaranteed to be a part of the draft lottery. Remaining three to be determined.
Mets are number 4
Who hurt you?
I like o’s and dbacks. Royals Rookies will give it a strong run.
Yeah , Orioles and Diamondbacks are pretty much locks, too. Especially, given the divisions they play in.
That’s a…bad deal for the Reds.
Bitter Reds fan here to once again state that the Reds are freaking idiots. Winker should have been a cornerstone of the rebuild.
How in the world can a guy who has to be platooned, and can’t run or field, be called a “cornerstone”?
He was an All-Star last year that hit .305 with 24 HR. He wasn’t going to be a platoon player anymore.
Did you even LOOK at what he hit vs. LHP last year? .177/.288/.284/.572. Five-seventy-two! YOU may call that all-star play, but to me it looks like what NL pitchers hit last year. No good team would ever run that guy out there everyday and if they did (which would be dumb, as lousy as he fields), he should bat no higher than 9th against LHP.
Him being an All-Star is an objective fact, not an opinion. Also, he wasn’t going to be a platoon player for the Reds anymore, due to his stats (and probably also the fact that the Reds outfield is severely lacking without Castellanos). What the Mariners do with him may be another story. But he was one of the Reds best players.
He’s 28, has injury concerns and only 2 more years of control…not much of a corner stone? The rebuild that he’d have been a cornerstone to has already failed.
@Randomguy, or at minimum, he shouldn’t have been used to attach Suarez in a salary dump. Trading Winker as a stand-alone player would have brought back more than they got in this deal.
Fraley has nowhere to go here and Dunn has his own bugs to work out that can’t happen on a team that should be gunning for the playoffs. Williamson is the one of consequence to lose and even though it’s sucks to lose him, it makes sense for us.
Trammel has nowhere to go either
What is it with these teams? They all seem to be focused on a race to the cellar. What happened to reaching for the World Series pennant.
They realized they didn’t have much of a chance and so it’s irrational to spend more than you have to. This is why tanking happens. It’s economic and a direct result of the superteam phenomenon.
This trade is… interesting, not at all thrilled by this one. Jerry just needs to spend the money.
As an Ms fan I feel the same way. I liked Fraley before he started hitting a couple Hr’s. After that he started striking out much more
Where tf were the Jays on this one….why they werent in on this is incomprehensible! They need a LH outfielder and desparately need a 3rd baseman(i wouldnt take Suarez on his own but packaged with Winker, this is a steal)!!!
Is the player to he named later the reincarnation of Stan musial? If not it’s still not a great return
Dang I was hoping the Angels would have taken moose and winkler to give reds salary relief and then the angels could have traded adell for pitching
In all seriousness, new CBA deal, but the MLB is allowing this? These incompetent “owners” who can sell off whoever they want. How is that healthy for the game of baseball.. Reds fans should spit in that owners face. Really should.
Ah yes, battery is certainly the answer to being upset about a baseball transaction!
If you can’t afford a major league payroll, sell the team. Once again CIN ships out a valuable asset for an incredibly light return. They continue to just give players away.
Affording payroll has NOTHING to do with who the owner is. Owners do NOT pay players from their own wealth. Payroll comes from revenue, not the owners pocket. This is like elementary school business here why are so many fans incapable of getting this?
While I generally agree, I wouldn’t say payroll has absolutely nothing to do with the owner’s wealth. Since the owners keep their books private we have no way of knowing for sure. George Steinbrenner was supplementing the Yankees from his ship-building business, but admittedly that is probably an exception.
The real issue is that owners set the budget. Some owners apparently want to make more profit from their team’s revenue than others. A lot of the wealthiest owners have other sources of income, and it’s about the prestige, so they don’t mind their team making less profit. So owner wealth is a factor, even if it isn’t as directly a one as many think.
The fact remains, for the vast majority of owners, big market or small (all of whom have the same enormous fixed costs of running a team, by the way, that doesn’t vary by market) spend roughly the same % of recurring revenue on team operations. It doesn’t vary that much. What comes in, you take your cut, you set a budget, you fund fixed costs, and whatever’s left over can be used for discretionary portions of MLB payroll. It’s not rocket science and it’s not good (big markets willing to spend) vs evil (small market owners pocketing money). That’s all silliness. There’s no virtue in any of them. But bashing Reds owners for an unwillingness to run their team as a charitable foundation is as ridiculous as saying the Yankee owner or Cubs owner would do anything different were they in Cincinnati’s shoes.
Without looking into it, I’d be surprised if the costs don’t vary by market and I say that just based on what larger market teams pay their front office people vs. smaller market teams, I wouldn’t be shocked if that trickles down to what they pay grounds crew, janitors, etc.
As I understand it the Reds owner has been using his net baseball revenue to offset financial losses in his other business interests. He’s trying to maximize short term cash flow by cutting immediate costs from baseball operations (payroll). The baseball cuts wouldn’t occur with another owner who’s not so highly leveraged.
Do you have a source for this?
Cuz rich man bad, reeeee. People aren’t capable of critical thinking, they just regurgitate the talking points they’re given. I’m guessing the average age of posters on this site has declined in the last 5 or so years.
What the hell are the Reds doing? Suarez will have a monster year now that he is healthy. Krall better have a plan! Damn Russian!! We gonna sign anybody? Un-fning-believable
And the Phillies still do nothing.
Interesting. This seems like the Mariners won, but BTV says that it’s the other way around. baseballtradevalues.com/trades/trade-75890/
Seattle can afford it.
Lets start the rumor. Reds are just clearing payroll to sign Correa. Time to earn your money, Boras!
That seems pretty bullish on Williamson
Castillo on the move? Angels, get it done come onnnnnn
Yes cook! I have posted this a few times on various sites. Angels or Texas would bring back the biggest haul because IMO these two teams REALLY need him more that most. Angeles can not continue to let Trout and Ohtani wither on the vine while their pitching continues to let them down. Texas because they spent a kizillion on hitting and need pitching to be in real contention.
Pure salary dump
I’m sure they will make up for the 100 loss season with some really cool bobblehead giveaways
Was only a matter of time before Dipoto got in on the fun
Fraley will draw walks and HBP but he is clueless in the field and runs like he’s 40 years old. Justin Dunn is a likeable kid and easy to root for…just needs to figure out the injury bug and likely a shift to the bullpen. Williamson has great promise but we have a dozen guys like that on our farm…M’s are LOADED!
I am A-OK with this trade. Now onwards to Freddy Freeman!!! And a trade for Montas!! or Mannea. Lookin good Jerry!
Winker gives the M’s the LH thumper they needed in the middle of the order. He is way better than Fraley. Losing the two pitchers is not a big deal as the Mariners are loaded with pitching. Brash and Kirby are ready plus Dipoto is not done making moves. This looks like a steal even if Suarez doesn’t hit. He can backup JP Crawford at SS and make Dillon Moore expendable without hitting at all. $11M per year on his deal is easy for the M’s to swallow.
No wonder Boras is putting out rumors about Bryant. His market just dried up.
I am thrilled, man. I actually like Suarez as a bounce back. Winker is one of the best left handed hitters in baseball.
From our end, Williamson could be a beast, he’s got a nasty strikeout rate. Fraley: I love the guy.
Pros: he’s extremely talented, can play a little center for ya, one of THE BEST EYES in baseball (I’m not kidding guys it’s Youk-esque) a legit future 20-20 threat with a Great Walk rate.
Cons: injury prone and anti vax, sometimes misses pitches to hit trying to get a walk. Misses opportunity to be aggressive.
Dunn, meh. He’s got a couple nice pitches, looked great with some big training wheels on last season and yet he still got hurt. Didn’t seem to make the recovery that was expected. Honestly will not be missed.
The only part about this trade I’m concerned with is the ptbnl….
Trader Jerry on the move. Wow. Winkler is a huge get IMO.
Your move Perry……………………………
Wow! Reds making a run at the bottom of the Central this year.
Sorry, Reds fans. This is roster brutality.
Reds better trade Castillo and Mahle for some fans. They just lost all the ones they had. They’re gonna have the lowest payroll in baseball and still lose money. Nobody is going to watch them lose 120 games.
Sad day for Cinci baseball….
I feel bad for Reds fans.
Adding Ray, Frazier and Winker is a great off-season so far for the Mariners! Not sold on Suarez, and wondering if he was actually acquired to be their primary third baseman. I’ll hope not, and hope Bryant is still in play. How awesome would that be?
i like suarez, hits for power and has hit .250 or better in 6 of 8 seasons. I would not mind seeing him as an everday 3b with Toro spelling him occasionally. He does strikeout a lot, but so did seager. Just not sure on how good his glove is
Reds played him at SS so there’s that.
Gino can’t hit the hook on the outside part of the plate…ever.
Reds to trade India and Votto to Name the team for a hot dog vendor and a rookie beer vendor to be named later.
I was excited for baseball to come back after the CBA agreement. I see it’s not coming back for me after all. Reds ownership… go f yourself!
what a joke
Have to give Seattle and Texas ownership props. OAK is resetting, LA is, well, LA and HOU becomes more vulnerable. If every franchise hit their windows of opportunity like this it be a much better sport.
Maybe the PTBNL will be Winker going back to the Reds…
The Mariners are getting better and that’s good for baseball, so I like that.
Reds fans I feel sorry for you.
I was all for Cincy doing a short rebuild, but they are giving players away. Suarez is likely to revert a lot, now that the crazy SS experiment is over with. And Winker is an AS.
Dunn has a 8.1/6.0 K/W thru parts of three seasons. Might be time to give up on him. Same with Fraley with a ..656 OPS in parts of three seasons. Williamson has some promise, but FG only has him as a 45+ prospect.
Three guys that Seattle will never miss in exchange for market-priced 3B and an AS LF. Crazy good trade for Settle, imo.
Fwiw fangraphs update has Williamson as a 50 FV and is now a top 100 on several lists. His stock went up last year.
Saurez has fallen that far that he’s an “oh yeah, he’s in the deal, too”?
He’ll probably get his game back on track with a new team and a solid position.IMO
(SS Exp in Cinci)
PTBNL is JRod
haha yea right
Seattle got a middle of the order bat or maybe two for depth pieces they can easily replace. Well done!
According to the Mariners it is PTBNL or cash considerations so no major prospect. Good trade by Jerry.
I say Cincinnati boycott all Reds game, don’t buy any Reds merchandise until the owner sells the team. We deserve better then his crap from Castellini as Hamilton County allowed higher taxes to build the Reds a new stadium.
What kinda dollar store sh@@ is this? I mean as a Reds fan who’s dealt with this kind of banana bobs ownership strategy this is nuts. how the hell do they actually expect fans to support this.
Terrible return for Cincinnati
It’s already apparent the new CBA did absolutely nothing to address the tanking issue. Still plenty of teams with no interest in competing.
Where were the Guardians? Winker would have been a great addition.
Didn’t Sea just let a low BA, high k, power hitting 3b retire??
Ya, Dunn gave up alot of BB, but 6.1 h/9inn! And a good k rate.
Winker for Williamson and fraley-yes. Not to hip on Saurez@ 35m/2yrs. Rather have Seagar back for 1 more
Looking forward to what “enhanced return” might mean to Cincinnati. $100 gift card at Banana Republic?
Votto money and Castillo to Toronto
Jordan Groshans and and a PTBNL to cinci.
Add Moustakas to that trade and depending who the PTBNL (a solid prospect) is you have a deal sir.
🙂
Of course Votto would have to agree, no trade clause.
A for M’s. 2 years of a cheap great bat. Suarez could earn his salary or at least more than people think. A nice prospect but not one of their elite ones. A outfielder they can easily replace and have no need for. I don’t see him amounting to anything to be concerned about. They know Dunn more than the reds do.
D for Reds. Feel like they could have done better. At worst only traded Winkler. 1 prospect and a pitcher who could be a backend starter if the sticky didn’t help him too much.
This seems like a really good trade for the Ms from my view. Am I missing something here? I’d say the Ms filled some critical needs here with some good Reds players. I don’t see the return value.
Hey Clipper, which would you rather have: Suarez or Kyle Seager back for 1 more year? If Suarez can rebound abit, then put another feather in DiPoto cap.
I’d rather have Seager back for 1 more.
Hope winker can balance out his splits vs Lefty’s, and stay healthy.
@yankee I don’t think so. Unless the ptbnl is a top 5 prospect or something. Likely not much or settle for cash.
I’m not a fan of either team but I think the Reds did quite well in this deal. They got the M’s to eat ALL of the Suarez contract and he’s been garbage the past two years. He might be out of baseball soon.
Winker can hit only righties and sucks defensively so he’s barely better than a platoon DH. He’s overrated.
Those are 3 pretty good prospects they’re getting back plus one more to come! They did well here. No one wants Suarez and Winker is not that special. Injury prone, too.
Actually this is true. Winker is what we know he is, a guy you want to leave the glove at home and take at bats against righties. Nothing more or less. He will serve the Ms purpose as a platoon DH type player.
The Reds just were not going to get a bucketload for a overpriced sliding veteran and a one trick pony.
They didn’t get a lot. Fraley is a platoon guy himself, but does have some power and speed. He may actually be a poor man version of Winkler. Dunn not sure about. Williamson really settled in at AA after a slow start there and looks to me like he has a floor of a late inning lefty or even a SP. If that control comes Williamson is the guy to watch here.
As a lifelong Reds fan I’m just gut sick over this as well as the dump for nothing of Gray. Castillo and Mahle will be given away next for a handful of shiny glass beads. Glad I didn’t pull the trigger on that season ticket weekend package, I’m buying a nice kayak and spending my evenings and weekends bass fishing.
When was the last time a PTBNL was a true asset?? Not buying it…Bob C….is a friggin joke. He needs to sell the team to someone that cares. F this nepotistic team….and F Nick Krall a former towel boy who has no clue.
M’s need A front line pitcher now and a bullpen lefty. If we can do that we should be able to compete in the playoffs.
I say just give Kirby the 5th spot. Perhaps sign a long reliever type who can spot start here or there. Sheffield is not the answer.
Man, if I was a Reds fan I would be so PO’d right now! I believe Winker is bound for a breakout season (even more than he has done already) and what Seattle gave up will amount to nothing! If JW can stay healthy, he is going to rake and the Mariners fans will absolutely LOVE this trade in the end. Wish the Tigers would have been offered this deal!
He had a breakout season last season…problem is his glove is horrible and he can’t hit LHP
Winker is half a player. You need a RH who can’t hit LHP for the other half, and then you have to hope the other team doesn’t bring in an oppy RP.
When will we hear from Krall about how awesome this trade is for the Reds??????
As a lifelong Reds fan, I honestly wish Cincy would give Votto to Toronto for future litte leaguer… Might as well let him retire at home with a team that, at least, tries to win…
“Both pitchers would bring back a haul” in reference to Castillo and Mahle being traded. NOT WITH THIS FRANCHISE! They’ll take your never been 26 year old players and a borderline top 10 prospect (in your franchise)…. if that!
“a haul”?
name the most recent SP trades that brought back a haul?
Gray?
Bassit?
Scherzer? Trea was also part of that trade. Yes, Dodgers sent some good Prospects.
People sleep on Suarez as a player for sure. Dude can rake. If healthy, he could easily hit 40 bombs. Him and Winkler tormented my brewers for quite a while
Suarez has 129 jacks since 2018. That’s the most in baseball
Yeah, the trouble is that he’s another Rob “Oh” Deer. If he doesn’t hit a dinger, he strikes out.
“The M’s continue to push forward in an effort to hang with the Astros (and perhaps the Angels) at the top of the AL West.”
The Angels have MLB’s longest current streak of consecutive losing seasons.
Not the Pirates. Not the Orioles.
The Angels.
But it seems that Anthony is high on the Angels.
The mariners are a far better team than the Angels. Like seriously?
ghastly
As a Angels Fan I have a feeling either…
Castillo is traded to the Angels for either Walsh or Adell.
OR
The Angels sign Freeman (Local Boy) and trade Walsh for Castillo.
Huge get for the M’s.
” the front office continues to maintain they’re not punting on the 2022 campaign.”
They ARE punting on the ’22 campaign.
They might be planning/hoping to somehow reload for ’23 – or more likely ’24. Conceivably, they might actually believe THAT themselves. 🙂 I hope they do.
Krall will have team’s lining up now to pick the bones of the Reds’ roster clean. Hey, we’ll send Mahle your way no problem. Just take Moustakas and his contract, send us a couple middling prospects to make it look legit, and we’ve got a deal!
As a Brewers fan, I fully endorse this trade
Suarez doesn’t have to be Jose Ramirez. He just has to be better than Dylan Moore. He can provide a nice bridge to Noelvi Marte.
I’m kind of surprised it took DiPoto this long to make a trade since the lockout ended
Everyone acting like Jesse Winker is some type of superstar. Look at his splits. He is a platoon player in this league. He cannot hit LHP to save his life.
All star, not super star
Something that is interesting with suarez, his batting started slipping during the shortened 2020 season, .Then in 2021 the reds experimented with him using him at short stop for 34 games which turned out to be 285 inning at ss. Im hoping that the mariners plant him at 3rd base and it helps him to concentrate on his batting and not have to worry about trying to play ss.
He damaged his shoulder in the offseason before the 2020 season. Jumping into a pool or something like that. I think he’ll have a good season this year.
Well one bonus as a Reds fan living in TX: I can save the money I was going to spend on the MLB package and get back the 15-20 hours a week I would have devoted to watching and supporting them. Guess I’ll enjoy the pool and more golf.
Someone let me know when Castellini sells and I’ll come back to being a fan.
Castellini probably putting the Reds profit into his Castellini Produce company located in Wilder Kentucky. I think MLB should start an investigation into Castellini.
How do Winker and Suarez’s glove help sea?
We know they can hit.
Maybe I wasn’t following, but I don’t think anyone said that Winker and Suarez’ gloves would help? did anyone say that, like ever in the history of the world?
Not necessarily a great deal for either team, honestly. SEA made a terrible deal. Cincy didn’t get a ton, but if Williamson hits his potential ….
SEA made a horrible deal, in my opinion. It’s not just what they got. It’s what they spent to get it. Winker is arb-eligible, and will likely get $7M this year and maybe $8M in 23. Suarez is due 11.3M for the next three years. So they spent close to $20M per year for Winker and Suarez. Winker is a great DH vs. RHP. That’s it. Against LHP, he’s a AA player at best, and if you play him in the OF, he’s a terrible fielder who gets hurt all the time.
Suarez is a $34M strike-out machine. His OPS+ last year was 80. He doesn’t even draw a lot of BBs like he used to. His defense has deteriorated. He’s basically a pinch hitter nowadays. I’m not sure he beats out Abraham Toro, who isn’t very good himself.
So the M’s just spent $50M (2 years of Winker and three of Suarez) for very little. They could have gone out and spent the same money and gotten a really GOOD player (say at $17M for three years) without having to trade away anyone.
As for the Reds, who knows. They gave up two years of Winker in exchange for (a) $11.3M per year for the next three years (Suarez) (b) one good prospect (Williamson) (c) two other prospects that are low-floor, high-ceiling and (d) the PTBNL (would be really funny if it were Taylor Trammell, but I suspect it will be someone in A ball). Could be a great trade for the Reds, could be worthless. No one knows right now.
All in all, meh ….
Amazing what happens when a person really looks into things and does not just make an emotional knee jerk reaction to something.