Shohei Ohtani has been diagnosed with a tear in the ulnar collateral ligament of his pitching elbow, general manager Perry Minasian told reporters (including Rhett Bollinger of MLB.com). He will not pitch again in 2023. It isn’t clear if he’ll require surgery; Jeff Fletcher of the Orange County Register writes that Ohtani is seeking a second opinion before making that decision.
Ohtani started the first game of today’s doubleheader against the Reds. He departed in the second inning with what the team initially announced as arm fatigue. Minasian told the Halos’ beat that he underwent imaging between games and learned of the ligament damage. He nevertheless played in the nightcap as the designated hitter, going 1-5.
The extent of the injury isn’t clear. A full tear of the UCL typically requires a complete Tommy John repair. Partial tears can sometimes be resolved by either a less invasive internal brace procedure or by non-surgical rehab altogether. The Angels will surely provide more details on Ohtani’s treatment options in the days and weeks to come.
Even if he avoids going under the knife, it’s a seismic development for the market’s top impending free agent. The two-way superstar has been trending towards shattering the MLB contract record. While that could well still be the case, teams will now have to carefully weigh his arm health in formulating offers.
Ohtani’s elbow delayed his emergence as a generational superstar at the MLB level. He was diagnosed with a UCL tear at the end of his debut campaign in 2018. He underwent Tommy John surgery in October of that season, limiting him solely to designated hitter work for the ’19 season. Ohtani only pitched twice during the shortened 2020 schedule while battling major command woes. It wasn’t until 2021 that he was able to pitch at a top-of-the-rotation level for a full season, securing his first MVP award in the process.
Over the past three seasons, the three-time All-Star has been an ace-caliber hurler. He owns a 2.85 ERA in 427 innings going back to the start of ’21. He finished fourth in Cy Young balloting a season ago when he posted a 2.33 ERA while striking out just under a third of opponents in 166 innings.
His pitching performance had taken a slight step back this year, although he was still one of the best in the sport. In 22 starts entering play Wednesday, he’d worked to a 3.17 ERA across 130 2/3 frames. Ohtani fanned an excellent 31.4% of batters faced but battled some inconsistency in his command, walking 10.3% of opponents.
That’s of course only half the story. As was the case after his first UCL injury, he’ll be able to continue working as a designated hitter. He has been the best offensive player on the planet this year. Ohtani is hitting .304/.405/.664 through 556 plate appearances. He leads the majors with 44 homers, handily leads qualified batters in slugging and trails only Ronald Acuña Jr. and Freddie Freeman in on-base percentage.
Even were Ohtani strictly a hitter, he’d have a strong argument to win AL MVP. His pitching accomplishments make that honor a lock. He’ll remain the clear #1 free agent in next winter’s class even if surgery winds up being necessary. A DH-only version of Ohtani, if it comes to that, would still be far and away the best player on the open market. Yet there’s no doubt the elbow injury makes him a tougher evaluation for clubs. Not only might there be a possibility that Ohtani is unable to pitch for part of next season, teams will have to attempt to project how deep into his career he’s capable of carrying a workload unprecedented in modern baseball.
How the injury affects Ohtani’s market value will become clearer a few months from now. In the short term, he’ll remain in the batting order as a DH. Even if his offensive performance is no worse for wear, that’ll be a modest consolation for an organization that couldn’t have drawn up a worse August.
Since pushing in two of their top prospects for Lucas Giolito and Reynaldo López at the trade deadline, the Halos have gone 9-18. They’re a season-worst six games under .500 after being swept by the Reds. Their playoff hopes had all but evaporated even before tonight’s news both that Ohtani would no longer be able to pitch and that Mike Trout was headed back to the injured list. It has been a staggeringly brutal few weeks even for a franchise no stranger to disappointment.
Image courtesy of USA Today Sports.
Noooooooooo
Angels could have gotten enough prospects back for him to turn the ship around in a couple years but instead traded what little prospects they had away just to miss the playoffs. Bad owner. I feel sorry for angels fans
Keep in mind regardless of how much talent Ohtani has “He was always going to be just a rental this season” Not worth giving up 2 top prospects for 2 months, sorry.
*brian cashman gleefully rubbing has together thinking of signing another overrated injury prone aging vet to a bazillion dollar contract *
Only takes 1 desperate GM (probably Preller)
But for a team right on the cusp (O’s, Brewers), he’d have been a major piece of the puzzle.
As superior as ohtani is, the injury risk for a player who wants to pitch and hit consistently in mlb was always going to be high. The question is whether his career will be shortened because of doubling his workload or can the increaee in work damage him altogether?
How many Dodger Ohtani jerseys sold would have made it worth it?
@bidens_brain- Not happening at all, but you could keep dreamin’ of it if you want? I for sure won’t be.
It doesn’t matter what you think of the situation. If you consider O’Hoppe a major leaguer, then the White Sox got the Angels top prospect (top 100 overall prospect Quero) for the rental of Giolito.
There is NO QUESTION that Ohtani brings back monumentally more than Giolito, so yes, 2 top prospects is likely if not understated.
I was thinking of the Twinkies GM, failed physicals, no problem. I got $50 million for 1 year, just pretend your 100% it’s ok, no worries. Then we will offer you $500 mill for 10 years in 2025. Lmaooooo
Best player in the game by a long shot who could easily carry a true contender to a playoff spot, but not worth trading two “top prospects” (whatever that means) for a shot at winning a World Series.
You have to love these at home GMs who play too much Out of the Park Baseball and feel hoarding prospects is the goal in the sport.
You’ve got to love these pretend ignorant gms who don’t play out of the park baseball or understand analytics or probability at all, nor do they understand how any of the current gms think that think trading for a entire new team at the deadline will guarantee a World Series win. Going all in for one chance at the the World Series is the dumbest thing a gm could do in the sport. I’m not shocked you think it’s a great idea.
Easily carry a true contender to a playoff spot??? The Angels have had the two best players in the world the last 4-5 years and they haven’t even come close to the playoffs. If you want to argue that the angels aren’t a “true contender” … any team that would be considered a true contender wouldn’t be “carried” by him. Im sure his presence would add to their thump, but saying he could CARRY a team to the playoffs is completely untrue. If it were true, then he should be able to CARRY a crappy team to at least be reasonable, but even with Trout he hasn’t been able to do that. Baseball isn’t like the NBA where a team can ride one player to the promise land. A player can ABSOLUTELY carry an NBA team. But even though Ohtani makes any line up better, he can’t carry a team to the playoffs
Except, it happens all the time. But to your point, less than an Angel’s fan would want, but way more than the receiving fanbase wanted to give up.
Considering what the mets got for verlander and scherzer, which involves paying them significant money next year, I’m sure the Angels could have gotten a high-end top 100 and another on the verge. He definitely could have made a contender the favorite.
Going all in for one chance at the the World Series is the dumbest thing a gm could do in the sport.
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That’s kind of short-sighted, imo. Some teams are in good position in the standings, but with a small window. Small market teams don’t have the luxury of going for it every year. And a lot depends on the standings.
With the farm that BA has, if there was ace available (all-in is relative), I think it would make perfect sense. They already have the HFA thru the ALCS.
The Angels could have traded him last deadline for a record haul, but declined then. They could have done the same with Trout at some point. It’s sad that such elite players are defined by not getting into the playoffs.
Aging?
Spot on! 2 months of Ohtani could vault a WC team or a a team within striking distance of a division title into a much better place in the standings.
His workload? Batting as a DH 4 times a game on average isn’t going to impact him. Especially if all he does is taking a jog around the bases. Pitching is his workout and he could always turn to a six man rotation if necessary when he can pitch again.
I think the Sox found their new GM.
Ohtani is one of the fastest runners, don’t believe and check it out
Trade prospects for veterans is part of contending. The Astros have traded so many players since 2015. The only one they actually miss is Josh Hader. No one else except maybe Joe Musgrove is an impact player. There’s a balance. However, what the angels did was stupid because they had very little chance of actually making the playoffs.
This message is for all the Ohtani Trout Angel haters GET OVER IT
Here is a list of Hall of Famers that never went to the World Series
Ernie Banks
Luke Appling
Ted Lyons
Rod Carew
Ken Griffey Jr.
Edgar Martinez
Ryne Sandberg
Ron Santo
Billy Williams
Andre Dawson
Ralph Kiner
Frank Thomas
Jim Bunning
Roy Halladay
Ferguson Jenkins
Phil Niekro
Gaylord Perry
Lee Smith
Rick Ferrell
George Sisler
Nap Lajoie
Bobby Wallace
George Kell
Joe Kelley
Elmer Flick
Harry Heilmann
Willie Keeler
Jack Chesbro
Addie Joss
Ted Lyons
Rube Waddell
Lopez was also in trade, losing quero might sting but currently he’s a young 20 yr catcher with questionable defense he has good stats ( k/bb ratio) wouldn’t surprise me if he gets moved to first base.
Trout has a no trade contract??
Kinda redundant as the contract itself makes it untradeable.
I would bet he would waive it to be traded to a perennial contender.
Trout has already said he doesn’t want to play anywhere else. Not once. Not twice. But consistently everytime he has been asked for the past 5 or 6 seasons.
64th percentile.
Fast. Not near fastest.
Angels would not have gotten enough prospects for a 2 month Ohtani rental to even budge the needle on a rebuild. To do that they would have had to trade him at the 2022 deadline.
@BaseballisLife-Two top prospects in some teams top 5-10 wouldn’t have been enough for Ohtani as a rental? Eye roll, amongst other rolls. Smh.
So you’d rather get nothing than even a fraction of the value.
All of you guys who are whining about what could have been if only they would have traded him before the deadline and gotten ten top- fifty prospects for him, I’d like to give you all a piece of advice: hindsight is 20-20.
Read my comment again. I said “it wouldn’t move the needle on a rebuild”.
With that in mind.
Two things.
#1 They would not have gotten two players in top 5-10.
#2 Top 100 overall prospects become average major major league players less than 20% of the time. Average. Not superstars. Just a 2.0 WAR. So even if they did get one top 100 prospect and another outside the top 100 it wouldn’t budge the needle on a rebuild.
So keep on rolling those marbles. Explains why your reading comprehension is so low and some of your dizzy comments.
I did a quick search, and it looks like about 40% of position players “succeed in the majors’, whatever that means, but I get your point.
Having said that – the Angels gave up at least 4 of their top 30 prospects at the deadline, including 1 (i.e. 40%) top 100 position player and other players with at least some probability of making it to the show. Then, they could have added 2 top 100 prospects with similar probabilities of being a successful major leaguer to Quero by trading Ohtani and probably more with others.
Oh – and AFTER the trade deadline, Vegas had the Angels at +6600 to win the WS, so about 1.5%. So – this isn’t hindsight, it was a dumb baseball move (could be argued there were other factors involved that make it better).
71% of top 100 prospects make it to the majors. 17% have a 2.0 WAR career average. 3% have a single 4.0 WAR season in their careers.
The Angels gave up one top 100 prospect, #68 overall, and a prospect outside the top 250 for Giolito. They didn’t have any other top 100 prospects to give up. Only O’Hoppe was in the top 100.
Neither of the players they have up for Giolito and ALL of the prospects combined would not budge the needle on a rebuild for a team with a bottom 5 farm system.
Go back 20 or even 30 years and try to find a season where no team overcame a deficit as big or bigger than the Angels had at the deadline to make the playoffs. They had a shot and took it.
As a fan that is exactly what I would want. No prospects make up for a chance to see my team playing playoff baseball.
1.5% chance. I hear you, but disagree.
Fangraphs had them at 29%. BP had them at 24%. Las Vegas doesn’t tell you the chance of making it to the playoffs just of winning the pennant or World Series.
They don’t have to get two prospects from a team’s top 5-10 to make trading Ohtani worth it. They just have to get more than a 2nd/3rd round sandwich pick.
No they would not have gotten enough to rebuild, but now all they get is a 5th round draft pick as consolation
Wrong lfg. The Angels made $35 million in sponsorships this season that came in ONLY because Ohtani played for them. A large percentage of fans came to games just to see Ohtani. Moreno said in an interview that 10% of the people sitting in the stands for an Ohtani start on the mound were there just to see him. He may have been exaggerating but the point stands that many were.
The $40 million or more that they made from keeping Ohtani all season pays for a proven MLB player, not the less than 20% chance they would have that one of those prospects ever became a league average player. PLUS they get a comp pick if he walks away.
No Angel. That not all they got. See my response to LFG.
Ask me how much I care how much Angels ownership makes.
The minute Trout got hurt, it was obvious the Angels had almost no chance of making the playoffs. They should have been sellers especially on Ohtani. Now, they might as well start thinking about trading Trout because he is going to be over the hill before they can get back to contention. They will just end up paying Trout a lot of money for a few years after he is over the hill.
No one is taking on that Trout contract.
@Steve12345- Even before Trout got hurt there was no way the Angels were making the playoffs, hate to break it to you. The Halo’s should of sold Ohtani for 2 prospects at the deadline for sure. Now they will come away with nothing for a injured player.
@beyou02215- I disagree with you. If the Halo’s pay half at least half of Mike’s contract, I could see the Phillies having strong interest, and trading for him.
They can’t trade trout.
So if they pay about 130 million then they can trade him? Hope they get an absolutely massive prospect hall in that scenario
Captain-Judge99: I know all GMs are hated but I give owner Arte Moreno credit for adding top quality players to try to win a WC spot. Gio, Lopez, Grichik, Cron, etc. we’re all terrific moves. I know Gio hasn’t done as well as hoped, but at least the Angels tried.
I agree that Trout should be traded for prospects
Then the Angels could stop relying on two guys to carry the team. The responsibility will be spread out. The Phillies would be ideal for Trout since he’s from NJ. Pretty close to Philly.
@avenger65- not saying you’re not a smart guy, but this was definitely the wrong move. The Yankees adding to their roster would of been horrific. When the Yankees didn’t trade for Cody Bellinger, when Judge broke his toe, their season was over. Yes at that time a Everson Pereira, Jhony Brito/Randy Vasquez/Will Warren package would of been worth it. Crazy year man! Hope all is well.
Angels should eat 100% of the contract. Cohen style. Angels would be irrelevant for the remainder of that contract anyways.
Trout has a no trade contract his wife loves living in Crystal Cove he isn’t going anywhere!
It’s not California
I think Trout’s contract may be considered underwater, given all his injuries (and he’s not getting any younger). They wouldn’t get a ton for him.
for what? Marsh?
If he has no value with the contract, paying part of it should net them what Scherzer netted with his paid down. 1 prospect.
‘They will just end up paying Trout a lot of money for a few years after he is over the hill.’
They used to call that a ‘Ken Williams’.
Every year a team as far out or even further out makes the playoffs. So there was a chance they could do it. Anyone who says otherwise is ignoring history or just doesn’t know baseball.
Now the Angels will come away with a draft pick for Ohtani and a heap of cash he brought in during this season.
Moreno gets credit spending, but he deserves blame for terrible deals. Name one big deal that’s ever worked out: Pujols, Josh Hamilton, Rendón. These contracts hurt the team.
You don’t have to hate to break it to me. I couldn’t care less if the Angels make the playoffs nor do I really mind if they do. But, they were only three or four games out of a WC spot when Trout got hurt in early July. If he hadn’t gotten hurt, I could see why they might want to keep the band together and go for it in Ohtani’s last year. Once that injury happened, I thought it was obvious they should start shopping Ohtani and give up on the year. But, they didn’t. I thought it was a stupid decision then and it has turned out that way regardless of Ohtani getting hurt because the hole has just gotten deeper. It will probably get even deeper now that Ohtani can’t pitch but it’s irrelevent at this point.
His wife can stay then. He probably wants to win somewhere before he retires.
As long as Arte Moron sells the team after the season
Trout has a no trade contract!! What don’t you understand
His wife and son I doubt it very very much he goes anywhere without his wife’s decision.
A moron? What have you done in your life that even comes close to what Arte had done? Self made billionaire, Vietnam Veteran.
But the entire sports world would have crucified them for it, because he’s Saint Ohtani.
And he could have just been upfront and said he’s not coming back, but of course he needs yet another suitor when he’s about to get half a billion plus.
So not only is taking them down the toilet now, but because he HAD to string them along and give them false hope, they’re now worse for the future as well.
What a teammate. Ask the guys in the bullpen who had to pitch 8 innings by surprise what they think, all because he needs to be a unicorn stats padder.
And he could have just been upfront and said he’s not coming back,
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That’s not on him; that’s on Moreno & the FO. As I said at the ’22 deadline, you need to make your pitch, and if it is not enough, you need to make the trade. This is the same in real life. The owner/GM need to be able to make these calculations.
Its on Moreno. Minassian had a trade lined up and Moreno nixed it because Trout was on the IL at the time and the Angels would have no draw in the lineup to bring fans to the ballpark.
What a horrible take. Get help bro.
Who? I wrote what has been reported in many publications including the LA Times, Ken Rosenthal in the Athletic, and the OC Register.
Well if that is the case and I don’t doubt that it is, it fell flat on it face. His injury will cost him a few million, and the longer he waits to have surgery the longer he pushes out his rehab on a second TJ. Teams may not want to gamble on his ability to pitch effectively once back from rehab. Pitching would be pushed out to 2025.
The Angels probably had an indication something was up and any trade would have included some sort of physical from the acquiring team which would have found this earlier. Given that it’s unlikely they could have swung a trade.
Physicals don’t show injuries that haven’t happened yet.
actually, they do, sometimes; see Brady Aiken
The prospect return they would have gotten for him is much less than you think.
Hindsight! If they were firmly holding a wildcard spot because of the moves, would you feel the same?
The Angels have allowed him to recover before, the Angels will allow him to recover again, and this greatly enhances the chances he will resign with the team. There is a built in trust.
Ohtani was all about winning, his priorities may have changed.
Prediction, he’ll sign a deal for well over 400 million dollars. Maybe even closer to a half billion.
Halo – Assuming Ohtani needs TJS again, do you think there might be a one year recovery deal that’s agreed upon assuming he won’t pitch next year? Or maybe the big expected contract that pays maybe $10m in 2024 for not pitching and then ramps up afterwards based on innings pitched. I think 2024 has to carved out in some way no matter what if he doesn’t pitch.
Maybe he’ll sign with the Angels, but if he does, I hope they don’t run him into the ground like they did this year. So what, he wants to play every day, it was obvious 3 weeks ago he was dragging and needed a day off. Boo on Manager and Trainer.
No. But there are so many different scenarios. One that includes going to right field and resting that arm for a year.
It all depends on the severity of the tear. Does anyone know the severity of the tear?
It hasn’t been reported yet, but it’s a tear. I can see first base as an option also.
Ohtani played outfield in Japan and he’s just too talented to play first.
This is going to be a Schanuel thing again. I think he’s going to be a nice little player. Small sample size, he’s last on the team in hard hit pct, launch angle and exit velocity. But he knows the strike zone and is able to put the bat on the ball. He’s going to be a plus player, I hope fans, and mostly the Angels brain trust are not expecting him to be something other than what he is.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
Ohtani will beat Judge’s deal by a large amount even just as a hitter.
Wondering if Nolan could slide to third, only a matter of time before Rendon gets hurt again. He was projected as a corner infielder. But definitely have been impressed with him he gets on base, and probably broke a record for being called up after a month of being drafted
A second TJ on his throwing arm isn’t a good outlook for him as a pitcher. No one will pay $500M for a DH.
Supposedly he doesn’t need one, probably going with stem cells, and sitting out a year from pitching. It’s a partial tear, I do understand that it will eventually lead to one at some point
How is the last 5 trades for a superstar looking at betts, machado, arrenado, goldy, lindor. Leaving soto out because it’s still up in the air. They all had big packages that didn’t pan out
Rex, you need to back that statement up with some facts because to me its total BS.
Each of those has produced more in value overall than their cost to the team.
Soto is not up in the air either. He has produced 5.6 WAR for the Padres which is far more than the prospects given up have produced and has been worth $51.8 million or more than double what that Padres have paid him.
I was saying Soto was up in the air, because gore is still young enough to pan out. I was talking about the other trades because most of them were cut. I believe verdugo was the big piece for the Red Sox, he’s not terrible but he’s not betts. Just saying if you trade a star for 5 prospects doesn’t always pan out, and you most likely won’t be able to resign him
Who besides you says the Nats won’t be able to re-sign Soto? If they offer him the most money you really think he takes less from someone else?
Angels need to fire every coach that breathes oxygen and scrap every FA. Keep what you must and Arte please for the love of Gawd, sell the team.
Agree the coaches need to go, and it’s Perry’s last year, don’t agree with the free agents wouldn’t hurt to keep them for depth, Escobar and loup is definitely expendable the rest is debatable
Don’t listen to BaseballisLife. Remember this thread?
mlbtraderumors.com/2022/10/braves-extend-spencer-s…
He’s also Pads Fans commenting from a burner.
Seismic brah, seismic
Yes because all those prospects the Tigers and White Sox got, in their fire sales turned them into juggernauts. The Rangers had a fire sale, it’s their FA signings that have made them good. But yeah, trading Ohtani for 2 or 3 prospects might have made the Angels good in about 5 years
Couldn’t do much worse than a 2nd/3rd round sandwich pick. That is where this is headed right now.
Agree with that. It was too late a couple years ago, probably when they signed Rendon to “win for Shohei and Mike now”. They gave the Os 6 of their 10 best pitching prospects for Dylan Bundy and Jose iglesias 3 years ago (including the AL ERA leader). It’s been an endless series of mediocre FA pitcher signings. They haven’t been over .500 any year since they signed Shohei. How did they continue to believe they were close?
Now they won’t be good for 10.
What about all the prospects the Astros and Cubs got in their fire sales? Nothing is a sure thing, but it beats where they will be when he walks for a draft pick.
Money buys proven players. Ohtani brought Moreno $35 million in sponsorships this season, mostly international, and a huge portion of fans come just to see him play.
If he walked away with no recompense for the Angels, they made enough money from him being an Angel this season that they can pay for a proven major league player, not question marks that prospects always are.
Buyer beware. This man is an awesome talent, a unicorn, but a second torn UCL means any team signing him is buying a DH, and likely only a DH. How much is that worth? This is bad news for the Angels, or is it also good news, increasing their chances of signing him? How much will another team pay with the risk around him?
Maybe the Twinkies? Injured no problem. “Here’s $50 million for 1 year kid” Lolololololol!!!
Even before his latest injury, I didn’t think the numbers for Ohtani’s signature would be as high as some people think. The bidding would get too high and the owners would start to back off. He’ll still get a boatload of money, but I think it will not be out of the stratosphere.
Good thing Ohtani did not get traded because whatever package he would have been dealt for at the deadline would have been geared towards Ohtani being a two-way player. So that hypothetical team would have been screwed over in a way, once this injury became manifest. They would have traded for an Ace and a DH, but left with just an injured DH only. Good on Angels for not trading him.
I’m not sure how not trading him for two top-50 picks is good for the Angels.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
He’s going to get paid. This injury won’t change that.
It’s a partial tear, but I agree if you get three you can’t recover or at least it hasn’t happened yet. He can play the field or be a opener. Won’t pitch for at least a year and a half. He’s getting 50 million a year regardless
He’s a good pitcher, but even better hitter? Didn’t Babe Ruth stop pitching?
“Yu heard it from here lst”
It’s more like Nooooooohtani!
Superman has met his kryptonite
Oooh man! What a shame, my man pushed it just a little too far.
It all happened after his complete game 1 hitter against the tigers, and two home runs in the double header.
Yeah definitely looks like Shohei Ohtani was showing off again.
He was likely always hurt.
Do we really need to equate an injury as payback for the bombing of Pearl Harbor?
@lloyd_christmas- No I’m sorry. I was talking about that bag up there in Seattle.
Remember the Arizona!
Off-topic, but while I think Hawaii is overrated as a tourist destination, Pearl Harbor is a must-see.
Many people saw this coming w the workload while every one else was taking the days off for every tweak. Had the Angels signed him to an extension no way would he have had a workload. Now they’re blaming him and saying he didn’t say anything. Angels suck.
Newsflash: The Halos were never ever signing him to an extension anyway, so put that to rest.
Correct. They get $1M per home start. They pushed the envelope for roughly $6M.
He’s gonna get money,but IMO he will not pitch next year either. Honestly? I’d have him DH and close games.
I want him to play first so when people say he’s only a dh why pay him so much, the ignorant trolls will realize he can’t pitch, play three positions at the same time. He was a first baseman/ outfielder in Japan and if you watched him field a ball as a pitcher you can tell he has no problems in the field as well
Actually, what’s ignorant is the people who WORSHIP him because he pitches and hits. When if you simplify the equation: He plays pitcher on defense and he hits on offense. Just like a player plays shortstop on defense and hits on offense. And a shortstop at the major league level has to work at his position just as hard… if not even harder than a pitcher does at pitching. So is Ohtani REALLY that special? He plays offense and defense. Just like the other 99 percent of the players in the league. In fact, one could argue playing the field takes a much greater athlete than a pitcher. You’d never catch Bartolo Colon playing SS at the major league level. But guaranteed most of the SS in the league can throw 90 plus mph. So even though a pitcher that can hit is rare… is it REALLY as special as the media makes it out to be?
It’s hard to hit and somehow get out to the bullpen to warm up, which is why the scheduled rotation turns are easier to incorporate. And as a starter he’s been allowed to pitch as much as he’s able, but that workload might be over. Last time his elbow blew up he missed a year for recovery and then needed another year to regain his control, so he’s unlikely to be outstanding on the mound until 2025.
I imagine in the future he’ll get as many AB as possible while his pitching could be dialed back to something less than a full rotation spot. A team with 3-4 other good starters makes the most sense so that he can be rested more aggressively (if that makes sense.) The bullpen makes little sense, but maybe read up on Ted Lyons from the early 40s White Sox.
Yes, he is. His impact as a pitcher is so much higher than the impact a 3b or SS has on runs throughout the year, it’s not even close. I get it the love fest can be annoying, but it’s a huge deal.
Can you name someone that is in contention for a Cy Young and mvp every year? Bringing up colon as a shortstop lol. I would pay to see that. Your argument is irrelevant is judge hitting/pitching at a high level. People worship him because it hasn’t been done since babe Ruth.
I agree. This isn’t someone that pitches a few innings out of the BP while being a full-time DH. This is one of the best pitchers in BB.
@ crise
So being the only pitcher that requires a 6 man rotation is not enough. He needs to be in a 7 man rotation is your solution?
No, 5.5 or six should do it. But he won’t eat up a bullpen spot and he hits better than Greinke, so he’s still useful, a net positive on the roster. 🙂
Yes it is special. Its been over 100 years since anyone has done it at a high level. Ohtani is a unicorn. The best player in baseball.
.327 ERA and pitching 5-6 innings is not one of the elite pitchers. He is a good pitcher, but an Elite???
No he is not the best player in baseball. If Judge had not injured himself playing defense something Ohtani does not do, he would be ahead of Ohtani again as he was last year. MLB just over the last few years have had DH able to go into HOF because they did not recognize DH as a position. Most teams have their players play DH to give them a rest.
Closing games still counts as pitching.
Elite. Will be 2 time MVP at the end of this season. It should be his third. If Judge hit 59 HR last season it would be. Best overall player in baseball and its not close.
Lmao. If Ma had balls she’d be Pa.
Ohtani does something no other player in baseball is capable of. Let me repeat that. No one else is CAPABLE of doing what he is doing.
He has been BOTH a top ten pitcher and top 5 hitter for 3 straight seasons.
Ohtani is without question the best player in baseball today.
Yes, definitely elite. Over the last three years, he’s 5th in ERA, 11th in WHIP, 3rd in K/9, 5th in ERA+, 3rd in ERA-, 9th in xFIP, 9th in SIERA, 3rd in opponents’ Avg – in all of baseball. By every measure, he’s an elite MLB SP.
If Ohtani played OF instead of pitched, he’d probably win a gold glove. I don’t get why some can’t he’s just that kind of freak talent.
Newsflash: considering Ohtani is the toughest player in the league to manage because of his uniqueness and how you have to manage around his workload he was always likely to stay in Anaheim since he essentially manages himself and it’s a giant headache.
That’s what I get for buying my crystal balls at Big Lots.
Better than getting cussed out by Tommy Lasorda
Hahahaha!
130.2 innings is almost the exact same workload he had in 2021 and had him on pace for practically the same amount of innings as last season. The Angels aren’t directly to blame for this one.
This will have some effect on his free agency however because any team that signs him to a decade long (or longer) contract has to realize he will not pitch all the way through the duration of the deal.
Ohtani has a interpreter, also has a lot say when it comes to his workload. It’s one of the reasons why he signed with the angels.
Noooooooooo $600 mill for U!
Really, any team signing him has to figure he’ll only be a DH, and then maybe a DH and a bad pitcher. He could be better, but they won’t know. Second TJS’s are less successful.
Maybe someone signs a split contract. 10/300 guaranteed with another 20 million a year based on starts? Yet, who will take that risk until he’s shown he’s healthy and productive.
As I noted above, this could turn out as good news for the Angels in that it could open the door for him to stay.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
Still gets more then Judge just as a hitter.
He might just be a DH and a compromised pitcher, or a pitcher at all.
Just saw a report that he and his reps declined imaging 8/3 after another early exit, straight from Perry’s mouth.
Good for him. If I’m him I’m not getting fired because this douchebag tries to make decisions for the team.
Of course Otani’s elbow gave out; he’s been carrying the Los Angeles Angels all season.
Trout was carrying the Angels a lot longer
“Mike Trout will go back on the IL” – Perry Minasian.
Yup. It already happened, in fact.
Wow that’s to bad I like watching him and trout play
Oh sweet Mother Mary this is the worst day in the history of the world
“Such a lonely day…”
So, I am totally confused why he came back to play the second game of the double header. Shouldn’t he be having this checked out further? I mean, he could cause even more damage by playing/swinging. If he wants to keep his health and keep pitching, he needs to get surgery asap.
Shouldn’t have any effect swinging the bat.
Bryce Harper played most of ‘22 with a torn UCL – not in the field obviously.
He batted with tommy John surgery his last time, he waited towards the end of season, and came back as a hitter without missing much time, the next season. He’s definitely going to get it now, and be shut down going into his free agency year, he could always come back as a reliever towards the end of next year.
2nd tommy johns tend to take a longer recovery time. He won’t be back next year and will likely miss part of the next.
What logic is this? When he missed a whole year of pitching for his first TJ surgery, he still hit.
A torn UCL? That”s TJS territory, isn’t it? I wonder how this injury will affect his value on the open market.
A “tear in the UCL”, not a “torn UCL”. It’s only partial.
It’s different, but it ain’t good. Even if he DH’s only, that’s going to put more strain on his UCL. Tough call as to what he should do.
Havent lugo and tanaka pitched w partial UCL tears for years? As a hitter I’d have to think it could be managed if not a full tear.
True, but when you’re potentially spending $500MM+ on a guy even a partial tear is a pretty significant concern, particularly since he’s already had TJS before.
Well that’s the 500 million dollar question now, avenger!
They seriously held on to this guy at the trade deadline. This is the most Angels series of events imaginable.
Still one of the best hitters in the world
Still one of the best hurt pitchers in the world
Your just mad he doesn’t like the Yankees.
@Rexhudler86- not mad that he doesn’t like the Yankees at all, but you could definitely sign and keep him for $600 mill though. The Twinkies sign injured players too, so they will definitely have interest also.
It’s personal for Yankee fans, injured stars in pinstripes is like talking to a veteran about nam. You just shouldn’t do it.
@KP23- True dat!
A career .272 BA and strikes out a lot. How much is that worth?
Wow… everything about this is just messed up… UCL Tear pitching in meaningless games… He probably just lost $300 million today with that diagnosis… At least… That’s nuts.
@ignasis- Doubt it, the Angels could offer Ohtani a qualifying offer though, it might be smart for him to take it, then hit free agency in 2025 instead. The Twinkies might offer $50 million for next year to Ohtani, since they love signing injured players. Basically a failed physical for them would be A-Ok.
If he wanted a one year deal even only as a hitter it would be for much more then 19m.
At this point, only the Rangers & Mets will have interest.
And Rays (discount) and Dodgers (don’t mind injury guys) and every other team.
Yeah, I’m sure no other team will be interested in one of the best hitters in baseball.
@craigin- maybe the Rangers, but the Mutts are already out on Ohtani according to Mr. Stevie Cohen.
Cohen never said he was out on anyone. The ONLY thing he said is he couldn’t promise Mr Sticky Stuff Suspension that he would go all in on free agents.
If you believe Cohen isn’t going to spend on FA this offseason I have some ocean front property in Arizona I’d like to sell you.
Really sad news. I follow a different AL West team but still enjoy watching Ohtani because of indisputable greatness. Will be cheering for him & his recovery wherever he goes. Feels like baseball fans as a whole lost on this one.
The Oakland/Las Vegas Athletics? Just the way you said that. I guess. Lolololololol!!! Don’t mind me!
So he’s gonna lose half his value .. DH only ain’t getting $300mill
He can play the field, not sure if you can play first, and pitch at the same time
I expect him to get 300m still. Lots of stupid teams, extremely marketable, likely to pitch again. If Mets Padres haven’t learned their lesson he will blow past 300.
Well he is has the possibility to pitch again and waaaaay more marketable than Aaron Judge getting $40mil a year.
Exactly if you have to wait two years for him to pitch, he’s still getting more than judge. I agree he might have to slow it down, because three tommy johns is the death kneel. He can be a reliever for a year and be a starter in the playoffs. Play in the field he has many options. Still the best hitter in baseball
Worst case scenario, he becomes a right fielder. Probably the best RF in the game.
He’d go 50-50 if he wanted.
He’s not a better player then Acuna without pitching.
Hmm, not so sure, may be close, especially if he can focus FT on hitting. I see him moving to 1b like Harper did as more feasible than the OF.
Not much. theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
Noticed you posted that same article every time someone said Ohtani was not going to get paid now. I don’t think Rosenthal is right about $500 million, but I think $400 million is not out of reach if he becomes a position player.
Like many in the industry, I believe that Ohtani will continue to DH like he did after his first TJ until he is ready to play RF. That should come sometime near the end of 2024. I don’t think he will pitch again until 2025 and he won’t continue to pitch for very long after that. He is a more valuable as a hitter that can play every day than a pitcher that is injured and has to have his innings limited.
One year contract and test the market healthy next year?
No
10, 12, 15? year deal with opt=outs and performance bonuses.
I’m sure teams are going to write blank checks for a guy who ends this season with a tear in his elbow…
He’s the best hitter, and a very profitable one because he has the Japanese market, and media showing up. If you think he’s going to get a one year deal. You should quit watching baseball
@Rexhudler86- Yes, because every team is lining up to sign a injured player for a $600 million dollar contract, or close to it? That makes a whole lotta sense, you define dumb. Smh.
He’s only injured for pitching. He doesn’t have to pitch to be worth 40 million a year. And of course after winning two MVPs as an outfielder, he could always go back to pitching.
The reason people are talking about him being a 600m dollar player is because he is a hitter and a pitcher, if you insert question marks about half of his game you seriously think anyone is paying a record contract to him to be a straight up hitter? Get lost with the condescending nonsense!
Yes they will, because of his marketability. Teams are businesses first, second, and always.
Yes. He’s worth more than Judge. He may not shatter the record, but I fully expect him to break it.
Halo11Fan
He’s only injured for pitching.
=========================
You don’t know that. The history of an SP/DH having TJS is exactly -0-. Harper is playing, but in his case, you aren’t concerned too much with any permanent damage to his arm.
Captain-judge
Muted
Pretty much to. He DH’d when he needed Tommy John surgery and he DHd yesterday.
I don’t Know if the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but as much as someone knows anything related to baseball, I know this.
@filihok- What’s your problem with me? Please Lmk.
How much does verlander and mad max make a year for putting up the same numbers in only one category also in the 40’s both with tommy John injuries , your argument is dumb just give it up
It’s only one so far, and it’s a tear. Will it surprise me if it comes out it’s tore definitely not. the angels doctors are vague he’s getting a second opinion
@rex
Its not that he will only get one year offers. Its that he may only want a one year (or one and a player option) so he can go to market healthy.
The Killing of the Unicorn: Shohei Ohtani, 2018-2023 by Peter Bogdanovich.
“Ain’t getting 300 mill”..I think he might still get 300 million+ if he can hit during recovery. You have to remember he’s an internationally known marketing superstar, as well as a great hitter. He’s not exactly your mom and pop’s DH.
@mlb fan- I would definitely sign him for $90 million(not $900 million) for 2 years in good faith, so $40 million in 2024 to hit, and $50 million in 2025 to hit and pitch. Seem fair? Lmk
Maybe he should just be a DH and an opener who pitches like 50-60 pitches every 5th day to keep him healthy?
I think someone will put him at first, and maybe close late next year, he probably could start late next year, but likely his stuff would be flat without much movement it takes about two years.
You know who happens to need a 1B option? The Angels. Perhaps he takes a 1 year deal with them out of familiarity or because he is comfortable there and they know what he can do with the bat. Also, I’m no fan of the Angels but they likely will still pay heavily for him because Arte knows what he brings in money wise. It may cost him some money or years on a contract, but lots of teams have had success with pitchers coming back from Tommy John surgery and he also can play first base so other teams could also be interested. If Bryce Harper with no experience at 1st base can be a viable option, Ohtani with some experience there shouldn’t have any problem. Even injured and bat only Ohtani is still the best hitter on the free agent market.
The rally monkeys and thunder sticks from 2002 sealed my dislike of the angels but this is horrible news for any baseball fan. Get well Ohtani, you are a joy to behold!
Most overrated player ever. A month before a $400 million payday he tears his UCL
People get so deluded by stats
A month? Do you really think he was just going to rush right out there and take the first offer? Also, if you are going to troll, you need to go back to troll school.
He’s not a troll. He’s just a doofus.
A month before the season ends and he’s lined up for a big contract
God almost everyone is unintelligent
This latest low IQ person thinks I mean literally in a month he’ll have a contract
And it’s another person who thinks he’s being enlightening or imparting deeper knowledge
Incredible the hordes and hordes of low IQ people with no idea what’s going on
Yet they all think they posessss great insight and knowledge. Crazy to encounter so many of them
“Incredible the hordes and hordes of low IQ people with no idea what’s going on” and for anyone who watched the Republican debate last night, this will be no surprise.
It’s like science and stuff. They’re just trying to tell us what to do. We already know what’s right.
Yeah ok. Keep trying to plug the most stats into a team and see if it wins
Logic would dictate it does win, but most jof the time doesn’t
There are deeper universal laws at work. Laws of hierarchy, universal order, harmony, balance. A deeper dharma, deeper math
Phillies should win with Harper according to the logic of stats people, but they don’t
Why did the Nationals win the year after Harper left? They should have been worse according to stats people
Padres and Mets figured they’d plug the most stats into a team. It doesn’t work that way
The first $500M+ MLB contact just went up in flames! It’s such a shame that he tore his UCL again. If it requires surgery, it would be his 2nd TJS since joining the Angels and he would not be able to pitch at all next season, not to mention how well he’d be able to rebound from a 2nd TJS procedure in 2025.
No team is going to sign him for 10+ years and to a record setting ACV as a DH. They’ll still pay a lot for the bat ($30M+ per year) but his pitching compensation will most likely be highly incentive-based such as # of appearances (starts) and # of innings pitched, etc. Maybe he could still reach $50M+ in some years under this type of contract, but it certainly won’t just be handed to him anymore. I feel badly for the guy.
No probably the lst $600 million dollar contract went up in flames, with 2 or 3 opt outs of course! The Twinkies GM phone is blinking! “We’ll give you $50 million for 2024, no worries kid”
Why does he need to be a DH?
The absolute downside is perhaps the best RF is baseball. A team may have to wait a year to get there, but that’s the downside.
Halo11Fan
Why does he need to be a DH?
The absolute downside is perhaps the best RF is baseball.
==============================
You need to calm down. He has virtually NO experience playing the outfield. Assuming that we are to believe B-R, he has played 6 games in RF since 2013.
I assume his hitting will only suffer some minor downgrade, but you have no way of knowing if he can learn to play the outfield.
I am calm. You don’t think he can play RF?
He’s only DHing because he pitches.. He’s played over 70 games in the outfield during his professional career. I have little doubt he’s as capable in the outfield as Yount or Biggio when they made the switch.
He has 64 games in NPB and 7 in the majors. That more than “virtually NO experience”.
You feel sorry for him Dorothy,?? He is still going to make umpteen millions playing a children’s game. If you want to feel sorry for someone, perhaps maybe Domingo German or Aaron Boone ?
Arte has legitimately killed the careers of two of the greatest players to ever step foot on the diamond.
“Legitimately killed the careers”..Moreno seems like a bad businessman, constantly making the same mistakes over and over. I’m thinking he must be crooked or connected to gain his billions, because he doesn’t seem too bright in my honest opinion.
“I’m thinking he must be crooked or connected to gain his billions, because he doesn’t seem too bright in my honest opinion.”
He’s bright alright…..he just prioritizes marketing over building a winning organization. He skimps everywhere except on flashy names…. and his net worth has skyrocketed. They play in what can be argued as the epicenter of the baseball world…..fans here love the game and they keep supporting a big market team that hasn’t won a playoff game since 2009,
Crooked? Well yep. He is charged with bribing people to get a stupidly Moren0-friendly deal with the city of Anaheim. That deal got cancelled after the bribery was found out.
He is from Arizona and has absolutely no sense of responsibility to the fans in Anaheim.
Get real, there has been great players, Ted Williams most likely would have set marks that no one would reach, such as his .400 Average, if he didn’t do his patriotic service to his nation and fight in WWII and the Korean War. Willie Mays who hit 660 home runs would have hit close to 800 had he not played at Candlestick park where fly balls go to die. Willie in my opinion is the best player ever to play.
Oh My God !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Welp. There goes his Value as a Free Agent. And Value to th Team signing him, Starting Next Year. Including the Angels.
Should Have Traded Him !!!! Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb Dumb.
Yeah, how stupid for the Angels not to throw in the towel on the season and trade their best player when they were a couple games back of the Wild Card!
Let’s see they are 10 back in the WC now which counts not back in June.
Anthony,
I should not be beating you guys to the punch with these posts. Posted this on the Mancini article because there was nothing on this site at that time.
wow four minutes buddy. do you want a medal?
$50 says Anthony was watching a different game!
@outinleftfield aka Pads Fans aka Baseballislife aka websoulsurfer Wow, you want a cookie or something?
You want some milk with that?
@pohle- I hope that medal isn’t in that bag up there in Seattle?
What’s funny is Nevin after game 1 said “we saw something in the data that showed his pitch angles were off after the 1st inning” or something to that effect. But they still let him take the mound for the 2nd inning and Ohtani was the one who had to take himself out! It’s like O’Hoppe’s injury. Anyone could see he was struggling but the Angels say “he didn’t say anything. Not our fault.”
They already skipped him once in the rotation… probably knew he was somewhat injured already. So they let him pitch, further injure himself, and then ol’ Arte can re-enter the sweepstakes in the offseason and resign his injured unicorn
They took him out because they didn’t want him to pitch against a top rated team. Pad stats agains the Reds were their thoughts most likely.
Interesting to think of what this could mean for the Angels attempting to re-sign him. What kind of contracts would we even be talking? A two year deal? He’s the best hitter probably. He could probably get 8 years as a hitter with two way potential even if he’s hurt. Who knows?
I still think he gets a long term deal but at a rate that reflects the risk with an opt out after the second year so he can do better if he shows he can come back strong on the mound.
No one will give him that type of opt-out. If his arm is wrecked after the 2nd TJS, a team takes all the downside. If he is pitching well after the 2nd year, the team gets none of the upside.
But the contract in the first place would be at a lesser rate to reflect the current status.
Probably take a 1-2 year pillow contract and work his way back. Especially since at the very least no pitching this season. Good thing is could open it to a lot of teams on a short contract for a chance at a championship
You mean like the championship the Angels got with him right?
Will his free agent cost go down? Not happy about this, just asking
He’s still going to be the highest paid player, he can play first, and outfield. Most likely not outfield next year, but don’t see why he can’t play first, and be a reliever at the end of next year for a playoff push. It’s does change things a little bit he might get eased back into the rotation in a couple years. For the people blaming the angels he has complete say over his workload and career.
Do you know how bad the tear is? I wouldn’t rule out outfield next year.
I don’t know but they said partial tear, and he was looking into the internal brace procedure, something new that Brock purdy did. Also Tanaka pitched with a partial tear for years, but is out of league now, so bad example but I wouldn’t rule out coming back as a reliever
There is tremendous stress on relievers. Relievers just don’t get up and pitch, they prepare.
How’s he going to prepare?
Should have specified opener or closer
Still a closer typically starts to get ready in the seventh. Nothing wrong with an opener, from time to time, but id still rather have him concentrate on hitting.
@Pete zahut- certainly sir. He should sign a 1 year contract, then hit free agency and sign for $550-600 million in 2025. Probably with the Mutts, Friars, or the Dods.
Dang. Yankees 2024 season ended before it even started.
I don’t know about that, but I do know Ohtani wasn’t or isn’t coming to the Yankees, he never was.
Didn’t walker Buehler have 2 Tommy john surgeries?
This was always the way it was going to go down
This may actually work in the Angel’s favor. Most thought there was no chance he would return as a FA, but now he may be of more value to Moreno in terms of international sponsorships and ticket sales that he would be to another team as a DH.
There goes at least $100 million off his next contract.
@Buzz-Newsflash: he ain’t even getting that, Lmaooo! He probably gotta take the qualifying offer from the Halo’s, or sign a 1 year contract contract with the Twinkies, since they pass failed physical’s. No problem.
Dang. Anyone else think maybe he tries closing after coming back?
That actually may not be a bad idea for some team out there, for Ohtani. Then he would likely start in 2025.
No. Because he can’t be a full time hitter and a closer. Closers start getting ready to pitch in the 7th inning typically. Can’t be on the bench ready to hit and in the bullpen getting ready to pitch at the same time.
Sure he can. They may just need to be fluid about what innings he is deployed. He did it during the WBC!
No he wasn’t used that way in the WBC. He was removed from hitting each game after his third at bat and went to the pen to get ready to pitch the 9th. He never batted past the 6th inning.
He was not a full time hitter in the WBC and he couldn’t be one in MLB either.
The contract and Angels comments miss the mark, imho. The sport’s most well known and marketable star may be done as a two-way player. This is brutal on a bigger picture level than whatever his hypothetical next contract would have been. This has been the sport’s biggest potential draw for new casual fans.
This will have 0 impact on his free agency.
You’re not signing him just for 2024. You’re signing him for 8+ years
What is his pitching worth? 25-30 million a season? He’s only missing one year. Assuming he needs TJ surgery.
The fear that he’ll never return to form isn’t as big of a deal with him because even if he doesn’t, you’re still getting him as a hitter. It’s not the same risk as signing a normal pitcher
Ohtani has a history of arm problems and is unlikely to have a long career. Smart teams won’t offer him more than four or five years.
I guess you can count on most of baseball as not being smart teams because 20 teams were expected to be in on him prior to this injury. I doubt fewer will make contact his agent with a much longer deal.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
You’re an idiot if you think this doesn’t impact his FA.
Yeah let’s give 900 million to the guy with a torn UCL just to be a hitter lol
@Milwaukee-2208- Not $900 million, but maybe $90 million for 2 years, in good faith! Lmao!
I’m not sure if he was ever going to get 900 million, unless Cohen did it. Wouldn’t surprise me if someone offered 550- 600 million to outbid the angels. Now it’s probably 500
Two TJS’s wouldn’t be insignificant. It will absolutely lower his value beyond the amount of time he actually misses. Maybe not a ton, but still.
hate to see a injury like that and the Angels made a mistake by not trading him before the injury I would put the Yankees,Dodgers in a bidding war for him now it will be interesting to see what happens the Angels are just screwed gave up the few good prospects they had and they lose ground in the playoff race now there star is injured and will probably still lose him in FA and lost out on getting a huge return in top prospects
They still make commas and periods, you know.
A perspective from four decades of paying attention to varying degrees:
It was partly inevitable. He’s a hard thrower who puts great stress on his arm. Using a new slider/sweeper that he could not fully control may have increased the problem.
He was only able to sustain double duty for three years, but would he have been injured again if he were solely a pitcher? Perhaps, maybe even probably. Arms aren’t made to throw like this. The signs were there from early in the season. It appears that the injury manifested after April. First, bad pitches for home runs. Then, hand and fingernail issues that may have been a sign of stress and weakness. Finally, fatigue and altered arm sensation as the degeneration became acute.
However, physical fatigue, including cramps, seems to indicate a holistic problem that’s connected to his constant playing time. He had none of this in the previous year, so the prolonged stress of double duty only showed itself this summer. The team pushed him too much for insufficient reasons. He needed more days off, especially when he was weakening. (And why was he on the mound during a rainstorm in the cold months?) Why was he allowed to finish his shutout when the wise course was to let him pitch 7 at most? Why did they keep him in the rotation rather than pulling him until they knew what was going on? You do not listen to the player who wants to play; you follow the signs. On a good, well-run team, this would have been wisely managed.
A well-run team like who?
The Rays who famously have no injured pitchers ever?
Or the equally known for pitcher health Dodgers?
Maybe the Braves who succeed in keeping every pitcher healthy?
Or the Guardians?
Or, do,pitchers just get injured?
Where do people come up with this BS?
Ugh. This is brutal for the Angels, Trout back on the IL and Ohtani potentially needing Tommy John surgery.
No it’s karma actually. This is what happens when you’re more focused on promoting superstars and selling tickets and jerseys than you are getting wins and contributing to a competitive team.
Angels could have traded Ohtani and probably trout a few years ago and gotten back a HAUL. Team would have been competitive and right in the thick of it for years to come. Instead, they traded every good prospect they had in their system, for a rental starter and a bunch of non impact bats…just to make ohtani think they’re trying so he stays.
Ohtani wont win you a championship himself and the Angels owner really doesn’t care about the bigger picture.
“No it’s karma actually”
LOL. No.
It’s the punishment of Nanna because Ohtani rejected the godess Ishtar’s advances.
I believe if you say I am an angels fan also means I like getting getting nut punched.
If I read correctly this is his second Tommy John surgery in a few years, so big red flag on him as a pitcher!
If I am a GM I would be looking at converting him as a closer once he is healed from the injury and never let him start again.
I know he is a solid to great starter but the injury risk is higher with him, so the question is do sign him to that massive contract with knowing he might be strictly a DH, and I say no.
A genuine shame. Truly fascinating watching this man reinvent baseball. Not trading Ohtani will haunt the Angels for a decade – massive mistake.
In hindsight, sure, it was a mistake. But if they’d have traded him we’d be forever talking about the time they failed to try to compete for a playoff spot when they had the chance with Trout and Ohtani.
This “hindsight” idea is flawed. Plenty of people were posting on this site, myself included, well before the trade deadline on the urgency of trading Ohtani. Plenty in the mainstream media, too. It’s not hindsight. The Angels lacked the vision & know-how to do what was best for their franchise.
“Hindsight” is letting the Angels off-the-hook. Massive mistake not trading Ohtani – massive.
I think the return for a half season of Ohtani would have been less than satisfying and would have risked alienating a lot of fans. Although it was also compounded by the prospect costs for the other additions that went alongside the decision to keep him.
Either way they went at the deadline, the Angels probably weren’t going to have this sort of competitive chance again for a while. They’re just facing a slightly steeper path now.
I can appreciate that outlook, Armaments, I just think not trading Ohtani is, as Steve Phillips said, unforgivable “malpractice.” I’m shocked, too, to be quoting Steve Phillips, but “malpractice” is an accurate analysis of the Angels’ decision making in relation to Ohtani.
I’m pretty sure teams will still pay big dollars for his service, even if they have to wait a year or so for the injury to be healed. He’s still an explosive player offensively and still in his prime. Maybe his total dollar amount takes a hit but probably not significantly.
By trying to pitch through an injury, Ohtani may have just cost himself $100m or more…
This happened when he signed Haren’s request for an autographed jersey.
Angels front office just screwed themselves for the next decade. Ohtani should have been dumped at the deadline for a haul. Trout is damaged goods at this point. Nobody wants to take on that contract for him to sit on the IL 70% of the year. Whoever signs Ohtani will immediately regret it. This dudes best years are behind him and won’t be able to keep himself healthy over the long run. It just won’t happen. He needs to stop pitching and just be a hitter. That’s where he makes the most impact
I feel bad, but no one in baseball needed that contract.
Well, that changes some of his contract value. Sad.
I said numerous times being a two way player was not sustainable….. Shohei needs to pick 1B/Outfield/DH and forget pitching. He had probably 1 to 2 years left doing both before it caught up to him, it just happened earlier.
I’m curious to hear about your study or sport medicine, physiology, whatever
I’d also like to know what it’s like to work with an athlete like Ohtain. You have worked with him right? You’re not just com0letely making stiff up, right?
Chill. You don’t have to legitimize every comment you disagree with by offerring a reply.
Has nothing to do with Sport medicine/ Physiology…. it has to do with simple wear and tear on the body. You would be fooling yourself if you think it could continue. Personally, I think when he focuses in on just Hitting and playing the field without the pitching, he will be an even better hitter.
It literally has everything to do with sports medicine and physiology.
Wut?
Ok …. I give you Physiology to a certain extent…. because of the function of the human body, but my point is the overextending of parts of the body by the means of overuse, it is more prevalent for some parts to break down. The sports medicine part is bull s***,unless the “medicine” is “artificial”. In that case it can both beneficial and detrimental..
I mean you have no idea what Ohtani’s body can withstand.
You have no idea if hitting made his UCL more likely to tear
Unless you know about sports medicine. Then, you might. Know a little, but you still don’t know any specifics about Ohtani.
This is the final blow for any post-season hopes.
Babe Ruth was the greatest MLB player of ALL time.
He was playing against mailmen and milk carriers
And they weren’t even alcoholics. So unfair.
Dodgers are gonna put a hit out on Moreno for this.
The guy was worth maybe 30-35 million as a hitter and 15-20 million as a pitcher (per year). This thankfully brings his value down to something more realistic and sustainable. Regardless, it takes just 1 team to overpay.
I had a feeling he was going to eventually need TJ, and here we are. He’s still a great offensive player, but there’s no way he’s getting 600MM anymore. This injury just cost him at least 300MM, but it saved some stupid ball club from overpaying for a guy who can’t do both over a long period of time. It’s just too difficult.
Do you sign him based on his bat and incentivize the contract per win? I read the calculated value per year for him is $76 million. Such a risky endeavor to sign him based on the two way status. Any bets on AAV? I’ll bet $46 plus hefty incentives. Dodgers.
I’d say now that he’s having TJ, his AAV just went from 60MM to 30MM. Long-term teams must consider him an offensive player, not a pitcher.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
Angels should have traded him.. looking like one of the worst decision (or lack there of) I’ve seen in baseball history
That loud thump everyone is waking up to is Othani’s agent jumping off the highest cliff. There is no way to justify paying Othani a 10yr/$500 million contract on a 2x UCL in just 5 years and mind you pitching just once per week. So say he needs TJS knocking him out in 2024 pitching you now will have a DH on your hand and to justify that kind of moolah he will have to avg 60HRs/130RBIS for the life of his contract. The other thing is the team interested in signing him may have to put a clause you get X amount of money if you meet innings requirement because otherwise he is out 2024 as a pitching come 2025 he will be on an innings limit so that already is 2 years wasted which brings him to age 32 heading into possibly a full year of hitter/pitcher.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
Will never be the same pitcher. Just look at the ones that have had that surgery velocity way down
You do realize he had one TJ in 2018? He came back just fine.
Not many guys get two TJs (if it comes to that). Not exactly unchartered waters, but teams have right to be a little concerned.
If he plays first would it be possible to use him as a reliever and keep him in the game as a 1B when they bring in a new pitcher? Two way player rules and double switches always confused me a little
Some team will still be stupid enough to sign him to a record breaking, lifetime deal.
Happened at a great time for everyone. His contract was going to be unique, and now even more so. How will they work out his opt out after he’s healthy enough to pitch again ? Will it be the same year, or the next season to see if he’s really healthy enough to pitch in baseball again ? Sure he can D.H. but his other field position is pitcher so how will they judge that risk unless both parties to a contract can both opt out ?
Will somebody pay 5-6-7 hundred million for a D.H only ? Can he learn to play first base as a fall back ? A guy like Cohen could say here’s 70 million a year for 10 years, and I don’t care if you’ll only be a D.H. going forward, because the box office draw will be enough. The Ohtani sweepstakes just got a whole lot more interesting that’s for sure. .
Two torn UCL in 5 years would have to be an owner that is desperate. You can’t justify paying Othani now $50-$60 million as a DH going forward. Now he did play 1B/OF in Japan would he be willing to pick up either of those positions while giving up on Pitching is something he is going to have to decide. Imagine he now has twice had UCL while pitching just once per week and innings max both times close to 135 innings. So if TJS is in the picture you lose him as a pitcher for 2024 & then for 2025 you now will have an innings limit as well so is it justifiable giving him a $400 million dollar contract? AGain, at 29 years old with 2 UCL to his resume does not bode well as he ages nor for the idiotic team that will throw big bucks on him thinking he can still be that unicorn.
It’s going to be fun. He’s in the race to beat Ruth in the U.S, and Oh in Japan. Can he get to 715 or 869 ? P.T Barnum would get him, will Cohen ?
This could be one of the most interesting contracts ever. He can DH, but maybe not in 2024. He can pitch in maybe 2025, but no one knows how effective he will be. He’ll be 29, which is not old, but not ideal for a 10-12 year contract. We don’t know if he can play the outfield, or is he just a DH.
Something that whoever signs him could do:
Pretend next year the Mariners sign him. At some point around June, he can pitch again (a rehab start in Tacoma and DHs later in the day in Seattle would be wild, but doable). The team doesn’t perform, and the Mariners are 10 games out on September 1st.
Just have him play out the season at DH (let him play RF a couple times like he’s wanted to in the past) and save his arm for a season where the games count
You can’t ramp up a pitcher then expect him not to pitch on games that have no meaning to pick it up again when it matters most that is a wild idea. If he is so thick headed of wanting to pitch then make him a closer bottom line only thing would be the rule not sure how that would work because it was adjusted already for him to stay in the game as a hitter when he was starting so not sure on closing how that would affect the rules.
To clarify the hypothetical timeline:
-He ramps up to be back in June/July
-September 1, if his team isn’t in it, shut him down pitching for the year to save his arm. If they are in it then don’t even think about a 6-man rotation to give him “extra rest” so he can start a couple more times
It’s not a coincidence this happened the same night as the republican presidental debate. Seems Japan has begun meddling into the election already
I saw some of that last night. Believe, republicans are better off with the Ohtani distraction. Haley is the only one that looked presidential.
Trout’s in his thirties, Ohtani’s injured and likely gone, farm system is terrible, bad time to be an Angel fan.
Double Whammy by the Angels!
This is awful, but as a fan of a team that was going to bid on him, it’s maybe better for us that he blows his UCL 35 games *before* my team offered him $500-600MM than 35 games *after.*
For the good of the game, I do wish him a full recovery though.
Other interesting note is how much of this would (or wouldn’t) happen if he bat/threw the same. Stand up and swing like Gen Griffey Jr. (or Shohei) finishing a home run with one hand. The hand still on the bat is his throwing arm
I have a theory that Jac Caglialone would be more healthy than Ohtani as a 2-way player because he bats/throws Left Handed
“Throwing pitches in the big leagues will not hurt your arm,” John told the Daily Times, as reported by ESPN. “It’s what you did down the road when you were younger … In essence, the injury itself is a buildup of overuse. And not overuse as an adult, but overuse as a kid.
“What I would like to see these guys do, these surgeons and all, is ask all the guys who have had the surgery: ‘How much did you pitch as a kid and how often, and did you pitch year-round?’ And nowadays, probably 70 to 80 percent of the pitchers today have been pitching 12 months a year since they were seven, eight, or nine years old. And your arm is not made for that.”
Ohtani threw a 160 km/h (99 mph) fastball as an 18-year-old high school pitcher.
Tommy John, spot on with what he said above.
Overuse is overuse. You have so many pitches in that ligament before it goes. MLB pitches still cause overuse issues or there wouldn’t be second TJ surguries for the same pitcher.
There’s goes the Angels chance at the postseason
Maybe the overuse of the Sweeper pitch caused this?
Still a relatively new pitch that sports physicians will need to study on the effect it has on the elbow..
Praying for a speedy recovery.
The sweeper is just a version of a slider. Pitchers have known for years that the slider is one of and likely the worst pitch for your UCL.
The worst thing for your UCL is velocity.
So if we’re going to excuse Ohtani’s win/loss record seeing as “this is not the NBA, and one guy can’t carry a team”…
Then why is Jeter basically given God status/near unanimous election to the HOF for having never won an MVP, or a fraction of Ohtani’s power, but he’s got “intangibles” and “leadership” and gets all the credit for the Yankees’ rings?
I mean, which is it guys? And it also begs the question of if one guy can’t carry you, then what’s the BFD with Ohtani? Do I really care, if he’s on my team, how far the ball clears the wall, or how many he K’s, if he’s not even in the game to pitch, or if every HR counts equally for the same amount of runs?
Just stop.
I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make but Jeter also had 3400 hits to go along with his intangibles. Whether he was on the Yankees during their dynasty or a last place team that never sniffed the playoffs he still has the stats to back up his HOF plaque.
Yanks I think part of the point is that Jeter’s # highly benefited from being on the Yankees. Certainly he doesn’t bat leadoff that late into his career when his speed and OBP was down, certainly he doesn’t get the rope at SS long because he was below average pretty much every year defensively and the team could cover for that, and overall doesn’t get 3400 hits if he’s on any other team. He could have had the same intangibles coming up for the Rays in the mid 90s and wouldn’t have had the same #’s nor would he have any rings. Probably people would talk about how the Rays didn’t build around a good prospect who ended up with a good career like Longoria.
It’s one of those things about baseball. Like how Jim Rice is in the HOF simply because he could hit really well at Fenway. He certainly wouldn’t be in there for his away splits.
So how many hits does he have if he’s on the Rays? What if he could have maybe been more more selfish and only care about his overall stat line since they had nothing else to play for? What if with all that extra rest never playing in the playoffs he could have gotten stronger?
So many what ifs and just one reality of what happened. And his numbers and resume say hall of fame in every instance.
Its not “Nooooooooooo!” it’s “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This sucks so hard for baseball. Not even an Angels fan and I’m pissed.
Very sorry to hear this. Ohtani is so much fun to watch.
I hope he comes back better and stronger.
timing is everything
the madness!
This is going to put a damper on the half billion dollar plus bidding war even if he doesn’t get TJ surgery. We’ll see how much of a damper.
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
I think one of a few things will happen:
2 years/$60M w/ $5M a year in PA incentives and $20M a year in starts/innings incentives if he’s cleared to pitch again or whatever w/ a $10M buyout on a 5 year/$160M club option for just hitting w/ clauses to convert it into like 5 years/$326.5M if he also pitches and a 2 year/$80M player option that the team can decline- something like that.
Worst case scenario for Ohtani: $70M to never play a regulation in season game ever again.
Middling Case Scenario for Ohtani: 4 years/$140M where he doesn’t reach incentives but he triggers a player option that the team does not force a buyout of.
Middle Case Scenario where he’s no longer a pitcher but still a valuable DH: 7 years/$230M
Best case scenario for Ohtani: 7 years/$436.5M
I’ll take the over
But, the idea isn’t unreasonable
theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
If Ohtani were to give up pitching and became a league average defensive corner outfielder or first baseman, what would his contract look like? I’d say he is still in line for 8 years $320 million as a floor. I doubt he gives up pitching as an option prior to signing his contract and a team could pay him upwards of $400 million with the hope he does pitch during part of the contract.
Here is your answer. theathletic.com/4802950/2023/08/24/shohei-ohtani-f…
Game Over, man!! Game Over!
PLAYOFFS?! Don’t talk about—playoffs? You kidding me? Playoffs!?!
– Angels Management
How do you turn possible 600 M contract into 250M
“Shohei Ohtani Diagnosed With Tear In UCL”
The price tag for Cody Bellinger just skyrocketed
Yep. Some team will over pay and regret it.
That can be said about most FAs.
gotta hand it to him, HE DELIVERED for BORAS
Ordinary effort by the baseball Gods. Ohtani deserved better. If my understanding is correct he came out early and did it the hard way. Behaved immaculately and performed way way above what he was getting paid. Deserved max reward. Shame.
The Angels screwed themselves by not trading him for multiple players, hopefully he won’t need Tommy John Surgery
Lol, good luck with your next contract.
Hey what’s going on with Franco from Tampa having sex with a minor underage girl should be kicked out of baseball
Raise the pitching mound and let’s see if it helps with all these arm injuries in my opinion it will because they can use their legs more
Angles fans. this might be a good thing for the Angels’ chances of re-signing Ohtani.
Obviously, Ohtani is not going to cost as much now. Because he is such an international draw he will still cost $36-40 million per season over a 10+ year contract, but it won’t take $600 million to sign him. As just a hitter he is going to get Judge money.
Moreno is more than willing to spend money on hitters long term, just not pitchers. So this keeps them in the running from that standpoint.
Also, if he’s going to go through rehab for TJ surgery, Ohtani might decide that he’s more comfortable doing that in a place where he’s done it before.
“Angles fans. this might be a good thing for the Angels’ chances of re-signing Ohtani.”
The problem is Moreno values marketing over building a competitive organization. Even if Ohtani isn’t a two way player anymore, he is still a bit of a marketing unicorn because of his feats so far and his popularity in Japan. So, Moreno will probably pay way more for him than he is really worth as far as building a winning team..
Coulda woulda shoulda….If “What ifs” were fifths we’d all be drunk.
Arte Moreno couldn’t pull the trigger on an Ohtani trade. With Trout back on the IL, their season is done. With their lackluster farm system, next year isn’t looking promising either. Dark days at the Big A…
Oh, the days of Salmon, Percival, Glaus, Anderson, Erstad, Molina, Eckstein, Spezio, K-Rod, Kennedy…
Ok let’s see when he comes back after surgery if he throws 100 or 99 again let’s see how right these comments who says he will be the same I’ll tell you he will not. Just watch