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Manny on the move?

For real, this time!  Or not.

First off, Buster Olney thinks that Manny could be moved this week.  Maybe for a less-than-perfect package.  The team that keeps coming up is the Giants, but...how?  I can't imagine the Red Sox would be very interested in the Bay Area chapter of the AARP.

I've heard speculation that the Giants rumors persist because the Red Sox want to up the bidding from the Dodgers, but I haven't seen or heard any details about that deal.  I'd imagine it would include either James Loney or Andre Ethier, as one of those guys would end up on the bench if Manny came to L.A.  (And, of course, the Red Sox would want something of quality in return.)

A Cubs source e-mailed that Chicago has offered Matt Murton, Bob Howry, Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal, and that Felix Pie hasn't come up.  That sounds like not quite enough, but if the Red Sox trade Manny, then turn around and sign J.D. Drew and Julio Lugo, the need for impact-quality major-league talent (say, Michael Young) is lessened.  The same source indicates that the Mets and Braves are also interested.

Olney says, "you get the sense that the Red Sox are increasingly comfortable with the idea of moving Ramirez even if they aren't offered a perfect package in return."  If that's true, it seems that the likelihood of a deal getting done is higher than ever.  If Drew is ready to sign with the Red Sox, teams that want a big bat have very few options, and most of them are expensive.  Manny's contract has never looked better, and if the Red Sox aren't asking for the moon, a trade looks very realistic.

By Jeff Sackmann

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Manny will never accept a deal to SF, so don't even consider that an option.

I think he'll be moved this winter tho....

Aren't Veal and Gallagher considered two of the Cubs 2 top pitching prospects? And pretty darn good ones too...

Murton is MLB ready, and he's proven he can hit at this level. The power will come. And Howry could close for Boston.

I'd love to see him in chicago. That deal sounds great for the cubs because as we've seen, they struggle developing young pitchers anyway, especially if rothschild stays on as the pitching coach. But I think that is highly unlikely and I doubt the cubs even offered that and if they did it would involve a large chunk of cash coming from boston with it. I think its a better deal than SF could offer tho. So who knows!

oh and btw...thanks for finally writing something! its been forever!

Someone that follows the dodgers more closely have any insight into what they have to offer?

One note about the offers:

It is feasible that whatever the Red Sox get in exchange for Manny they will likely turn and flip those prospects for another high impact bat, much like they did with the Renteria-Marte deal last winter.

With that in mind I could very much see the Red Sox accepting the Dodger bid or the Cub bid, if the names being bandied about are accurate, so long as the Dodgers or the Cubs are willing to assume the entirety of the Manny contract.

Bottom line, even with Manny's contract becoming reasonable in this ridiculous market, if I'm a team with a bunch of top prospects, I would still be leery about trading for a 35 year old defensive liability with a penchant for taking entire months off because he doesn't feel like playing.

yes CONTENT!!! love it J/K some of this article stated that the giants would eat Matt Clements 9 million in the deal. i would really rather not get rid of Manny the guy can straight up hit. i dont know why this guy linked to THe buzz here is the whole article from espn http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2677627

i also doubt he will go to the giants, but the Cubs are interesting cuz he may be atrracted there by all the ype and signings and the fans will love him there. but on the other hand Lou Pinella may not give Manny the rest he "thinks" he deserves, but i do think he will not be on the Red Sox come the start of the season

Soriano
DeRosa
Lee
Manny
Aramis
Jones
Barrett
Izturis

Jesus....

The cubs deal looks enticing but even they will not take on his whole salary. Remember, they still need to save money for 2 pitchers!

bsox21,

Veal and Gallagher are indeed the Cubs' top 2 pitching prospects. Veal is a tall, hard throwing lefty with huge strikeout rates and walk totals. He's got a miniscule hit rate so far in his career. His stuff is top tier, he's just untested at the higher levels.

Gallagher is a medium-sized righty with very good control and solid stuff, but nothing too overpowering. He has added 2-3 mph to his fastball in the last year, so he's working in the low 90's now.

Veal can be a #1 starter, Gallagher can be a great #3 or an average #2 depending on if he keeps developing physically to match his mental game.

I think its funny that everyone is worrying about ramirez not accepting a trade even though he has asked for a trade numerous times. But leave it to manny to do something like that.

i kno all about those guys.

i wasnt the one to ask about them.

Man-Ram on the Cubs would be sick. If the offer is true that's a pretty good deal for both sides. That being said I don't understand the money part either unless Hendry is working with an unlimited budget.....I could understand it if certain players like Dempster, Izturis and Eyre were a part of the trade to offset the cost to a certain degree.

The dodgers have the stuff to make the best offer. To me i think it comes down to whether they are willing to move billingsley in a deal. If I was the dodgers, I wouldn't.

Howry makes 3 mil and he was the most expensive guy mentioned in that deal. In any manny trade, the red sox will eat atleast 10-15 million.

TTTTTTTTTTRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
AND
HHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLMMMMMMMMMMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the BoSox were to take that deal, I'm pretty sure the egos that will be together in that field would be destructive... that's 2 batting champs, Mr. 40-40-40, and the "Bonified Slugger" in ARam.

Rediculous.

It'll be way cool to see the Cubbies screw this one up.

Think: Yankees 01-Present or if another sport suits you...Real Madrid Football Club hasn't won a Major Trophy since 2003.

Can't buy me love...Or Championships.

That is...

Omar Minaya, if by God's grace you are reading this...PLEASE GET MANNY FOR MILLEDGE AND HEILMAN!!!!!!!!

If this happens, you can crown the Mets as NL Champs again, World Series champs if they get a pitcher (Zito/Glavine back) on top.

Im not trying to argue with a Cubs fan when I say this... That is my disclaimer...

But, what happens when that lineup faces Roy Oswalt, Roger Clemens, and Chris Carpenter this season... They lineup is sooooo right handed and there are a ton of k's in there... It sounds just a little too good to be true. Get a left handed hitting left fielder that can absolutely rake in the middle of that lineup ( Jacque Jones isn't exactly what Im talking about). If you're going to spend 19MM on a player he better fit your needs...

Soriano
DeRosa/Izturis
Ramirez
Ramirez
Lee
Jones (or other OF option)
Barret
Izturis/DeRosa

Not a bad lineup.
I'd say that certainly rivals the Mets in the NL.
But what kind of budget are the Cubs working with?

With the Red Sox wanting to part with Clement, would he be included in the deal?
He was decent with the Cubs.

"In any manny trade, the red sox will eat atleast 10-15 million." ~greenbaydude1232

That could possibly be the least informed post on this site ever. Know what your talking about before you post. You are talking about nearly half the contract of a 2 year deal of a future hall of famer that's been established is a low-risk bargain in this market. Brilliant post, greenbaydude1232.

As far as the guy stating trade Heilman and Milledge for Manny... I don't think that will get it done... The offers for Manny are going to be better than that... Besides both of those guys are the most overhyped trade bait I have ever seen... Every trade discussion begins and ends with Milledge and Heilman... It's getting old. Besides, why wouldn't Minaya keep Milledge if he was such a can't miss prospect.. With Floyd leaving there is a gaping hole in left field... If he was so good, wouldn't he be filling it?

This is my analysis of what teams have to offer:

SF - Benitez, ???
LAD - Billinglsey, LaRoche, Kemp, Loney
SD - S. Linebrink, (TERMELL SLEDGE??? LOL)
CHC - Murton, Howry/Eyre/Dempster, Veal, Gallagher, Pie (I know...but still)

All in all, I think Manny is a Dodger by the Time Dice-K signs with boston.

Mando is a negative, not something to offer

The SF/Manny discussions have more to do with each side wanting some leverage in other negotiations. BOS with SD/LA/LAA and SF with Bonds, since all the power LF options are off the FA market

Forgot NYM...with milledge and heilman.

TNS - ok so i made that statement a little fast. What I should have said is in any trade the redsox will eat some salary. In a trade with the cubs they will have to eat atleast 7 million.

Also I think sending Clement back to the cubs might work but the cubs would need to add a high salary guy into that deal. Possibly Sending Dempster instead of Howry and adding in maybe scott moore or somebody.

That Cubs offer looks pretty nice...I like the idea of Murton pressing WMP in left, or of flipping one of them (preferably Murton) somewhere else for more pitching. Howry looks like the best (semi-plausable) candidate anyone's come up with to close. And I'm always a fan of adding young, top pitching prospects.

I think it's more likely that he goes to LA, though. He's got to approve the trade, and is said to prefer the West Coast. If he ends up with the Dodgers, who would probably love to give Manny another year or two on his contract...the possibilities there are just endless. Laroche used to play SS before being moved to 3rd because of Joel Guzman...I wouldn't be too upset if he and Pedroia took the MIF this season. I know he hurt his shoulder at the end of last year, but he's supposed to be ready to go by spring training.

I really doubt this is a possibility...but Jon Broxton? There's Boston's closer, if the Dodgers are really serious about landing Ramirez. Hell, I'd at least consider a Loney+Broxton (deal Lowell, play Youk at 3rd) or Laroche+Broxton deal straight-up for Ramirez...as long as LA takes most, if not all, of his contract. Really, the plausability of this happening depends on how desperate the Dodgers are to add a bat. And just how much Ned Coletti loves former Boston players.

At first glance, this would seem to be putting the team in rebuild mode...but really, you'd potentially be improving SS and/or 1B, and depending on your opinion of WMP, may end up recouping SOME of the offense you lose with Manny while building towards a far brighter future. If Broxton's off the table, and he probably is...Loney, Laroche, and maybe one other prospect still doesn't look too bad to me.

hm...am i the only one still here? I thought id be able to get into atleast 3 arguments tonite! haha...

I can't find the article, but one of the Boston newspapers said that the Red Sox wanted to flip the prospects they got for ManRam to the Braves for Andruw Jones. I'm not sure if either Andruw or ManRam would agree to a trade without a huge payout... Any thoughts?

P.S. The Cubs will set the world record for doubles and triples allowed with an outfield of ManRam, Soriano, and Jacque Jones. All three should be DH's

yeah, destrubd it certainly looks like the dodgers have the stuff to make the top offer but for all the hype there is around this no one really knows what exactly anyone is willing to give up -- its all speculation. I'm sure we will learn mor ein the next week or so leading up to what seems like an inevitable trade.

desturbd1,

I like it... Broxton is a stud in the making. If Boston landed him, they might not miss a beat with Papelbon in the rotation...

Lets not forget that there are some other teams that are going to be in contention for Manny's services as well. The Angels would definately have their nose in it. I find it hard to believe the Phils wouldn't at least posture at the idea of trading for Manny. I could also see the Rangers and Diamondbacks making a play for him...

greenbaydude1232: The part you're not comprehending is the more of his salary they pay, the more talent comes back. For the garbage proposition of Howry, Veal, Gallagher, & Murton for Manny & $7m, Theo would have to be high and have a gun to his head. You start talking money coming back when you are getting multiple near major league ready or proven talent. Gallagher isn't better than any Top 10 Red Sox pitching prospect. Veal on the other hand is good LHP but still has done nothing past the low minors. Murton is not much more than a 4th outfielder at this point or a serviceable LF in a small market. Thinking that that package is worth Manny alone is insane & it's even more of a fantasy when you start talking about $7m paid (& worse 10-15 like you said earlier).

Call me Chipper -

How can you say soriano should be a DH. At 2B it sure seemed that way but he adjusted to the OF very well and VERY FAST last year. More adjustment will come and he will be atleast an above average corner OF. He led the league in assits last year with 22 i believe.

Ramirez can play fine D if he is in a place where he actually wants to try.

Jones isnt a great fielder but certainly should not be a DH!

It really seems like this time a Manny deal will happen. Some of you need to get off the Mets possibility, they signed Alou for a reason. When I heard the Giants were involved in the Manny talks I was surprised since they have almost no young, MLB-capable players to deal (no way Cain would go anywhere). A third team would have to be involved.

I think the Dodgers have the players the Sox would most want, and as some above have suggested, they could move those pieces in another deal.

There's three things the Sox have to get out of a Manny trade and related movements: 1) comparable offensive replacement 2) a closer and 3) at least one other closer-quality bullpen arm. The Sox don't have the MLB-ready prospects to get all these via other trades, so it has to start with Manny.

My gut feeling is that they could get Billingsley and Loney for Manny, then flip Billingsley for a closer. Then, they could trade Lowell for a bullpen arm, shift Youk to 3rd and use Loney at 1st. Sign Drew and Lugo, and I think they would be where they need to be.

Trading Manny won't be that easy, because of course, he has to approve of the deal, he probably wants an extension, who knows if an NL team would want him, etc. All I know is that LA needs power and the Sox don't want Manny around anymore.

Oddly enough, if Manny goes to the Dodgers, it will contribute to another ex-Sox star to the LA "Blue Sox" with Nomar, D-Lowe, and Grady as well as Billy Mueller in the front office. Pretty funny.

Call me chipper,

"P.S. The Cubs will set the world record for doubles and triples allowed with an outfield of ManRam, Soriano, and Jacque Jones. All three should be DH's"

Get this man a gold star... He understands... Soriano is playing center field for the first time in his career in ' cough ' Wrigley field... Wow.... Manny is a slug and Jacque is servicable at best... If your going to prepare a package... Go after Andruw or Vernon...They're cheaper ( well now at least) and are more suitable for Chicagos situation...


Greenbay dude,

The media doesnt like Soriano so they trash him every chance they get.

Most of these monkeys jus regurgitate the media, so they too, take shots at Sori.

He's a top 10 player in all of baseball. These fucking monkeys have no clue, even tho they call themselves "baseball fans".

TNS -

I do not know very much about the red sox minor league system but I can say with 100% certainty you do not have 10 pitchers better than gallagher, let alone 10 players. Murton would be competeing with WMP for the job and one might end up being re-traded. If you had read you would have realized I have considered the idea you talked about which is why I talked about taking Clement and adding another prospect in as well.

Cubs could sign Drew & Lugo for what Manny costs right now without losing all that talent in the deal as well. No Deal!

Prospect-wise, the Angels & the Dodgers have the talent to build packages that fit the Red Sox. The Angels have expendable young starting pitchers, a young SS that resembles Hanley Ramirez in Erick Aybar, a potential power bat in Brandon Wood, & someone to step in to be the closer in Scot Shields. The Dodgers have talent like LaRoche, Kemp, Billingsley, & Broxton. While obviously not commanding every name mentioned, these teams have talent that fits in return and given the right package could get salary relief. You don't get paid to give up lesser talent (like the Cubs package mentioned).

"Get this man a gold star... He understands... Soriano is playing center field for the first time in his career in ' cough ' Wrigley field"

The cubs have said they would move jones to CF before Soriano. Though they plan to acquire a CF, this would probably change if they acquired manny. So how bout doing some research before you talk.

If the Red Sox flip whatever they get for Manny for Jones I'll shoot myself. Really, really bad idea, and I'm pretty sure that was just idle speculation. Jones is a Boras client who's unlikely to sign an extension in his walk year (unless he's made an offer he simply can't refuse) and will command an absurd amount of money after 2007. Yeah, he's a good player...but I don't like the idea of trading for him. I'd rather wait until after 2007 and use some of the, what, $51MM(ish) Boston will free up without Lowell, Manny, Schilling, and Clement to take a look at the FA market.

Anyway, yeah I know this is all speculation and we don't really know how desperate teams are, and who's really making a play for him...but it's fun to pretend that we do. :)

And TNS, I don't understand the hostility to that Cubs trade. Murton's a 4th OF on a VERY deep club (like Boston)...I think he earned a starter's role last year. A .300 AVG against both righties and lefties and an .809 OPS from a 25 year old is nothing to sneeze at. And Howry's a bit older then I realized...but cheap and gone after 2008, when one of the kids should be ready to step up. As for Veal and Gallagher...yeah, they're a ways off...but they're also top prospects and at worst, trade bait.

Anyway, I still like the Dodgers better. As a Boston fan and as a realist...I think they're more likely to get something done then Chicago.

Bsox21,

"He's a top 10 player in all of baseball. These fucking monkeys have no clue, even tho they call themselves "baseball fans".

10 that are better than Soriano... He strikes out way too much and now has a horrible contract to go with it...Try to argue, I think few will disagree with this list..


Carlos Beltran
Ryan Howard
Albert Pujols
Manny Ramirez
David Ortiz
Vernon Wells
Alex Rodriguez
Miguel Cabrera
Jose Reyes
Vladimir Guerrero

Carlos Beltran - Yes
Ryan Howard - Yes
Albert Pujols - Yes
Manny Ramirez - NO -- Uh, No
David Ortiz - NO -- Atleast Soriano can play in the field.
Vernon Wells -- NO -- May offer more D but Sori is way better offense
Alex Rodriguez -- Yes
Miguel Cabrera -- Yes
Jose Reyes - Yes
Vladimir Guerrero - No - 2 years ago, yes, but not anymore

However there are some names you left off your list such as david wright and also he said player...so id rather have guys like santana ahead of him as well.

I know im going to get shit for that list but its just my opinion.

Reyes? Soriano created more runs than him out of the leadoff spot this last year, how is he better. Vlad was mediocre for Vlad this last year, so that's real close. Ortiz is a great hitter, but can't play any position at all & while Manny plays LF & is a future HOF, his work ethic, contract, age, & defense are suspect while putting him close to even with Sori. Sori could easily be up there with some of these guys.

and the one hidden factor you are all forgeting...Soriano is going to lead off...none of the guys mentioned above besides reyes can lead off.

Soriano is just one of those guys people hate because others hate him because of the tantrum he caused in washington and how the rangers didnt get anything for him...yadayadayada. He is a good player...atleast top 15 batters in the majors. People just love to hate him and that will never change.

I surprisingly like your response except for Wright.

I'm surprised because I didn't think I'd find someone on this board that I agree with to this extent.

I'd take Sori over Wright.

Tough call with Reyes.

Sori is much more dangerous offensively and can carry ur team when hot. Reyes doesn't show the pitch recognition I want out of a guy that makes a living off his legs. Reyes depends a lot on batting in front of monster hitters that give him pitches.

Power potential is there, but he will never even approach Sori's HR #'s.

The good defense at SS is what makes it tough.

It would depend on the team I have.

If I have other sources of power, I take Reyes. If I'm stating from scratch, I take Sori over Reyes.

greenbaydude,

THere is ONE reason people don't like Sori, and that is the media.

how come everyone doesn't hate Clemens and Pettite for what they've done to handcuff the Astros?

Because the media doesn't report it.

Issues like Sori not wanting to change positions happens a million times a year.

Jeff Kent, JD Drew, Kevin Brown were all clubhouse cancers.

People complain about Drew once in a while, but nobody says shit about Kevin Brown and Jeff Kent.

Almost every teammate Brown and Kent have ever had hated them.

The media doesn't report those guys. They jump all over Sori, so these monkeys follow suit.

"And TNS, I don't understand the hostility to that Cubs trade. Murton's a 4th OF on a VERY deep club (like Boston)...I think he earned a starter's role last year. A .300 AVG against both righties and lefties and an .809 OPS from a 25 year old is nothing to sneeze at. And Howry's a bit older then I realized...but cheap and gone after 2008, when one of the kids should be ready to step up. As for Veal and Gallagher...yeah, they're a ways off...but they're also top prospects and at worst, trade bait." ~desturbd1

The reason for the 'hostility' is because it's something the Sox would never consider when you take into consideration their philopiphy when it comes to young pitching. They target, draft, and sign power arms. Someone like Gallagher is not someone the Sox would have as a key part in a package. Veal is but given he's the only attractive cog in the rumored deal, there is no way it happens. Matt Murton is a product of the Red Sox system so as far as his talent goes, you can't sell him as someone to step into LF for Manny to people who know Murton's talent/upside. Murton's not a bad player but again, he's not someone to be a key piece in a blockbuster trade. When it comes to attractive young talent, the Cubs don't match up well to the Sox' needs.

Everyone seems to be ignoring a tasty tidbit...that the Braves are interested. They certainly don't have any money to play with, but they might have some interesting pieces for the BoSox...

I personally don't believe Andrew would agree to a trade under any circumstances, as he wants to be comfortable in Atlanta before he sells out to the highest bidder, but barring him the Braves have:
Marcus Giles
Tim Hudson
Horacio Ramirez
and some decent prospects that might interest Boston.

Does Marcus Giles, Tim Hudson and, say, Jarrod Saltalamacchia sound possible? The financial details even out pretty well and the Braves have an LF hole...

I'm just gonna say that I hate about every single player mentioned in that list, accept maybe Kevin Brown.

Hate all around.

Nobody gives a shit about the Clemens and Pettitte situation because the only people that would are people that are Astros fans, and they more or less worship the ground those 2 walk on.

Much like we cardinal fans worship the ground Albert Pujols and Chris Carpenter walk on.

The only difference is, Pujols and Carp are, ya know, Good.

wow, what an ass I am...

(DISCLAIMER: Yes astro defenders, I'm well aware of both Clemens' and Pettitte's stats. They are very good pitures. I merely said the above to piss you off.) :-)

I of course ment Andruw in my last post...also, Atlanta's Matt Harrison might better fit the trade, as the Sox would probably prefer young pitching...

The Braves do have a couple interesting SS and catching prospects & someone like Adam LaRoche is a good fit at 1B. Marcus Giles does no good to the Red Sox as constructed (deep at 2B, nothing promising currently at SS). Hudson would be an interesting buylow situation but you have to think that the Sox wouldn't take on that entire salary after horrible years in the NL without getting the prospects too. Both Boston & Atlanta need reliable pressure-inning bullpen arms and that's where you start to see the distance. The Braves aren't going to want to add money and the Sox aren't going to want to pay it without equal value in talent in return. There are parts of what you say that do make sense & the 2 teams have done buisness multiple times last season.

I'm a little torn on Vlad vs Sori.

Vlad will be good no matter who he plays with, however, Sori is a nut job if he has at least SOME protection...

Translation: If my lineup sucks, I want Vlad, but if I have some protection, I drop Sori in there and watch him go berzerk.

Vlad has lost a step, but he still throws fucking laser beams.

TNS, I know Murton is a former Boston farmhand...and I also know that he was an important part of the 2004 trade. Boston didn't really love giving him up but, obviously, they had to do it.

Why exactly doesn't Sean Gallagher count as a "young power arm?" His K/9 is above 9 in the minors, but his control definately needs some work. I'm asking because I don't know a hell of a lot about him...but he and Veal both look like pretty good, though far off, arms.

Again, I agree that the Cubs don't match up nearly as well as the Dodgers. But I do think there could possibly be something there. The more I think about it, the less a fan I am of that deal...but I don't think it's that bad a place to start.

"P.S. The Cubs will set the world record for doubles and triples allowed with an outfield of ManRam, Soriano, and Jacque Jones."

If ManRam and Soriano are in the Cubs' OF next year, you can be pretty certain that Felix Pie will be between them. Not great defensively, but not terrible either. Only ManRam is a liability... Soriano and Pie would be average or better.

It's certainly far better than Alou - Lofton - Sosa.

My top 10:

Beltran
Sori
Arod
Pujols
Howard
M-Cabrera
Vlad
V-Wells
D-Lee

10th Choice: I'm torn between Berkman and Druw.

For people who think certain deals will inhibit the Cubs from getting pitching, let it be known, the Cubs have not stated a definite budget. Their has only been speculation that the Cubs budget would be $120-25 million.

allabouthephils,

Manny Ramirez hits righties at a career .948 OPS clip, so I'm not sure what your righty dominated lineup argument is there.....Your saying that instead of getting Manny, we should go get a power lefty bat....find me a lefty bat that hits righties at that high of a clip....oh yeah and also one that absolutely destroys lefties. The whole balanced lineup garbage is for the birds. Get good hitters, right or left....the rest will sort itself out.

Didn't lefties kill the Mets last year?

Ok it will come down to dodgers, angels. And red sox. Dodgers offered billingsley, laroche and kemp. That will git it done. Angels will persue him n im thinkin a saunders, shields, cabrera/rivera or both offer. He will not go to chicago cubs(if he does u can all rub it in my face) cuz they r supposed to sign lugo n he will play cf. As much as i hate the possibility of it, the Dodgers will likely git him more than n e team else. Arte moreno said he wants tejada so i think that is the deciding factor for the halos. Again IMO. Dodgers #1 then red sox, then halos in top 3 teams to land manny in a trade.

O p.s. If halos dnt git manny or tejada, expect a figgins for crede trade.

If you take out defense & go on hitting alone, then Sori might be hard pressed to break top 10 since you can't argue against Big Papi, Manny, & Hafner, but with defense, all three of these guys are in a lower category.

Where does Dye rank after this last year? He really broke out.

feelthebyrne,

1st off...you talk with so much certainty so let me just squash one thing down right quick. Joe Crede for Figgins would definitely not happen. In fact, Ken Williams even laughed at the idea when asked. Chone Figgins can't hit.

I would take any of those 10 over Soriano any day. Here's another 10

Bay
Jeter
Crawford
Wright
Andruw
Hafner
Mauer
Berkman
Sizemore
Ichiro

and if we're talking pitchers shit. That's another 20 guys. Guys like Dunn Konerko Utley are on the same level as Soriano. I don't understand what is elite about him? If he is playing great D at CF or 2B I'll call him elite but not as a corner OF. Moises Alou out slugged him in his this year at age 39.

DH should be considered a position. Dont write a guy off because he plays DH, it's a position and someone has to play it. You tell me they dont play defense well some pitchers slack off and all they do is pitch and stand in the batter's box and wait til they strikeout. You have to realize what player gives you a better chance to win. It doesn't matter what position they play but if that player can improve your team.

pinetar,

sori isn't nearly as bad as u or the media make him out to be.

If sori sucks at defense, half of the league sucks at defense.

He had better range than most 2Bs in baseball.

Sure, Sori might boot some balls, but Jeff kent wuoldn't even TOUCH a lot of those ground balls.

Same for Chase Utley, Mark Derosa, Adam Kennedy.....

Stop regurgitating the media's crap.

I watched Sori day in day out as a Yankee and many of his games on the Rangers.

He was at least as good as most other 2Bs in the league.

As for his time in LF, it takes TIME to learn a new position.

OF is tough when you have no experience. The only way to get good reads in left is with experience, of which Sori had none.

It's a joke that the media keeps harping on Sori not getting "good jumps".

It's a crock of shit really.

Dunn? you'd seriously take Dunn over Soriano? Wow!Alou was also injured for much of 2006 so that's a real good measure for him.

bsox, when did I say he was terrible defensively? I said if you take defense out & only go on hitting, that's when Papi, Manny, & Hafner come in. I said nothing about Soriano's defense hurting his value, actually I said quite the opposite.

thrillhouse,

your list is a joke. i won't even respond to you.

Sorry pinetar....

as for Dye, I considered him for my all-underrated team on another thread.

When healthy, there's no question he is lethal.

Soriano is a great player but I will much rather have a number of players before him, I personnally dont think he'll be the best player on the team, Dereck Lee, IMO, will have a better year, if healthy.

It was meant to emphasize that he is not elite in the corner OF spots. Alou the past 3 years has beat Soriano's career year OPS at 37-39.

I said same level not better then. Dunn is probably a bad example but still has a higher career OPS the Soriano. Soriano at 2nd best player is a joke. Bsox has such a mancrush on you Fonzie.

Thrillhouse will ignore that Dunn is atrocious on defense and bat .230 for u and that Alou will only giv u 400 Abs.

Forget about the fact that Sori is a million times faster than both.

This guy wants Konerko over Sori, even though there is NOTHING BASEBALL RELATED that Konerko does better.

Konerko played in one of baseball's easiest HR parks and played 1B vs Sori in perhaps baseball's toughest hitters parks learning a new position and beat or MATCHED him in every category.

Never said any of those guys were better. It's so pointless to argue because comparing a mashing 1b to a whatever the hell you want to put Soriano as, is too subjective.

Compared to Corner OF he's not elite. Compared to CFs or at 2B he is. There black and white.

Name the corner OFs that you think can compete with Sori's production.

Adam Dunn you dumbass?

Adam Dunn doesn't even touch many balls that Sori at least comes close too.

Sori cuold do 3 fucking laps around the stdium bfore Adam Dunn can do ONE.

Adam Dunn bats .230 and hits LESS HOMERUNS in baseball's EASIEST HR PARK vs Sori in baseball's TOUGHEST HR PARK.

Sori steals a trillion more bases than Dunn.

Sori takes over games.

Dunn waits to guess right on a pitch and hits a HR when he does, and does NOTHIGN when he doesn't.

No corner OF provides Sori's combination of speed and power. NONE!

You can get off Dunn I never said he was better once.

40/40 makes him the best player in the game? Fantasy baseball sure. Not real baseball. Have your opinion dude, I have mine.

25 people out OPS-ed Soriano's career high last year alone among qualifiers. Konerko on that list surprisingly so that is one baseball thing. Hey 3 because he had a better BA and OBP.

A mashing 1B?

Let's take the ONLY THING KOnerko is SORT of good at and compare.

SLG %? About the same.

HRs? Sori hits in a MUCH TOUGHER HR park than Konerko...

HMMMM

NOPE! Sori DESTOYED HIM with 11 MORE HRs...

Sori isbetter than Konerko at every other baseball related activity.

You sir definitely Dig the Long Ball along with the stolen base. And again never said Konerko was better you just have no real answer for my shit and focus on things I didn't say.

.20 points is a meaningful difference to you?

That makes up for 40+ steals and the ability to play positions other than 1B?

U ignore Sori's game changing speed for .20 points in OPS?

This discussion is a joke.

Purely with the bat he isn't that elite. Keep in mind this was last year with .3 higher then any other season he has posted. So hes not likely to be top 50 in other seasons.

40/40?

Try 40/40/40.

Forty DOUBLES too.

And oh by the way, he hit FORTY SIX bombs..

And oh by the way, this has NEVER been done before.

You baby-bear fans get Sori and now you think EVERYBODY is coming to Chi-town. Laughable. Get some pitching before you get too excited, kids.

NEWS FLASH:
Wood, Prior, and Miller are done. Anything positive from them this season would be a VERY unlikely bonus.

Sori+D.Lee+A.Ram is DAMN scary, but Zambo can't pich every game...and he's all you've got!

Zambrano
Hill
Miller
Marshall
Guzman

That's one PATHETIC rotation. Unless you guys land Zito and/or Schmidt, be afraid.

And if he gets game changing speed credit then so do Crawford and Sizemore. And they are better with the glove so that is why I would rather have them.

way to zing me with that 40/40/40 line which i still see in his slugging. So his power is good 14th in the MLB. And he and Beltran are the only one who can steal. Let's just totally ignore that whole OBP Batting average side of baseball.

Thrillhouse,

you're a fucking moron.

doubles are a reflection of power too u dumbass.

You're completely misinterpreting OPS.

Just stay in ur fucking capsule dude.

Forget Sori, Don't even wtch him.

Just ignore him and watch Dunn and Konerko post their home park inflated stats and slug around the bases and make meaningless contributions defensively.

You can continue to take isolated statement I make uot of context to support ur argument.

Take Sizemoe and ignore Sori's 46 HRs.

Fuck it. I don't care.

SLG % is not the end all be all to power you stupid fuck.

BOS gets CF Andruw Jones and SS Erick Aybar OR SS Sean Rodriguez
ANA gets LF Manny Ramirez
ATL gets CF Jacoby Ellsbury, SP Nick Adenhart and SP Jose Arrendo

Either pitching prospect going to the Braves could be replaced by Ervin Santana and the shortstop prospect going to the Red Sox could be replaced by Brandon Wood if either or both of those changes would make the deal work.

Anaheim gets Manny for three expendable prospects (albeit very good ones), Atlanta gets three excellent prospects for Andruw and Boston gets a power bat to replace Manny in the order, as well as a future SS. Vlad and Manny would be the new two-headed monster in the AL, the Braves ensure their financial future while securing a ton of talent and the Red Sox (with the signing of Drew) would maintain a great lineup and suddenly have excellent OF defense. The Cubs will sign Lugo to play CF as a consolation prize and the Dodgers are left to embrace a very promising youth movement in the near future. Something tells me that the Mets lineup will survive without Manny and that San Fran will re-sign Bonds because neither has any real alternative. Looks like a good deal all around to me. Thoughts?

I know I posted the potential trade above in a previous thread, but it's certainly more appropriate here and I'm still looking for other opinions on it. Thanks.

How is slugging not the be all to power? If he had that game changing speed he should be getting some triples to add even more to his total bases.

Soriano batted leadoff so he got 70 or more ABs then everyone else that finished in the top 10 in HRs. More ABs = More HRs. Same with his doubles. Same with SBs.

i just cant understand how you can bat a guy that hits 46 homers lead off it just doesnt make sense to me.it seems like a mistake. getting a guy on in front of a guy that makes stealing a base look so easy is a mistake. IMO stealing a bag is much less important than driving in a run soriano should be batting in the 3 hole at the very least the #2 spot. sure he has alot of talent can play outfield an 2ndbase but he is a defensive liability at second 20 errors a season is the going rate! sure 11 errors in the outfield thats great you know who had 1 more error in the out field ADAM DUNN. I am sure if SOriano didnt have the speed to steal as many bags as he did then his errors would be far higher than 11 or 12 i bet it would look more like 20 :)

>>

I can tell you with CERTAINITY that the Cubs will not do that deal. No, I don't have a source, but I have something better....common sense. It doesn't not make sense to trade their Top 2 starters and very good and cheap LF option, and arguably baseball's top set-up man for 2 yrs of Manny Ramirez. I don't care how intimadating a a front six that would look, the trade doesn't make sense from the Cubs POV. Now if Jonathon Papelbon and/or Craig Hansen would be coming towards the Cubs with Manny, then I could "see" the trade happening. If it is straight up 4 for Manny, it is beyond lunacy.

He had a career year stop basing everything on last year when he hasn't proved he's better or as good as he was last year consistently.

anyways Manny to La sounds like a fit not only for the team but for Manny he had stated a few years back he was at the mall and didnt get hassled for being a famous ball player like he would in any town. gas station, bar ect. ect. in any pert of New England. Manny will not go to the Phillies as someone had said. i would doubt the Cubs will be able to put together a package that would fit. and all that said Manny makes the Sox a better team and he only takes up 1 spot on the roster. unless its a closer SS and young starting pitching Manny stays right where he is!!!

Just to mention, he almost went 40-40 in back to back seasons in yankees stadium, which is also one of the toughest parks in baseball to hit HRs in for RIGHTY hitters.

Forget it man. Ignore Sori.

You have managed to misinterpret statistical analysis of the game and screw up a very simple game for urself.

Forget Sori. Just keep hating him.

Go ahead and miss perhaps the most electrifying, game changing player of our era besides BArry Bonds.

I'm still waiting. Keep cussin and repeating the same thing. I don't care about parks. Soriano was average in Texas in the best hitters park.

hey BS ox settle down. you don't have to blow your little man crush for Soriano all over the place. its getting messy and the guy with the mop is on vacation.

he hits alot of homers (while no one is on base), strikes out a ton and steals a bunch of bases all while doing a horrible job in the field. at least bonds won a Gold Glove or 2 in-between injections o yeah i went there what what!!

Soriano 33rd in VORP in his career best season. 49th 05. 63rd 04. 13th in 03. 9th in 02.

Like I said if he's playing 2b he looks good in Texas Elite in NYY. But as an OF in his best year ever he was only 33rd.

Here's the Dodgers situation.

They will not trade Broxton or Kemp. Period.

LaRoche could be a center piece along with some pitching prospects. Some of the trades you guys were saying the Dodgers would offer are absurd. Red Sox don't have that much bargaining power here. ManRam has been screwing with the psych of this team for the past 3 years. His trade value isn't what it used to be.

If the Dodgers do execute a trade for him, I think it will involve Penny and Ethier. Bosox get another arm for the rotation and a pretty good young defender who could benfit from playing at Fenway. Moving Penny looks a lot more feasible now since Wolf is about to sign.

C - Russell Martin - $0.33MM
C -
1B - Nomar Garciaparra $7.5MM
2B - Jeff Kent - $9MM
SS - Rafael Furcal - $13MM
3B - Wilson Betemit - $0.345MM/Andy LaRoche - $0.33MM
IF - Olmedo Saenz - $1MM
LF - Andre Ethier - $0.33MM/Jason Repko $0.338MM
CF - Juan Pierre $7.5MM
RF - James Loney - $0.33MM/Matt Kemp - $0.33MM

OF - Marlon Anderson - $0.925MM
OF - Jayson Werth - $0.355MM

SP - Derek Lowe - $9.5MM
SP - Brad Penny - $7.5MM
SP - Randy Wolf - $8MM
SP - Chad Billingsley - $0.33MM
SP - Hong-Chih Kuo - $0.3275MM

RP - Mark Hendrickson - $2MM
RP - Brett Tomko - $4.1MM
RP - Jonathan Broxton - $0.33MM
RP - Elmer Dessens - $1.7MM (paid by KC)
RP - Yhency Brazoban - $0.345MM
RP - Takashi Saito - $0.33MM
RP - Greg Miller - $0.33MM
RP -


This accounts for $82MM next year. Dodgers payroll was $98MM last year. They have room to take ManRam's contract on.

U can't figure out that there were other issues with Sori in Texas?

Forget it dude.

When you compare Adam Dunn and Paul Konerko to Soriano, I don't want to talk baseball with you anymore.

When you isolate statements and make conflicting points like "I'll take Konerko cuz he has a higher OPS" and then choose players with lower SLG becuz u think they have better defense and cant comprehend the value of 40+ steals, 120 runs and ignore 46 HRs and a league leading 22 assists playing LF for the FIRST TIME and argue that a 0.020 difference in OPS is meanignful over the cuorse of a full season...

You make me ignore YOU.

All you've proven is you read baseball prospectus and hardball times.

Doesn't mean you know jack shit about the game of baseball.

Also, taking your statistical analysis and ignoring the effect of playing half ur games in Washington and half ur games in Chicago, then you prove urself to be dumber than someone who doesn't understand statistical analysis at all.

Sori hit 11 MORE HRs.

Konerko wouldnt even break 30 playing half his games in Washington.

I never said I'd take Dunn or Konerko still. Can you read?

What was wrong in Texas then?

By the way, just to show you how stupid you are,

TWELVE WALKS in a FULL 600 AB season, equals 0.02 points in OPS.

For TWELVE WALKS, you are going take a 1B who hit 11 LESS HRS in a MUCH EASIER home park, with 40+ LESS STEALS, and a gillion other stats that Sori crushed Konerko in.

TWELVE WALKS. You're telling me a 1B who has the speed of a SLUG is comparable to an OF that can play 2B and destroy Konerko in every meaningful category for the statistical equivalence of TWELVE WALKS.

You're spitting out stats that you don't even understand u fucking moron.

He's also on the wrong side of 30 to be playing up the 40+ steal card.

.2 is not .02 by the way. Sizemore .04 worse OPS then Soriano's career year so Yes I go with him there.

Did you just use the word gillion?

That closes the argument for me. It must be past your bedtime.

The differe was 0.020 you dumbass.

It was a TYPO before.

If u took 3 fucking seconds and looked it up, you wuold have fgured it out.

Go enjoy Konerko for the statistical equivalence of twelve walks you dumbass.

All I said was Konerko out hit and ,though was outslugged, out OPS-ed Soriano. Never said I would take him over anybody. You want to read that because you can't argue anything else. You keep saying the same thing but don't respond to what I say.

spundin, you hit it on the head. Broxton aint going anywhere,especially with Saito being a question mark, and Gagne gone. Brad Penny is the key plus either Loney/Kemp/Ethier/Billingsly
,and or other prospects. The power starved Dodgers have the parts to make it work...Does Colletti have the balls to pull this off?
If he does, this Dodger fan will be happy. Bill Stoneman,should watch and learn!

dude,

I've made about 1,000 points you haven't responded to.

Now u want to harp on age becuz i showed u ur little statistical was complete bullshit?

So you want to take an inferior player becuz they're younger?

That's up to you.

Sori is fucking 30. Players nowadays stay productive and especially in cases with guys as athletic as SOri, well into their 40's.

Sizemore may NEVER be as good Sori, even if he does play longer from NOW.

That gives me about 8-10 years to develop 5 more Sizemores.

In 8-10 years, while you HOPE that ANY of your players will be as good as Sori, I'll have one of the best offensive forces in baseball tearing it up for me, and using the time in between to develop a whole minor league system full of prospects.

When an elite player is 30 yrs old, his age is NOT AN ISSUE.

Age doesn't make up for the diference between an elite talent and a good one.

Elite ones comes along once evry few years.

Sori is one fo the best players u will ever see, and u will have no fucking clue.

U have taken fantastic information from loads of baseball sites and allowed it to completely distort your view of a very simple game.

Like i said.

No point in discussing this wit you. You showed me in your second post where this is going.

I wil disprove u, u wil take somethign i take out of context, i will disprove u again, u will point to other meaningless information to support ur argument.

age and a 0.020 difference are the most meaningful arguments uve been able to generate.

Age with a 30 yr old player and 0.020 OPS with 2 players that play in vaslty different circumstances.

Reversnig the parks alone, would allow sori to SHOOT past Konerko in every meaningful category.

Let's see what konerko and dunn and sizemore would do with 400+ foot power alleys like sori deals with.

I don't see what you disproved or proved. You listed # of HRs doubles and steals.

I say he batted leadoff in his 3 best years and has more ABs thus more counting stats.

My point all along which you have gone no where near is when he was doing his thing at 2B he was elite. Not as a corner OF with even better #'s. He won't ever make my top 20 because I don't like him. But in any way you slice it he doesn't belong in the top 10 because he can steal a base.

THrillhouse,

Besides the stupidity you have spewed on this message board....

This says it all:

"He won't ever make my top 20 because I don't like him."

Even if I said absolutely nothing, you lose all your credibility with that single statement.

I bet you have some asinine reason for "not liking him" too.

Sori has done NOTHING to you. I can guarantee that much.

You proclaim to be a baseball fan, but you dont like one of the game's top talents and clearly most exciting playrs.

You're what i call a tabloid fan.

You enjoy the hype and media circus, NOT THE GAME ITSELF.

You enjoy sportscasters saying nice things, NOT THE SPORT ITSELF.

That's fine. 85% of the posters on this board are tabloid fans too.

I don't like him. I'd take a Chase Utley over him any day. If I wanted a power/speed 2 hitter I'd take my favorite player Carl Crawford.

I don't have to like anybody. I don't particularly like Pujols but he is the stone cold best player in the league. Numbers can't lie. And I don't think I was overly biased in my opinion.

I have 0 respect for any of your opinions as well. You made no compelling argument and had no response to any of my points. All you can come up with are curse words, and focusing on things that I never really said. And repeating 40/40/40 like 40 doubles in one year gives you the keys to the HOF.

hey, bsox-

not that i mind a little cursing and a fair amount of argumentation,

But don't try to make yourself out to be an elitest.

" 85% of the posters on this board are tabloid fans too."

what a Jackass...


I propose an incredible blockbuster trade including three teams, top prospects and two of the biggest names in the game today and I don't get a single response??? Is there anyone on this board that is more interested in baseball than they are in petty bickering and half-wit banter?! I'll repost the deal, but you guys will have to go back and look at the details that I added above. I hope somebody's paying attention this time...

BOS gets CF Andruw Jones and SS Erick Aybar OR SS Sean Rodriguez
ANA gets LF Manny Ramirez
ATL gets CF Jacoby Ellsbury, SP Nick Adenhart and SP Jose Arrendo

Either pitching prospect going to the Braves could be replaced by Ervin Santana and the shortstop prospect going to the Red Sox could be replaced by Brandon Wood if either or both of those changes would make the deal work. Thoughts?

Bsox I think you have a little bit too much of a man crush on Soriano. He is a very good player but he is not an elite player. It is hard to compare players who play different positions so I will just look at the positions Soriano plays. At second base here are the guys who are better than him:

Chase Utley
Brian Roberts

Thats pretty much it at second base. In left field the list is a little longer:

Carl Crawford
Manny Ramirez
Matt Holliday
Jason Bay

If he switches to center field these are the players who will be better than him:

Vernon Wells
Andruw Jones
Ichiro Suzuki
Carlos Beltran
Grady Sizemore

This is considering the total package of speed, defense, and hitting. Also if we look at people who dont play the same position there are a couple easy choices such as:
Pujols
Mauer
A-Rod

So by my count Soriano is most valuable at second base where he is the third best player other than that he is top 5 or so in left and center. His defense will probably stay right about average in left, and if you are using his steals as a point of value you must also look at how many times he got caught.

Sorianos steals were more valuable in 2005 when he stole 30 of them getting caught only twice. Last year Soriano stole 11 more but was also caught 15 more times.

The fact that people argue Soriano's value has nothing to do with the media it comes from objective observation. Soriano is a good player but he has many glaring flaws. He is still susceptible to the low outside slider, he strikes out way too much and doesnt walk enough, he also is too concerned with his own status. That is the reason he has so many caught stealing this season. When Sori gets close to a milestone such as 40-40 he starts running all the time and swinging for the fences until he gets there. Soriano is a top 25 player in this league but top 10 is too high for him.

And Bsox there is no reason to make personal attacks on the posters here. If you think their point is stupid find some kind of statistic or reason and then just post that and simply state that you disagree. When you make personal attacks as you have been doing you lose a lot of credibility as a poster.

Does Manny in chicago make anyone else think of Sammy Sosa? Not the corked bat or steriods but of his problems there often.

I could see the same coming from Manny. I think his best fit is with the LAA.

And yes I would take Vlad over Soriano brsox. And no Soriano's defense is not that great at 2B. His RF, %%%, etc etc etc wasnt that great. I think LF or CF is a good fit for him on most ball clubs. I am not saying he isnt a top 15 position player in MLB. But, if I am building a team he isnt in my top 10 to build with.

ejruiz I dont like your trade very much sorry. I think the Braves are letting the lesser end of the deal and the angels are giving up too much. Unless boston is assuming some of that contract as well?

Bos: Jones + Aybar (no way they do wood)
Ana: Manny + minor braves spec
Atl: Ellsbury, Adenhart, Ervin Santana.


I think that one works best but I have always found when teams match up perfectly together things rarely seem to happen. It is a good idea though.

Good post Kyle, I also dont think there is a team in baseball that would take Soriano over Vlad, Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, Jose Reyes, Miguel Tejada, Hanley Ramirez (young cheap 5 tool SS, money matters)

BOS gets CF Andruw Jones and SS Erick Aybar OR SS Sean Rodriguez
ANA gets LF Manny Ramirez
ATL gets CF Jacoby Ellsbury, SP Nick Adenhart and SP Jose Arrendo

Either pitching prospect going to the Braves could be replaced by Ervin Santana and the shortstop prospect going to the Red Sox could be replaced by Brandon Wood if either or both of those changes would make the deal work. Thoughts?

So Atlanta gets 2 nice arms, and a damn good CF for the next 6 years, for Andruw Jones in his walk year? But people seem to the think the Red Sox can't get the same for 2 possibly 4 years of one of the greatest right handed hitters that has ever played the game? I don't get it.


I'd have to think if the Red Sox would consider trading Manny and eating a significant part of his salary, then for sure they'd want MAJOR LEAGUE talent in return. The days of Hendry trading a bag of balls to Pittsburgh for half their team are over.

Cubs fans, I'd think maybe Prior, Howry and/or Dempster and Jones would be a starter for realistic talks.

34+ years old, attitude problems, headaches, huge monster salary and will want his option picked up to lengthen the contract to waive his no trade clause.

Jones is much more appealing. If he is signed long term he is a future potential HoF.

Heck why not just do Jones to LAA straight up without Boston? It makes more sense, slide mathews to LF to help defense as well. Put Jones in CF and you have the best defensive gloves/arms in the OF in baseball.

What was the last monster trade for a player in his walk year? Brewers got Cordero who had imploded and crap for Carlos Lee. Bowden couldn't get crap for Soriano. I can't imagine it taking a monster deal for move Jones. The braves aren't winning anything this year, half way decent offer and the money off the books should do it. That and anyone who gives Andruw Jones a monster contract next off season will be fired within two years. Only reasons his shoulders havent fallen completely apart by now is the fact that the next big contract is in sight.

BOS gets CF A. Jones + SS E. Aybar OR SS S. Rodriguez
ANA gets LF M. Ramirez
ATL gets CF J. Ellsbury, SP N. Adenhart, and SP J. Arrendo

My concern with these variations of a three-way trade (inc. the one that substitutes SP E. Santana) is that it involves Atlanta for the sole purpose of acquiring A. Jones.

From the Red Sox end, you have them surrendering Manny, a top 3 hitter despite his flakiness, and a top prospect in Ellsbury for what amounts to a brief rental and another top prospect in Aybar.

Disgruntled Manny > Rental A. Jones. Ellsbury/Aybar could be a wash, with a slight nod to Aybar for his position.

Now, somehow in all of this, Atlanta manages to pry away three top-flight prospects for a player on the tail end of his contract and due to receive a Boras-sized payday? I understand that Jones adds a great glove and good pop, but he also surrenders a great deal to Manny in OBP. If Manny for two years can't fetch three elite prospects, then I fail to see how Jones for one year can.

I think Atlanta makes out like bandits in these proposals, the Red Sox simply trade two years of a high OBP brand of slugging for one year of a mediocre OBP brand of slugging, and the Angels get hosed by ultimately giving up a package similar to that which they have thus far refused to surrender.

Sizemore vs. Soriano:

If you consider their contracts, Sizemore blows Soriano out of the water. I think that's obvious.

If you don't consider contracts (eg. say, take either one for the next 6 years at the same price), I think every GM in baseball takes Sizemore.

Given defense and OBP, Sizemore is probably better TODAY. It's close though.


Disclaimer - I haven't read all of the 100+ posts on this subject.

I don't believe Boston is willing to eat any of Manny's contract. If I remember correctly, local papers reported that Theo's asking price for Cleveland was Trevor Crowe, Fausto Carmona, and Adam Miller, AND taking all of Manny's contract. That's pitching prospects #1 and 2, and the #1 OF prospect. Plus Manny's salary.

If I'm Boston, Manny doesn't go to the Dodgers unless Broxton is part of the deal. If that's out of the question, I don't think a deal gets done. For the life of me I can't figure out why Manny isn't already with the Angels. It seems like such an obvious trade.

Bsox21, a few quick things.
Doubles add to your OPS.
For someone who has said at least six times "I'm done with you" or "I'm now ignoring you," you sure respond quickly to anything people are saying.
Also, you're a child. When you get to high school, ask your teachers about some good anger management. One day your biting whit ("dumbass," "monkey,") may improve.
And if someone doesn't like a player you like, why is it automatically the media's fault? If he doesn't like the guy, it's just because the media told him to? Really? He couldn't just not like the guy?

Soriano's a great player, but you honestly sound like you're on the verge of tears when you're defending him and typing in caps. I'm being serious.

RE: Sizemore.

I gotta leave myself out of this one, I'm way too biased. Same for Hafner.

I agree angels should just trade jones straight up. Give them adenhart and murphy and saunders for jones. But i dont think n e thing is gna happen if we dnt git zito.

Dunkin, you just took the words out of my mouth re. the proposed 3-way deal with Atlanta and the Angels. Like you said, Andruw Jones, a guy with one year left who is commanding $160MM+ when he hits free agency is worth 3 top prospects, while Manny Ramirez is worth a one-year Andruw Jones rental? (I'm assuming Aybar/Ellsbury is a wash, so Boston makes no net-gain in terms of prospects) That does not compute.

And whoever said Broxton is going nowhere...you're almost certainly right, but Brad Penny is somehow an attractive option? The same Brad Penny with a 6.25 ERA after the break last year? The 28-year-old who still hasn't reached 200 innings, doesn't have the upside Josh Beckett did, has exactly 0 dominant seasons in pitcher-friendly NL ballparks, and is a FA in 2 years? That Brad Penny? C'mon, you're deluding yourselves if you think he'd be a key part of a deal for Manny Ramirez. He's a scrub. There, I said it.

"why wouldn't Minaya keep Milledge if he was such a can't miss prospect.. With Floyd leaving there is a gaping hole in left field... If he was so good, wouldn't he be filling it?
"

OK, I usually agree with you phils, but not this time. First of all, there is no hole in left field. The mets signed Alou like a week and a half ago. Milledge is a cant miss prospect. Just because he didnt hit 30 home runs at age 21 means he is a bust. That being said, with Fernando Martinez and Carlos Gomez waiting in the minors for their shot (Gomez probably will be ready by 08, or hopefully, not probably), this make Milledge a LOT more expendable. Also though, this trade wont happen. If Milledge and and Heilman would have got Manny, it would have been done already. If Milledge and Heilman are dealt, they will almost certainly be pieces for a top line starter. Heilman is also very important to the Mets in 07 because of the uncertainy of Bradford, will they resign Mota? If so, he still misses 50 games. A lot of questions.

The Dodgers will not make a deal with the Sox. Colleti wants players that have been succesful in the majors but will not trade away some of the names the Sox are asking for. Billingsley is probably the thing everyone wants. He is the real deal from what I have seen watching him pitch. His stuff will get better and harder as he gains experience. The Sox are looking for Billingsley, Loney or Ethier, LaRoche, and another AA level GOOD pitcher. I dont see how any GM could give up all of this for Manny who wont be able to handle the large parks in the NL West. I dont believe his bat will make up for his lack of D in many parks. (Boston has the best park for him.)

As long as santana and wood are not involved im cool with it. I doubt it anyways that stoneman would give them up. But angels n braves should just tlk to eachother. Id rather have jones than manny anyway.

feelthebyrne i agree.

The Angels have more than enough true prospects to make the deal without hurting them, but they should not do it. Trading for Jones would be much smarter. He will protect Vlad well enough. The Braves (as usual) should be willing to stockpile arms that the Angels can offer. It appears the Angels have the upper hand on the market since they have some of the best young arms. They have 2 great arms they can move and can easily fill the rotation with more strong arms... thats the beauty of a good farm system. The Angels are in a possition of strength this offseason.

It would make for great new s in LA if the Angels traded for Jones and the Dodgers traded for Wells. (or vice versa)

Financially Penny looks like a bargain. He signed a 3 year extension in 05 for $25.5MM. Now, would you rather have him or someone like Lilly or Meche who are likely to command $8MM or $9MM a year most likely since guys like Eaton and Wolf are getting about $8MM a year? He is tradeable and him reuniting with Beckett could be something the Bosox would have to look long and hard at.

The Dodgers have about 15 guys in the minors that should be potentially ready to make their MLB debuts in the next 2 years. I think 2 or 3 of these prospects and Penny can get this done. I live in SoCal and they have Ned on the radio a lot and he has gone onto say since this past summer he will not trade Kemp, Loney or Broxton. These guys are going to be studs.

I have been listening to some of his radio spots as well. I cant see him giving up Billingsley either. Its interesting how Ethier might be a trade candidate since he is not home-grown. It seems developing OUR players is more important than keeping all good ones we come by.

Also interesting is how the Dodger farm has almost no speed and they signed Pierre for 5 years. Maybe its not such a dumb deal. Is Colleti really that smart... to sign speed for the future since we had none?

Pierre wasnt a bad move,depending on who else the dodgers get this offseason. People automatically jump out and say THIS SUCKS!! Lol Pierre led the league in hits, and is a good player. The money he is making is irrelevant, everyone is overpaid. With a big bopper in that lineup(wells, jones, ramirez), that lineup will be sick. Maybve pierre was just a small piece of the changes coletti was trying to make this offseason, and he is already getting his head ripped off, before the winter meetings even start

If Colletti is really refusing to part with any of the Billingsley-Broxton-Kemp-Loney group, then there will probably be no trade for Manny Ramirez. Although...Andre Ethier, LaRoche, and maybe a Brad Penny salary dump looks interesting to me. 'Course, with Ethier, Boston ends up with 4 OF deserving of a starting job, (assuming they sign Drew) so maybe Crisp gets spun elsewhere for more bullpen help. Or they keep the left-handed Ethier and let him press WMP and Crisp for playing time.

almost forgot... I could see Penny traded as well not because he is terrible (this is what Dodger fans are saying about him) but because he is a disturbance to the clubhouse. It seems Colleti is trying to sign good "team" that want to be in LA. (I know Kent doesnt really fit the mold, but he is super quite in the clubhouse from reports i hear. He apparently sits in the corner and listens to music and thus does not disrupt.)

However, can the Dodgers give up a power arm at a bargain price. I dont mind moving him, but it seems Spundin (above) made a decent point that he is, in fact, a bargain at 7.5 million next year for a experienced MLB pitcher.

This is why I would only move him if the Dodgers were getting a (ready to sign long term) Vernon Wells, A. Jones, possibly a Carl Crawford or Rocco Baldelli type. The cash could be offered to the new CF. This also makes Ethier or Kemp expendable. Repko i would keep for his strong defense and amazing arm. He is a good OF to have on the bench, although I would love to see his bat improve enough to have him man center everyday. Either way the Dodgers dont HAVE to do anything... I just think they should do something or risk repeating the Angles mistake last year. (not adding a bat when they had strength to give up.)

"Cubs could sign Drew & Lugo for what Manny costs right now without losing all that talent in the deal as well. No Deal!"

Drew is going to get 14-15 mil and manny makes 17. I would like to see you sign lugo for 2 mil a year. Cubs will not get manny. They need starting pitching much worse. They could be an interesting candidate for a 3 team deal as there is some history there (how murton got there in teh first place). I scanned the posts the only interesting/inciteful things I saw were giants possibly taking on clements salary and andruw rumors cause I still doubt red sox trade manny just for prospects or spare pieces without turning around and trading for a competent 4 hole hitter.

Cubs fans are funny. They can trade for manny right now and still wouldnt be a playoff team. Maybe not even a 500 team

It will be a sad day in the Bronx when the Red Soxs come to town and there is no Manny Ramirez. What happened?

The Cubs could potentially be losing games 14-12 next year, as opposed to 7-4 this year.

nrmax: Dude, you lambast the Cubs for doing all this and saying they will still suck while they are CLEARLY not done making moves, yet you praise the Dodgers and tell everyone to wait and see with Pierre because they are not yet done as well. So, wait and see how Pierre fits in the grand scheme of things after the Dodgers are done making moves, but ridicule the Cubs while they are about 50% done. Right.

MATT HOLLIDAY???

GRADY SIZEMORE???

JOE MAUER????

BRIAN FCKING ROBERTS??

BETTER THAN SORIANO?

ARE YOU ALL FUCKING RETARDED???

JESUS!

You guys really are monkeys.

There are about 1,000 arguments I could post right now. So much bullshit is posted on this I don't even know where to start.

Just forget it. Your beyond stupid.

This message board is a joke. I thjought people knew their baseball here.

I'll drop my thoughts on topics here. I am not responding to anyone anymore.

By the way,

HOlliday isnt even the best hitter on his own fucking team.

Garrett Atkins is u dumbass.

And just to mention on his "scouting report" here,

He chases so many sliders away, that he hit 46 FUCKING HRs in baseball's toughest HR park.

Let me giv u a little secret, when a player has a problem with sliders away, THEY DONT HIT 46 BOMBS WITH A 900+ OPS.

I CANT BELIEVE THE STUPIDITY ON THIS BOARD.

royler im blasting the cub fans not the cubs asshole.Cubs fans think their going to the playoffs and its absolutely hysterical. Not once did i say something about the cubs

"I am not responding to anyone anymore."

...And then immediately posts two more responses. Well done.

How many rbis did your boy have last year??? In comparison to the homeruns, he didn't have alot. What 95 was it? He struck out in 1/4 of his atbats... He hit a ton of solo bombs when they pitch to him without runners on... How many homers did he hit with runners on?
He is pretty brutal in the outfield .. I'll give ya that he has a cannon but come on and one could project that he is only going to get worse in Wrigley... You should also chill out a little.... What are you six years old having a hissy fit... Grow up...

nrmax wrote: They can trade for manny right now and still wouldnt be a playoff team.

How the FUCK is that not blasting the Cubs' moves--fucking retard? Keep calling me an asshole you high school piece of crap. All I said was don't sit there and be a hypocrite by saying let the Dodgers finish and then say the Cubs are not even a .500 team now. WE ALL KNOW the Cubs still suck--let's see how they look on paper after a couple of pitchers are added.

Who???

Jason Schmidt at 15MM a year??? What a joke... 15MM a year for a guy with velocity problems and health issues... The Cubs will probably go to 5 years for him and he will pull a Kevin Brown in 2.... Good luck....

ESPN's Peter Gammons believes Manny Ramirez will likely be traded within the next week and says the White Sox are a possibility.

Gammons says the Red Sox want three players back for Ramirez, and though the Giants may want him more than anyone else, they probably don't have enough talent to surrender to pull the deal off. Gammons also said that he expected a J.D. Drew deal to be finalized after Saturday's arbitration deadline and that he expected a Daisuke Matsuzaka signing to get done, though probably not until the last minute.

rotoworld

Not only is Joe Mauer better than Soriano dollar for dollar, pound for pound, and position for position... Joe Mauer wouldn't even take the time to pull down his pants to crap Soriano.

Soriano is John Valentin on steroids. Put that in your Ritalin pipe and smoke it.

Soriano is John Velntin on steroids....thats the best post ever.

According to Baseball Reference, Sori is most similiar to HoJo thru age 30. Im pretty sure the mets didnt give HoJo that insane contract the cubs gave Sori.

royler your a angry little guy arentcha? How is saying they arent going to be a playoff team blasting their team? So basically what your saying is if i dont think a team will make the playoffs, then i am blasting them? Smart, asshole

the dodgers are already good, they arent a shitty team like the cubs. The dodgers, unlike the cubs, are a good team, are one big bat away from an almost guarunteed division title. The cubs... not su much. They cant get on base, have no good lefty hitters, no starting pitching, and a shitty bullpen. You know what royler, now i just blasted your squad.ASSSSHOLEEEEE

if soriano didnt have 46 HR power and tried to dunk singles all over the place, he could bat for jus as high a batting average as mauer.

fortunately for us real baseball fans, sori does have 46 HR power in baseball's toughest HR park, so, we get to enjoy watching a sick player.

u morons stil manage to miss it tho.

"I am not responding to anyone anymore."

-bsox21

with the tying run at the plate, in the last inning down to the last out, there are maybe 5 or 6 guys in all of baseball i would choose over soriano.
(in no particular order)
Beltran
Howard
Pujols
Ortiz
Hafner
and soriano is right up there with these guys. I watched a nats yankees game earlier this year. Where the nats were down 1, sori singled, stole second, stole 3rd, and came home on a throwing error by posada trying ot get him at 3rd. Theres not too many guys in the league that cant beat u that way, or by simply drilling a 489 foot blast in the biggest, most cavernous park in the game

i forgot to add DLee and Jim Thome to that list, point is besides beltran, what other player in the league can steal bases like soriano can, and hit home runs like him( I know Beltran doesnt steal a huge amount of bases anymore, but he is capable of doing that if he want to, as his percentage is very high, and in most cases he wont run from first with delgado up to keep the hole on the right side open). Point being, Soriano can flat rake, and do it with his feet. Not many players can do that

How to be bsox21:

Create argument that makes no sense.

Justify it by typing soriano hit 46 HRs in baseball's toughest HR park.

Insult everyone who disagrees with you without even being creative.

Quit the board.

Repeat.


Dude get a life. Please change your name you are making my team look bad. Have you been taking anger management classes from carl everett? Yeah Soriano had a decent year last year and no one denies he has potential. However, the simple facts are Soriano has never played CF and no one rates him as an above average corner outfielder at this point. His numbers have been exceedingly inconsitent in various areas throughout his career. If you think he is the greatest ever that is fine. You are entitled to be wrong but you have to realize that just because you think it is true for some reason does not make it actaully true.

I'm going to put the kabbash on this whole Soriano thing right now.

walkoffblast, I agree with everything you said, and I agree that Bsox is disgracing our beloved team.

You can say all you want about 46 Hrs, 41 SBs, all the outfield assists, and the fact that he is an immensely talented player. No one is doubting that.

But Bsox, you claim over and over again that you are a "real baseball fan." The truth is, I can never understand why anyone that really gets baseball would have only positive things to say about Soriano like you.

Your memory is exceedingly short. During spring training, Soriano did something probably none of the players mentioned in this thread have ever done: He flatly refused to take the field for a game, despite the admonishment from one of the game's greatest figures, Frank Robinson. Soriano only went out the next day and played when he was faced with suspension and loss of pay.

That's enough for me to never want Soriano on my team, and let me take almost any other player mentioned on this thread over him.

"Real baseball fan," huh. Real baseball fans understand the game is about more than stats.

walkoff

you forgot MASH CAPS LOCK to PROVIDE extra EMPHASIS on vital STATS such as 46 HRS and 40 STEALS and 22 OUTFIELD assists in the WORST HITTERS park.

Kyle had the right idea but got a little carried away. Like I said he's the 1-1a best 2B in the league. The VORP showed that his two NYY years when he was playing 2B he was a top 10 player in the league. But better #'s then those last year, only got him 33rd when his replacement was a corner OF not a 2B.

Nrmax88,
U forgot to add vladdy to that mix of clutch players too. He hit a game tying GRAND SLAM against the red sox 3 postseasons ago.

O and to the person who said vladdy isnt better than soriano, i would take him over soriano ANY DAY. He may not have a whole lotta speed but he has more than most, and he can hit almost anything thrown at him and usually its a homerun. O and he has a canon for an arm.

bsox21, You keep threatening to quit posting. Stop teasing us.

As long as this is a Manny thread, and the Orioles keep coming up in trade talks... what about, say, Markakis/Ray/pitching prospect other than Bedard for Manny?

"Have you been taking anger management classes from carl everett?"

Heh, that was pretty funny. Kudos. But you guys can pretty much abandon all hope of using numbers to argue with Bsox...stats only matter to him when he's screaming about homers, doubles, and SB's. OPS only matters in a vacuum; Sori's 900+ OPS is impressive, but the fact that there were about 2 dozen position players, including 9 OF'rs, with higher OPS's last season means nothing. And the fact that over his career, his OPS is only .836...well that's irrelevant too.

What it comes down to, of course, is that Sori is an ABSOLUTE BEAST and we're all STUPID FUCKING MONKEYS for daring to question Bsox's godlike TV scouting ability. Or we're brainwashed yes-men simply agreeing with ESPN all the time. Depends on his mood.

And if Baltimore wants to give us Markakis, Ray, and another prospect for Manny...well that'd be perfectly OK with me. Not thrilled with having to play against him for the next 2-4 years, but Ray showed he can close in the AL East, and Markakis's second half last year was fantastic. I'd say this deal too heavily favors Boston, but as retarded as the O's usually are...who knows.

BSox21,

I know you won't respond to me, because you've already stated unequivocally that you won't, and you've proven adept at holding true to your word, but I have a question for you... Well, a couple related questions, really...

1. Would you prefer 46 solo homeruns, or 46 two-RBI singles?
2. In evaluating a players value, do 420-foot homeruns in a tough ballpark count for more runs than 330-foot homeruns in a smaller ballpark?
2a. If so, then can we reasonably project that the ever-consistent Soriano will project to about 97 homeruns this year in the friendly confines of Wrigley Field for half his games?
3. While Soriano is indeed "sick" for clubbing 46 homeruns (when he agrees to take the field, of course) what do you do during the 67.5 percent of the time that he has failed to reach base over his free-swinging career?
4. Depending on your answers to these questions, Mauer may or may not deign to pull down his pants long enough to crap Soriano.

Markakis, Ray, and another prospect for Manny? Why doesn't Mike Flanagan just thrown in Billy Rowell, Nolan Reimold, Erik Bedard and Tejada while he's at it? Of course I'd love to see it, but that would be crazy.

I can't believe that the O's would want to give up three quality young guys to a team within the division. But they also thought Sosa still had something left, and have thrown millions at average relievers this offseason, so you never know.

Well I proposed the idea because, well, Boston's asking price has seemd pretty high and I'd expect them to want a bullpen arm. The Orioles DO suddenly have a glut.

I don't know how much stock we all take in Bill James, but he's calling Markakis to have an almost identical stat line to Hideki Matsui next year.

You guys are forgetting the part about soriano being traded for by the nats before they even asked him if he would play the OF. I would love to see the day somebody trades for TO and tells him to play linebacker.
Soriano is a beats, you cant argue that. You all have some valid points tho. Sori is a special player, and there arent many players like him, or that can do what he can do.
He is a straight up athlete

There's a difference with the TO analogy. Yes, you could compare it to asking TO to be a linebacker ... if they had asked Soriano to be a starter. But they didn't.

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