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« Cubs Interested In Figgins | Main | Brewers Rumors: Street, Iguchi, Riske »
Johan Santana Rumors: Wednesday
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 7:50pm: Tim Brown says the Red Sox had a moment of doubt, but they remain the frontrunner for Santana. The previously mentioned packages apply.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 6:21pm: LENIII checks in on the interest level of the six teams involved.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 5:05pm: Santana's agent, Peter Greenberg, indicated that the Mets are in the running for Santana.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 2:48pm: BP's John Perrotto talked to a Twins official, and it definitely looks like the Meetings will end without a Johan deal. Perrotto says he's still likely to be dealt before Spring Training.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 2:18pm: Ken Rosenthal believes the door is open for more teams to jump in, especially the Mariners.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 12:43pm: Jon Heyman reports that the Mets are trying to work their way back into the mix. They're still viewed as a longshot without Jose Reyes in the offer, but at least the Twins are listening.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 12:21pm: The Red Sox and Twins are still engaged in talks. The Sox are still considering the Yankees a factor. And no, Ellsbury signing on with Boras doesn't change the Twins' opinion of him.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 11:26am: Joel Sherman describes Boston's two goals in the Santana Sweepstakes. He wonders whether the Sox and Twins could reach an accord on players and then the Red Sox wouldn't be able to agree with Santana on an extension. Meanwhile Gammons himself reiterates that he senses the Twins will hold onto Santana.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 10:54am: Peter Gammons via Amy Nelson is saying Santana may not be traded.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 9:56am: According to Keith Law via MetsBlog, the Twins have reached out to the Mets, Dodgers, and Angels to revisit Santana talks.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 9:43am: Joel Sherman agrees with Bill Madden's take below - part of the reason the Yankees pulled out is that even they have a payroll.
UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 8:30am: The Yankees could've had Santana for Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jeff Marquez, and Mitch Hilligoss. Brian Cashman, however, never wanted to sacrifice Hughes for Santana and convinced his bosses that the Yankees couldn't afford him now that Andy Pettitte is in the fold. This near-trade won't be forgotten by Yankees fans, unless Hughes takes off in '08.
FROM 12-5-07 at 12:55am:
Time for a fresh Johan thread. Yesterday's had 297 comments on it.
The Boston Herald's Rob Bradford says the Red Sox told Ryan Kalish's agent that his name has never come up in the Santana talks with Minnesota. Peter Gammons had said the 19 year-old outfielder was added to the deal to make it a 5-for-1 around 3pm yesterday.
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"Shoot, maybe we even see Kennedy traded to the BoSox for Elsbury or something crazy like that :)"
That makes even less sense for the Sox than the Santana trade! Going to a 7-man rotation and keeping the worse CF?
I thought we were letting the other stuff go? ;)
It's true that it's very easy to be misunderstood online: that's another reason I hate Typekey, it doesn't allow HTML tags so I can't italicize or bold or underline things for emphasis. And capitalization just looks like I'm trying to SHOUT my point across. But for me, if it descends to the point where I'd have to stoop to their level, I'd sooner just ignore it. I'm fully capable of not even bothering to read what they post, and I'd rather not feel shitty about myself. I'm a nice guy... being a jerk is not my usual M.O, and honestly, if it gets to that point than I don't care about their opinion enough to waste my time and energy any further.
Posted by: metafrantic | December 05, 2007 at 07:15 PM
so basically, 6 days later, we are nowhere accept for here
-the sox still really are the only team with an offer, even a few options, on the table
-people are still saying the mets are interested, which its obvious they arent because they havent put anyone on the block, i dont know like lets say...REYES!
-Yanks are in, out, in, out, in, out. the yanks are acting like a bad porn movie, whom if they just added kennedy, this wouldve been over 3 days ago
-Twins have tried every tactic they can POSSIBLY think of to get the price tag to go up, which is wasting SO much time
-Some posters, including myself, have even successfully traded superheros to other brands for other heros faster then this deal, i mean come on
All these updates (poor tim) really havent gone anywhere accept on the sox front, and now it seems they are going 2 steps forward with an occasional 1 back.
GOD THIS IS SO ANNOYING, IM LOSING SLEEP KEEPING UP WITH THIS, HURRY UP ALREADY!!
Posted by: 04Forever | December 05, 2007 at 07:28 PM
Another tim brown update:
"Yahoo! Sports' Tim Brown said talks between the Red Sox and Twins regarding a Johan Santana deal are back on as of Wednesday evening.
Brown believes the original parameters of the deal have not changed, and the Twins would probably get Jon Lester, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowrie and Justin Masterson. According to Brown, Seattle briefly emerged as a candidate, using Adam Jones and Brandon Morrow as bait, but talks there have stagnated, as they did with the Angels. He didn't mention the Mets. "
Posted by: GoBoSox420 | December 05, 2007 at 07:30 PM
if the sox were the ones that got cold feet, and now they are warm again, something will probably happen within the next 24 hours, good or bad
Posted by: 04Forever | December 05, 2007 at 07:56 PM
Phil Miller of the St. Paul Pioneer Press is also chiming in, saying that after talking to Twins GM Bill Smith, he's "more convinced than ever that Johan Santana will be traded next week, or next month, but not today or tomorrow."
Posted by: GoBoSox420 | December 05, 2007 at 08:04 PM
well, the outline for the deal can be completed as early as tomorrow if the deals are close and the sox were scared to commit. the hard part is the contract window, that will take a few days to hammer out. remember what it was like last year with matsuzaka, the deal went to the very last second, they announced he signed at 12:01, im sure this is going to take just as long, even though its been awhile already
Posted by: 04Forever | December 05, 2007 at 08:09 PM
any chance the yanks jump back into the johan mix?
Posted by: jpnyre | December 05, 2007 at 08:29 PM
The more I think about it, and I felt differently before this whole thing started, but I dont know if I would even trade Hughes or Ellsbury straight up for Santana at this point. This is like signing a big time free agent probably to the biggest contract ever to a pitcher, and giving up big time players to boot? How many people here would feel comfortable dishing out 7 years 130 million to any pitcher, even Johan. I dont think I would want to do that. At this rate, the redsox and yankees should just both back off and battle for for him during free agency. If the dodgers or angels or some other team comes out and gives a huge offer and locks him up, oh well. Let them mortgage the future on one player who they will have to pay big time.
Posted by: nrmax88 | December 05, 2007 at 08:36 PM
Meta,
Nah, the “Shoot, maybe we even see Kennedy traded to the BoSox for Elsbury or something crazy like that :)” part was a little joke (hence the smilely face) to just try and express that we have no clue what the Twins and BoSox might be thinking…
The other stuff was just because the way you had stated the previous reply. Replied just because of that. And yeah you can ignore people, but sometimes it just gets so old ~ esp when it gets to the point of like 90% of the thread being dedicated to them/people dealing with them… TypeKey should add an “ignore user” option to go along with the punctuation options you would like!
Posted by: darkstar1661 | December 05, 2007 at 09:27 PM
And Everyone,
Again, whats the rush? I know we are impatient, but if you were involved in the deal would you want to be?
The Twins could very well be thinking “well, very little has happened with the SPers so far, teams might get much more desperate when their second option is no longer an option”
While the BoSox may be thinking “well, lets see what the Hank’ees actually do first and maybe what others trade for the other star pitchers. If the demands are not met on the other guys, why should we sacrifice this much for Johan?”
…Johan is the biggest of the “named” pitchers rumored to be on the move ~ for him to be one of the first to be traded, before even the FA market starts drying up… well… I just don’t really see it unless the two teams are getting exactly what they want no matter the other variables…
Nrmax, 3 things:
1) Get him a year earlier...
2) Exclusive bargaining rights
3) You can sign him cheaper than if in a bidding war against a reckless owner with a cheeseburger, a case of BudLight, a hardon, and a wad of cash in his pocket…
Posted by: darkstar1661 | December 05, 2007 at 09:32 PM
you know, we havent gotten an update in like 5 minutes, i hope everything is ok and tim didnt collapse from stress
Posted by: 04Forever | December 05, 2007 at 10:06 PM
Some of the comments in here are absurd.
@nrmax88
Why do teams ever trade for players mid-season? Because teams want to win that year. Santana has incredible value for 2008 alone. Get that through your head. It's a bonus to be able to sign him long term without other teams bidding against you.
The whole contract situation being a sticking point is absurd, and patently false; it's simply posturing by the teams in play. As darkstar has been saying there are a number of clubs that can afford Santana. Would you rather have to Padilla's or Silva's than one Santana? That's all he'll cost to resign.
The Twins aren't going to cave, and I think they will wait for Bedard or Haren to be traded. Both which seem less likely to happen and as Spring approaches and Silva and Lohse sign absurd contracts, dealing for Santana will look more and more reasonable for teams who want to contend next year, and well for six after that.
Posted by: Pseudofool | December 05, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Smoltz - I was not siding with the other guy I think a lot of the stuff he was saying is obviously wrong. However, you have been off on some stuff as well. That was the one that jumped out the most to me. You could have tried to dodge it by simply saying the obvious that assuming total health for 5 starters is dumb to begin with. Yet you say not to count injury and even so I believe the original post was simply talking about starting rotation which does not necessarily mean just the 5 guys you start the season with, plus he was saying if they got Johan. Most of all I just posted a number because I rightly had guessed that your assertion that starters winning such an amount of games with Johan would not be quite as impossible as you were trying to make it out to be.
Posted by: walkoffblast | December 06, 2007 at 01:21 AM
walkoffblast - I completely understand what you are saying. And that's great if their rotation won 77 games, or whatever it is, but I know for a fact that not all of those wins came from the 5 people who were penciled in on Dec 5th. Which is why it is absurd for people to project that at this point in time.
But like I said, even if everyone one of the players he mentions stays healthy and in the rotation, you know how hard it is for 5 separate players to have identical or better records than the previous year? I won't deny you Beckett and Santana (because they are other-worldly). But with Schilling being a year older (never know what could happen both with injuries or just "losing" the life on certain pitches, and I live that every day with Smoltz and now Glavine), and Buchholz and Daisuke being so new to the MLB. You could argue that they could only get better with experience, but you could also argue that now that the league has video of them they will know what to expect. I was going to bring Nomo's 2nd season in the bigs up in my defense, but he actually did win more games his 2nd year (albeit in the NL). However, in 5 extra starts he won 3 more games than the previous year while losing 5 more.
So I understand that it could be done, and if the statement were made during Spring Training it probably would be okay...but Dec 5th? C'mon. None of this matters though, since this thread is so old you probably won't read it anyways.
Posted by: Smoltz's Beard | December 06, 2007 at 11:58 AM
With the passing of the New York Yankees deadline of Monday night with the Minnesota Twins to make a deal to trade for Johan Santana, I am not sure whether it is the right move for the Yankees to completely exit the Santana sweepstakes. I feel that in not making the trade the Yankees keep their young talent like Melky Cabrera and Phil Hughes and continue to build from within like they have started to do again over the last few years rather than go out and buy players like they had. Yet, there are three overwhelming factors which I believe make it the right choice to go out and complete the deal to bring Santana to New York.
The first reason why the Yankees should get back into talks and hopefully trade for Santana is because he is available and is truly the best pitcher in the game of baseball right now. He has been the best pitcher in baseball since the 2004 season and has accumulated an amazing career record of 93-44. He has won two Cy Youngs which help back up the notion that he has been the best pitcher since 2004, winning one in 2004 and the other in 2006. Yet, his dominance would help in other ways as well.
Not only are the Yankees getting the best pitcher in the game, but also the fact that it is pitching they are trading their valuable talent for and not a position/offensive player. The Yankees continually over the last few years have had pitching rotation problems, ravaged with injuries and doubts, so adding an ace like Santana will only help keep a rotation in order. Also, adding an ace to a staff will help in the long run. In recent years, winners in the playoffs and World Series have won games because of great pitching. Adding Santana will be an immense help come postseason time because he will be a pitcher that will go out and win the games that are important and crucial in postseason play.
The final reason why the Yankees need to obtain Santana is to block others from trading for him especially their rival, the Boston Red Sox. If the Yankees stay true to their word and don't get back involved with the Twins, then the Red Sox are next in line with the best offer and chance to trade for Santana. If the Red Sox, coming off their second championship in four years, are able to trade for him then they will hold a significant advantage of an amazing pitching with a ludicrous idea of three aces on one staff (Santana, Beckett, Schilling) combined with great hitting which will not only overpower the Yankees, but all of Major League Baseball.
The Yankees need to get back into talks with the Twins as soon as possible so they don't miss out on getting a great pitcher and at the same time stop the Red Sox from getting better. They are already offering a deal of Hughes/Cabrera/Marquez/Alberto Gonzalez which includes two major league ready players in Hughes and Cabrera which is what the Twins are looking to fill in holes for them in the outfield and the pitching rotation. This compares more favorably than the deals Boston is offering of Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson or Lester/Crisp/Lowrie/Masterson which only include one highly sought after young player who is major league ready in each deal (Ellsbury or Lester) as where the Yankees are offering two. If the Yankees hope to regain control of the AL East from the Red Sox and win their franchising leading 27th World Championship, they need to make this deal for Santana happen now before it is too late.
Posted by: | December 07, 2007 at 04:56 PM