Rockies Could Trade Holliday

I agree as I have been contemplating this for awhile too

The best I've come up with is a scenario in which the A's use a their payroll flexibility and truckload of prospects to trade for and then sign Holliday. I also thought that it might be cool to see Holliday go to the Phillies, Ryan Howard to the A's and prospects to the Rockies. Howard is eating and talking his way out of Philly and Holliday is too expensive for the Rockies, who are losing badly now anyway. Holliday would push Burrell to first in that situation.

This is an interesting idea. The Rockies are in a very strange place. WS last season, but a young & struggling team missing a lot of pieces, contemplating trading their superstar. Taking low-level prospects in return is interesting/strange as well. If they're so deep in upper-level talent, why does their starting outfield beside Holliday consist of a Hawpe/Taveras/Spilborghs/Podsednik-for-Pete's-sake rotation? Why do they have zero decent second basemen unless you count Barmes who they had almost totally written off? Why did they just release the guy they gave the 2B job to after ST? Where's all this elite talent on the field? Weird.

In my scenario Howard would DH a lot with Barton and Sweeney getting time at first and DH

Dunno about Thomas and `Cust though, Howard hasn't been too much better than the DH guys they've been using so far and Howard would give them a lot of DH kind of guys. Maybe it wasn't the best fit. I still do like the Holliday idea though, it would give them a much better offense to try to maintain their success.

sorry Thomas is just ***Starting** to hit.

P.S. I do see a Mark Ellis for Ian Stewart deal very possible.

Ari-

I agree that it's unlikely we're going to see Howard or Holliday go to Oakland, but Ellis for Stewart...no chance; especially if the Rox are serious about this Holliday thing. Atkins will be hot on his heels out the door and Stewart will be Colorado's third baseman. Stewart is too much of a prospect for Ellis anyway. Maybe a couple C listers with upside.

Heck, I'd be surprised if Baltimore could pry Stewart away for Roberts and he'd almost certainly be a more attractive option at this point (though I'm still holding out hope for a Roberts for Hector Gomez, Jhoulys Chacin, and some low-level third guy). Ellis might not get that much in return, but he could certainly generate some interest if the Rox think he'd put up better numbers than Barmes.

This whole Holliday thing is stupid, though. A team that just made the World Series last year and seems to be on the cusp of being very good for a long time...starts dumping players??? Bit early for rebuilding, no? I figured they'd be adding pieces, not trying to subtract. Maybe it's too late this year, but a core of Holliday, Atkins/Stewart, Hawpe, Ianetta, Dexter Fowler (coming soon to a stadium near you), Francis, Morales, Jimenez, Cook, and Corpas sounds pretty excellent. They could trade for Roberts and maybe one more mid-rotation type (Blanton?)... Once Morales and Jimenez start living up to their potential, that crew could compete with anyone.

I just don't get it.

Yeah definatley the Holliday thing, incredibly unlikely. The Ellis thing is not something I want because Ellis is one of my favorite A's, but I heard of a Deal a couple weeks age Ellis for Stewart.

But Milehigh for your little thing in their about Blanton, I doubt sincerly doubt it. As long as the A's keep winning (God Willing after that sweep from the tribe) Blanton will stay. And if the A's do trade him, I can guarentee Beane will ask for nothing less then Greg Renyolds. He'll step into that quickly growing Rotation.

You won't see Holliday in Oakland. I just can't see it. I do not remember the last time they made a deal for a big name guy.

I can see him going to Cleveland. Maybe Boston if they don't plan on keeping Manny after this year.

Thats interesting to say the least...would have been nice to see some possible suitor speculation though.

I'll make mine... Angels, Mariners, Red Sox should be the favorites in that order. They have the need and/or prospects to make it happen.

"I'll make mine... Angels, Mariners, Red Sox should be the favorites in that order. They have the need and/or prospects to make it happen."

I say no with the Halos. They have plenty of power in the outfield with Vlad and Hunter and still have Matthews under contract for quite a while. Every one of those guys, plus Anderson and Willits, is defensively superior. That, and the Halos would then have to dedicate a sack of cash to Holliday that would be better utilized on pitching and the Infield.

iamwallaman,

I am in TOTAL agreement!!!

Jocketty has done this in the past with Mark McGwire, Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds. He SHOULD do it now with Matt Holliday.

Dunn and KGJ are the ONLY two players who have been on the Reds for ALL SEVEN LOSING SEASONS!!! If Jocketty wants to instill a "culture of winning" then he HAS TO GET RID OF THE TWO LOSERS.

When company A goes into bankruptcy and compnay B buys company A the FIRST thing that usually happens is the management of company A is shown the door. Why? Because THEY are the ones who caused the problems and THEY are the ones who couldn't get the comopnay out of trouble. Dunn and KGJ have been the center of the "Home Run first" approach as far as the Offense is concerned and THAT HAS NOT WORKED!!!

The Reds NEED better hitters and guys who can play Defense. Dunn and KGJ ARE NOT THOSE PLAYERS.

Put Matt Holliday in Left and Jay Bruce in Right and the Defense IMMEDIATELY improves. Once that happens, Corey Patterson is no longer needed.

In Spring Training, Dusty Baker said THAT is why he wanted another CF, because Dunn and KGJ do not cover a lot of ground. With those two out of the way, then C Pat is not needed and a BETTER hitter could take his place.

So, dump Dunn and KGJ for whatever the Reds can get for them and then trade for Holliday. Getting rid of the twin albatrosses saves the Reds a minimum of $24 million dollars for 2009.

I say send Dunn to either the Rangers or Indians, that way he can DH, which is ALL he is good for. Dunn is originally from Houston, so with the Rangers he would be going home. Dunn's WIfe has said she doesn't want to get too far away from her parents, who live in Dayton, so Cleveland wouldn't be that far away.

As for KGJ, send him to the Devil Rays (I know they are now called the Rays but I am not politically correct). Tampa is close to KGJ's home in Orlando, so he would get to see his family more often. Plus, the Rays ARE in contention, something the Mariners can NOT say.

KGJ could be a draw for attendance and he could be on a winning team and DH some which would help to save his legs. Tampa has a strong farm system so whatever the Reds get from them could either be kept or flipped to Denver.

So, $18 million a year for five years for Holliday with a team option for a sixth year but with NO no trade clause should get the deal done.

Because Holliday at $18 million a year is a bargain compared to $15 million a year for Dunn.......

The Yankees wouldn't trade Hughes for Santana, but will for Holliday?

I don't think the Yankees are going to kill the top of their farm system for another outfielder.

Replace Hughes with Kennedy, one of (Tabata or Jackson), Marquez, and Masterson would probably be the tops of a Yankees offer (and I personally think that'd be too much).

While I think that the Holliday to the Reds talk makes some sense, the idea that Holliday would be a defensive upgrade on Dunn or Griff isn't true. Holliday brings one of the top 5 RH bats to every game but not much else. He is a defensive liability and doesn't run the bases well either.

While I think the A's are a long shot, the idea that Beane wouldn't add money if they are in it come July is also shortsighted. He's added payroll in the past for playoff runs; dye, durham, damon(offseason). There payroll is already under what it would normally be so they have some flexibility and Beane has already said he will add players if the team stays in it.

And for the cat who doesn't understand why the Rox would deal Atkins. The Rockies are CHEAP. Holliday is understandable, and they should trade him bc they are going to lose him anyway. They think Atkins is expendable bc of stewart but only a cheapskate would deal a proven hitter to make room for a guy who IF is as good as projected might be on par with the guy you already have. Add into the fact that even IF Stewart pans out you have a totally LH lineup with no balance. Going into last season it was common knowledge that ODub and Hurdle were idiots. An unbelievable second half made everyone forget about that fact. Now they are doing there best to return to the norm. Rather than add a few pieces like the DBacks did in the offseason they decided to shop at the dollar store clearance rack, now they are paying the price for that. There is a reason that the Rox have one of the worst fanbases in baseball, and its not the players. Its all the idiots that run the team into the ground.

ctown, I like your style, but my only question is, who would the reds give up to get Holliday? You have to start with Drew Stubbs and Homer Bailey. That would be the starting point for any deal. With Maybe Chris Valika, for a system dried of middle infielders. That deal looks good, but those past couple of good drafts will be gone. Are you sure you want to do that?

And plus, what if none of the other teams will be willing to give up any blu-chippers to get Dunn and KGJ. I like your Idea, and it makes sure he doesn't come to the AL West, but The reds need to be really smart about that deal.

Aww low level prospects.... I'd love to see the cardinals pick up solid corner outfielder for Reyes and Duncan...

ari,

As far as trading Dunn and KGJ goes, it doesn't really matter WHO they get back for them, the point is GETTING RID OF THEM!!! They have been THE centerpieces on teams that have been losers for seven straight years.

The Reds foolishly thought that just by having a couple of Home Run hitters in the middle of the line-up that they would automatically win. WRONG!!! Even when the Reds have HAD good Pitching, it has been the Offense which has let the team down. The second half of 2006 and the start of this season are PRIME examples.

Look at teams that have won the World Series the last fifty years and MORE of those teams led their respective Leagues in Runs scored and NOT in Home Runs. Just because the Reds can hit Home Runs in GASP doesn't make them special. Opposing teams can ALSO hit Home Runs in GASP.

Adding a HITTER like Holliday makes the Reds dangerous on the Road also. Dunn and KGJ can hit Home Runs at GASP but their production drops on the Road, where Home Runs are harder to hit and where the Reds have had losing records for at least the last seven years.

Dunn and KGJ are NOT good HITTERS. Each of them try and pull EVERY pitch and do not use the whole field. So, getting rid of them and their LARGE salaries would be addition by subtraction and thus it wouldn't really matter WHO the Reds got back in return.

As for what the Reds would give up to get Holliday, that I am not sure about. Maybe Dunn and Bailey or Dunn and Stubbs?

I say Dunn because he is going to be a Free Agent after the 2008 season and his agent is NOT Scott Boras. So, maybe a change of scenery for Dunn would do him good and his stats would improve. If they did, then maybe the Rockies would try and sign him. If they didn't, the Rockies could possibly get some Amateur Draft choices for him if he becomes a Free Agent. That way, they get a Minor League prospect from the Reds and a draft choice or two to help stock the farm system with.

The Reds would get the Right Handed bat they NEED and would lose Dunn (which they SHOULD do anyway) and get something back in return. If Bailey is included, it isn't really a big loss because he hasn't shown much in the Majors anyway and has still been inconsistent in the Minors this year.

As far as Bailey goes, I really think a change of scenery would be good for him also because of all the praise and pressure that has been put on him since he was drafted. Many Reds fans have annointed him The Saviour and thought of him as the Future of the team. Now that the Reds have Cueto and Volquez, Bailey isn't really needed.

What IS needed is a GOOD Right Handed power hitter which will help to balance out the line-up. The Reds have had losing records against Left Handed Pitching the last few years and THAT is because Dunn and KGJ are easy Outs.

This year, the Reds are AGAIN having trouble scoring against Left Handed Pitchers and on the Road. Against the Mets, Baker had Dunn sitting the bench when they faced Johan Santana. Baker has also dropped Dunn to seventh in the batting order, thus acknowleging that Dunn isn't that good.

So, based on these things, getting most ANYTING for Dunn while losing his salary would be a plus. Same for the injury prone KGJ.

if i was jocketty id offer colorado stubbs , ( can always sign a free agent cf ) , homer bailey ( with cueto , volquez , thompson and others in the minors he wont be missed to much ) , valaika ( i see frazier ending up being the better player ) , and another low level prospect or 2 i think its a no brainer

lineup

free agent cf or someone from trade
keppinger ss
holliday lf
votto 1b
phillips 2b
bruce rf
ee 3b
free agent catcher

^ after trading griffey and dunn for whatever

rotation
harang
volquez
arroyo
cueto
thompson

ctownboy, you are baseball"guru" under a different name, arent ya? I know he claimed to live in Cincy or something…

Nrmax, you around? What do you think man?

Anyway, the Reds should not trade Dunn ~ they cant replace that kind of production for whats really a rather cheap cost. And they probably realize this, hence the reason they didnt trade him to Cleveland for Westbrook like was said to be a done deal. Griffey can be dealt after he hits his landmark, Dunn shouldnt be...

"Darkstar, Is everything all right??

Between the posts you have here and the one on the Clemens link it sounds a lot like... well, exactly what I said 3 days ago. And if I recall you took great issue with almost every detail."

...humm, you lost me...

I had a conversation with you the other day about Cleveland's offense, but the statements I made here and in the Clemens thread hardly sound like those you had made. Well, unless you are referring to the “bit-player” statement ~ but there is gigantic difference between the two situations so I cant imagine that’s what you meant…

"You won't see Holliday in Oakland. I just can't see it. I do not remember the last time they made a deal for a big name guy."

That'd be back in the early aughts when Jermaine Dye, Johnny Damon, Ray Durham were big-time deadline acquisitions. Little known fact, Mark Ellis was also acquired in the Damon deal.

Speaking of Ellis, he's not going for Ian Stewart, who is 100% blocked by Atkins and has had his trade value completely torpedoed by Rockies (mis-)management. Ellis will either: Resign with the A's at a team-friendly rate because he's underrated; be offered arbitration and accept (I THINK he's got one more arb year, not too sure on that); be traded for a B+ prospect, which Stewart no longer is.

“I think I sense a touch of sarcasm or maybe you misremember.”

Nah, it wasn’t sarcastic in the least ~ Cleveland and Houston really have next to nothing in common. They are two teams with completely different philosophies, game plans, structure, focus, etc…

And I didn’t misremember anything ~ my memories actually rather fantastic. You were the person with like 4 posts detailing how Cleveland should have signed (or I guess targeted since not all were FA) such guys as Melvin Mora, Emil Brown, Jorge Cantu and Pedro Feliz because you don’t think the team is any good and these guys would have been some kind of difference makers... I think it was in a thread talking about how the team nearly traded Cliff Lee to Arizona; not 100% on that part of it though because there are so many.

"While I think that the Holliday to the Reds talk makes some sense, the idea that Holliday would be a defensive upgrade on Dunn or Griff isn't true. Holliday brings one of the top 5 RH bats to every game but not much else. He is a defensive liability and doesn't run the bases well either."

Actually, Matt Holliday was the 8th best left fielder in the MLB last year according to the Fielding Bible at +9. Adam Dunn the second worst left fielder in the MLB at a -29. So Holliday would be a huge defensive upgrade.

It surprised me to find that, because it seems like every time I watch Holliday play defense, he's misjudging a fly ball.

"With Encarnacion (6.5), Looper (5.5), Isringhausen (8.0) and Izturis (3.0) all coming off the payroll this off-season for a combined payroll drop of about $23,000,000 there is no financial reason the Cardinals couldn't go after Holliday. He'd be the impact bat needed behind Albert for protection in the lineup and would finally fill the defensive void that has been left field.
How would they go about getting him?
Obviously Duncan and Reyes are the two leading candidates to be traded but it would obviously take far more than these two, I imagine Bryan Anderson would attract some attention, he's one of the top catching prospects around and is solidly blocked by Molina within the organization, both Pete Kozma and Jose Martinez are good gloves at short and would help the Rockies out in the long term, furthermore, Joe Mather showed he can hit major league pitching at league minimum salary, he could also elicit a response."

You do know Holliday isn't a free agent until after next year. Right?

The mets don't have anything in the way of finished prospects who are close to major league ready, But they have a ton of high upside raw guys in the high minors. Guys like rueben tejada, francisco pena, juan lagares, and scott moviel are all in the mold of the main pieces of the santana trade. All of these guys are young, but have GREAT tools. If the article is correct and this is the type of player the rox are looking for, The mets 17 and 18 year old kids in the low minors are as developed as any. The thing they lack is high minors guys ready to contribute right now.

I just don't see it happening, even though they are cheapskates, Rox management has figured out that winning makes them more money. Even though they are way back in the standings today, Holliday is the type of franchise player that doesn't come around very often and they will get hot sooner or later. I see them letting Spilborghs, who has a little power, take over center and dumping the contracts of easily replaced players like Torrealba, Vizcaino and Corpas way before doing something stupid like trading Holliday when their farm system is already stacked.

benjoua -- darkstar pretty much makes the point I was going to make about Stewart. The reason I think Colorado mismanaged his career is that if a guy is never going to get a chance in your organization, you trade him early on when his potential is max value. Now that he's passed the peak of his prospect-hype and failed to progress toward that potential since then, his value is low. If he was going to get a chance, they long ago missed the boat on trading Atkins or Helton. I'm guessing you know a lot more about the Rockies than I do, but my impression has been that they didn't really commit to giving him a real chance at 2B.

(and Tim, in case you're this deep into this post, let me add my voice to the multitude getting irritated at Typekey randomly logging me out while I'm typing a comment even though I just logged in 2 minutes ago)

This will take time to give all of the comments due response, but let's start with gogopalehoes...

At the topm you suggested sending Holliday to Philly for Howard to go to Oakland for blah, blah, blah to go to Colorado. So you're telling me the Oakland A's are going to acquire their 5th 1st baseman and 4th if they trade Barton for another 1st baseman?!

Seriously, you talk about me being full of crap, it might be the dumbest suggesting I've heard... So you think Oakland new stadium or not is going to acquire the most overrated player in terms of talent to expected demanded dollar figure in baseball.

I mean the guy wants 20MM a year for 10 years and they sent out Giambi, Damon, Tejada, etc. before ever paying them top dollar and now they're going to acquire a guy who has no position and renders yet another guy like Thomas or Sweeney useless?

I mean Cust doesn't even belong in LF, he's a clown and you think they'd take Howard over Holliday? I'd say it's far more likely the A's would acquire Holliday and forget the Howard deal... The only place Howard is going is to New York probably the Mets, but worst case the Yankees to fill one of those voids in the offseason or maybe before.

Have you looked at Howard's numbers?! He's the only guy that doesn't sniff 80 XBHs with 50 HRs, how do you have 20-some doubles with 50+ HRs?! That tells me that he is lazy on the bases to go with his 200 SOs/year.

I think you got it about right Hizilla, but I'd move Cook when he's pitching well and make it a complete re-building effort if you're moving Helton and Holliday... I'd also trade Fuentes for a young arm that can become the closer... With the Yankees needing a lefty, maybe they'll part with a couple young righties who have been floating between AAA and the bigs...

Before you start talking crap about me listing the whole farm system, go look for yourself... I'd put this group up against all but maybe 5 farm systems in baseball... I've done a lot of looking around and not many teams can match the number of 30 HR, 40-40, 5-tool, 50 SB guys and dominating pitchers that the Mariners have in their system. If you look at some of the pitchers and see a few in the low 4.00 to high 3.00 ERA, it's because these guys are playing in leagues where they consider ERAs to be as much as 1-1.5 runs per 9 innings higher than they would be... The High Desert Mavericks play in a league where Chris Tillman the beloved pitcher in the Bedard trade had a high 4.00 ERA bordering on 5.00, so that should be a good indication of how good the rest of these guys are that have accrued lower stats!

What was the point of that long list of names? It gives no context for level, age, environment, etc ... I'm sure every fan of every team could do something similar.

(FWIW, Baseball Prospectus ranked Seattle 23rd before the season so not everyone is in love with them. I'll rely on the people paid to know *every* system.)

"As for AriGoldisaG, how do you come up with the Mariners have a thin system?! Have you looked at the numbers for the guys there or do you just regurgitate what everyone else says?! Check out the numbers and you'll see there are pitchers and hitters DOMINATING at EVERY LEVEL and there is depth at ALL positions... Then you figure in the guys that are still finding their stroke like Mangini, who was supposed to be a 1st rounder and you see that depth is not an issue... The guys performing on a high level aren't even the cream of the crop, and it's far too long into the season for it to be a matter of a hot spell or two... Here's a list of guys that you should look at:

By the way the link is under rosters on the Mariners page that is linked to MLB.com... Go to minor league affiliates and then select stats, it makes you seem more credible when you do the research and then actually say something that is based in fact...

C - Rob Johnson, Adam Moore, Travis Scott, Luis Oliveros

1B - Bryan LaHair, Thomas Hubbard, Johan Limonta

2B - Yung Chi Chen, Luis Valbuena, Christopher Minaker, Edilio Colina

SS - Carlos Triunfel, Oswaldo Navarro

3B - Matt Tuiasosopo, Matt Mangini

OF - Jeremy Reed, Victor Diaz, Michael Saunders, Carlos Peguero, James McOwen, Greg Halman, Gavin Dickey, Daniel Carroll

SP - Ryan Feierabend, Phillippe Aumont, Juan Ramirez, Michael Pineda, Donald Hume, Nathan Adcock, Chris Jakubauskus, Rich Dorman, Doug Fister, Kyle Parker, Nicholas Hill, Ricky Orta

RP - Eric O'Flaherty, Scott Shoemaker, Jon Huber, Jake Woods, Cesar Jimenez, Travis Chick, Jason Mackintosh, Mumba Rivera, Craig James, Michael Wagner, Alfredo Venegas, Julio Santiago, Keith Meyer, Jacob Wild, Ryan Moorer, Travis Mortimore, Bryan Harris, Shawn Kelley

Wow guru I even thought you might live up to your name. The mariners sytem sucks B@ll$. BA ranked them at like 17 (?) somewhere around there. Where as the other rumor gogo said about the A's getting Holliday, they won't do it, but at least they could. They are ranked at #2 by BA and BP. You're more like BaseballDumba$$ not baseball guru.

)

"(FWIW, Baseball Prospectus ranked Seattle 23rd before the season so not everyone is in love with them. I'll rely on the people paid to know *every* system.)"

Thanks Joe. Guru you ought to change your name. Seriously, your an idiot. 23 in Prospectus is even worse then BA's 17 or whatever.

Sorry bout that.

First off, those guys also were the ones saying Detroit would run away with the Central, easy to go by name recognition and status... The fact is that there are a lot of surprises this offseason and before they traded for Bedard they were ranked really high, since then they've promoted one catcher which Travis Scott has shown better number thus far at similar stops as to what Clement did as a similar lefty hitting catcher before last season.

They promoted an outfielder and brought in Victor Diaz who's been moved too frequently to get comfortable... That would be one of the guys mentioned, then you have Jakubauskus who is pitching lights out at AA and AAA... So what if he's 29, doesn't mean there isn't talent and when the guy is in the high 1.00 low 2.00 ERA that's not luck that got him there over the last 6 weeks! Okay so 7 out of 53 guys listed were going to be 27 or older, which turning 27 during the season makes them 26 by baseball standards, if you want to be technical, since you are going off "what scouts say." So those guys are still considered prospects...

As for the notion that these are just grabbing guys without cross referencing, I did corss reference age and ability and numbers and blah, blah, blah... I just saved you the work of screening, it was merely a list of guys to look at yourselves, not a fully career rundown, but since that's what you want then here's why they make the list...

By the way, how do these so-called-experts rank systems?! Is it based on how polished the upper tier is, how unpolished the raw talent is, the natural abilities, purely a statistical basis, is it on age, or is it how well someone can project to helping your team win?!

Are these guys/girls experts because they went to school for it, because they are a past executive, or because they took the time to open a website and say they know all?! Wow, great witness for the defense! "I'd like to call the a self-proclaimed expert to refute the testimony of the other self-proclaimed expert!" is commonly referred to as he-said-she-said...

Find me someone who has proven knowledge of farm systems and get me his quote on their rankings, then we'll talk about what he considers the best farm system or most marketable for a trade... There was a time when no one gave two sh*ts about Balentien, he was doing what Peguero is doing with striking out 50 times for every 5 walks, now he's almost 50-50 with walks to strikeouts, more like 40-60, but the evolution is taking place with some of these kids and those are the players the Mariners will hold onto, they don't need 200 great players to make a trade just 4 and if you are saying you can't pull 4 names off those lists that someone wants, then you are full of crap!

Hey Not Joe Morgan, just for clarity, were you talking about the catcher that's hitting .422 with a .447 OBP, while putting up a .958 OPS, and only turns 25 next month or the catcher that just turned 24 and is hitting .302 with a .380 OBP and only 11 SO in 137 plate appearances while providing an .833 OPS?! Just wondering?! So they've been at AAA because of a guy named Rob Johnson one of the best defense catchers in the minors, Jeff Clement one of the best catching prospects in the country, and one of the best 1-2 punches in major league baseball with Kenji Johjima and Jamie Burke, who threw out at or around a combined 40% of base stealers while both hitting a combined like .290-ish with 15 HRs and 73 RBIs. Where were they going to put those guys and now they have Travis Scott pushing for AA and they've got the draft around the corner?! You are a stupid-stupid man and you debate no better than Darkstar! I mean what in the world possesses you to call out two guys hitting a combined .340-ish with a .400 OBP and both are 24 or younger by scouting ages?! Why don't you blame crop circles on aliens while you're at it and not the high school kids and the keg they drank and Johnny-Bobby's house!

I was referring to this year though where he had a 39-61 BB to KO ration, is the one percent that big an arguing point?! I thought you might just give that to me, you know looking for a crumb to argue about is a little petty! Now thr33nil, you know why I'm so exacting with my comments!

First, strong use of exclamation points. I applaud your enthusiasm.

Second, fractions were my major in college; I'm certain that your only comeback if you actually do the math is "well, I was close enough". If you'd like to step back from silly insults, I'll point out that you said "he's almost 50-50 with walks to strikeouts, more like 40-60" when it was actually even less than that. I would further tell you that, even if you didn't try to tweak the numbers, your sample size still renders this irrelevant and an unbiased person would acknowledge he was at 105/54 in a full season last year. Balentien has never shown himself to be a 1.5/1 K/BB player regardless of what a month's worth of data may tell you. And that's not even a knock on Balentien, he looks like he's going to be a really good player, but your exaggerations and misrepresentations are just ridiculous.

(And I was referring to the 25 year old in his 5th AA season hitting over .400 in less than 50 PAs. Are you the guy who goes nuts on an opening day HR because the player is on pace for 162? Sample sizes, kiddo. Sample sizes.)

“Clearly fractions were not your strong point since you think 7/18 is not close to 8/20, hmmm...”

…Ok, just wanted to point out that this one really made me chuckle since its coming from a “guru” who once said:
“He'll be good for 40-50 bombs, how much does that go for?! Oh and based on Ibanez having 5 more hits and 8 more at-bats, if Sexson goes 5 for his next 8, he'll be hitting .306, so it's still early.”
(can be found here ~ http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/04/frank-thomas-ru.html )

…At the time of course, Sexson had 15 H in 69 AB for a .217 BA. Factoring it as though the 5 for 8 came true, we see 20 H in 77 AB ~ a .260 batting average...

So to that, one would be inclined to reply with
“Clearly fractions were not your strong point since you think” 20/77 is equal to .306 “guru”…

Lastly,
“not many teams can match the number of 30 HR, 40-40, 5-tool, 50 SB guys and dominating pitchers that the Mariners have in their system.”

…You do realize that not a single player anywhere in the entire system hit 30 HR, right? Infact, only one guy in the entire system even hit more than 25 dingers ~ that would be Beltre with 26… Also, only two players anywhere hit as many as 40 2B ~ that would again be Beltre and Bryan Lahair (a DH-type who produced those 46 2B with a whole 12 HR to go with it). But how about 50 SB? …Zero… Well, how about 40 SB then? …Zero… Well, how about 35 SB then? Ding, ding, ding ~ we have a winner ~ ONE, Ichiro with 37 total… So where exactly are all these “30 HR, 40-40, 5-tool, 50 SB” players?

“guru”, word of advice ~ stop. Every time you open your mouth all you do is make yourself look like a complete jackass. Whats the point of continuing to do it over and over again? I mean, its really pitiful man…

"First off guru, you need to shut your face, ok. The scouts go and watch these kids play and measure them on the 20-80 scale.

The whole point not joe and I are trying to get you to understand is that the guys you're talking about in the minds of scouts aren't prospects anymore. They are Miner League vetern travelmen. Even in your 24 almost 25 year old catcher, they probably consider him a Minor League vet.

Don't ask me why it is how they grade the stuff. Now just shut up, go to sleep, and start posting on a different collum."

Hey DumbA$$ SHUT THE FUK UP!!!!!!!!!!

DO YOU NOTICE HOW NO ONE LIKES WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY BECAUSE EVERTHING THAT COMES OUT OF YOUR MOUTH, IS YOU TRYING TO START AN ARGUMENT!

GIVE IT UP! THE MARINERS SYSTEM SUCKS! YOU ARE ONE OF THE DUMBEST PEOPLE POSTING ON THIS WEBSITE! NOW STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR A$$ AND GO AWAY!

AriGoldisaG... Way to talk in all caps you little b*tch, maybe if you weren't such a p*ssy, you wouldn't be talking all hard on the website, you think that I'm going to leave because you want that you chunk of foreskin, you don't offer anything in the way of credible intelligence, you are like an amoeba of sh*t, no ability to communicate, not worth anything, and survives indefinitely as neither a help or a harm to the world around it...

You are the definition of causal indifference... Let me break it down in crayolan for you... The more you talk, the less I give a sh*t what you say... You are an immature, temper tantrum having, menapausal b*tch that gives a bad name to spineless men everywhere... So when you are done being on bottom, maybe then you can go out on the streets and man up to someone that doesn't see your hardcore words on the screen and instead can kick 7-shades of sh*t out of you!

guru, spare us the mariner prospects, please