Heyman's Latest: Bay, Rivera, Chacon

I don't think the Cards are giving up Rasmus...

How about Duncan/Reyes/Anderson for Bay?

"How is it hard to get a guy hitting .221/.265/.377 in 35 games half way into the season? Add to it he played 14 games last year because of a broken leg. How hard can it be to get him? Are the Angels delusional?"

To the contrary, the Angels are doing the smart thing. Rivera's value is in the toilet because of his lack of playing time. That has changed recently as they have benched GMJ in favor of Rivera because they realize that 1) they need to rebuild some value and 2) Rivera is the better hitter anyway. Rivera has played in 35 games, but has averaged just over 2 AB a game, which is nowhere near what he should be getting. He has absolutely raked in the last 7, 14 and 28 days, despite only really getting regular time over the past week and a half.

Getting Rasmus would be more than okay for the Pirates. He would give them a cornerstone type of outfielder that could join McCutchen, Pearce, Doumit, Alvarez, Walker, McLouth, etc. and make that team potentially quite dangerous in the future.

That's exactly why he isn't going anywhere. There is just no way that the Cardinals would be willing to give up such a potentially special player to another team in their division.

I think that a package surrounding around Jaime Garcia would be the most likely solution. He's been moving up prospect boards pretty quickly since bouncing from injuries last year. Something like Garcia, Reyes and Duncan could probably work. Bryan Anderson could work too but with Doumit already at catcher and Rasmus as the only other quality hitting prospect in the organization (Wallace isn't available to trade), I think it would make more sense for Pittsburgh to persue pitching.

"He's also a free agent and would just be a rental."

Yet another reason the Angels would be stupid to sell low on him.

"He's played 49 games in the last 2 seasons and missed time to a broken leg which is a big injury."

His lack of time this year has been due to the presence of both GMJ and Torii Hunter, who make far more money than he does. As for his leg, he has fully recovered.

"I know Rivera isn't a scrub but it's not like he's Jason Bay."

Actually, in 2006, Rivera's numbers compared quite well with Bay, and he had less of a propensity to strikeout while being a better, more versatile defensive player. I think people forget that Rivera is a very competent center fielder

Can we now put McCourt into the Angelos category as owners who interfere far too often in baseball operations? Let the baseball people make decisions - stop pretending to be a GM.

Also, how does Chacon win in arbitration? I don't remember for sure but didn't Spree lose his dollars and face a year long suspension for choking PJ? Also, Heyman says that Chacon will probably prevail because this was his only bad act this year. How about his performance on the field? That was one bad act after another.

Chacon is a chump. I don't care what was said - you are never justified behaving like he did.

"Can we now put McCourt into the Angelos category as owners who interfere far too often in baseball operations?"

In case you are too young to remember history, Ted Turner's involvement with the operation of the Braves saved them and turned them into the juggernaut they became.

McCourt's first and foremost goal is to fill up the stadium and make money on the team and he knows that the number one way to alienate the fans in L.A. is to piss away young talent. The backlash from the Piazza trade is not forgotten, and probably never will be.

"Yet another reason the Angels would be stupid to sell low on him."
It's not as if they were going to get a top 10 prospect like the Mets' Martinez or Cards' Rasmus. He's not even going to be a Type B free agent unless someone goes down and he begins to play everyday and produces.

"His lack of time this year has been due to the presence of both GMJ and Torii Hunter, who make far more money than he does. As for his leg, he has fully recovered."
GMJ and Hunter playing more doesn't mean anything to other GMs. They will judge him by what he's done in the little time he's given and not what he's capable of.

"Actually, in 2006, Rivera's numbers compared quite well with Bay, and he had less of a propensity to strikeout while being a better, more versatile defensive player."
That's a riot. Bay had an OPS+ of 138 in 2006. Rivera had a 126 OPS+. The year before, Bay had a 150 OPS+ in 162 games. Rivera's was 104+. In his career, Rivera has been a slightly above average offensive player. He had a good season in 2006 but that's really been it.

"I think people forget that Rivera is a very competent center fielder"
Wrong. In his career, his FP, Rfg, and Rf9 have been below league average as a CF. He's slightly above average as a corner OF. That is his only advantage on Bay.

"GMJ and Hunter playing more doesn't mean anything to other GMs. They will judge him by what he's done in the little time he's given and not what he's capable of."

You are making my point for me.

"Wrong. In his career, his FP, Rfg, and Rf9 have been below league average as a CF. He's slightly above average as a corner OF. That is his only advantage on Bay."

Rather small sample size. The fact is, he can play the position competently in a pinch, which Bay cannot.

"Rivera is a free agent."

A free agent the Angels can sign if they want.

"Rather small sample size. The fact is, he can play the position competently in a pinch, which Bay cannot. "

Why do you think it's a small sample size? He's made for the corners. He's not an everyday CF and would only play there if no one else on the team could. Again, that's his only advantage over Bay. He's not the hitter that Bay is.

"A free agent the Angels can sign if they want."

Sounds like something the Angels would do: sign an average veteran to block a prospect until his value has diminished into nothing (Mathis, McPherson).

Jason Bay has been one of the most overrated players in the league the past 2 seasons. He's an okay right handed hitter who doesn't draw walks or steal bases like he used to. There's no way the Cards will deal Rasmus for Bay. For Holliday, yes, but not for a nondescript hitter that's hit his peak.

As for Rivera, I can definitely see him being shipped to the Mets for a so-so prospect. Omar traded for him once before (in Montreal) and allegedly still believes Juan's tool.

That wouldn't be a bad trade Will, except why would the Pirates trade for Hudson when he's gone at the end of the year. Aside from that, I just don't see the new front office trading for players already in the majors (Tracy, Owings, and Hudson)

Bay essentially played on one leg last year. He's got a 143 OPS+ this year, which is in the range of his 2004-2006 years. How is he overrated again?

Comparing him to Juan Rivera is an insult. I'm not trying to be Harry Homer and say that we should start working on his Hall of Fame bust, but if Bay played for the Yankees or Red Sox his profile would be a LOT higher.

"reyes and duncan arent crap, they just need to move on, plus garcia is a real prospect. really if we acquire bay than duncan would have to go. duncan and garcia for bay sounds good."

Yeah sounds good if you're a Cards fan. Duncam and Reyes have had plenty of chances and no way to the Pirates bank their future on the "change of scenery" theory. These teams do not match up. Pirates would want Rasmus and the Cards would never trade them move on.

"Jason Bay has been one of the most overrated players in the league the past 2 seasons. He's an okay right handed hitter who doesn't draw walks or steal bases like he used to. There's no way the Cards will deal Rasmus for Bay. For Holliday, yes, but not for a nondescript hitter that's hit his peak."

Wow is that and asanine and ignorant statement. Check your facts before you post something so idiotic and flat out untrue. Look up Bays walk totals. He has always done that well. D Sanchez said the rest in his post. Juam Rivera couldn't hold Bay's jock and contrary to popular belief he has had plenty of chances. How old is Rivera anyway?

"Comparing him to Juan Rivera is an insult. I'm not trying to be Harry Homer and say that we should start working on his Hall of Fame bust, but if Bay played for the Yankees or Red Sox his profile would be a LOT higher."

I don't think we are comparing him to Rivera, rather Rivera to him as a player he could well be the poor man's version of. I actually think Bay is an underrated player.

"Pittsburgh has given themselves a ton of leverage by telling everyone they think they can compete with the team they have."

If I tell everyone I think I'm the next Bill Gates, will that give me a ton of leverage...or will people just quietly laugh behind my backs?

The Cards and Pirates can match up without Rasmus; StL has several outfielders with upside (Stavinoha, Mather, Jay, Robinson) and nowhere to put them. They also have a number of intriguing pitchers that could help, though I suspect they'll be reluctant to give up on the only lefthanded starter of note they have (Garcia).

I imagine if St. Louis makes a deal, they'll want Marte as well. John Jay, Stavinoha, David Freese (or Craig), PJ Walters, Reyes, Boggs and Jason Motte would be a decent haul. All of those guys are in the upper half of the farm system, and therefore close to contributing. Upper level prospects always hold more value, and a few of those guys could step in right away.

Pittsburgh does not need any more outfielders. The only reason we want Rasmus is because he has so much potential. Even if we trade Bay and Nady, we should still be able to put a respectable outfield out there next year.

The Pirates and Cardinals do not match up without Rasmus and a trade will never be done without him.

""The Pirates and Cardinals do not match up without Rasmus and a trade will never be done without him.""

Thats not true at all. There are options in the Cards system that could easily match up to the Pirates at almost any position. The problem is, if the Pirates are expecting a Rasmus type prospect from another team, they'll never get it. People are talking as if Bay is one of the best OF in the game and he isn't. There are just as good of options on the FA market this offseason.

Most people saying these teams would never match up are going off preseason ratings of prospects. The Cards system ranked in the middle of the pack prior to the start of this season, but we're probably in the top 10 easily now. Lots of OF and SP prospects with quite a bit of potential. Garcia, Mortenson, Todd, Boggs, Motte, Anderson, Jay, Robinson, Stavinoha, Mather, Kozma, Craig, Freese. A deal of Garcia, Mortenson, and Jay would probalby get it done, and the Cards would be giving up A LOT. Then their are other players like Duncan and Reyes that still have limited trade value that could be throw ins if the deal was close.

"The problem is, if the Pirates are expecting a Rasmus type prospect from another team, they'll never get it. People are talking as if Bay is one of the best OF in the game and he isn't. There are just as good of options on the FA market this offseason."

Really!?
2008 - .908 OPS-7th among MLB OF
2007 - injury plagued and only subpar season of his career
2006 - .928 OPS-6th among MLB OF
2005- .961 OPS-2nd among MLB OF
2004 - .908 OPS - ROY

I'm not sure how you categorize someons as "one of the best OF in the game" but you'd be hardpressed to find more than a handful of OF that have matched Bay's consistency. And your comments about FA in the off season doesn't make sense for 2 reasons:
1) as I've already pointed out Bay is one of the best OF in MLB so there will not be a lot of better options than him and 2) the Cards want to compete this year and Larussa wants them to make a move. If they don't they will be watching the post season from home. It's amazing to me how teams place such a value today on their prospects. For every Longoria and Braun, there is a Bullington and Drew Henson. If you have a chance to win now you have to step up and go for it.

I'm a Pirates fan and we too overvalue our prospects.

"Pittsburgh does not need any more outfielders. The only reason we want Rasmus is because he has so much potential. Even if we trade Bay and Nady, we should still be able to put a respectable outfield out there next year."

No offense meant 82 but I cringe when I hear Pirate fans say we don't need OF even if we trade Bay and Nady. We act like McCutchen and Pearce are going to step on the field and automatically put up league average totals at minimum even though they have not exactly tore through AAA this year. After those two we have nothing worth mentioning in the OF and please don't anyone post Romak as an interesting prospect. Point is the Pirates need pitching but they need depth everywhere and we are more than a couple of pieces from contention. This corp of players can not get it done. You can't just sit back and say if only Gorzo and Snell didn't have down years. Well, what if in 2007 Bay, Duke, Maholm and Paulino didn't have down years. And oh what if in 2006 Duke, Perez and Jack Wilson didn't have down years. Point is, every year some players are going to have down years and the Pirates don't have enough depth anywhere to overcome it. We are not going to contend for anything next year with this corp except a top 10 draft pick.