Yankees Rumors: Mussina, Giambi, Teixeira

Considering the catching market, relying on a healthy and productive Jorge Posada is still a better bet than relying on a healthy and productive Pudge or Varitek.

People can bemoan the contract, but the fact remains that the Yankees are still much better off with Posada, risk and all, than without him.

The whole catching situation is going to get very interesting. Both the Yankees and Red Sox are relying on luck and one might get away with it but probably not both. The Rangers have to be sitting there licking their chops waiting for one or both of the evil empires to get desperate and severely over-pay for the likes of Laird or Saltalamachia.

i don't know why there hasn't been any talk of the Yanks being interested in the Rangers' catching surplus. Why not offer a package like Ian Kennedy and Ross Ohlendorf, both pitchers, for Saltalamacchia. Salty could play first or bat DH, while Posada catches, and then be behind the dish on days off, until Posada calls it a career as a backstop. At which time, Salty would take over the reigns, be a stop gap, or just be too good a hitter to move off first; a nice problem to have. As a 1B, Salty could be a poor man's Tex next season.

I think the Pirates would be really pissed if we offered Texas Ohlendorf.

NJM - You're right...but it may lead to a whole new cost effective way to trade. Trade players from other teams! lol

Also to aj and the others on here...Molina, although not a good hitter, has one of the best arms in the league. We also have Cervelli waiting in the wings...and Romine & Montero in AA next year. If we're going to trade young pitching, I doubt it will be for catching...unless Jorge's shoulder is just toast.

As for Giambi, he hit less than 2 bills with RISP, can't play D and is an injury waiting to happen. No thanx!

yeah, it is j time to move on from Giambino, even if we don't acquire Teixeira.

I also would most definitely live with Molina's offense (remember when he was leading teh team in doubles before he got cold) when he is putting up 50%cs and working well with pitchers

I can understand the sentiment of having Giambi move on, and he is an example of the player that they want to move away from, but I just don't see that many options out there for 1B. They already said they don't want the whole Damon/Matsui/Posada thing at 1B.

They are in a tight spot without signing Tex.

"Posada's either not going to have the arm to spend any significant time at catcher, or he'll be catching full time. I don't think it's likely that it'll fall anywhere in between."

i agree with you completely but this poses another question. if he cant throw, how well can he even hit? sure hell still have his good eye but his power would be down and therefore pitchers will challenge him more. if he cant throw he might not hit well, and that will be a bigger problem.

i belive the yankees wont make much of a deal if mussina retire.i thinks its a good idea if the yankees get a power arm like tim lincecum from the giants.that will get them a good line wang,joba and tim starting 3 its a good idea i mean tim lincecum is young he has a power arm and hes cheap
And on the giambi deal i dont think the ynkees will care that much remember the yankees are thinking about moving jeter to 1B by the 2010 season so i belive thats why they are not going all out on tex.

And something the yankees should think about is talking to the mets about beltran everybody knows the mets need bullmen help and the yankees have that to offer so is something to think about

What happens if a player doesn't file for free agency? Are they forced into retirement or how does it work?

"But that's what I'm saying. The Yanks are relying on a bit of luck. What if Posada really is done as a Catcher? Bit of a problem, don't you think?"

I wouldn't say it's relying on luck any more so than with any other decision. Posada and his surgeon both feel that he'll be able to catch next year, so you have to assume that will be the case until you have reason to believe otherwise.

Yes, it is, but right now the indications from Posada and his surgeon are that he will be able to catch.

He starts throwing in December, so somewhere around January/February they should have a pretty good idea of what shape he'll be in, which still leaves time for a trade. There aren't any good free agent options, so free agent availability isn't a concern.

"i agree with you completely but this poses another question. if he cant throw, how well can he even hit? sure hell still have his good eye but his power would be down and therefore pitchers will challenge him more. if he cant throw he might not hit well, and that will be a bigger problem."

Who knows. Throwing and hitting are completely different arm motions. We'll find out when he rehabs, but so far there hasn't been much concern about his hitting ability.

Jeff Bagwell's shoulder barely let him play first his last few seasons, yet he still hit well. Pujols has a bad throwing elbow which forced him to first base, yet he's still one of the best hitters in the game. You really can't judge someone's hitting ability by their throwing ability.

I definitely agree that Molina can't be brought back. His defense is great but he simply holds no value as a hitter, and there are a good deal of catchers in the league who are similar players to him.

I really think the Yankees need to address the outfield though. Damon is good in left, and Nady in fine in right, but Melky and Gardner shouldn't be depended on to play center full time. Bringing in a guy like Cameron, DeJesus or even Randy Winn. The young guy can get some at bats but they really shouldn't be depended on.

"Yanks should just resign Pudge and call it a day. Pudge's glove is much more important to me than his bat.tart Why trade prospects for a catcher when you have a viable free agent option?"

As a Yankee, Pudge hit about as well as Molina. As a Tiger, he had about one good month and was terrible the rest of the season. His defense wasn't as good as Molina's, and the Yankee pitchers really didn't like working with him. There's no advantage to him.

"Also, we mave Montero and Romine who figures to at least start their mlb careers of as a catchers who should be ready by 2010 or 2011."

2011 more likely. They both played A ball this year. Montero has the hitting skills to move fast, but needs a lot of work defensively. Romine leans the opposite.

"Throwing and hitting are completely different arm motions"

yeah but it was clearly. affecting him this season.

"why would texas want Ian Kennedy to pitch"

because they need all the pitching they can get.

The problem is that Molina isn't a weak bat, he's a terrifically awful bat. A .263 OBP can't be carried anywhere. For all the deserved Varitek mockery, he was still 50 points above Molina. 50 points. And he sucked in 2008.

my point was that whether throwing or hitting his shoulder will determine his season.
Doctors say hell be fine and back to full strength so expect 130+ games of Jorge behind the plate.

Have to Agree with NotJoeMorgan. Even just a serviceable Posada will increase the lineup big time.

Molina is fine if you need him to catch 35 games and you can pick and choose when to start him, but as an everday player, he is just awful and severly hurt the bottom of that lineup between he and Melky.

"Yanks should just resign Pudge and call it a day. Pudge's glove is much more important to me than his bat.tart Why trade prospects for a catcher when you have a viable free agent option? Also, we mave Montero and Romine who figures to at least start their mlb careers of as a catchers who should be ready by 2010 or 2011."

Pudge doesn't have a glove. All he has is an arm. His defense is blehh. There are lots of pitchers they don't like pitching to Pudge at all. He still calling too many fastballs so he can throw out baserunners?

To add: The pitching improved with Ponson/Rasner getting something like 25% of the starts. Girardi pretty much got credit for nothing at year end because they missed the playoffs, but he did a really nice job with that bullpen.

Yo. Who cares about Melky? Seriously? Everybody acts like signing Cameron means blocking some guy like Jordan Schafer or Colby Rasmus. Melky is a bad baseball player. He adds negative value to your team. His upside his minimal. His best asset is his glove, and even that is overated. I know Jackson is the future. It has only been brought up 9 or 12 thousand times. If you sign Cameron for one year, you bring in Austin Jackon next year, and slide him right in. Again, where does Melky fit in all of this? Who cares about Melky? The idea that when Jackson comes up that Melky will somehow slide into LF is hilarious. Melky would be by far, without a doubt, the worst LF in MLB. Every team knows what Melky is. You will never get "value" from him. Forget about Melky. Banish him to the minor leagues, never to be seen or heard from again. It is like the Mets declining to sign Orlando Hudson to a one year deal, because they have Argenis Reyes. It is beyond idiotic.

@johan

your post made me laugh. the chances of any team prying lincecum away from the giants is about 0%. any team would have to WAY over trade for him. yankees fan are always providing new ways to make me laugh.

One bad year? More like one average year, followed by one bad year, followed by a truly horrendous year. But okay. Spending 10 mil on a 800 OPS fielder, who is an upgrade offensively, defensively, on the basepaths, in the clubhouse, on a one/two year deal, for a team with unlimited resources, for a team with no viable CF option for 2009, and a team with a top CF prospect who will be ready in a year or so is obviously a rookie mistake. Thank you for setting me straight, Mr. Seasoned Veteran General Manager Guru.

youre welcome...good luck with the old guy ywho hasnt seen the AL, let alone the caliber of pitchers in the AL east, in 5 years. unlimited resources or not you dont spend 10 million on a stop gap player. hed be batting 9th. all you need is someone that can handle a bat, Scott Brosius never had a .800 OPS for the Yanks.

he did his first year with the Yanks. sorry about that.

Yeah, facing guys like Derek Lowe, Brad Penny, Brandon Webb, Randy Johnson, Aaron Cook, Ubaldo Jiminez, Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, Jon Sanchez, Carlos Zambrano, Ted Lilly, Ryan Dempster, Rich Harden, Aaron Harang, Edinson Volcuez, Johnny Cueto, Roy Oswalt, Adam Wainwright etc. must have a been a real walk in the park. Why don't you spend 10 million on a stop gap player? That is some of the weirdest logic I have ever heard. I am guessing you just made that up as you were typing up your post. Tell me, do you spend 10 million on an .800 OPS center fielder with pop, speed, and elite defense? Because that is pretty much what Torii Hunter is, and he is making 18 million. Scott Brosius actually had a couple of 800 OPS season, how that is relevant, I have absolutely no idea.

"Scott Brosius actually had a couple of 800 OPS season, how that is relevant, I have absolutely no idea."

because he had 1, his first, during 4 years with the Yanks, hitting while hitting 9th where its most likly the CF is going to bat. reading comp not a strong suit of yours.
nice job mentioning the 1-2s of each rotation while mixing in some very up and down starters while leaving out all the 3-5s. AL east is the Beast because of depth, starters and relievers.
you can not expect Cameron to perform at that level after jumping to the AL.

Again, I don't even know why I am arguing. Leave Melky in CF. See if I care. Naybe he can shoot for a 54 OPS+ this season. Maybe if you add together his and Gardners OPS+, you could get to 100.

when you have incredible young talent in the yankees farm system, i think you need to take advantage of it. you have players like mark melancon, austin jackson, dellin betances. they also have players that were no shows and still have great market value. players like hughes, kennedy and melky cabrera. i think they will have the best offseason then any other team.

And as far as replacing Johnny Damon you're right. We'll just assume that a team will not trade for Holliday this year and possibly sign him to an extension. We'll just assume that the Rays don't decide to lock up Crawford now that they are competitive. Or that the Sucks won't try and extend Bay. Let's just assume that Vlad at age 33 and w/ bad knees can play the OF full time even though he DH'd for 50 games last year and will probably DH more now that Garet Anderson is probably gone. Let's assume Nady will resign just 'cuz he love being a Yankee. Let's assume that the options for Crisp, Maglio Ordonez and Jermaine Dye will not be picked up. WHat free agents will that leave us with? Griffey, Damon, Matsui, Ankiel and Giles. Sure...great. Let's assume that because were are the NY f'in Yankees that we can get anybody and everybody. God forbid we should have a farm system that generates players that have good years and deserve a shot to see what they can do for the big league team. No...let's just bring Cameron in, resign Giambi, pick up Lowe, Mussina AND Pettite and trade Cano for whoever and whatever and sign O. Hudson as our starting 2B. Then maybe we can offer the naming rights to the new stadium to AARP. We will definetly fit their advertising demographics.

YanksFanSince78, calm down there.

No one has said Gardner will be bad, but he's a scrawny guy without any signs of power. In 4 seasons of pro ball, the guy has 9 home runs. He's a singles hitter who steals bases. Even if he performs to expectations, he's not going to be anything special. It's not terrible if he ends up being the center fielder next year, but he's not the kind of guy who you plan around.

As for Melky, the guy's rookie season wasn't anything special. He's declined each year since, and was absolutely horrendous this season. It's not a one year thing with Melky, it's three years of below average performance which has continuously gotten worse.

YanksFanSince78,

If your arguments key evidence is based around batting average and RBI's, then people will take little of it seriously. You're completely and 100% cherry picking statistics (Cameron beats Melky is nearly every statistic there is), and you cherry picked two of the least meaningful stats there are. RBI's are so circumstantial that they have little legitimate meaning, and batting average is nice and all but little can be made of batting average.

"And as far as replacing Johnny Damon you're right. We'll just assume that a team will not trade for Holliday this year and possibly sign him to an extension. We'll just assume that the Rays don't decide to lock up Crawford now that they are competitive. Or that the Sucks won't try and extend Bay."

Ugh, that isn't the point. The point is that at this point, Johnny Damon isn't exactly an elite player, and with the Yankees' financial might, he shouldn't be very difficult to replace, one way or another. There are a lot of outfielders that can hit a little bit.

yanksfan seems to be understanding what the outside world sees.

Gardner simply doesn't have enough power to be a good everyday option, and best case scenario he's giving you a .360 OBP, zero power, good defense and steals. That's good, but if you're the Yankees you don't spend your time developing a guy who is already 25 into that.

I get that whole blah blah blah the Yankees don't need a star at every position, but its not about stars or names or age. It's about production and performance. And if you're a team with nearly unlimited resources, you should put forward the best effort to put the best possible team on the field. Having Cabrera/Gardner in center simply isn't the best team possible.

Adding a stopgap would be so logical that I honestly don't know why you don't agree. Cabrera and Gardner surely did affect the Yankees' overall performance on offense this year. I'm not just blaming them, there were other issues like Cano and Posada and Matsui, but realistically having a black hole in center hurt.

The Yankees scored 886 runs in 2005, 930 runs in 2006, 968 runs in 2007, and then a stark drop to just 789 runs in 2008. The Yankees offense was the problem in 2008, according to the numbers

"And even if it was Damon circa 2003 (I still love Damon as a player), my main point really is that a team like the Yankees will always be able to go find a LF guy to mash. They are all over if you are willing to pay for them. LF is probably the easiest position to replace a bat."

See thats what I don't get. These Yankee fans actually WANT to give Melky a chance to become the everyday LF, even though his ceiling wouldn't even make him a good one. If the Yankees were willing to shell out some of their nearly unlimited cash though, they could easily land a big time slugger to play in left.

But the fans insist that getting younger (and worse) is the better way to go. You guys aren't the Twins. You don't need to develop all of your talent from within. The Yankees have done a great job lately at developing young talent, and they continue to do that.

Throwing ML at bats at Melky and Gardner has nothing to do with the youth movement in New York.

". Eventually I just had to go sit down, roll one up, and watch the Knick's beat the Heat(lol). I consider the Knicks win tonight revenge against the Marlins for knocking the Mets out two years in a row. Take that fish ;)"

And I'm sure it was sweeter knowing that Eddy Curry and Stephon Marbury both got DNP-CD's on opening night.

Isn't what what Cash said he wants to do? Be more self-reliant and develope young players? Why is that a bd course of action for the Yanks to take? Now in the case like a Texiera at first we don't have any options at all except for Miranda and in this case we can't afford to pass up Texiera because he's aproven superstar and he's still very young. If Grady Sizemore were a free agent then yes I would say sorry to Melky and Gardner but there not. I don't see Cameron at age 36 a MAJOR contributor. I know you guys want to talk about homeruns..blah blah blah. If Melky can turn into a .280, 15 hr , 80 rbi guy with a glove then I'm happy because now we have a possible option for next year. With Damon walking out the door next year I want to see what Gardner can do. If he shows he can be a .280/.350 guy who can steal 50 bases then he's my starting CF in 09 unless Ajax just has an incredible showing. If I have to weigh bringing in Cameron this year vs knowing what I have for winter of 09 when it's possible we won't have Abreu, Nady, Damon, Matsui to count on then then I go with preparing myself for 09. If we have a healthy players for the whole year and get Tex then I really dont care about production from my #9 guy. Just because we have a gazillion dollars doesnt mean we have to have a 350 million dollar payroll and gobble up every single FA like we're a fantasy league team. If you disagree then ok, let's move on. But obviously Cash must think something of Cabrera or else he would've traded for him. And I'm sure if he felt it was a huge weekness then he would've addressed it furing the season.

I really don't understand the concern about Posada. Like someone said in a post before he didn't start catching until he was 21 and never played a full season well after that behind the plate. It's his shoulder that is hurt not his legs which is usually the concern with catchers. And even if he drops off from his usual numbers and Molina has to catch more than we would like its still better than what is out there. Come on can anyone really name any catchers that contribute offensively besides Mauer, Martin, Soto, and McCann? The Yankees are lucky to have Posada...injury risk and all.

First base really shouldn't be that big of a concern either. I like what I saw from Miranda and Betemits still there....plus where are we going to put Jeter in a couple years if Tex is signed to a 7 year deal? And I don't understand why Cashman is so against testing Matsui out at first....he is just going to be a DH otherwise why not try to see what he can do there. He is a great athlete and it would save his knees compared to playing the OF.

I think we have all the options now to fix this club offensively. Giambi will be gone and Abreu too. I like Abreu but he just wasn't a gritty player and played weak defense. If the Yanks could work a deal Cano for Kemp....or signed Cameron if they couldn't they would have an incredible defensive OF. Nady in right, Cameron in center (one of the top 3 defensive CF's) and even though Damon doesn't have a strong arm he covers a ton of ground in left.

Personally this is the lineup I would like for '09

LF Damon
SS Jeter
RF Nady
3B Arod
DH Matsui
C Posada
2B Cano
CF Cameron
1B Betemit/Miranda

that would be a pesky and gritty lineup and the only newcomer would be Cameron.

Concentrate on pitching Cashman....you already have the tools to put out a potent lineup.

johann,

The Mets aren't actually going to move Beltran, he's just too good.

And the Yankees are far too good and way too rich to have a bench guy and a AAAA manning first in Betemit/Miranda.

And yanksfansince78,

It seems like other Yankee fans have accepted that Melky and Gardner are just bench guys, why can't you?
Did you ever think that maybe Cashman made a mistake by not moving Melky at his highest value? Just because Cash once highly valued Melky doesn't make him a good prospect.

The fact of the matter is that you can afford a superior player to Melky/Gardner without hurting you future, and you're opposed to that. Even if Melky becomes a .280/.340/.440 guy, Jackson is still going to get a shot in center, and those numbers are poor for a LF, especially on the Yankees.

And way to ignore like every argument I made. Obviously you would sign Sizemore if he was a FA, he was one I the 10 best players in baseball this year. You guys scored nearly 200 runs less in 2008 than in 2007, and yet you think it's okay to have mediocre production from center when you can afford otherwise. Having a better 9 hitter would surely make a difference, as better depth in the lineup would make them less reliant on Rodriguez and the older guys.

We scored 200 runs fewer last year because we were w/o Posada and Matsui for most of the year and Rodreiguez had a 45 rbi drop off...jeez. Forget it. Sign a 36 year old CF. Then we'll have Posada, Jeter, Arod, Matsui, Damon and Cameron all 34 years of age or older. It's crazy...all year long people have been complaining about how old a team we are. If you're giving up on Melky then please tell me why Gardner can't get a shot? He's only played 142 at bats, surely you don't feel that he's a bust after so few of a samplings? Can you honestly say that he's incapable of hitting .280, .350 obp , 50 rbis and 50 sbs? That's basically what Ellsbury did in one full year. How do we know what he can or can't do until you let him play. the attitude you people is the same that's been pervading the team for decades. Gardner can be our leadoff CF of the future. If Ajax has a great year in 09 then ok, you have more options and you make a move then. We are in no position to throw away young guys who haven't had a shot in the majors yet. Also, to say that we can have our choice of Holliday, Crawford, Bay, Ankiel, Maglio and Vlad is stupid because now your assuming that those teams won't try to resign their own players or that those players won't be locked up before they even hit the market. The Rays, Angels, And Red Sucks aren't going to just let their players walk'm not interested in paying a guy $10 mil to be a stop gap. Just because we have millions doesn't mean that we can get any player we want or that we should. Spend whatever it takes to get a #1 and #2 pitcher and a starting 1B. CF defense is not killing us and our team didn't sputter offensively because of CF. If one weal bat in the line up can kill a teams offense then explain to me how the Phillies won with Ruiz at C and Felix at 3B?

And, to answer your Phillies parallel ...

Ruiz: .219/.320/.300
Molina: .216/.263/.313
(57 points of OBP to Ruiz!)

Feliz: .249/.302/.402 (and this ignores Dobbs)
Melky/Gardner: .244/.296/.331

I already know your response: "They could be better in 2009!" Maybe. Or they could be themselves. Or they could be worse. Not a good risk for a good team.

(And again, I'm all for young players. Can't wait for Jackson, defend Hughes as hard as anyone, etc, but they have to be good. These two might be fine CFs for poor teams; not for us.)

Not Joe:

I miss your point dude. What I'm not comparing Molina vs Ruiz. What I said was the Phillies carried 2 weak bats and still managed to win. The Rays and Sucks carried weak bats as well (Gross/Varitek).

And no I'm not saying Gardner will be as good as Ellsbury. I'm just challenging how your opinion on a player can be colored by certain circumstances. perception is everything. If he were traded and end up putting up 170 hits a .285 avg, scoring 90 runs and stealing 50 bases for another team I'd be dissapointed that we gave up on him vs 1 or 2 years of having Mike Cameron.

not joe morgan: it isn't worth arguing with him. He's in love with those two.

Not in love with either just don't see the point in bringing in a 36 yr old CF w/o seeing what you have in those two young players. If healthy our offense is good enough to carry a week bat in case they struggle. Not saying ride with them for the entire season but at least give him a shot. Unless your going to get an all-star caliber player then why spend 10 mil for a mediocre upgrade?

THIS SHOULD BE STARTING LINEUP 2009

CF SIZEMORE
2B JETER
RF MANNY RAMERIZ
SS AROD
LF NADY
C POSADA
1B TEXSERIA
DH MATSUI
2B CANO

BENCH PLAYERS
GARDENER
JACKSON AUSTIN
DEREK LEE

STARTING PITCHING
SABBATHIA
WANG
BURNETT
PETTITE
HUGHES
MUSSINA

BULLPEN
RIVERA
JOBA
COOKE
MARTE
BRUNEY
AVEDES
RAMERIEZ EDWAR
IF YOU WANT TO WIN THIS IS HOW