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« Glavine May File Grievance | Main | Bullpen Roundup: Who Should Rays Get; Is Rauch Out In Arizona? »
Ortiz Taking Sox Out Of Hitter Sweepstakes?
Don't look now, but reports of David Ortiz's demise may be exaggerated. As Joe McDonald of the Providence Journal reports, Ortiz is hitting .280 over his six-game hitting streak, including a home run, two doubles, and four RBI.
Remember that when it comes to Ortiz, the Red Sox, due to the enormous contract Ortiz carries, will likely be like Lloyd Christmas in Dumb and Dumber. If the numbers point to a one in a million chance of an Ortiz recovery, GM Theo Epstein may take a look at the $12.5MM owed to Ortiz in 2009, the $12.5MM in 2010, and say, "So you're saying there's a chance? Yeah!"
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yea that power is pretty impressive, his HR was hit exactly 302 feet and would have been a foul ball in every other stadium in the league....but he gets a curtain call, what a joke
Posted by: hollaforskolla | June 07, 2009 at 07:09 PM
I find it funny that the Sox are excited over his 305 foot, 8 foot high homer.
Posted by: hallofamer2000 | June 07, 2009 at 07:09 PM
I think it's pretty obvious that even with Ortiz's declining bat speed, he's not nearly as bad as he's been.
His line drive rate is the highest its been since 2003, and he's hitting the ball in the air more than ever.
His HR/FB rate this year is just 2.8%, which is freakishly low when compared to 18.6% for his career.
He's swinging more than ever and his contact rate has declined in spite of that, which has led to the monster climb in his K rate up to 27.3%. But his BABIP has been pretty low for someone with such a high LD%, so it's highly, highly likely that his performance will continue to improve as his BABIP and HR/FB return back to more normal levels.
Ortiz will almost surely never be the hitter that he was from 2003-2007, when he was an absolute beast, but I think that there's a decent chance that he can still be a decently productive hitter.
I'm not convinced that he's done quite yet.
Posted by: scribbletone | June 07, 2009 at 07:11 PM
Can't stand the Sawx but why hate on Papi? Hard not to like the guy.
Posted by: jhawk90 | June 07, 2009 at 07:15 PM
I don't think Epstein is dumb enough to think Papi is remotely safe over a six game stretch, but I could be mistaken...I'm still skeptical over here.
Posted by: thehoagster07 | June 07, 2009 at 07:21 PM
Ortiz got the curtain call because Sox fans love the guy. He's done a lot for the franchise, so might as well show a little support and love for him.
Posted by: Kelric | June 07, 2009 at 07:28 PM
6 games doesn't prove a whole lot unless you are a pitcher.
Posted by: Darion | June 07, 2009 at 07:29 PM
I love the D&D reference. Tim, Howard deserves a raise!
Posted by: Tommy2Tymes | June 07, 2009 at 07:39 PM
I think the whole situation is really sad. To think that his "Joe DiMaggio" like streak is impressive is pathetic. His "sudden" drop in power really comes to no surprise. It's like the Bill Hall situation in Milwaukee. Sounds like he had to stop taking a certain banned substance therefor his production has diminished.
Posted by: Gilbert | June 07, 2009 at 07:45 PM
"I'm not convinced that he's done quite yet."
I am not 100% convinced he is done quite yet either, but with the Sox in the middle of a pennant race, his OBP rate hovering at .300, his K rate horrible and no power, this is bad hole that cannot be afforded for a contending team.
He is not able to get around on the FB anymore and is resembling 'Tek in many ways of last season and am wondering also if something is still wrong with his wrist. There was a story in the Boston Globe a couple weeks ago in which Yaz had a quote regarding his horrible loss of power starting in '71 after he had his severe wrist injury and had to entirely change his stance, swing and entire outlook on plate appearances that I also remember well. Sure, Yaz's power numbers dropped dramatically after '70, but he was still a useful and AS player for another dozen years and maybe Ortiz needs to change his outlook and work on his swing/style as well and go to AAA on a extended rehab assignment to get this done, while not killing the team doing so.
Posted by: johns | June 07, 2009 at 07:45 PM
Annnnd he struck out to end the game today. He's cooked.
Posted by: GrenzNomaas | June 07, 2009 at 07:49 PM
Trade for Adrian Gonzalez. Move Youk to 3rd DH Mikey Lowell. Problem solved.
Posted by: EarlyMorningBoxscore | June 07, 2009 at 07:55 PM
"Trade for Adrian Gonzalez. Move Youk to 3rd DH Mikey Lowell. Problem solved."
I think you'd have to empty the farm for Towers to consider trading Gonzalez.
Posted by: Koby | June 07, 2009 at 08:03 PM
"I find it funny that the Sox are excited over his 305 foot, 8 foot high homer."
Probably because you're a Yankees "fan" and don't know know what it's like for fans to truly support their players even when they struggle mightily. Red Sox fans love Ortiz and were happy to see him hit that homer no matter how much of a cheapie it may have been.
Posted by: fitz | June 07, 2009 at 08:04 PM
Tim.... so much for finding a writer that could keep out their bias.
You hired a writer from NY Baseball Digest and you expected him to not show bias towards the Sox?
Posted by: Xycosis | June 07, 2009 at 08:23 PM
Joe McDonald must be spending all his time on his farm lately because Big Papi is about as far from 'recovered' as the Titanic. Anyone who's actually watched him at the plate can clearly see that. Still swinging wild, still uppercutting like a tee shot off a par 5.
Boston can hope for the best, but whether Papi gets better or not Boston isn't stupid. They know they still need to look for some hitting insurance before the trade deadline.
Posted by: Lock | June 07, 2009 at 08:24 PM
Congrats on his second homer! Now he is tied with Brett Gardner, although Gardners inside the parker probably went farther.
Posted by: Boomer | June 07, 2009 at 08:26 PM
i hate to turn on ortiz but 280 over a 6 game hitting streak = 1 for 4 basically everyday i honestly hope they can get a deal on Dunn but i just dont know what is the right call chemistry and morale wise to do with him
Posted by: zeppelin3593 | June 07, 2009 at 08:44 PM
God, I hope they think Ortiz's recent 6-game stretch means more than a third of a season worth of suckitude.
And Ortiz's homeruns are Fenway jokes. His numbers are actually INFLATED. Think about that.
Posted by: AndrewYF | June 07, 2009 at 08:47 PM
"I'd hate to think of what other things you refer to as "enormous." Ortiz's contract expires at the end of next year. Between now and then, he's owed approximately $18.75 million. Compared to the $92.25 million the Giants owe Barry Zito over the next four years, and Ortiz's contract appears "teeny.""
Are you joking? For a dedicated DH batting under .200, $18.75 is a gigantic salary. I'd love to see Ortiz come around as much as anyone else right now, but his contract is a pretty decent albatross, particularly in the now. He's untradeable (Even if he were hitting, I believe he's a 10-5 man), not really suitable for bench duty (He's just going to take up roster space as he'd have no value as a pinch hitter or defensive replacement) and if they even thought about cutting him, RSN would be up in arms (I don't care if he hit .150 on a season, the same thing would happen if Jeter got cut with NY fans). Ortiz is not producing, costs a lot of money for a straight DH and is probably the most popular member of the Red Sox. All of those things add up to this adding up to an essentially worst case scenario in terms of dealing with him.
Posted by: 0bsessions | June 07, 2009 at 08:50 PM
Well, that last sentence was a disaster on every level. Take out a use of the word add at your discretion, folks.
Posted by: 0bsessions | June 07, 2009 at 08:51 PM
"And Ortiz's homeruns are Fenway jokes. His numbers are actually INFLATED. Think about that."
That's the most ironic thing I've ever heard coming from a guy who's team plays in the biggest home run haven in the history of the game.
That aside, yes, his second home run was a joke. That said, his first was to one of the deepest parts of Fenway.
Posted by: 0bsessions | June 07, 2009 at 08:53 PM
So because the Yankees play in a stadium that gives up a lot of homeruns, that DOESN'T make Ortiz's 2 homeruns not out in most if not all other ballparks? I don't understand what the Yankees have to do with that at all.
Here's a link for you, buddy:
http://www.hittrackeronline.com/detail.php?id=2009_1207&type=hitter
They're joke homeruns, no matter how biased you (clearly) are.
Posted by: AndrewYF | June 07, 2009 at 08:56 PM
In what parallel universe is nearly 400 feet a joke home run? As I admitted, the second was definitely a cheapie, but the first one was almost into the triangle, the deepest part of the park.
Posted by: 0bsessions | June 07, 2009 at 09:03 PM
It was a wind-aided 380-foot homerun. The "true distance" is how far it would have gone if the stands weren't there.
It was a joke homerun. Ortiz now has Johnny Pesky power.
Posted by: AndrewYF | June 07, 2009 at 09:10 PM
Ok. First of all, we don't need Ortiz to hit .300 and 40-50 homers to win. Same goes for Tek who's power is back to compensate for Ortiz's lost power. Red Sox are 5-0 vs Yankees. Lets take a look at some of those left handed Teixeira shots by the way... I'll bet we can take off 5-6 homers in any other ballpark at least.
Posted by: Santana/Beckett FTW | June 07, 2009 at 09:16 PM
Actually, I should say that standard distance is the same as true distance, except it factors out wind and the like.
Posted by: AndrewYF | June 07, 2009 at 09:16 PM
same goes for Damon.
Posted by: Santana/Beckett FTW | June 07, 2009 at 09:16 PM
"His "sudden" drop in power really comes to no surprise. It's like the Bill Hall situation in Milwaukee. Sounds like he had to stop taking a certain banned substance therefor his production has diminished."
And naturally, with every struggling player comes the accusations fans make that make them feel insightful - "Gee it had to be steroids."
Simple question - then why did Ortiz STOP taking them in 2009? Why not in 2003, when the testing policy went into effect? Or 2004, when the penalty was upped to 50 games for a first offender? Or 2005, when he signed the lucrative deal?
In fact, Ortiz did not even become an elite hitter until 2003, when testing went into place and presumably a lot of players stopped taking them. Maybe he benefited from the level playing field.
Ortiz' problem is simple - the wrist he had surgery on last year is still bothering him. That's why he is jumping out ahead of changeups and breaking bballs; he has to get his swing going early.
Posted by: notin | June 07, 2009 at 09:18 PM
Actually, you can really only 'take away' 2 of Damon's shots, and 3 of Teixeira's (although one of those was hit in Camden Yards). But you can 'take away' homeruns from most hitters in baseball, including your Red Sox.
Why does this have to be a zero-sum argument? Ortiz's homeruns are inflating his already abysmal numbers, and a 6-game hitting streak is indicative of pretty much nothing.
Posted by: AndrewYF | June 07, 2009 at 09:20 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:25 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:25 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:25 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:25 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:25 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:25 PM
Ortiz's HR yesterday was definitely as cheap as they get, nobody is arguing that. If you look at his career, though, he's hit some serious dingers. His first one this year was well into the deepest part of Fenway and there's nothing cheap about that.
Ortiz's problem isn't a lack of steroids or injuries -- he looks old. His bat just doesn't move as fast as it did. Most of his fly balls are out to left field. In other words, he's late late late on so many fastballs. In order to "compensate" he's been swinging earlier, but that has led to a skyrocketing K rate. Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32. It's not that unreasonable. Other Dominicans have fudged their ages and Ortiz's problems are much more consistent with a guy who is 36 - 37 versus a guy who stopped taking steroids or is nursing a linger injury.
Posted by: huzzah | June 07, 2009 at 09:26 PM
"Anyway, I think most of this stuff indicates that Ortiz is not really 32."
Most indications are that his problem is mechanical and/or related to his wrist rather than a purely age thing. He started off slow last season before really turning it on in May (He had a 1.026 OPS on the month) before his injury. I know age happens and all, but the idea that he dropped off the table completely, losing his power, ability to hit for average AND his plate discipline all in the course of one year. By all means, it could happen, but smart money says the wrist is main problem with a bit of a boost down the toilet from his age. Even Mo Vaughn, whom Ortiz is regularly compared to of late, progressively declined. He didn't completely fall off the table, he just got incrementally worse from year to year until it was obvious he was done. Ortiz is definitely against him ever coming even close to his 2007 season, but I'd say it's extremely unlikely that age is the primary contributer to his issues right now.
Posted by: 0bsessions | June 07, 2009 at 09:34 PM
"That aside, yes, his second home run was a joke. That said, his first was to one of the deepest parts of Fenway."
Off a non major league ready rookie pitcher that was basically throwing batting practice that inning. Yes it was a long homerun but Jason Varitek did it in the same inning but even deeper so if youre trying to make a case for Ortiz, those are some factors to note.
The Yankees and Red Sox routinely hang onto fan favourite players past their prime and honestly, I respect what Ortiz has done for the Red Sox and I also respect the numbers the guy has put up in his days there but if he continues to flop, itll be a buy out and some new blood. I personally see Adam Dunn as the perfect guy to fill those shoes. I know he doesnt hit for the average that Ortiz used to but Dunn could really fit in well in Boston.
Posted by: xethicx | June 07, 2009 at 11:33 PM
Ortiz got the curtain call because Sox fans love the guy. He's done a lot for the franchise, so might as well show a little support and love for him."
Probably because you're a Yankees "fan" and don't know know what it's like for fans to truly support their players even when they struggle mightily. Red Sox fans love Ortiz and were happy to see him hit that homer no matter how much of a cheapie it may have been.""
Just like the Red Sox loved Manny, right? he carried you to two titles, and he is an outcast. Also, you do realize that Rafael Furcal's homerun went further, right? RAFAEL FURCAL has the same # of HR as your DH
Posted by: lakersdodgersyankees4life | June 07, 2009 at 11:45 PM
nobody loved manny THEO PUT MANNY ON FRIKIN WAIVERS
Posted by: zeppelin3593 | June 08, 2009 at 12:16 AM
My ass they didnt...
Red Sox fans ate out of the palm of Manny's hand for a long time until his actions off the field started boiling over onto the field and Francona, Epstein and co. just gave up on it.
Point is, Red Sox fans LOVED Manny for a long time, then things went bad. Ortiz's attitude isnt hurting the team, but his performance is and while something can be said for being a really nice guy, that doesnt put numbers in the right columns, especially when he is being paid 12.5 million dollars to do so.
As I said before, the man is being paid a lot of money to HIT and only to HIT. He cant do anything else and right now he cant even do the one thing he is being paid to do.
So that being said, I dont care how much the fans love him or how nice a guy he is, if he doesnt start hitting, something needs to be done.
Why is Ortiz above being sent to AAA on assignment? I dont think anyone will touch his contract so why not send him down for some retooling.
Posted by: xethicx | June 08, 2009 at 12:29 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/6790960
see for yourself unconditional waivers moron
Posted by: zeppelin3593 | June 08, 2009 at 12:38 AM
that being said i completly agree with your last 2 thoughts
Posted by: zeppelin3593 | June 08, 2009 at 12:40 AM
I believe the "my ass they didn't" comment was directed to your claim that nobody loved Manny in Boston (which we did, up until the bitter end) rather than the unconditional waivers part.
Just like the Red Sox loved Manny, right? he carried you to two titles, and he is an outcast. Also, you do realize that Rafael Furcal's homerun went further, right? RAFAEL FURCAL has the same # of HR as your DH
Posted by: lakersdodgersyankees4life | June 07, 2009 at 11:45 PM
If anyone carried the Sox to those titles it was Papi. He was the best clutch hitter in baseball for a four year stretch until he got hurt. I would have assumed that a Yankees fan would remember what Papi did in the 2004 playoffs. Unless you were more focused on the Dodgers then, I don't know.
Posted by: fenway_faithful | June 08, 2009 at 01:59 AM
The money owed to Ortiz is what economists call a "sunk cost." Most certainly, Epstein and Henry understand this concept. Thus, no matter what happens to Ortiz, they cannot get that money back. Therefore, it does not drive their decision making in his regard. This is a team that has shown a penchant for eating contracts in the past, including the $20 odd million owed to Manny last year, so there is NO WAY the money they are paying Ortiz will influence whether or not they play him, or find a replacement. The only thing that will affect finding a replacement this season is the value of the available hitters versus what teams are asking for them. Also remember this is a team that had Teixera's $170 million budgeted for this year, so they have $$ available.
Posted by: gogogomez | June 08, 2009 at 06:08 AM
CLIPPERSGIANTSSOXfan4life, Manny and you have a lot in common. Nobody respects either of you as a person and neither of you can perform without the use of enhancements!
Posted by: RED SOX DYNASTY! | June 08, 2009 at 06:36 AM
"Sounds like he had to stop taking a certain banned substance therefor his production has diminished."
Gilbert, you sound like just another hopeful NY fan, knowing that half your team has been on PED's that maybe, just maybe all of Papi's asskicking of your team was PED related. Do some research on how PED's effect sports performance so you don't sound like a drip nexttime.
Posted by: CTSoxfanin | June 08, 2009 at 08:00 AM
Notin and Obsessions,
I agree it's wrist related (though he was obviously mentally pressing which added to the frustration). I'm thinking that even though the wrist has healed, it's probably tight and he doesn't have the same range of motion and grip strentgh. Tendon injuries are always tricky. Look at past wrist/hand injuries of hitters (D.Lee comes to mind). That would be more than enough to throw his swing mechanics off, causing not only a huge power dropoff but the low BA. I agree, anyone who thinks PED's is not very insightful, actually they're just idiots.
Posted by: CTSoxfanin | June 08, 2009 at 08:17 AM
Boy that 300 foot homer off a changeup (not fastball) which bounced off the foul poll was sure majestic.. sure impressive..
Posted by: Matt | June 08, 2009 at 08:32 AM
It's interesting to see how players deal with issues post-steroids. I wonder to what extent him and Manny were under the needle. It will be interesting to see how Manny responds after coming off the juice.
Posted by: Russell | June 08, 2009 at 09:11 AM
At least the Sox fans don't boo him when he struggles like you skankeefans booed A-Rod the last few games when he made outs when you were losing to the rays and the game on thursday too If it wasn't for A-Rod you wouldn't be in first place right now. You have the worst fans and that includes eagles fans
Posted by: 26Rings4Ever | June 08, 2009 at 10:19 AM
I believe the "my ass they didn't" comment was directed to your claim that nobody loved Manny in Boston (which we did, up until the bitter end) rather than the unconditional waivers part.
-------------------------
Sure was :)
Posted by: xethicx | June 08, 2009 at 02:48 PM