Cardinals Have "Real" Interest In Halladay

The cardinals seems to be a decent fit for halladay. I would hate to seem him go to st louis being that Im a Cubs fan, but at least he wouldnt end up on the Angles, Red Sox, DOgers, or White Sox.

Yes, Wallace is a solid start. Don't know much else about what the Cards have to offer.

Risky move for the Cards. Not sure i would risk selling some top prospects on Doc, even if he is very good. They already hurt themselves in terms of young talent when they traded for DeRosa, and if they continue to make trades like that, you can kiss the farm system goodbye

I really hope the jays make it with the cards so the phillies wont

Sounds like the Cards are trying to drive the price up for the Phils and Brewers (& Dodgers?). The Cards don't seem to match up well - # high quality prospects or the right positions - with the Jays.

Cards don't have ... well "the Cards" ... outside of Wallace their system is barren.. I mean they dealt Chris Perez for DeRosa... Perez was rated 3rd or 4th in the system ...
Halladay at a minimum commands Rasmus, Wallace plus others .... even then I don't I do that deal if I am Toronto as Rasmus doesn't help their infield and they are loaded with OF's they can't get rid of unless Rios is dealt...

Still it ups the anty for everyone in the majors interested in Doc....

looks like halladay is this years jake peavy. if the brewers were smart, they would do whatever it takes to snag him. without another sabathia type acquisition/performance they don't stand a chance w/ the staff they have now; especially if the cards get him or the cubs' bats heat up.

No chance the Cards trade for Halliday. First of all, this quote is from some random guy who works in the front office, most likely not from a high level executive. Secondly, he said give ricciardi a list of the minor league rosters, i.e. no colby rasmus. There are at least half a dozen other teams who could outdo the cardinals

agreed with Chris....

That's why he says give Jp a list of 5 minor leaguers....meaning rasmus is off the table ...

Well, since they traded Perez and promoted Rasmus, the only guy left is Wallace and this year's 1st rounder. After those guys they did a good job improving the system but there's a dropoff after that, so saying you can circle any 5 names ends up being an empty offer. It's the last 3 names the Jays would be pressed to find.

Daryl Jones isn't a bad second player to get in a Halladay package.

"Derosa looks like an early bust"

Dude, I normal find you to be a reasonable poster... but that's just silly. He's had 9 ABs and a bad luck injury. There's no way you can claim this as even an early bust.'

the reason I say that is they are paying about 3M and he is hurt. But not only that, its the wrist. That is a very key part i=of hitting and fielding and there is no way to know how it will heal. if hes back in 15days, no big deal. However, even if he comes back, if he isnt what he was in Cleveland, then their owners could be a little more cautious.

Also, remember that Pujols and Halladay contracts could be terminated after 2010(unlikely). Even so, Pujols will make 16M, with Halladay wanting that much, at least. Not really sure if theyd want to commit long term to Halladay w/o knowing if Pujols will be back. The Cards with Halladay but no Pujols become the Giants, but with both are WS contenders. It will be interesting. The only bad thing is we have to wait over 3 weeks for this to be done, as this will be a July 31st deal, if done.

Most of you have no clue about the STL farm system.

Brett Wallace is easily a better package headliner than LaPorta was. Upside out the wazoo, has shown work ethic and dedication by slimming down and improving his defense. Doing well in AAA less than a year after playing in college.

Pete Kozma lacks the upside of an elite prospect and has struggled upon reaching AA. However, he doesn't have much minor league experience. Still projected to be a solid - if unspectacular - SS. Should also mention that it matters how Toronto values a player more than how most of you e-GM's do. Just so happens the Jays seriously considered drafting Kozma.

The Cardinal's also have another very high upside player in Daryl Jones, and a slew of upper-echelon relief prospects. Also a couple decent SP prospects. Not headliners, but not a bad 3rd or 4th piece in a trade.

As much as I hate most of the trade ideas people post all the time, a package like this would be seriously tempting:

Wallace, Jones, Kozma, Todd/Samuel/Sanchez, Reifer, Boggs

That is a TON to give up. I love prospects as much as the next guy, but the name of the game is trying to win. Halladay, Wainwright, Carp in a series would be tough to beat.

Also, it's not just a rental. They'd have him next year. If they believe they can't sign him, trade him again to replenish what they dealt away or collect the picks and hope you don't get screwed Brewer's style.

RonMexico, you mean don't get screwed Jays' style. (They got a 3rd rounder for Burnett)

Could you imagine halladay, carpenter, oswalt, and zambrano all in the same division.

Even if the Phillies dont offer Drabek, Taylor or Happ, it would be hard for anyone to beat the possibilities Carrasco, Brown, Savery, Donald and Marson create at the top half of a package. I cant see St.Louis doing it honestly.

The Cardinals can make this happen. One possible piece not mentioned yet: Glaus. Would the Jays want him back as a 1B/DH? Certainly not as a headliner in the deal, but as one of the pieces?

I would LOVE to have a rotation with Halladay, Carpenter and Wainwright, but the Cardinals really need a bat more than another arm right now.

Glaus would not be traded back to Toronto. He has zero value right now and is a free agent after this year. Trading for him would only make sense if they were expecting to contend which is nullified by any Halladay trade.

A trade for Halladay may cause the Card's to consider re-signing Glaus since their 3B of the future would be gone.

Actually, the Cards would probably hand them a list with the following names: El Hombre, Wainwright, Molina, and Colby Rasmus- and say to the Jays "you can have any other five players on our current roster, and anyone in the minors.

They have almost 28 milion coming off the books next year, and I could see them making this move.

I would only trade Wallace for a player of Hallidays caliber...nothing less. (I agree with RonMexico's post above- that is better than most, and they wouldn't be trading him within their division.

Ron Mexico = classic homer

That was the most straight faced I've ever seen someone talk up minor league relievers in an elite trade.

As is clear, it's Wallace and???

Don't you think Toronto would like 3-4 prospects that could end up STARTING in the AL East for a while?

You're going from top 3 SP over the last 5 years to Brett Wallace and a reliever?

Overpayment is the only way.

Ron Mexico = classic homer

That was the most straight faced I've ever seen someone talk up minor league relievers in an elite trade.

As is clear, it's Wallace and???

Don't you think Toronto would like 3-4 prospects that could end up STARTING in the AL East for a while?

You're going from top 3 SP over the last 5 years to Brett Wallace and a reliever?

Overpayment is the only way.

Posted by: jbibbali | July 08, 2009 at 11:54 PM
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No, read the article. The Jays had interest in both Wallace and Kozma, so they would be interested in getting them for sure. Bryan Anderson is one of the best catching prospects in the game, but he has no future in STL because Molina's locked up long term. As for the Todd, Boggs, and Mortenson, they are all starters with the upside to be #2 starters. The problem here is that Todd could end up being the PTBNL in the DeRosa deal, but Boggs and Mortenson could interest the Jays.

His post seemed pretty reasonable to me, but then again, I am a Cardinals fan so someone else will have to confirm that. Plus it makes sense for the Cards to make the deal. If we can't resign him, we trade him next year and replenish the farm. If I'm Mo, I pull the trigger.

Let me say that I think the Cards should do whatever they need to get Halladay. 6-7 prospects, whatever it takes! They would be unstoppable. If they do have all that money coming off the books next year, they could retool in free agency and contend not only this year but next.

I have a very very high opinion of Halladay and think you need 2 A prospects and then your regular cast of 3 or 4 B's and C's. Frankly, I don't trade Halladay if I have him because how do you get real value?

Prospects are unproven, you don't get any more legit than Roy Halladay.

If you wanted to save minor leaguers, I'd say start with Rasmus and end with 1 or 2 B or C guys. OFer's are easier to come by anyway. That would give Toronto flexibility to deal Rios or Wells AND eat some money.

'RonMexico is absolutely right about our system. There aren't that many A-Level guys, but we are stocked with B level guys. Many of the kids in our system have the chance to be decent everyday players in the bigs, but when it comes trade time, we will have to give up a lot of them.'

Im loving this. everyone rips the Dodgers system and how bad it is. But then one Cards fan thinks theres is a top 10 system, while another fan admits it has one A guy(Wallace) and everyone else. The Dodgers A guys are Lindblom and Martin, and while Martin wont be traded, Lindblom could be in a deal. (I dont count Rasmus because it sounds like they arent dealing him and he is in the league, been here for the whole yr). The difference btwn the Cards and Dodgers is your best prospect is a 1b/3b, while ours are starting pitchers. And yet, people keep saying we have no chance to get Halladay. Boy, are people idiots sometimes...

You know, the more I think about it, the Cards will need to be sure that 2 of the 3 of Ankiel, Ludwick, and Duncan will actually produce the rest of the way because they have been too easy to get out. Not sure Halladay puts them over the top, although who'd argue with Halladay, Carpenter, Wainwright? That's sick. You could win with the Diamondback offense there.

LOL at all of the fans of other teams in here. ESPN ranked the Cardinals farm system #6, ahead of most teams in contention for Halladay. Do some research, it's not THAT hard.

I live in Memphis and have seen Brett Wallace play for the Redbirds (cards' AAA). The dude moves with the lightning reflexes of a Hefty bag full of molasses. In one game I saw him miss three grounders that any 3rd baseman worth their salt should have snared. Word is the boy can hit, but a solid 3B he is not. My guess is he'll get the Braun treatment when he gets to the Majors, stashed out in Left Field to keep his bat in the lineup. Buying team beware...

pitching is the least of our worries right now, go and get a bat to protect the best hitter in the game

we need to get a bat to protect the best player in the game!

Ah nevermind, the cardinals homers came out to play, joining the hilarious packages mentioned by dodgers and cubs fans.

Posted by: The_Bunk | July 09, 2009 at 02:03 AM

Do enlighten us and come up with something better. Otherwise, can it.

CardsFan, I'd love to have Dunn and his absolutely incredible ability to get on base and wear down pitchers. The problem is that Dunn is an awful left fielder. The Cards have average defense at best. Bringing Dunn on board would only make the defense worse. Sure, our offense would probably create more runs with Dunn on board, but our defense would give up even more runs if Dunn were patrolling LF. For 10 Mil/yr? No thanks.

As far as protection for Pujols, he doesn't need protection. He's not had it this year and look at his numbers. He leads in almost every category. Down the stretch here I think Rasmus will provide more than enough "protection" for him. He's been really good and gets better every game.

I realize that many fans overvalue their own prospects and like to devalue others, but I am surprised to see people dogging on the Cardinals' prospects.

Understanding the specifics of the situation, you would know that the Blue Jays were openly interested in both Wallace and Kozma. Presumably, their interest remains. Add in a major league pen arm like Motte or McClellan, a near-ready starter like Mortensen, a near-ready bat like Craig or Jay, a high upside (and ranked) prospect like Daryl Jones, and a young upside arm like Richard Castillo and the package is not unreasonable.

If it is not enough, that is fine, but let's not go all crazy about ripping other teams' prospects. Unless the Dodgers decide to stick Kershaw or Billingsley into the deal (which doesn't make sense), these are the types of deals they will be offered. Again, it not enough, he can stay in Toronto.

Wallace, Jones, Motte, Mortensen, Craig, and Castillo is a significant package however you slice it.

Want another "ranked" prospect? Throw in Jaime Garcia as a PTBNL.

Also, which wouldn't affect the package JP would be willing to accept but is important nonetheless....Halladay and Carpenter are essentially best friends.

It is a point worth at least noting.

"A deal with the Cardinals would start with Brett Wallace, and might also include shortstop Pete Kozma, catcher Bryan Anderson, outfielder Daryl Jones and/or right-hander Clay Mortensen."

Ehh, that's rather uninspiring. Wallace is elite and Jones garnered a B from Sickels, but none of the others garnered higher than a C+.

I don't think the Cards have the elite prospects to make a deal for Halladay without Rasmus.

This strikes me as a slap in the face to Toronto saying pick any 5 minor leaguers meaning no Colby Rasmus.
They only have one good prospect so saying pick 5 is pure arrogance.

Colby Rasmus is not going anywhere....they made that clear in the Peavy talks the Matt Holliday talks...he is the centerfielder of TODAY! He's not a prospect anymore

The Cardinals may be able to pry Cliff Lee from Cleveland
Blake Hawksworth Trey Hearne, Scott Gorgen , Alex Castellanos type deal.

Lee makes alot less than Halladay he is also signed on the cheap through next season.

And unlike the Blue Jays, Cleveland would most likely eat the reat of this years part of Lee contract which would allow the Cardinals to pick up another piece that they may need to the playoff run.

Also we know for a fact that Jess Todd and Francisco Samuel are 2 or the 3 guys in the PTBNL pool and Cleveland control the player to be picked and have until Sept 1st to make the pick.

Which means unless Cleveland agree neither are available to be traded in other deals.

The 3rd player in the PTBNL pool is thought to be either Casey Mulligan or Adam Reifer from what we are hearing.

Ron Mexico-

As thoughtful as I found your post, I think you are OVERvaluing prospects. This is Roy Halladay. St. Louis' farm system isn't bad, but it lacks marquee players...and that's precisely what Toronto is looking for. Whoever compared Brett Wallace to Ryan Braun needs to have his head checked. Look, Wallace is likely going to be a very good ball player. Can we just agree on that and steer clear of the unfair comps? Braun had one of the greatest statistical rookie seasons OF ALL TIME!!! I'll take the under on Wallace. Dude can hit, but he has no defensive value whatsoever. At least in the AL he can start at first and move to DH.

More importantly, there are no more "elite" prospects behind Wallace. In time I think Mateo and Miller will both be very good prospects, but Miller hasn't even signed yet and Mateo is all of 16. That leaves a lot of...guys. Neither good nor bad. Yes, Toronto looked at Kozma in the draft, but that was a couple of years ago. After failing to impress thus far, he's probably fallen out of favor a bit (we're all just guessing here). Jess Todd, Clayton Mortensen, Jaime Garcia. Back of the rotation starters or relievers. Yes, there's a need for back of the rotation starters and relievers, but there's no chance in HELL that Roy Halladay is traded in a deal that involves back of the rotation starters and relievers as primary pieces. NO WAY IN HELL.

Mark my words, it'll take a Bedard type offer. If the Cards start with Rasmus and Wallace, they're off to a good start. Toss in any three among: Jones, Kozma, Todd, Mortensen, Castillo, and Reifer and you've got a strong package. Problem is...the pitching isn't there. You HAVE to think that the Jays want at least one A-list pitching prospect back in any deal for Halladay; some guy they can dream on as the NEXT Halladay. Where do you find that in St. Louis? The answer is nowhere.

If the Jays want bats, though, they could come calling.

Oh and LaPorta and Wallace are fairly equal as prospects, though I'd give Wallace the slight edge on account of age.

"The Cardinals may be able to pry Cliff Lee from Cleveland
Blake Hawksworth Trey Hearne, Scott Gorgen , Alex Castellanos type deal."

...(starts, stops, curses, mutters to self)...

C'mon dude. Seriously. Think BEFORE you write. Hey, maybe they could get Lincecum, Cain, Bumgarner, and Alderson for Adam Ottavino, 6 Advil, and a half eaten burrito as well. Friggin' moron.

"This is certainly true. But "could" is the operative word. Is there any other team in baseball that would say "pick any five" (assuming the Cards actually did)? I doubt that an team with a highly-rated farm system would say that."

Even the Texas/Oakland/Tampa Bay/Florida/Boston systems could say "pick 3, and then we'll discuss the last 1-2 guys" and the deal be fair to both sides.

(not saying all of those teams would, or should be interested in making a Halladay deal)

milehigh78:

I disagree on the Rasmus thing. There's no way Toronto expects to get him. He's sporting a 117 OPS+ and has a UZR/150 of 27.6 on the year in centerfield. That elevates his status from "prospect" to "legitimate contributor." If (or when) they trade Halladay, they're going to expect their trade partner to give up players from the future, not those who are already an integral part of the major league team. I suppose you could, however, reason that St. Louis is not a good match because of this reason... maybe you would concede that Rasmus is not going anywhere.

Furthermore, while I understand that Halladay is a better pitcher than Bedard, there are a couple more reasons that you could reason that Baltimore had more leverage than Toronto: for starters, the Mariners were getting two full years out of Bedard as opposed to under a year and a half of Halladay. Second -- and more importantly -- Bedard had only four years of service time at the time of the trade, meaning Seattle was getting him at rate far below market value. And while Halladay is also playing for less than he's worth, he's still making about double what Seattle could have expected Bedard to make.

Rasmus as part of a deal for a pitcher, no matter who, would be counterproductive. The offense has been terrible all year and that would be subtracting one of the few bright spots. I don't think there is a team in baseball that would part with two players of Rasmus' and Wallace's talent. Not to mention so many cost-controlled years.

Also, keep in mind all of this is what we are hearing through the press. No one knows the Jay's situation. They may be feeling more pressure to make a deal than they are letting on. If I remember correctly, a couple weeks ago J.P. said they weren't going to trade Roy and they thought they had a legit chance at re-signing him.

This is a negotiation. Toronto holds a lot of leverage, but maybe not as much as people think. They aren't going to openly say they're facing pressure from the economy or from anything else. To do so would completely decimate their leverage.

All I can say is if a team isn't willing to give up 2 A+ prospects plus 2 b+ prospects then don't bother low balling with garbage...

Posted by: cortez101 | July 09, 2009 at 10:16 AM

Someone has never been part of a negotiation before. If you don't start with a low-ball offer, you're foolish and naive. You low-ball on the off chance the other side will bite and in hopes of lowering the final price a bit.

That said, lets think about this from Toronto's perspective. You want the equivalent of what you'd receive if Roy leaves as a free agent (1st and supplemental) plus compensation for the rest of this year. Also keep in mind the Jays would not just be receiving a good haul of prospects, but also significant salary relief.

We can argue prospects day and night 'til our teeth turn blue and never change each others opinions. My argument is - if you were the Jays - would you rather have players with established records, or take your chances in the draft?

As a Cardinals fan, I don't really care if some of you like our prospects or not. Thing is, any team that gives up five prospects better than Wallace, Jones, Kozma, Boggs, etc. is stupid.

We're talking about a 31-year-old pitcher who is going to require a boat-load of money to re-sign. No one player -- especially a picher, and no matter how good he is -- is worth giving up what is supposedly required to acquire him. It's ridiculous.

Seals, prospects are just that - prospects. We're talking about someone who year in & out is a Cy Young candidate.
One of the best there is.

Ben McDonald, Todd Van Poppel & other 'can't miss' types amounted to nothing compared to their insane hype.

Halladay is not hype, he's the real thing.

As far as protection for Pujols, he doesn't need protection. He's not had it this year and look at his numbers. He leads in almost every category. Down the stretch here I think Rasmus will provide more than enough "protection" for him. He's been really good and gets better every game.

Posted by: Runner | July 09, 2009 at 07:36 AM

A) I'm pretty sure Rasmus has consistently batted in front of Pujols in the lineup. "Protection" implies someone hitting behind him that would make the opposing team think twice about walking him (that guy is certainly NOT Ludwick, or DeRosa for that matter, even though he has heated up in the past week or so).

B) IMO, if the Cards do not find that protection, El Hombre will start to get the Bonds treatment down the stretch.

astrostl- stop speaking gibberish. This sabermetric crap is getting out of hand. Look, no one is saying Rasmus isn't a good young ballplayer. He IS and will continue to be, most likely. Wallace too, could turn out to be a very fine player. If its the Cardinals' prerogative to hang on to them...more power. I'm telling you that- as important as all that stat crap may be- it comes down to something much more simple: supply and demand. If St. Louis wants Halladay, the very strong likelihood is that it will take both guys...and then some. You can plug whatever you want into a computer and get it to spit out some number that will supposedly tell you what's worth what, but in the end, its a question of A)a 31 y.o. Cy Young winner with a proven record for piling up innings, wins, and K's or B)a good looking young CF and some prospects who may or may not turn into something of value. That's it. Everything else is just white noise.

Oh, I understand he's the real thing but he's still a 31-year-old human who makes his living slinging his arm in an un-natural motion hundreds of times a year.

Remember when Kevin Brown was at the same stage in his career and EVERYONE went crazy for him? Remember when the Dodgers signed him to that ridiculous contract?

Halladay is an amazingly real talent, but he's still a pitcher.

No pitcher is worth that many quality prospects (whether they make it or not) for a year-and-a-half of his service.

Glaus will be a type A this year, and barring injury, Halladay will be a type A next year.

Let's get a few things straight.

Rasmus, Wallace, and Kozma is only a bit larger than the haul the A's got for Haren. And Halladay should command MORE than Haren. And, you do realize that the O's will get WAY more out of their haul than Bedard's surplus value and the A's will probably get WAY more out of their haul than the DBacks will get for Haren 2008-2010 (the extension years don't count).

Dave leaves out supply and demand, which will inevitably raise the price.

And, Halladay is MUCH MORE LIKELY to continue his elite performance through 2010 than Rasmus is to continue his performance through 2010. Elite players on favorable contracts (Johan Santana doesn't count since he would nix any trade that didn't involve him getting a 100MM extension on the spot) almost NEVER get traded, and when they do, teams massively overpay for them.

If you really want to narrow it down, go through all the teams that
1. Have interest(teams like the Pirates or Marlins who would never that kind of salary in the first place)

2. Have the room for his salary

3. Currently have and would be willing to give up the the prospects it would take to get him.

That narrows it down pretty quickly.

“Remember when Kevin Brown was at the same stage in his career and EVERYONE went crazy for him? Remember when the Dodgers signed him to that ridiculous contract?”

The “ridiculous contract” Kevin Brown got from the Dodgers where he only went 872.2 IP in 137 Starts (Averaging 174 IP and 25 starts a year) where he posted a 58-32 record with a 2.83 ERA (147 ERA+) and 1.100 WHIP over 5 years before they traded him?

Over the length of the contract, Brown went
164 Starts (172 G), 72-45 Record, 3.23 ERA, 1.162 WHIP

They paid him like he was the best pitcher in baseball, and guess what? He might have been just that – at least in the discussion.

So if you want to insinuate a possibly bad outcome, you might want to reference one instead of referencing one of the huge contracts that actually worked out quite well.