Central Notes: Indians, La Russa, Verlander

A few links to pass along regarding clubs in the Central divisions …


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75 Comments on "Central Notes: Indians, La Russa, Verlander"


notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

people sometimes talk about how offensive it is that professional athletes get paid so much to play a game

i am infinitely more offended by the fact that people like jeff passan get paid to write about it

Rabbitov
3 years 11 months ago

Well put, but I’m with him on Verlander. 

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

Agreed.

I’m normally completely against pitchers winning the MVP but what this guy has done for Detroit has been amazing this year. They’re not the best team in that division without him. I’m all for him getting it.

jjs91
3 years 11 months ago

Have you seen that division the tigers are 12 games over that isnt all verlander, lets not forget their offense has been doing pretty good.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

Take him out of that rotation and see how high in the standings they are. Their offense has been great but the division race was pretty close all year, only recently becoming a runaway train.

Encarnacion's Parrot
3 years 11 months ago

Verlander is having a great year, but he still has a 2.92 FIP, probably because of his .237 BABIP.

AL’s best pitcher by far, but I just don’t view him as an MVP. Take out his 6.7 WAR and they’re still a 1st place team by a landslide.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

I’m not sure about that. The Tigers have only been running away with the division since their winning streak.

Before the 12 game win streak, the Tigers were only up 5.5 games on the White Sox and 6 on the Indians.

You can use WAR all you want but it’s a worthless stat if you don’t examine things on a game by game basis, especially with pitchers.

Like for instance, Verlander is 14-1 agaisnt the AL Central.

Since July 19th (when the Indians/Tigers were tied) Verlander has gone 11-0.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

WAR is a “worthless stat if you don’t examine things on a game by game basis”, but win-loss records are not? yikes. here’s the actual game-by-game breakdown of his AL Central wins

W,9-3
W,3-1
W,4-0
W,2-1
W,6-2
W,5-4
W,4-3
W,4-3
W,7-1
W,6-4
W,8-1
W,8-6
W,5-0

5.5 runs per game from the tigers. 2, maybe 3 times out of 13 it was an incredible pitching performance that won the game

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

he doesn’t lead the league in Win Probability Added (weaver does). he doesn’t lead the league in FIP (sabathia does). he plays in a significantly weaker division than sabathia. he’s had less run support than sabathia, but at almost 5 runs per game he’s had much more than weaver. he has a negative clutch rating for the third time in his career

verlander is phenomenal. i’d take him 1st over the other candidates if i were putting a team together. but to say that he’s the MVP this year when he doesn’t even lead the other cy young candidates by significant margins seems weird to me

Rabbitov
3 years 11 months ago

I wouldn’t look into it too much. A strong pitching year doesn’t diminish Verlander’s achievement this year.  

Can’t argue with the division being weak, but also can’t argue with the results.  This is a historic performance for him. 

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

i don’t have anything bad to say about him, he’s awesome. i just have a lot of good things to say about a lot other players this year, too – pitchers included. makes it difficult for me to think of him as the MVP

3 years 11 months ago

I know this has little to no statistical backing but something has to be said for the psychological advantage he gives the Tigers. It’s much easier to put up big offensive numbers when you don’t have the pressure of needing 5 runs to win the game.

Again, it comes down to your definition of valuable, and to me, it doesn’t mean “most statistically superior”. It means what player was needed most by his team, and I do think that’s verlander.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

needed by his team for what, though? winning games presumably. and presumably the most outstanding player does the most to contribute to that cause. that’d be jose bautista

i do not understand the argument that because the team has won a certain number of games relative to the number of games the other teams in its division have won, the contributions of all of the players on that team (of which each win is composed) are magically more valuable than the contributions of all of the players on the other teams

doesn’t make sense to me, but we probably shouldn’t get off on this tangent. i can agree that it’s possible by your way of thinking to conclude that verlander is the MVP. i just don’t think of it the way you do

3 years 11 months ago

Yeah I think that’s the issue. My point is mainly that it’s easier to play knowing you’re (pretty much) guaranteed a win every fifth day. It gives the whole team confidence above just winning the actual games. Does that make sense?

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

definitely. it’s just hard (impossible) to quantify how much more confidence he gives the tigers than sabathia gives the yankees or weaver gives the angels. also how to quantify how much that confidence translates to production, which is the only reason it would be valuable

3 years 11 months ago

Very true.

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

is there a geek-stat for “Pressure of Needing Runs Probability Added”? 
Surprised if there isn’t. won’t be surprised if there is one soon. (and one that will son follow that will be either an xPNRPA or a woPNRPA

Encarnacion's Parrot
3 years 11 months ago

I didn’t get into the stats too much because I knew you’d do it for me hahah.

I wouldn’t give Weaver the Cy because he kinda does reside in the same division as Oakland and Seattle. Sabathia has a legitimate chance, but Verlander is having a better year–mostly due to luck and a more pitchers friendly ballpark, but still a better year.

If Tampa keeps it close with Boston, Ellsbury or Granderson I think should be the AL MVP, with Bautista rounding out the top 3.

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

sick of the hype for both Granderson and Ellsbury. significant contributors to very strong teams but i don’t see either the Yanks or BoSox trying to track down the Orioles because those guys aren’t there. I’m not making a downtrodden “what about our guy?” argument, but take Bautista away from the Jays and they are looking at the O’s. 
and, as far as Granderson goes, start making a list of the decent lefty hitters that would have 40 jacks playing in Yankee “Field” 

Encarnacion's Parrot
3 years 11 months ago

Considering Granderson has hit 19 of his 39 homers on the road with a .910 OPS, I don’t think Yankee Stadium has helped him out as much as it’s perceived.

Ellsbury has passed Bautista in WAR, and is the better overall player in 2011. Take his 8.5 WAR out and I believe Boston is in 3rd place.

I’m a Jays fan and all, but Bautista deserves the Hank Aaron Award more than the MVP in my eyes.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

home/road splits are just a new geek-stat, imma stick with my bias

Lunchbox45
3 years 11 months ago

I met Granderson yesterday and he told me that he’d feel weird winning the mvp because he doesn’t even feel the most valuable on his team, he said CC should win it.

Really nice guy though.

scrand
3 years 11 months ago

Add a 3-0 shutout of the A’s today – that’s 12 in a row now, 24 and 5 – exclamation point!

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

add that to the list of wins against AL Central clubs?

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

Well in this case they aren’t pointless because he’s not giving up 4-5 runs a start and still getting the win. (I think that happened once or twice).

The point is that he completely dominates the teams he needs to.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

you’re switching the goalposts around here. what indestructible said is that he’s been completely dominant, but that the tigers would still be in first place without him (with a lesser pitcher)

then you questioned that, citing wins against AL Central clubs

then i showed you dominance was not necessary to win all but a few of those games

then you said “yea but he’s been dominant”

well right, we know – that’s where we started, remember? the point is a less dominant pitcher would have resulted in wins in most of those games anyway. i.e. without verlander, the tigers would likely still be in first

this is indestructible’s argument, not mine. my argument would be that irrespective of that fact, other players have been more valuable than verlander

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

FIP this

captainjeter
3 years 11 months ago

no  way any pitcher should get the MVP, they have the CY Young.

My agruement? the  writers  did not give it to Guidry  for his 1978 season, then  they can not justify  giving it to Verlander. Guidry was at least the most dominate pitcher in baseball that  year .

Rabbitov
3 years 11 months ago

Yea okay, show me someone having a season like Jim Rice’s that year that actually has a shot at the playoffs?  Further if I agreed with you why would you want history to repeat itself?  You want a pitcher to not make it now because Guidry didn’t in 1978?  Thats pretty absurd. 

Further no pitcher should receive MVP? You do know batters have Silver Slugger awards right?

3 years 11 months ago

Hank Aaron Award is more appropriate methinks.

JacksTigers
3 years 11 months ago

Yet three pitchers have won the MVP since Guidry. Not a good argument.

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

both to captainjeter and rabbitov
problem as i see it, is it’s always an argument about MVP and MOP, as in Valuable compared to Outstanding
Guidry was Outstanding. but maybe, in the context of that Yankee machine, someone like, say, Chris Chambliss was just as Valuable

burritolikethesun
3 years 11 months ago

Passan and Mike Bauman stroke each other to the thought of the lowest common denominator every night.

rayking
3 years 11 months ago

LaRussa dismissed the rumor, then used a double switch to put in Corey Patterson to replace whoever started the rumor.

NorCalTribeFan
3 years 11 months ago

Hoynes needs to check his math.  Even with all the arb eligible players and Sizemore and Carmona’s options, the Indians still won’t crack $65 million.  They will decline Sizemore’s option then try to renegotiate.  They should have money for a free agent and some flexibility to make trades.  They will end up over $70, but with additional hitting.

tycobb
3 years 11 months ago

If JV wins his next two starts against Oakland and Baltimore he should win the MVP. Plus his season stats are the same or better than when Roger Clemens won the MVP with Boston.

MattCMoore
3 years 11 months ago

Thoes games should be easy wins for him. But you never know about bad offensive teams like OAK and SEA, they could have a lucky day aginst him if he dosnt make all of his pitches.

JacksTigers
3 years 11 months ago

He doesn’t play Seattle this season.

SplitFingeredPujol
3 years 11 months ago

Personally, I’m against the idea of a pitcher winning the MVP. They have their own award. It would be Verlander Cy Young, Bautista MVP with my vote. 

3 years 11 months ago

Give the Pitchers a silver slugger then.

scrand
3 years 11 months ago

Pitchers do win the silver slugger award – but only in the National where pitchers bat. With interleague play now – maybe they should give the AL best hitting pitcher the award as well…even with just a handful of ABs.

3 years 11 months ago

Zach Britton!!!!

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

and give another Gold Glove to Raffy Palmeiro!

burritolikethesun
3 years 11 months ago

Why would you give Bautista the Most Valuable Pitcher Award hum dum har herh HERH HERH HERSLAPDAPFOWIEH?!!??! Beefaroni does a body good. Cats cats cats.

JacksTigers
3 years 11 months ago

Are you on drugs?

burritolikethesun
3 years 11 months ago

Body massage.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

i like the way you move

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

It’s Most Valuable PLAYER. Not position player, PLAYER. Justin Verlander is a Major League Baseball PLAYER.

The Cy Young Award goes to the most outstanding pitcher. Where in that do you see “most valuable pitcher?”

scrand
3 years 11 months ago

No way Bautista should get the MVP….how Valuable is he when they still finish 4th and are a .500 team with him. I’m all for Verlander getting the award until they change the name to the Babe Ruth Award for hitting excellence. Until then it’s fair game for pitchers to when as well. They have their own award is like saying that a goalie shouldn’t win the Hart Trophy (MVP) in the NHL because they have the Vezina (Top Goalie) award. Like I said…change the name from Most Valuable Player or add another award just for batting excellence. Bautista would be eligible then but no way should he win the MVP…..that would be a joke.

grownice
3 years 11 months ago

Bautista for MVP. Check that stats.

3 years 11 months ago

HE PLAYS IN A DOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

grownice
3 years 11 months ago

 O….K!?…..LOUD NOISES!!!

scrand
3 years 11 months ago

I did….the Jays are are 76 and 74…..my point exactly….great hitter (except of this month .196 – kinda sucking wind now) but how VALUABLE is he really?

stl_cards16
3 years 11 months ago

If the Blue Jays were in the AL Central, they would be going to the playoffs too.  So I don’t get how someone wants to make the argument that Verlander should get the MVP and Bautista shouldn’t because his team isn’t going to the playoffs.  The Blue Jays play the three best teams in the AL 15 times a year, and they are still over .500.  It’s a pretty good team, in a really good division.

tycobb
3 years 11 months ago

If Bautista played in the Central he would play the majority of his games in big ball parks. Det, KC, Min and Cle. If Cabbie hit in the east ball parks he would have even higher numbers.

I think at the end of the day the Blue Jays are a .500 team in what ever division they play in.

stl_cards16
3 years 11 months ago

You’re kidding right?  You don’t think the Blue Jays would have a better record if they played the Indians, White Sox, and Royals 25% of their games instead of the Yankees, Red Sox, and Rays. 

And if we’re going to use the argument of smaller parks in the AL East against Bautista.  I guess we should use the argument of Verlander playing in larger parks in the AL Central against Verlander.

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

it’s goofy anyway. park-adjusted stats exist and if you use them, bautista is still the best hitter alive in 2011 (and, incidentally, verlander isn’t the best pitcher)

Lunchbox45
3 years 11 months ago

park adjusted stats told me that adrian gonzalez should have had another 15 Homeruns this year. 

Lunchbox45
3 years 11 months ago

that’s an absolutely absurd conclusion..

put the tigers in the AL East and not only is Verlander out of the cy young running, the team would be no where near a playoff position.

I double dare you to find any stats that prove my opinion to be false. 

tycobb
3 years 11 months ago

If JV had a few more starts against the Blue Jays, give him a second no hitter for the year…..lol

notsureifsrs
3 years 11 months ago

“this player is the MVP. check his team’s stats”

grownice
3 years 11 months ago

 Ignorance is Bliss.

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

“No way Bautista should get the MVP….how Valuable is he when they still finish 4th and are a .500 team with him.”
and maybe they are a .250 team without him?

NYPOTENCE
3 years 11 months ago

Pitchers should not win the award!!!!! I don’t care how phenomenal they are doing they play in about 20%(SP) of the teams’ games, While a position player who is contending for the award is playing over 90% of the games. In my opinion, position players are in a totally different level of value than the pitchers are. Not saying pitchers are not worthy.

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 11 months ago

They play less games but position players average about 600 plate appearances.

Justin Verlander has faced 910 batters.

NYPOTENCE
3 years 11 months ago

Alright but that doesn’t make much sense, pitchers face 900 batters through 32 games and have no effect in any of the other games. I just don’t think they impact the game as much as hitters do.

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

there’s an argument to be made that when an Ace is lined up to face you, you may change your strategy and/or rotation, so it does have an effect

Lunchbox45
3 years 11 months ago

and what about defensive responsibilites??? Which would make it more like 4000 AB’s for a position player that they are or could be involved in. 

TheHotCorner
3 years 11 months ago

Currently (in my opinion) I think that many people see the Cy Young and
MVP as equal awards so when a pitcher gets considered for both it causes
an uproar.  I think the whole issue of whether a pitcher can/should be considered for the MVP Award is a mess that has been created by MLB and could be easily fixed. 

There is an award for the best hitter in each league but how many people actually know what that award is called?  I realize many people on this forum will know but the average fan knows of only two awards, the MVP and the CY Young.  The Hank Aaron Award is given each year to the best hitter in each league.  I think that the award should also take into consideration defense but on the same note that a DH can indeed win the Hank Aaron Award.  Currently it only takes into consideration hitting, which is why I assume that the MVP and the Hank Aaron Award winner are not always the same person.

If MLB started started a marketing campaign in order to get the Hank Aaron Award accepted on the same level as the Cy Young Award with fans then you would have the Cy Young for the best pitcher in each league, the Hank Aaron Award for the best hitter in each league, and then the MVP Award given to the best overall player in each league (would have to be either the Cy Young or Hank Aaron winner).

mauerfan
3 years 11 months ago

Jose Bautista is MVP. /discussion

JacksTigers
3 years 11 months ago

How about position players get a Cy Young. We can take the best position player that pitched in a blow out and give him a Position Player Cy Young Award. There. Now everyone is happy. Can Verlander have his MVP now?

crashcameron
3 years 11 months ago

The Jose Canseco Award!

3 years 11 months ago

There is this thing.  It’s called the Hank Aaron Award.  It’s for the best hitter.

JacksTigers
3 years 11 months ago

I’m aware of that.

Lunchbox45
3 years 11 months ago

Ive already come to terms of Bautista not winning the MVP award.. I think if Boston holds on, Ellsbury will win it…

Its hard to be upset with that realistically.. If Granderson and ELlsbury didn’t exist, then ya, the award goes to Bautista who has been significantly better than almost everyone else..

However I feel that in the event of a close race, the player on the team with the most success will win.. it’s probably not right, but it is what it is..

I’m not opposed to a pitcher winning the MVP award, but he would have to be significantly better than any position player that year, which Verlander hasn’t been…

Take out Bautista, Ellsbury, Pedroia, and Granderson’s year and yah Verlander wins it hands down. but thats not the case, and Verlander shouldn’t win, enjoy the Cy Young though, and best of luck in the playoffs