Cubs Planning “Complete And Total Rebuild”

The Cubs are attempting to deal "most of their valuable assets" before Spring Training begins and "a complete overhaul of the team will definitely happen," two Major League sources tell David Kaplan of CSN Chicago.  The impending Sean Marshall-for-Travis Wood trade is the first step in this process, as the Cubs are acquiring a young, controllable, 24-year-old southpaw starter for a 29-year-old reliever who was set to earn $3.1MM in 2012.

We heard last month that the Cubs were shopping their entire roster, though as MLBTR's Tim Dierkes pointed out, "a team drawing three million fans a year doesn't often embark on a full-on offseason rebuilding effort."  The Marshall-Wood trade, for instance, still gives Chicago a player who can contribute in 2012.  Also, the Cubs were rumored to be in on the Albert Pujols and Prince Fielder sweepstakes this winter, as signing either player would represent the Cubs' first step towards respectability under the Theo Epstein/Jed Hoyer regime.  Kaplan, however, hears that the Cubs aren't in on Fielder, nor are they planning to make him "a major offer."

"The Cubs have never had the guts to completely blow up their roster and build it the right way," an unnamed NL executive tells Kaplan.  "They have to have a plan for sustained success instead of always trying to patchwork a roster for a surprising season."

Even if the team does rebuild, I'd argue the process may not take as long as the Wrigleyville fans may fear.  Carlos Zambrano, Ryan Dempster and Marlon Byrd all come off the books after this season, leaving Alfonso Soriano as the only major remaining albatross contract on the payroll.  Chicago's future payroll commitments could get even lower should Matt Garza and/or Carlos Marmol be traded, so Epstein and Hoyer could have tens of millions of dollars to work with by as soon as next winter.  This is admittedly a long list of ifs, but if this extra spending money can be augmented by a couple of strong drafts and the emergence of young stars like Andrew Cashner and Brett Jackson, the Cubs could be back in the NL Central hunt by as soon as 2014.


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345 Comments on "Cubs Planning “Complete And Total Rebuild”"


cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Moronic.

MrBaseball29
3 years 8 months ago

You watch your mouth boy

MNTwins12
3 years 8 months ago

Don’t know about you, but I usually don’t use my mouth when typing.

lefty177
3 years 8 months ago

you watch your fingers boy, better? Now i sound dirty

Khabibulan
3 years 8 months ago

Wrong. You “read” dirty.

3 years 8 months ago

Last time I checked the Cubs weren’t a good team, how is leaving the team the way it is smart? Rebuilding is the complete opposite of moronic.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Because–and I’m not putting this into every single inquisitive reply, so if you want to know, read this one–it’s the worst market to do this.

Draft and international FA spending has been capped, a first in baseball. This means less money can go into those facets of building a team. The Cubs have operated with a $120-150 million payroll for YEARS, and now that they have more funds to put into that MLB payroll, they decide to cut payroll and trade every valuable asset? It’d be like getting a $1 million Christmas bonus, then selling your mansion and BMW for a trailer and a 1992 Ford Tarus as a result.

Second, the team’s biggest need for quite some time now has been a competent 1B (on offense). Lee was good in 2005 and 2009, but ’06-’08 and these past two seasons were lacking. On top of that, the monster bat from the left side has been missing for HOW many years? Now, in 2011, the best FA for the team is a monstrous slugger from the left side. On top of that, this is the worst market for a player of his kind–none of the big clubs (Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, etc.) are in on him. They are all broke (Mets, Dodgers), or they have high-dollar 1B on their rosters (Red Sox, Yankees, Phillies, Tigers). This is THE time to go after a guy like Fielder, when the biggest competition is the Deattle Mariners.

Now, I’m not saying go spend all of the money in the world. Ther should absolutely be a big shift towards amateur spending and scouting, and guys like Garza, Marshall, Marmol, Soto, Byrd, and Soriano should go. However, that doesn’t mean you have to totally gut the team, go Florida Marlins (pretend you’re poor and refuse to spend money), and leave the city with a team so bad the Astros can beat them handily. Fielder is the kind of piece you get now and build around. Having Travis Wood (and a couple of prospects) developing into MAYBE a #3 starter is a decent rotation start, and they have a few young arms in Cashner (shoulder willing), Dolis, and whomever else escapes my mind this second. You have Castro, of course, along with Baez, Szczur, Jackson, and Vitters progressing in the minors for a year or two.

My point is, this should be a project that takes 2-3 years, but they’re sounding like they want a long-term project of 5+ years before this team sniffs the division, let alone the playoffs or World Series.

I’m saying it’s moronic that they want to blow up a team with the money and (alleged) baseball acumen to contend in the short-term, if they so desire, in the hopes of giving a fan base with a century-long title drought a worthwhile product by 2020.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

You would seriously prefer to try to contend in a year or two at the cost of long term success rather than have a perennial contender but have to wait 3-4 years?

aaron b
3 years 8 months ago

Why does it need to be an either/or proposition? The minor league system is completely devoid of impact Players other than MAYBE BJax.

Why not sign Fielder to anchor the offense? Why not pick up a Kuroda type of rotation anchor?

It sounds like a blatant money grit from an owner who is looking to extort money to rebuild Wrigley.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

because you aren’t a fielder+kuroda away from winning. you aren’t good. you suck. accept it. embrace it. you need draft picks and prospects, not top free agents and 3rd place

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

You’re right–prospects are more proven commodities than free agents. The Yankees won the World Series after drafting A.J. Burnett, CC Sabathia, and Mark Teixeira.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

you’re right, the 2012 cubs are a lot like the 2008 yankees

you are completely delusional

JasonPen
3 years 8 months ago

No, but the Yankees did draft Jeter, Rivera, Posada, and Petite, and they signed Cano as an international amatuer FA, also they used their players (Soriano) to trade for ARod.  Pretty Solid team if you ask me…. They had a solid base and filled in the holes with big name FA’s.  The Cubs don’t even have a solid base yet, and you are wanting them to sign every FA available and then be strapped with bad overpriced contracts in 4-5 years just like before.  Forget Fielder… If he wants anything more than 4-5 years, he can just go play in SafeCo for all I care.  Theo and Co. are doing it the right way.  I want them to build from the farm system, and in 3-4 years they should have the talent to contend for the next decade.  Fill the holes then.  They’ll have 100 million to spend after all these Jim “Clueless” contracts are off the books.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Throwing literally hundreds of millions of dollars at players who are at, or are getting near, the downside of their careers is not the way to build lasting success.  Especially when those players aren’t even enough to put you in contention in the short, or long, term.

They could have signed all of Wilson, Darvish, Buehrle, Fielder, Reyes, Papelbon, and Madson and still only been maybe contenders; then in a few years they would have a Yankee sized payroll, no farm system (and no where to play prospects even if they have them), and again be a sub-.500 team.

aaron b
3 years 8 months ago

Why can’t they build a system while ALSO attempting to make an effort to win? This system will take 5-7 years to consistently produce anything. Might as well grab some strategic difference makers now to speed up the process.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Because of everything I just said; they don’t have the core in place to contend even if they spent $400M on free agents.

And the farm doesn’t need to take 4-5 years to produce if you trade away players.  The prospects you would get in those deals would be maybe a year away from the majors and maybe 2-3 away from being significant contributors, and by at that time you can add free agents to complement them and have more prospects coming up through the system behind them.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

You trade Garza, Marshall, Marmol, Byrd, Soriano, and Soto for prospects. You grab Fielder and maybe Edwin Jackson as guys who will be productive for the club for 5+ years without hurting the farm in the slightest after shedding payroll.

I’m still not seeing why it’s bad to use FA AND trades to build the team.

dc21892
3 years 8 months ago

So you’re saying to just blow up the whole roster and leave a bunch of AAA guys on it, then hope Prince signs? LOL.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Trade all of them and sign big money free agents?  That is the biggest waste of money in the world.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

“Even if the team does rebuild, I’d argue the process may not take as long as the Wrigleyville fans may fear… the Cubs could be back in the NL Central hunt by as soon as 2014.”

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, IF THEY GET FREE AGENTS. What, do you think they’re going to make a World Series contender in 3 years by drafting alone?

The 2012 guys might be on the MLB roster by 2014, at least the best ones. You might see one–perhaps two– 2013 draft guys on the 2014 roster IF the Cubs tank 2012 on purpose and everything in drafting goes perfectly. 2014 draftees will be useless. Baez and Szczur SHOULD be ready, but might not (and might not pan out at all).

The draft is not enough to build a team in 3 years’ time. You have to get free agents. Who are you going to get in the 2013 offseason, Joey Votto? He’s not guaranteed to become a FA, will cost more (inflation 2 years from now), we might see a team or two in contention to bid on Votto, he’ll probably want more years than Fielder (while being 3 years older when he hits FA than Fielder is as a FA now), AND he will be 30.

So, what is the logical reasoning behind why they should aim for 2014 contention but not sign Fielder?

BDLugz
3 years 8 months ago

No one is claiming they shouldn’t/won’t sign free agents when they make sense.  No one is saying they are rebuilding only through the draft.  You’re putting your own spin on this that really doesn’t make any sense.

When the Cubs have a core that can compete where the FAs they sign are to put them over the top, not get them started is when they’ll be active in FA.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

You trade players specifically so you don’t have to build through the draft alone.  If you trade those players you don’t have to wait for those drafted guys to be competitive.

You’ve essentially got three choices:

1) Keep all of your player and sign a bunch of expensive free agents.  What you get in this case is a $200M payroll and 3rd place more often than not for the foreseeable future.

2) Trade your players and still sign big money free agents (why?).  What you get in this scenario is a $150-160M payroll and 4th place and maybe contention at some point, but the free agents you signed now will be older, expensive, and declining at that point so maybe you don’t.

3) Trade your players and don’t sign free agents.  What you get in this scenario is 5th place for a couple years and then a team that contends for the division title every year starting after that (this is when you sign free agents).

jb226
3 years 8 months ago

“and now that they have more funds to put into that MLB payroll, they decide to cut payroll and trade every valuable asset?”

If all that you mean by that is that they should sign Fielder, I would be okay with that.  I would be worried about the contract, but I wouldn’t be overly upset if it happened.

Beyond that, though, there is simply not much of value to buy.  Pujols (off the board) or Fielder, okay — risky contracts, but obviously quality players.  Beyond that, free agency just doesn’t offer what the Cubs need.  The Cubs need two front-end-quality starters, and in my opinion there wasn’t a single one of those available.  I’m not willing to pony up for CJ Wilson, and Mark Buerhle is a good pitcher but I don’t consider him a top-of-rotation starter.  Kuroda?  I suppose, but his contract isn’t likely to be long enough to carry him into the Cubs’ contention period, so unless you’re planning to sign him and flip him I don’t see the value.  And he’ll probably want a NTC to avoid exactly that.

Second, the team’s biggest need has NOT been a first baseman or a lefty slugger.  They need high-quality starting pitching.  Think of this: Zambrano is gone after this year and Dempster may very probably will be as well — that leaves basically nobody in the rotation.  Randy Wells, maybe.  Behind him?  Travis Wood, I guess.  Nobody knows if Cashner’s body can hold up to the rigors of starting.  Nobody knows if Carpenter can reign in the control and develop a decent third pitch to succeed as a starter.  Nobody knows what Trey McNutt might do — and he’s probably our best hope.  Dolis isn’t likely to be a starter.  In fact I think they may have given up on that already in the second half of last season.

Next year at least offers the HOPE of some good signings. Cole Hamels might be available; Matt Cain might be available; Zack Grienke (though I worry about him in Chicago) — all of those would be nice signings in an area of extreme need if they are not locked up before that.  Behind them you have a lesser tier of starters like Colby Lewis, Lirano, Blanton, and Jonathan Sanchez.  And I’m not including people like James Shields or Dan Haren who have options likely to be picked up, all of these guys are free agents absent an in-season extension.  If you want to spend big bucks–and I do agree that the CBA changes makes this more of a necessity–then next offseason is the time to do it.

Third, I actually agree with you on the timeline.  Two years may be optimistic, but I have been saying three as the time to turn this around for a while now, especially with the other teams in the division sliding backward a bit other than the Reds.  But there’s really nothing on this team, with the exception of Starlin Castro, that figures into those plans.  Who do you object to trading, exactly?  Soto?  He’s alright, but wildly inconsistent year-to-year and we have a couple catchers behind him who could also do a nice job.  First is empty, third is Stewart or empty, Soriano I’m assuming you would put on the first train out of town, Byrd is about to be a free agent (and he plays in the outfield where most of the Cubs’ minor league talent is anyway).  They don’t need to trade anybody like Cashner who might be around when the club contends and I don’t think that is part of the plan.  Everybody else could and should be dealt, though.  They hold no value to the Cubs as players, maybe they can provide some value as trade chips.

I guess what I’m saying is this: The Cubs aren’t very far from being completely blown up to begin with.  Might as well finish the job and purge anybody who is not likely to be with the team and productive three years from now.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago


Draft and international FA spending has been capped, a first in baseball. This means less money can go into those facets of building a team.”

Maybe this is just me, but wouldn’t that mean now is a GREAT time to start a rebuild by trading your few established veterans for prospects that won’t adversely affect said international and draft caps? If they just sit on these guys, they’re going to continue treading water until they’re free agents and then run the risk of either accepting a lesser haul or being subject to those new CBA regulations by settling for draft compensation.

tomymogo
3 years 8 months ago

Cubs need more than 1 player, they really need pitching. Can they sign Prince Fielder, Roy Oswalt, Edwin Jackson, and Ryan Madson. Then trade for a 3B.

Do they have so much money?

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

as a Cubs fan I agree 100% to this…any club that rebuilds needs a peice to work around some big bat and well to be honest the Cubs dont have one. now if we had Ramirez stil maybe but I believe the Cubs need Fielder so they can build the team around him. end of story

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Why?  If they try to get to a point where they can compete without trading away any of their good players it could take them years (and most, or all, of those player will be gone by then anyway), if it even happens at all.  If they trade away the few good players they do have it could have them in contention in 3-4 years.

QCCubsPerspective
3 years 8 months ago

That’s the theory. If that theory works. Right now, they didn’t get a lot for Marshall because of the Elias rankings. It was a decent cost controlled pitcher, at least so far. If they could trade Garza (and we’re not quite sure who’s the right trade partner), that certainly helps. But if they don’t get him traded by the end of the year, then it becomes a John Danks situation. And  we all saw what happened to him.

Furthermore, this isn’t the same situation that Theo inherited with your team. This is the Cubs, who despite larger spending in last year’s draft, have never had a core nucleus of picks come up and produce in MLB under Hendry. With Theo’s 1st draft, that could change but it could take 2015 for his picks to produce. This comes with the Cubs being in the 3rd largest media market and  with a fanbase  that draws nationally. The theory you speak of would be great if this team were the Royals or Rays and didn’t have as much media attention or fans. It’s not. It’s like asking the Dodgers, Yankees, or Red Sox to do this under  similar circumstances. You could argue the Mets are doing it, but their financial situation is different, especially next year with more bad Cubs’ contracts coming off the books. IMO, Theo renigs on his philosophy and by the beginning of 2014 signs $$ FAs, because he sees that draft and develop model alone won’t work for a big market team such as this. That kinda defeats building from the  ground up because I don’t forsee his core team being ready. I see lots of angry Cubs fans, mad because this team “tanked” it for 2 years, while, in the end Theo’s redoubles and signs $$ FAs anyway.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

That’s my exact point. They have the money to spend, and it’s even MORE money with amateur spending caps in-place. They’re just pretending they’re destitute and refusing to spend for whatever goofy reason.

When your route of team building won’t produce for 5-7 years, what’s the harm in giving a guy like Fielder 5-7 years of $18-22 million annually? I mean, the team has only one person making ACTUAL money after this season (Soriano).

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

If they can get Fielder for $16 mil a year, they’ll do it.  Right now he, thru his agent, are looking for 10/255.   Are you saying the Cubs should pay that?? 

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Umm…no one’s offering 10 years. No one’s even offering 8, maybe not even 7. They can SAY he’s aiming for that, but no one’s going to offer it.

laffingrass
3 years 8 months ago

So we can pay Fielder $20m/yr to play on our losing teams?

What a waste of money.

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

Not if he puts fans in the seats, and is in place for a run 3 years from now. The term ” waste of money” is one the Pirates use. The Cubs have money the money. Do you get a dividend if they don’t spend it now?

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

What money does it waste, the money Ricketts would spend on better nachos stands otherwise, if not pocket?

2011: $134 million payroll
2012 (pre-arb): $73 million
2013: $33 million
2014: $20.5 million
2015: $0

Payroll drops $61 million, $40 million, $12.5 million, and $20.5 million from the end of 2011 until now. The money’s not getting spent anywhere else, so why not use it to draw more people to the park and win a few more games?

Oh, and that doesn’t even count if they manage to move some of Soriano’s money, that Marshall WILL have his money removed, Byrd will draw interest, and Dempster and Zambrano could, perhaps Soto and Marmol as well.

They have the money. It’s not a waste to spend money you have on the stuff you need. It’s a waste of money to hoard it all in a bank vault and never spend it when you could clearly do much better by spending it.

aaron b
3 years 8 months ago

This is my biggest concern about this “story”. I have no problem dealing anyone off the roster per se.

My fear is that this is an expectation reset by the Ricketts. One where they get the fans prepared for 80-100 million dollar payrolls instead of 130-150 million dollar payrolls.

Bad news ANYWAY you try to spin that.

Khabibulan
3 years 8 months ago

It looks that way, but you are missing a couple of points.
1: right now, here is how the starting roster looks-
C-Soto
1b- Baker
2b- Barney
SS- castro
3b- Stewart
OF- soriano, de Jesus, Byrd

That’s a lot of bad. No power, little speed, poor OBP.
Pair that with a rotation of Garza, Dempster, zambrano; wells, cashner/t wood
Which is “complimented” by a Marshall-less relief core, and Wild Thing Marmol as your closer, and you are looking at an epically bad team. Now…trade away some of your more marketable pieces (garza, and I guess Byrd), and the team is so much worse. Granted; it won’t make a difference in the standing per se; but Cubs fans are pretty pissed about the last several seasons, and doing this drags down attendance to even worse levels (by cub standards).

So, then 2- Signing Fielder makes the team a little more competitive while getting fan interest back into the team. Nobody likes a total overhaul, especially from a team that hasn’t won a world series in 500 years. Fielder sparks interest, puts fans in the seats, and helps sell some stuff. Enough to cover the cost of fielder? Perhaps not. But enough to take the edge off.

I think we are overlooking the fact that the cubs can’t trade off their team and expect good players in return. Garza would bring in a nice haul. Castro would bring in a massive haul, but doesn’t make sense to deal him. After that, who is of any value? Friggin no one.

I say deal Garza, because the free agent pitching pool has little left, and it’s proving to be a sellers market. Sign Fielder, and sign E-Jax. Show the fans you are serious. I’m a White Sox fan, and am always amazed at Cubbie optimism. All you have ondo is dangle hope, and they will fill the seats.
With plenty of revenue + extra money from the masses, you can slowly buy pieces, while hoping some of the farm talent (including what you get for Garza) pans out….and you finally have the chance to be a perennial contender.

QCCubsPerspective
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, I’m beginning to wonder if someone forgot to tell Theo he needs to play out a big league season and forfeiting is not an option. I just hope that, if we trade Garza, we get a SP we can immediately insert into the starting rotation. I’m getting a little concerned  though with whom that trade might be. The Nats, Red Sox, and Rangers seem to be out of the discussion. 

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

They didn’t get much for Marshall?  They got multiple years of a starting pitcher plus two prospects for one year of a reliever…

I know it’s not the same situation as with the Sox; the Sox only required tweaking and were in contention a year later, with the Cubs he need to pull of a complete tear down and re-build.  If the Red Sox were as bad off as the Cubs (and had been that way for as long) I would be begging for a rebuild.

What Theo was hired to do was to turn the team into perennial contenders, not to make a run at the playoffs.  To do that they need to rebuild the team from the ground up; not only the team on the field, but the minor league system, the scouting and development guys, the coaching staffs, everything.

I’m sure he’ll end up spending money on free agents when he feels the team is ready to contend, but in the mean time there is no reason to hang on the the few good players they have only to delay the time until they are a contending team.

If they can trade 2-3 good major leaguers for 8-10 good-very good prospects their fans should be more than happy.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Yesh, I think Wood and a couple of prospects (depending on who they are) is a decent return. However, after seeing Adams draw two prospects ranked as B+ guys and top-10 prospects (both are top-5 in the SD system, according to John Sickels), it is understandable to be disappointed that you’re losing the RP with the highest WAR from 2010-2011.

BDLugz
3 years 8 months ago

You are way too attracted to prospects then.  Wood has a ceiling of a #3, much like Wieland in the Adams trade.  He also has 5 years of control left and over 200 innings of MLB baseball experience with some success (and some failures, but that’s to be expected in someone 24).

It’s also been reported that the two prospects in the trade are a B- and C rated prospect, so it’s not like they’re garbage.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

Reportedly Sappelt and Torreyes. Torreyes is tiny and young, but he’s off to a pretty nice start to his MiLB career so far. Sappelt doesn’t look too shabby either. Both of them were rated C+ prospects at pre-season and both put up great numbers following that ranking.

Not too shabby for a reliever with only one year left, honestly.

QCCubsPerspective
3 years 8 months ago

As long as he sticks to it and see those prospects through. As long as he doesn’t sign FAs before those prospects show productivity, then I’m ok with it. Problem is, in the end, I don’t think that’s how its going to turn out. The haul for Marshall is good but we’re still waiting for the names of those prospects to determine HOW GOOD it is…

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Theo was always very good at sticking to his plan, so unless you have some reason to believe that has changed I would expect him to stick to it.

QCCubsPerspective
3 years 8 months ago

So why did he spend the big bucks on Lackey and Crawford? He’s got a good young nucleus and clearly didn’t need either one of them.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Have you read anything that’s been said?  You sign big free agents once you have a nucleus in place.  The Cubs don’t have that, but once they do he will sign free agents to complement that nucleus.  Signing them now is backwards and a waste of resources.

QCCubsPerspective
3 years 8 months ago

Signing Crawford and Lackey to me is a waste as well. There’s a middle ground and Theo needs to find  it.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Lackey was a waste because he ended up sucking, but it wasn’t a bad move at the time (their biggest need was pitching and he was the best pitcher available), and it’s pretty much the same story with Crawford, only it’s way too early to say that the sucked/was a waste.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

Keith Law’s reporting Dave Sappelt and Ronald Torreyes.

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

As a Cubs fan Im disappointed with us rebuilding but i see the point everyone is making and it makes perfect sense.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

That’s a reasonable position; watching a losing team sucks, a lot, but it really is what’s best for the long term success of the team.

3 years 8 months ago

I like it myself.  We have a slow, non-OBP team with sporadic power.  I wouldn’t mind a bit of an overhaul and better positioning for 2014 and beyond.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

OVerhauling a roster doesn’t require tearing the whole thing apart.

Case in point: David DeJesus.

aaron b
3 years 8 months ago

I’m really pissed that Frank McCourt has bought the Cubs.

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

What you should be pissed at is it took a new owner to rid the team of Jim Hendry.  He’s left as bad an organization as you could possibly have.  The team, as it stands today, is going to spend $100+ mil, a little less than the Cards did on their team last year, and have almost nothing  that gives them any hope of winning 70 games.  The minors are almost as bad.  

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Their payroll is about $75 million, and that’s with guys who will draw trade interest, like Garza, Byrd, Soriano (with money eaten), Soto, and maybe Zambrano and Dempster.

The thing is, the Cubs aren’t cash-strapped. They can use finances to fix problems, while the Cardinals actually CREATED them with Pujols.

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

If payroll is $75 mil none of the arbitration guys, including garza, are added in.

Paying Pujols 8/111 created a problem for the Cards??  In those  8 seasons they only won 2 WS.  The Cubs paying Alfonso Soriano 8/136 created problems, and is still a problem, for the Cubs. 

How has spending, per cots, $144 mil and $134 mil the last 2 seasons worked out??   I’ll take the Cards ‘CREATED’ problems, and 2 WS rings…  

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

That $75M only includes 7 players.  If they don’t trade anyone else their payroll is likely to be higher than last year after arbitration raises and filling out the rest of their roster.

3 years 8 months ago

you don’t just troll on Pacer forums I see. It would be idiotic to spend in free agency this year we flat out suck. We need to trade everyone but Castro and rebuild this thing the right way. 

aaron b
3 years 8 months ago

Do you honestly feel that they can just pick up the pieces to contend once they “decide to” in one offseason?

What is wrong with signing a 27 year old offensive cornerstone now and rolling the dice?

No way that an MLB team that can handle 130-150 million dollar payrolls should ever pull a fire sale rebuild. The league isn’t set up that way for large markets.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, gut the team and don’t spend money. Why? Is it a better idea to just ignore FA, hoard the money, repel fans, and forcibly suck? They have the dollars, so spend them. I’m not saying max out the credit cards, I’m saying fill a need–Fielder is a MASSIVE need for a team with not lefty power or 1B.

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

I understand it is cherry picking stats

Fielder 2010: 32 HRs 83 RBI
C Pena 2011 28 HRs 80 RBI.

Ryan Braun doesn’t come with him.

And today, Dec 23, he is looking for 10/255.  You think it’s a bad idea to pass so far???

Khabibulan
3 years 8 months ago

Trade who? Besides Castro, Garza is the only guy who would net you anything worthwhile. And anyway, you can’t just trade everyone and hope to plug in the holes with minor leaguers and bottom-of-the barrel FAs. That’s just going to piss off a fanbase that’s already getting alienated.

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

i agree to a point i think there are a few young promising players (campana, cashner, barney(maybe))and also keep some players who have experience (DeJesus (good), Reed Johnson, Dempster (to help be a metor to young pitchers), and MAYBE Byrd) everyone else cold be traded to repleish the farm system the Hendry destroyed with over-hualed contracts and horrible trades

Lars Chunks
3 years 8 months ago

This is necessary while they still have players with trade value.  Their farm is a joke and needs a complete overhaul and this is the only way to do it. It will make it much faster and easier to rebuild than solely through the draft.

Taylor Haberle
3 years 8 months ago

Which makes total sense considering they just signed an aging reliever. 

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

i know man. they say they’ll rebuild, but then they go out and give a guy a one-year contract

truly confounding

jhfdssdaf
3 years 8 months ago

1 year contract makes sense.  He’s just there to fill out the 25 man roster while they accumulate prospects.

3 years 8 months ago

WHOOOOOOOOOOOSH

grownice
3 years 8 months ago

 Lmao biggest Whooooosh ever

bacboris
3 years 8 months ago

I agree, buying low so as to spin guys off at the deadline for a prospect or two is dumb.

Clearly they should… i don’t know dance a jig and whistle, rather than take advantage of any opportunities.

grownice
3 years 8 months ago

 Logic is fun!

3 years 8 months ago

I wouldn’t be mad if everyone on the ML roster but Starlin were dealt.

jammin502
3 years 8 months ago

Castro and Cashner.  Everyone else can go!  I am looking forward to seeing what LaHair can do.

3 years 8 months ago

Good point. Cashner could be a future closer.

imachainsaw
3 years 8 months ago

cashner is a starter. he went through the minors as a starter for a reason. so a rotator cuff injury is scaring you away from what was a promising front-end starter rising through the minors? get guts. closers are drastically less valuable to a team than a starter. which is why the rangers and reds came to their senses and settled on making their respective young stud arms starters.

3 years 8 months ago

Whoa. Simmer down. I do believe I wrote COULD. It’s also nice of you to assume that I feel this way b/c of a shoulder injury. We’re talking about a guy who has made ONE career start, and will most likely need ’12 to at least stretch himself out. I’m not sure if he’s been doing that this offseason, but even if he has, he’ll have to show that he can be a guy who makes quality starts, and doesn’t just take up a spot in the rotation because he throws hard and is 25. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Cashner working out of the pen in ’12 as a late-innings reliever or even setup man for Marmol.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

No, you don’t keep a guy with shoulder issues in case he’s a future closer. However, he could be a solid starter going forward, if he gets his arm strength up to more than one 6-inning start.

I mean, they have Chris Carpenter as a future closer, if they want.

3 years 8 months ago

So, a guy with shoulder issues is out of the question as a potential closer, but it’s okay to turn him into a starter? I think his pitching repertoire (throws hard, 3-pitch pitcher) lends to him being a pretty decent closer, if the Cubs ever went that route.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

No, making a guy an untouchable because he could close for a team you want to gut is my issue. I’m saying they should see how he does as a starter. There’s a reason to keep younger starters, but not so much with relievers (especially when you have an alternative like Carpenter).

3 years 8 months ago

Okay, I see. I honestly don’t think anyone is untouchable, but I guess Cashner is someone I’d like to see develop, mainly because we didn’t see much at all from him in ’11.

BDLugz
3 years 8 months ago

Dear lord, he doesn’t have “Shoulder issues,” he’s been injured once in his entire career.  It’s just as likely this is never an issue again as it is that it comes up in the future.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

doing it right

3 years 8 months ago

Who among the 29 teams is going to want Carlos Mármol?
He’s owed a cool 7 million in ’12 and almost 10 million in ’13.
The Cubs are going to have to eat a lot of that salary to get rid of him!

Soriano and Marmol to the O’s for Kevin Gregg
Cubs eat all of the salary the former Cubs
Duquette declares victory over the person who replaced him in Boston!

jhfdssdaf
3 years 8 months ago

If you want the prospects to rebuild, why wouldn’t the Cubs eat alot of salary?  They are going to pay the salary anyway, while getting little or no return.  Eat the salary, take the prospect.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

Marmol is far from being useless. He had a 3.54 FIP. Yes, he is a high wire act but he does a great job of erasing most of his BB’s with a crazy KO rate.

3 years 8 months ago

I hear you about the Strikeouts, but the guy self destructs and that’s bad for business when you’re a closer.

3 years 8 months ago

he is just being over used. He has pitched a ton of innings the past few years. If Dale can keep his innings in check I expect a rebound season and eventually a trade at the deadline.

Adam D
3 years 8 months ago

Chi City Sports misses you :(

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

That’s dumb. Really, Kevin Gregg? He’s the worst person in Cubs history to ever attempt a save…well, except maybe LaTroy Hawkins.

Marmol had one sketchy year, so 2/$27 million is too much for him when you see Paps getting about $50 million and Madson maybe in-line for $40 million?

Khabibulan
3 years 8 months ago

I think seeing Gregg in a Cubs jersey again would make 75% of Cubs fans jump off the Hancock Building.

3 years 8 months ago

I don’t want that to happen. That would be terrible.
However, it would be nice if Kevin Gregg played elsewhere in 2012.
I haven’t the foggiest what Showalter saw in him in the first place.

hscphillyboy
3 years 8 months ago

Bartman………….lol

Phillies_Aces35
3 years 8 months ago

Absolutely the right thing to do. I’d argue, with a lot of other people, that it should have been done sooner.

nats2012
3 years 8 months ago

MLB needs the amnesity rule like the NBA has now.

3 years 8 months ago

Or non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL. I’m sure the Yankees would’ve released Burnett 100 times by now.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

No, only for teams with payrolls under the luxury tax, or maybe under $125 million.

Teams that use their financial might to bully smaller teams deserve the filth they grab from the bowels of free agency.

3 years 8 months ago

Yeah…you clearly didn’t sense the sarcasm in my reply. I wasn’t trying to state that I somehow feel sorry for the Yanks or any other team (like the Cubs) who squander money on FAs.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

I was just saying that some teams who have money issues should maybe get an amnesty every 5-10 years or something. Just one, to keep small-market teams from getting crippled.

3 years 8 months ago

I get that point, but I don’t think that’d be fair. All of the teams have ample opportunity to evaluate talent and negotiate deals. I don’t think a small market team is necessarily at a disadvantage when it comes to this. It’d kinda be like giving the impoverished more time to pay their taxes, in my opinion. Well, I think that’s a comparable scenario, at least.

kptrojans
3 years 8 months ago

Complete rebuild? This is a complete destruction. Was Epstein brought in to create a winner or destroy this  organization completely, because he sure is DOING JUST THAT. Yeah, a complete rebuild, so in other words, for the next 5 years, nothing but the cellar, and close to 100 loses each year. Yeah that a boy Theo. What the heck was in that clam chowder he’s been munching on in Boston (go back, NOW).

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

Do you honestly think the Cubs can compete, even with adding Fielder?  They have a terrible rotation, bullpen, and no elite hitters.  This is exactly what they need to do.  I understand reacting negatively to hearing the news that your team is going to rebuild, but don’t bash the person making the right decision.  Like someone said up top, it should have been done earlier.

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

 If they had added Fielder and Beltran, together with Castro, they could have at least been respectable. Why does a major market team like the Cubs, need to whip themselves with a cat of nine tails, while waiting for the farm system to produce?

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

So you would spend another $200 mil + to be decent?

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

 As a Yankee fan, you should know.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, the Yankees are certainly “decent”

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

 That’s what also-rans get to call themselves.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

What?

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

That statement was mystifying?
Definition of DECENT
1
archaic a : appropriate b : well-formed : handsome
2
a : conforming to standards of propriety, good taste, or morality

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Calling the Yankees “decent” and an also-ran is ridiculous. 

Teams that make the post season (especially ones that make them essentially every year) are not also-rans.

The Orioles are also-rans, the Royals are also-rans, the Cubs are also-rans, the Yankees are not also-rans.

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

 To call any team but the champion, an also-ran, is completely appropriate.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

No it’s not, it’s ridiculous, and it’s also not the way the term is generally used.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

Haha….I see what you’re trying to do. How smart of you. Trying to compare a team that hasn’t won a WS in a century vs 1 that’s won 6 in the last 15 years. Or better, trying to compare a team that barely makes it to the PLAYOFFS in 3 times in the last 20 years vs one that has made it about 15x in the same period. Wow…how irrelevant you are.

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

 So spending money pays off? Yeah, not my point at all. D.S.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Quick, name the 2-3 best position players on the Yankees the last two years.

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

OK I’ll respond to your demand like an organ grinder monkey you A.W.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

The correct answer was “Cano, Gardner, and Granderson.”  Two guys who came up through the Yankees’ system (and are cheap) and one guy who was traded for by the Yankees using prospects they drafted and developed (and who is relatively cheap).

Yep, it’s definitely spending all that money that keeps them in contention.

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

and they spent big to land Texeria, Rodriguez, and  Sabathia, among others.  Again. the point is that it takes both expensive free agents and prospects to build a consistent winner.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

But big free agents without (or before you have) a good farm is nothing but a huge waste of money.

3 years 8 months ago

The yankees arent simply spending. Cano, joba, hughes, nova, used prospects for granderson, buenelos betances comming. 

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

boom. roasted

3 years 8 months ago

i’m a jays fan defending the yankees, but no. the yankees spend $200mill+ to be the best team in the AL over the past 5 years.

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

Wow.  Respectable.   Nothing like aiming for 79-83.  

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

But 61-101 is what the high ticket price paying fans deserve?

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

You are saying Cub fans want a team that will finish 79-83 every year??   I’d take 61-101, only 10 games worse than 2011, with hope for the future instead of 79-83 for eternity.  But maybe Cub fans a satisfied with 79 wins…

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

 So how many tickets are you buying for that 61 win season?

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

Same as last year.  How many tickets are they going to sell in 2015  coming off 6 straight 70 ish win seasons???

3 years 8 months ago

exactly, the smart fans will come out to games, you do have to. But u can show up when we are perennial winners lol i wont mind.  when we are 90+ winners from 2014-2024 then see how many tickets we make up

3 years 8 months ago

OMG the yankees have produced home grown talent to supplement their spending. I knew cubs fans would overreact to the word rebuild. The cubs are just simply gathering prospects for their current short term assets into long term assets. if we added darvish and fielder we would still sucks. Cubs fans need to take a look in the mirror. The team is over paid, slow, old, cant play defense, BUT hey, marlon byrd runs around the bases FAST so we should love him. pshh. Major market teams cant buy wins. Not even the yankees. When you band aid a horrible team. You have a chance to be a flash in the pan…sure is that what you want? 1 hit wonder. 2005 white sox. That tried it again, nabbing adam dunn, peavy, rios, nick swisher. Now look at them..A COMPLETE MESS. 

jb226
3 years 8 months ago

If they had added Fielder and Beltran, they would be back to where they were last year — maybe a win or two above. Beltran is no significant improvement over Ramirez and plays a position where the Cubs actually have hope of being able to insert some minor league talent.  Fielder is a clear improvement over Pena, but he does not turn this team into anything good.  We still have NO starting pitching, very little of which was ever available this offseason.

There’s no point.  If we’re going to suck either way I’d rather suck slightly harder and get the better draft pick.  This team is not a couple signings away from contention.  If you wanted to do it entirely through free agency I would say we are four MAJOR deals away (1B, 3B, 2xSP with high-end talent at least) — and half of that was not even available.

Adam D
3 years 8 months ago

the bullpen’s avg…the starters are avg…the offense is dreadful.

cubs223425
3 years 8 months ago

It’s not a matter of competing by signing Fielder. It’s a matter of having a major building block there for nothing but cash (and a comp. pick) and getting it. It expediates the rebuilding process when you can get a franchise cornerstone without touching your farm.

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

“Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports suggests agent Scott Boras is “gunning for” an average salary of $25.5MM for Prince Fielder”

8/204.  You in??

3 years 8 months ago

It is at the expense of you farm. It takes a pick.paying now would be pointless. Fielder doesnt change the team and isnt a building block in 2014-2020 hes gonna be the soriano, in fact, a FAT soriano that we cant wait to get off the books. BUT WAIT he had a great 5 year run from 2012-15

jhfdssdaf
3 years 8 months ago

Because Hendry’s method was bringing home the World Championships.

The Cubs have Castro, Garza, a prospect in Jackson, and NOTHING ELSE.  A complete rebuild is their only hope.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

this is epstein’s biggest obstacle frankly: people like you who are in complete denial about the state of the cubs franchise. trained well by hendry’s madness, many of you think you are a few big contracts away from competing again

but you aren’t. the cubs are a mess and — listen close — hicks did not hire epstein to make a run a title. he was hired to rebuild the entire organization so that the cubs became perennial contenders, a team that makes a run every year. that takes time. it takes a young core of talent and a strong farm & development system behind it. to get there, you have to lose for awhile and build from the bottom-up. then and only then should the cubs use their financial clout to bring in top free agent talent and extend young talent developed within

i know this concept is foreign and scary, but if you can just shut yourself up for a bit, you’ll very much enjoy the long-term results

3 years 8 months ago

couldn’t have said it better, notsureifsrs. the fact that it’s gotten to this stage shows just how badly hendry mishandled the organization

Joshua Edwards
3 years 8 months ago

Most teams can’t spend what the Cubs can. If you’re a Pitt/Oak/SD/TB fan, enjoy building your team. You have no choice.

If you’re a big market team you pay for proven players WHILE building a team. 

At the top end of estimates, Cubs are committed to 90 million for 2012. But most expected them to spend about the same as last year: $135 million.

The Cubs can’t find enough pieces for 45 million to at least have a chance to win in 2012?

A lot of teams don’t have PAYROLLS of 45 million!

There’s no rule that says you have to build cheap to win. There’s nothing that says you have to develop a rookie into a stud across three seasons. 

Let a loser develop him on the cheap. Buy the stud. Get his best five years. (Age range: 27-32 years old is good prime rib)

Because last I checked, the Cubs can outspend the NL Central by a margin of the Pittsburgh Pirates. 

So why can’t Hoyer & Co. work a little magic with more leftover payroll than Jed had total in San Diego?

Because when fans fork over 43 bucks a ticket to watch their team lose they certainly don’t have to shut up.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

no one said they have to shut up. they are welcome to stomp their feet and insist that they be able to have their cake and eat it too. but it’s just not possible

you say “let the small markets enjoy building their clubs; they have no choice”

again, this is what you all don’t understand: you don’t have a choice either. if it’s a perennial contender you want, you simply can’t have it both ways.  building that kind of club is incredibly difficult and it takes a farm system you do not yet have

let’s say you keep all the guys you have now and “buy the stud”, as you suggest. spend money because you have money. with a mediocre roster, you’re a winning club in 2012 but ultimately lose to one of several better teams in the end. in the meantime your farm gets no better (could get worse), you won’t trade players that help the team in the present and you have no prospects to trade for talent either so you’re now entirely dependent on free agency. you’re forced to overbid on talent to even stay competitive and in a few years the ship will be sunk by bad contracts and inflexibility

your name is jim hendry and you are a failure. we know how that story ends. we are at the end of that story right now

what you have to do now is what theo epstein already did in boston. build from the bottom up

Joshua Edwards
3 years 8 months ago

Theo inherited a team with Pedro, Varitek and Manny that won 93 games in 2002.

They never lost less than 86 games in his entire tenure.

That’s not ground up. The Red Sox never rebuilt. Theo worked on the farm system AND contended for 9 years. 

He has less to spend now but has the same plan in Chicago. 

“Total rebuild” is a bluff, the same as “Cubs were hopeful until the end on Pujols/Darvish bidding.”

Bluffs. Misdirection. Garbage reporting. 

Paying $135 million for another 70-game winner? Now THAT’S hard to believe.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

You’re right about what Theo inherited in Boston, but he doesn’t have the same luxury this time around.  He doesn’t have the core in place to build around and, as you already noted, he doesn’t have the same money to spend either.

Joshua Edwards
3 years 8 months ago

That’s fair. I just don’t know how we’re going to spend 45 million dollars more to lose. I don’t get it.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

They shouldn’t.  they have guys who can be traded without having to pay their contracts and would still bring back good amounts of talent.  Obviously they have some player that they would have to eat money if they want to get anything worth while for them, but if it means success in the future that should be something that they are willing to do.

They could trade Garza without sending any money, they could trade Soriano and save a couple $M, they could trade Zambrano and save probably $8-9M, they could trade Dempster and save a few $M, they could trade Byrd and save a couple $M, they could probably trade Soto without sending any money.  And get decent-to-good prospects for some of those guys, and top prospects for at least one of them.

3 years 8 months ago

Think what you will, but it’s definitely not garbage reporting. Kaplan is one of the best sportswriters in Chicago, if not thee best. He wouldn’t write something like that unless he had credible reason to. 

Joshua Edwards
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, that’s harsh, I actually like Kaplan. 

I should have said, “garbage report” because I think he’s being used, unintentionally or not, to spread a team message. He may believe what he writes. But he could still be wrong.

Ask Nick Cafardo of Boston how many times he’s been “wrong” on behalf of Team Epstein, spreading (mis)information.

And whether Kaplan is a sucker for believing the leak or he knew what he was doing, I suspect the idea of a “complete and total rebuild” is a garbage report. 

Ask yourself, why would any team want that to be known? How does it help?

I don’t think it adds up.

And I don’t think Team Epstein is fond of putting a 70-game winner on the field in his first year. 

Rah. Fight. Meh.

3 years 8 months ago

Well, you do have a point. It doesn’t add up. It’s definitely not an advantage to have teams know you’re rebuilding. But that’s what leads me to believe Kaplan’s source wasn’t in the Cubs organization and Theo isn’t trying to feed information to a popular sportswriter to somehow bluff the public and fans. 

Epstein is obviously a pretty shrewd baseball executive. He’s made it clear that he intends to be, not necessarily unconventional, but unpredictable, so much so that the only thing that seems to be certain is his willingness to make unpopular decisions. What makes him such a great exec though, is that he’s the kind of guy to establish plan and execute it ruthlessly. That said, while I wouldn’t put the idea of him leaking info to deek the media past him, I don’t think he’s quite that nefarious. 

Probably the only scenario that makes any kind of sense is the original premise of Kaplan breaking a story with the help of an annonymous MLB source, which I think may be some other general manager that has a good relationship with Epstein and Kaplan, perhaps from one of the teams the Cubs have recently been discussing various trade proposals with, maybe Jocketty or Daniels?
That’s just me speculating of course, but I think the report is genuine, and really when you examine the idea, it makes a ton of sense for Theo to really go all in with the idea of bringing a World Series, I mean God Particle, to Chicago. Theo knows he’s going to constantly be a lightning rod in Chicago, win or lose, and that he’ll eventually be either exiled and banished from Chicago or have an entire half of the city named after him if he actually does manage to do the impossible. So what better way to begin the first year of the rest of his career than by trying to clean the slate as much as you can. If you’re gonna take the heat, you might as well own it. 

And I agree Theo wouldn’t just toss out some 70-win ballclub on the field in his first year in Chicago. That’s why I’m really curious to see how the dominoes fall. Even if it is true that the team is rebuilding that doesn’t mean he’s dead set on tossing absolutely everyone on the team off the ship, nor does it preclude them from making a move for a big piece in an unexpected situation. 

I mean, it couldn’t hurt. At this point, I’d be interested in voodoo or getting a bunch evangelical players and hiring Tim Tebow to be the team’s spiritual guru. 

Light that Molotov and let’s set this sucker ablaze.

Khabibulan
3 years 8 months ago

Does theo have experience building from the ground up?

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

If you and I had the power to make it happen I’d take Epstein back in an instant.

matt78311
3 years 8 months ago

Going to start off by saying that I am not a Cubs fan. With that said I really dont see why Cubs fans seem so negative about this move. They were clearly going nowhere anytime soon with their current roster. Even if they added fielder they would still be at best a .500 team. This way they can hopefully trade Garza for a couple of high ceiling prospects who will be ready to contribute when the Cubs have shed all of their bad contracts in a few years. I also don’t understand why everyone assumes that no one else on the cubs roster has any value. Dempster and Marmol both had very disapointing seasons last year but if they have good first halves to the season I’m sure they can find a contender who can use them for a playoff run. Marmol’s contract is not that bad and if he rebounds to his previous numbers I think he could bring a pretty good prospect or two back. As far as Soriano, your just screwed unless they pay about $40-$45 million to get rid of him. Also, if you think about it, when the Cubs have shed all of their bad contracts and traded their more expensive players in the next two years that means they will have about $100 million to spend in free agency assuming they keep their payroll level where it currently is.

aaron b
3 years 8 months ago

Every contract other than Soriano and 1 year of Marmol is over after this year. Crying poverty is garbage.

3 years 8 months ago

LOL did Cubs fans really think Theo was just going to snap and fingers, and *poof!* 100 wins? Your team is terrible right now. A few FA signings won’t make it a contender. Yes, I can only imagine the plight and struggles involved in being a Cubs fan, but you still need to look at things realistically.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

“….
nothing but the cellar, and close to 100 loses each year”.

ummmm….91 loses last year when they were “competing”. This team has tons of dead weight and not enough talent. Getting rid of vets who aren’t going to be good or on the team in 2 or 3 years makes sense. Why plug holes that will leak again in 2013 when you can rip it all down and lay new foundation and lay piping. Yes…..I did manage to say “lay piping”. Cue the cheesy porn music now.

nictonjr
3 years 8 months ago

Is it really a destruction??  They’re knocking down a house that’s been burnt to the ground.  No sense putting wall paper on a house with no walls.  The Cubs are bad from the majors to AA.  Once you get below that, there’s a slight glimmer….

3 years 8 months ago

I wouldn’t say he’s wrecking a house that’s already burnt down. More like lighting a match in a meth house.

3 years 8 months ago

you have no idea how smart you sound saying theo go back to boston.
 

bobbybaseball
3 years 8 months ago

You must be joking, right? You see how well the Jim Hendry way of doing things worked out for us, didn’t you? Trust Theo and his posse, they know what they are doing. They didn’t have to do this in Boston because when Theo took over it was a 93 win team with a stronger farm system. We have no major-league ready “stars” in our system. Brett Jackson may eventually be a solid average regular, but he strikes out way too much to be considered a star.

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

chil man think about it after he builds the team up the team will contend for years to come who else in the divison will be able to contend after we get a core nucleus

Brewers: will be getting older have alot of signings that will be old in a few years

Cardinals: will be getting older plus they keep signing older players

Reds: players will be just leaving the peaks of their careers

Pirates: they always suck and now the have a bunch of contracts that may end up being bad for them when the Cubs become great

so in the end the Cubs can contend for years to come if they rebuild

Casor_Greener
3 years 8 months ago

Sure the Astros lost a bunch of games but I just don’t see how the Cubs are that much better, especially considering those horrible contracts for next year.

So if the Cubs can be ready by 2014 so can my Stros.

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

I don’t really know what the Astros have going for them.  Do they have any top prospects?  And if they have one, do they have two?

Casor_Greener
3 years 8 months ago

Cosart and Singleton from the Phillies. Supposedly Jordan Lyles, DeShields, and maybe JD Martinez will surprise the pack.  Same b.s. hopes that everyone else pins on their prospects so I don’t see why the Astros are any different.

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

Because the Astros are always ranked last in farm systems.  They have no major league talent, and barely any minor league talent.  With Wade gone, that could easily change.  So far, I like the Melancon trade.

3 years 8 months ago

You like trading a young, developing, talented closer for a pitcher who will be out of baseball in three years and a back up infielder?

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

Weiland has a back-of-the-rotation ceiling and a major league reliever floor, and Lowrie is likely a good-not-great starter if he stays healthy.

I still think Boston came out on the winning end when all is said and done, but it isn’t nearly as one sided as you make it out to be.

3 years 8 months ago

The Sox made a great deal. No guys with no value to their team shipped off for a closer with a great future. As a Yankees fan, I hope Melancon does well. But then again, I also hope he blows every game.

Didn’t think about what I said. I should have said, the Astros made out well. They just acquired their Opening Day starter, and their number three hitter. Hahaha.

Jntg4
3 years 8 months ago

Astros will be in the AL then though, pretty big disadvantage.

MaineSox
3 years 8 months ago

The difference is that the Cubs have 2-3 players they can trade for good hauls of prospects, which jump starts their rebuilding by several years.

kptrojans
3 years 8 months ago

Not just an againg reliever, but an again reliver still recovering from TJ surgery. This is STUPID. They should have kept Henry, he was doing good enough, keeping them out last place. Theo’s directing them to last place.

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

for now but once again look at the long term and not the short term…jeez do you know anything about baseball

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

Sort of nitpicking, but I don’t see how you can consider Byrd’s contract to be an albatross.

leachim2
3 years 8 months ago

Well if they do trade Castro I find the padres to be a great fit. Maybe Rizzo, Gyorko, Decker, Blanks, and Simon Castro.

3 years 8 months ago

What are the Padres going to do with Castro? They stink too!

Drew Tweedie
3 years 8 months ago

Ideally Padres will be contending sooner than the Cubs.

3 years 8 months ago

Hahahaha…you’re right there is always the Ideal.
Maybe the Padres and Cubs should have a merger?

Drew Tweedie
3 years 8 months ago

Haha, “Life of Brian” taught me to be positive. Ehhh, I’d much prefer the Mariners if I had the choice.

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

I don’t think so.  Castro is an average only hitter with terrible defense.  Way over-rated, IMO.

3 years 8 months ago

He’s also only 21.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

easily the best thing about him

3 years 8 months ago

Well, there is the term “upside”…

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

I’m not saying he doesn’t have upside.  I’m saying he’s over-rated, which I think is fairly obvious.

3 years 8 months ago

How exactly is he overrated? Do “experts” consider him elite already? I think even the most gullible Cubs fan would at the most say he’s very good.

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

Really?  Are you a cub’s fan?  I always hear about how great he is, one of the best in the league, for sure (that BA sure is nice!).  Fact remains he’s a good contact hitter with a little power (that could very well develop) who can’t play shortstop.

3 years 8 months ago

I’m not a Cub’s fan. I am a Cubs fan, though. And if you’re gonna base your opinion off of others’ clearly biased opinions, I don’t know what to tell ya.

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

Debate done.  When you have to bow down to changing one minor grammatical mistake in my post, it proves you have nothing else of substance to say.

3 years 8 months ago

This was a debate? You said he’s overrated because of a few biased opinions? Lose the GOP debate strategy, friendo…

GaryLeeT
3 years 8 months ago

You’re right. 20 year old (at the time) 2nd year players with over 200 hits in a season, are a dime a dozen.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

that’s what i meant. it wasn’t an insult. most 21 year olds are doing well if they hit like castro has…in AA

3 years 8 months ago

Ah, I gotcha. 

BlueCatuli
3 years 8 months ago

Bad opinion…

John McFadin
3 years 8 months ago

Please explain.  Does he have good defense?  Does he walk any?  What?

BlueCatuli
3 years 8 months ago

Most people his age are developing in the minor leagues. He’s doing it while leading the league in hits.

Jntg4
3 years 8 months ago

1. He’s 21
2. Take any college SS and put them in the MLB, they’ll make errors too, Castro is the age of a college Senior.
3. He hit 10 HR last year, pretty good for a 21 year old.
4. He is a pretty good base-stealer too.

3 years 8 months ago

What does age have to do with power?

Jntg4
3 years 8 months ago

Typically, unless the player is just a pure hitter, the player will develop more and get stronger and hit more homers when they reach their prime, which Castro is years away from.

vtadave
3 years 8 months ago

A lot actually. As guys acclimate to the big leagues, they get stronger, faster, and often quicker at the plate. They work with better coaches in better facilities. Plenty of projectability in a guy with Castro’s body type, particularly given he’s still just 21.

Maybe an extreme example, but Shawn Green hit ONE home run in over 400 at-bats as a 19 year-old.

Six years later: 35
Three years after that: 49

3 years 8 months ago

I definitely get your point, but I just don’t think power can be directly associated to a player’s age. I think body type plays a factor, too. I’m not sure if Castro will ever hit for that much power. I see him being a guy who hits 40+ 2Bs a year, though.

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

Starlin Castro is one of the pecies that will stay with the Cubs just saying

3 years 8 months ago

about damn time to tear it down and do it right buyin it has never worked for them!!

3 years 8 months ago

and garza can be suspect himself on a day to day basis

Kevin Spry
3 years 8 months ago

as an actual cubs fan, who is used to losing and knows what it takes to win (just kidding).  this is refreshing.  no one on this team outside of Castro is worth keeping.  Deal what you can now, sign the missing pieces between ’12 and ’13 and you will have a great team and farm system from there on out.  for the cubs fans talking bad about a general manager who is actually managing an organization to win and not appease the idiotic fanbase, shut up. 

if you want the cubs to win, its not going to happen in ’12.  build a base and grow a team. when was the last time a team won a championship by signing all the top free agents? i didnt see the red sox or phillies in the world series last year.

3 years 8 months ago

You’re right, but the NL Central is a lot easier to buy than the AL or NL East

disgustedcubfan
3 years 8 months ago

Agreed. Everyone should be available.  Garza will never be more valuable than he is today.  I think the Yankee and the Blue Jays should be Theo’s first calls.  Getting a haul of prospects in return, before spring training, is the way to go.
If Garza comes up with a sore shoulder or elbow, then it’s too late. 

meinhardt1992
3 years 8 months ago

the thing that bothers me is that no one seems to think that campana is any good

firealyellon
3 years 8 months ago

File under: no shlit, Sherlock (it’s been 103 years)

jhfdssdaf
3 years 8 months ago

Dig deeper, Watson!

3 years 8 months ago

hope u mean 1 or 2 names out of those 5 u named because theres no way the padres would give up all 5 lol..

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Good decision, that’s what I suggested here months ago. That’s what they should’ve planned going in to the winter meetings.

Get as many prospects as possible, get rid of bad contracts and let the young players get experience. Build group up and Cubs will succeed!

No more Fielder sweepstake is a good decision by cubs FO.

$21002046
3 years 8 months ago

Maybe as his market continues to shrink. along with the length of his contract, the Prince of Pork will put the fork down and get a dietician and a trainer.

OaklandFan22
3 years 8 months ago

welcome to the club cubbie fans

hombre1
3 years 8 months ago

they started the club