Bidding For Yu Darvish Ends Wednesday

6:22pm: The Nationals have interest in Darvish, writes Adam Kilgore of the Washington Post. GM Mike Rizzo didn't divulge whether the Nats plan to bid, but his refusal to comment suggests to Kilgore that they will.

4:50pm: Now that Darvish has been posted, teams will have until 4:00pm CST on December 14th (four business days) to submit bids, tweets Buster Olney.

12:40pm: The Yankees are unsure about whether they'll bid on Darvish, tweets Buster Olney.  He considers their interest lukewarm.  I think everyone's playing coy at this stage; we'll see where the bids were when the dust settles.  By the way, Tigers GM Dave Dombrowski said this week he will not be bidding on Darvish, according to Jason Beck.

11:07am: The Dodgers won't be bidding on Darvish, tweets Dylan Hernandez of the L.A. Times, but A's assistant GM David Forst wouldn't rule it out in talking to Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle.  Evan Grant of the Dallas Morning News hears the Rangers aren't willing to gamble $100MM on Darvish.  The Red Sox will discuss Darvish but feel pretty good about the front end of their rotation already, GM Ben Cherington told reporters.

4:56am: Following the announcement last night that the Nippon-Ham Fighters will post ace Yu Darvish, Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports write that the Rangers, Blue Jays, and Yankees are all expected to bid on the Japanese righty. ESPN's Buster Olney also tweets that rival executives are expecting both the Rangers and Blue Jays to bid big Darvish, with the Rangers fueled by the expected loss of C.J. Wilson to the Angels or Marlins.

Rosenthal and Morosi write that the Red Sox could be a wild card for a big Darvish bid, as new manager Bobby Valentine, who saw Darvish first-hand many times as manager of the Chiba Lotte Marines from 2004-2009, is said to "love" the 25-year old. FOX's duo also note that both Blue Jays GM Alex Anthopoulos and Rangers GM Jon Daniels saw Darvish pitch in Japan last season.

The posting period will last four days, and the winning team will have a 30-day exclusive negotation period with Darvish and his representatives Don Nomura and Arn Tellem. If a contract agreement cannot be reached between Darvish and the winning team, that team will be refunded the total of the posting fee.

Tim Dierkes and Luke Adams contributed to this post.


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288 Comments on "Bidding For Yu Darvish Ends Wednesday"


ukJaysfan
3 years 8 months ago

Not holding my breath on Toronto being the top bidder here.  Would be interesting to see him with the Jays, but I’m betting they hold back.

3 years 8 months ago

 More than likely.  It’s really why I was hoping Wilson would sign with Texas.  It’s always tough to know what other teams will bid, though.

3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, this just doesn’t seem plausible. Yet, every JP Morosi tweet says the Jays are in on it. I’ll wager it’s likely because AA kicks the tires on everyone, and eventually JP Morosi is going to get one right.

3 years 8 months ago

according to this article it says the redsox,bluejays nor the rangers are going to bid for him. and its unlikely the yankees do. just tells me the yanks are happy with what they have. hmm guess ill be ready for another long post season in watching other teams in the ALCS.

drumzalicious
3 years 8 months ago

i dont think thats what it means. I think they know they need another pitcher at the top of their rotation they just are skeptical about someone who’s never pitched in the mlb.

jjs91
3 years 8 months ago

It’s not like their pitching cost tem the ws last year. Their hitters just werent hot. 

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Unless Rogers continue being cheap.

So much talk from Beeston about payroll climbing to $120 when they want it to. If they don’t bid big, it will be frustrating for entire fanbase to trust their words again. It feels as though Rogers is holding their hands from spending.

The payroll comments from Beeston / AA over the last few days have created a wierd situation for the fans.

ukJaysfan
3 years 8 months ago

Not to sound like an apologist, but Beeston and Anthopolous have always said the money is available when they are in a position to contend.  The problem we have, is that most Jays fans take that to mean ‘blank cheque, here we go ASAP’.  I still drink the koolaid, I think they will continue to add the best talent possible as they go along – they just won’t be dropping any massive Wellsian contracts anytime soon.  Just look at the 2011 White Sox payroll – look what that got them – better yet, look at the 2012 White Sox! (although no way can Dunn be that bad 2 years in a row.)

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

You dont think the time to contend is NOW?

– Best hitter in baseball in his prime
– 81 Win besides playing 4 bench calibre player last season
– 81 Win besides blowing up 25 saves opportunities
– Solidied 3B with Lawrie, CF with Rasmus
– No holes in lineup
– Another wild card opening
– Established closer in Santos
– Farm system is at it’s peak

They get Darvish, they get another impact bat behind Bautista, they are very well a contenders.

We have been in a complete rebuild mode for past 2 years and it’s time to take a step forward.

If there ever is time to contend, it’s now.

ukJaysfan
3 years 8 months ago

Sorry, I just don’t see it.  When I look at Boston and New York, I see perennial All Star candidates at nearly every position.  I only see a handful with the Jays.  And a lot of those BOS/NY stars were homegrown.  We’re getting there, I just don’t see it happening this year. Not enough to warrant splashing out on massive free agent contracts that could just as easily hang us as they could help us.

I do agree with several of your points though.  There’s just too many variables that have to go in favour of the Jays to turn  81 wins into 95+.

3 years 8 months ago

A lot of these “perennial all star candidates” (if being an all star really means anything) are now old, broken, or are not as good as everyone thought they was.  The time to compete is now, and in the next coming years.

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Agree.

PS like your avatar!

slider32
3 years 8 months ago

Check the War of the Jays players compared to the Sox and Yanks, add them up and it won’t be close. Yes, and don’t forget the Rays there pitching gives them a chance.

johnsmith4
3 years 8 months ago

Yep…I have been looking at WAR and WAR projections on Fangraphs.  Right at this point, Jays match up with Rays and Yankees are within sight.  However, Red Sox are way too far ahead.

vincentjulian
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah but did the WAR projections take into consideration beers and fried chicken consumed per game?

tdot32
3 years 8 months ago

yeah, and boston didn’t make the playoffs. it’s not like numbers are set in stone, especially with younger players who have potential to improve. the jays could have a chance, stranger things have happened.

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

The only perennial All Star candidates I see in Yankees are Cano, Granderson and C.C. Rest are old and overpaid.

Jays have Bautista, Romero, Lawrie (if you believe) and Escobar. That’s a pretty good core.

Now consider better seasons from Rasmus and Kelly Johnson who clearly had down years then Jays aren’t that far behind.

Rays won the WC on the basis of strong pitching and Evan Longoria. There is no doubt Jays can replicate that or do even better.

stresspuppy
3 years 8 months ago

agree with most points. i do think feel that Rays got the wc as much due to the Bosox collapse as playing well down the stretch. but that is to your a point about NYY’s (and Bosox to some extent) aging players. as a NYY fan, i do hope that the recent lack of trades is hopefully a good sign of holding onto young homegrown players.

3 years 8 months ago

i agree, i rather see them go with players in their minor league system rather then trade for older players. although a trade for Gio or Cahill would be nice but out of reach with what the A’s want so those trades will never happen. but i would like to see betances and banuelos start in the majors and hope hughes has a bounce back year.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

“Rays won the WC on the basis of strong pitching and Evan Longoria. There is no doubt Jays can replicate that or do even better.”

ALL of those things were developed internally, yet you’re arguing for AA to go out there and throw money at their problems which almost NEVER works for anyone but the largest or large market teams. The Red Sox are already facing the consequences of the Lackey and Matsuzaka deals, the Phillies will be feeling the squeeze sooner rather than later and while it won’t ever cripple the Yankees, guys like A-Rod and Jeter are going to be a big burden in due course yet you think they should replicate that model?

The Rays sat at the bottom of the standings for years before they turned it around and while AA is a trade wizard, he hasn’t yet shown Friedman’s ability to draft and develop talent because that’s something that takes years to come to fruition. And while yes, the Rays won the WC on the basis of strong pitching and Longoria, there was a third factor that played just as big of a role and that was the collapse of the Red Sox (And the Angels fading down the stretch, a lot of people forget that the Angels were in the thick of things until about the last week of the season), something almost entirely out of the Rays’ hands, AND the Yankees basically rolling over in that last game of the season. Despite having phenomenal pitching and a young core of well developed players, the Rays had to rely upon one of the biggest and most unexpected collapses in sports history to occur and then they got knocked out in the first round anyway. The 2011 Rays were a good story and a solid team, but they were never a playoff caliber team.

Adding payroll isn’t going to fix the Jays’ problems, patience and smart front office maneuvering is what will fix the Jays’ problems. You yourself have already said that the Jays have an excellent lineup, their problem is that their pitching is awful and you can’t fix an awful pitching corps by throwing money at it, especially in this day and age where premium pitching costs a nine figure deal and shows up once every two years at best.

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Jays didn’t have 10 years of losing seasons to get high picks.

Hech they have been hovering around mediocroty for a while now. Obiously, Jays can’t imitate what the Rays have done because they simply don’t have that many picks.

Jays have what Rays dont, money to spend and boost their chances of contention higher and earlier.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

They have much more money than the Rays, yes, but they don’t have unlimited funds, nor can they buy players from other teams.

The Jays’ biggest problem is their pitching. The Red Sox and Yankees, despite having two of the largest payrolls in the MLB, have that same problem. The Jays, despite having a decent budget, do not have the revenue stream to compete with the Sox and Jays financially, nor do they have the history to lure players for lower salaries.

If the Red Sox and Yankees can’t just fix their rotation by throwing money around, what makes you think the Blue Jays can?

3 years 8 months ago

that is true, the JAys cant. seems all the players want to go to the angels or marlins lol. but me bein a yankee fan, i like how the rays and jays are working things. i rather see the yankees use their own farm to build a team rather then pay big contracts like they did with Arod and AJ

3 years 8 months ago

how is trading homegrown soriano for arod not using their own farm to build a team?

johnsilver
3 years 8 months ago

“he 2011 Rays were a good story and a solid team, but they were never a playoff caliber team.”

You are gonna catch some flack from the Rys fans if any swing by and see that and u know what?? I 100% agree with it..

That team may have had world class pitching, but other than Longoria.. They were a AAA and AAAA 1-8.

I have to give you credit for bringing that up, something even my ‘big mouth” has avoided all off season….

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

It’s kind of hard to argue with any real temerity. The Rays stunk out loud just as hard as the Red Sox to start the season and they basically treaded water for the majority of the season. How easily they were bounced from the playoffs helps prove the point that they were never really a great team, merely a good team that rode a hot streak and even with that hot streak, they had to rely on another team completely imploding.

Even their hot streak wasn’t exactly monumentally impressive like the Rockies’ ’07 run (20-8 September whaaaaat?). They went 6-4 over their last ten and were only a game better than the Yankees over the last month and the Yankees were basically getting ready for the playoffs for the last few weeks. They had a great August and September, but nothing historic. They had to rely on a team that went .660 for the months of May through August to go .350 for the final month in order to make the playoffs. The only thing particularly impressive about the 2011 Rays was how they performed relative to their payroll.

3 years 8 months ago

i agree 100 % they wer epretty much handed the WC in that final month and the yanks helped them out. didnt play for crap in the final week but made sure they took the series against boston.

3 years 8 months ago

Funny thing is, it worked for the Cards.

3 years 8 months ago

also what helped tampa was upton getting hot at just the right time….look up from mid august on….

3 years 8 months ago

the rays also had alittle help from the yankees too in that final week. yankees started a guy who was brought up from the minors no experience  to start pitching against a team fighting for the playoffs. but aside from that, its true Rays have finished last pretty much year until the lasst couple of years so they were always getting top picks to draft good players. kinda like the nationals have been doing on how they got their prospects. but sometimes you do gotta do what you got to do. and the rays would spend more money if they would get fans in the seats for awhole season and not just during the weeks yanks and sox are in town or in the playoffs.

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

CC > Romero
Cano + Granderson > Escobar + Lawrie

The only Blue Jay player you listed that’s better than any of the Yankees players is Bautista.

Oh and way to leave out Montero. If you want to say he hasn’t proven anything then fine, I can say the same about Lawrie.

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

I wasn’t comparing them.

I was just staying which players can be considered perennial all stars.

3 years 8 months ago

Montero in 2 or 3 years could possibly be a all star. a good possibility at that if what we saw in his time up is just him getting better.

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

But he lacks a position which severly devalues him as a player in my opininon.

If you compare Montero, Lawrie or Trout. I’d take Lawrie or Trout over Montero just because they have a position.

Again, it’s not about Montero or Lawrie.

it’s about Rogers being cheap.

3 years 8 months ago

Montero was a beast when he was up. that kid hs a future i hope the yanks keep him up and dont send him back down. perfect full time DH. could also fill in for martin on days off along with tex on days off.

3 years 8 months ago

ummm did you forget about Gardner? Nova? Robertson? im adding pitchers cause you did. and although Rivera is old he is still affective. Tex is still affective in the HR and RBI department batting average not so much. Jeter had a good year last year batting close to .300. the only real issue is Arod and his health. there really isnt a hole in the yankees line up. Martin can still be a threat at the plate and has a strong arm. Swisher had a bad year, he has performed well in NY, and after having a great year two years ago he was in a slump last year. was it frustrating yeah.

but when it comes to the AL East anyone can grab the division. there was a point at the beginning of the year last year i thought toronto had a great shot at it them like baltimore start off great but fall off half way through.  its a tough division and they beat each other up, thats what makes the division so good.

tdot32
3 years 8 months ago

gardner sucks. we have a guy like gardner on the jays and he sits on the bench till it’s his time to run. and just because robertson had a good year out of the blue, (for a reliever, that’s not exactly a stretch) doesn’t mean you can put his name in a list and call him on him like he’s Rollie Fingers or something. he could have an awful season this year, relievers aren’t exactly rocks when it comes to meeting expectations.

jjs91
3 years 8 months ago

Are you comparing davis to gardner? wow jays fans are special

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

how much they are paid has nothing to do with their on-field performance.

Question. If Texeira is old (turns 32 in April) then how is Bautista young and in his prime (turns 32 in October)?

Swisher, Gardner, Nova, Martin are no slouches either.

Funny how you mention Lawrie but not Montero.

Your post wasn’t a little biased at all, huh?

Jays DO have a good foundations and anything added would certainly make them better but if you’re going to compare at least be honest about it.

BooJays33
3 years 8 months ago

really uk…you look at ny and see a pitching staff that can win a WS? really?

every team has question marks.

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah pre-season did you think Carpenter-Lohse-Garcia would win the WS?

It’s not all about the starting rotation in the playoffs. Look at this year’s World Series. The Rangers and Cardinals bullpens threw more innings than their starting pitchers in the LCS.

3 years 8 months ago

i think Sabathia,Nova and Garcia could win a world series. its their offense who needs to step up in the post season unlike this past season when they fell dead to the world all but 1 game. they had more runners left on base then any other team in the first round. thatll kill you in the playoffs

jjs91
3 years 8 months ago

But it’s still better than toronto’s. I really dont see why a team that finished near or in the top 10 in most pitching categories dont have a rotation that can win the ws.

Frank Drebin
3 years 8 months ago

Lol.

Morley C
3 years 8 months ago

Just nitpicking here, but the blown saves number is oft-quoted but frequently leaves out that blown saves aren’t necessarily losses.

jjs91
3 years 8 months ago

“No holes in lineup” if only this were true

Bombastic_Dave
3 years 8 months ago

Sure, but Darvish isn’t going to sign a one or two year deal. It’ll be an extended contract to justify the posting fee. Which means the Jays are more likely to be big spenders, expectig Darvish to be with the team in the nexr four/five years when we contend.

Also, there’s precedent in Hech tht the Jays are willing to spend and Darvish is a proven MLB-ready player, further justifying the cost.

It’ll be exxiting, I expect!

oz10
3 years 8 months ago

How can somebody be a proven MLB player when they have never played in the MLB?

BooJays33
3 years 8 months ago

See above that msg is for you too uk.  

and ps just bc we gave wells a bad deal doesnt mean we should never dole out a big deal ever again…wells was NEVER worth that contract to begin with…we overpaid AT THE TIME by 40 some odd M. it was comparable to the Jayson Werth signing…it was a head scratcher.  giving Fielder an Adrian Gonzalez type deal is not the same thing.      being completely risk adverse and pitching every penny is not a winning formula either.

JaysWillRiseAgain
3 years 8 months ago

gotta agree with UKJaysFan.. I
was always under the assumption that AA would ask for the money when he felt
that the Jays were there. And by there I mean a contender for the crown, not
just a playoff appearance.  The Jays finished 10 games out of the playoffs
last year… they ain’t there ..not in my mind. Outside of Romero there is not
much in the starting staff… the bullpen is threadbare. Lind at first is an
underperformer… nobody at 2nd base. Lawrie at 3rd …we’ll
see… LF all underwhelming kids… CF where Rasmus has a lot to prove. Out
starting catcher has some pop, but hits .220.. need i say  more?

BooJays33
3 years 8 months ago

that is an insanely pessimistic view of this ballclub.   this ballclub is OOZING with talent at almost every position at the ML level and the farm system is stacked with high end talent cost controllable talent…some huge trade chips in the cubbie.

i wont delve into too huge a rant but NOTHING a 2b?  kj is nothing?  you forget to mention yunel is probably the 5th best ss in all of baseball.  you throw Lawrie out there in your explanation as to why were not close???  the kid is a lightning rod.  Lind i feel you on but even his deal is team friendly.  Rasmus will be better…anyone thats ever tried to play with a wrist injury knows how debilitating it is. Been there.  Rolling your wrists to hit a baseball is a violent movement..your bodies gotta be right. the kid can play.   we have depth in the OF…with Snider and Davis…a point which should not be overlooked.

Oh we have the best hitter in all of baseball…not sure if you were aware of that…who btw can play multiple positions in the field

The pitching staff is still largely a question mark behind Ricky but you’d have to believe Brandon Morrow would be a #3 for the Yankees.  Almost every team in baseball has questions in its starting staff aside from TB, ATL, PHI, SF.     

That’s why us fans are CLAMORING for what appears to be a frontline starter like Darvish… Romero, Morrow, Darvish, Alvarez, and some mix of Cecil, McGowan, Drabek + any wildcard from the pen of minors is worthy of being labeled a playoff caliber staff.  Look at Det after Verlander…or Tex…they didn’t have any aces just a bunch of solid contributors…

and what more exactly did you want out of Eric Thames this year?  don’t buy into this oh he’s all he’ll ever be rhetoric from the online legion of jays fans who have somehow put it in stone that his ceiling is a replacement level player… the guy was a ROOKIE last year.  he came up and contributed right away. showed very impressive pop hit the ball hard…and did so consistently…AS A ROOKIE!!!!  it was a VERY impresive campaign…and his D will improve.  thats what offseasons and spring training is for.  you can learn to play LF…it’s not like the guy is playing C or SS.

SPEAKING of catcher…i gotta say i love our situation there…JP was a rookie last year too and he more then held his own at a position which doesn’t provide most clubs any offense. Oh and we have arguably the best C prospect waiting in the wings at AAA in d’Arnaud and even Perez and Jimenez a bit further down the pipe.

 if they actually spent some money this team they would be right there with the aging yankees….why are we soooo tight with money that we wont spend a nickel until were “there”.  i honestly believe rogers has let it be known that winning is second to maximizing profits and that all personnel moves will be made accordingly.

everytime over the last several years we dumped salary (Rios, Rolen, Burnett, Halladay, Wells….) or we signed or aquired guys with team friendly or cost controllable deals (Bautista, Escobar, Lawrie, Rasmus, Lind, Romero, basically the whole team)…i was happy because the thinking was that we’d have MORE money to spend on guys with amazing high end talent like Yu when the time came.  but if all they’re doing is pocketing the money and saying …were not there yet…were not there yet…gotta come out first…not there yet.  can’t commit…we’re on a budget…not there yet…

beyond frustrating. atleast try.  it’s not prudent its cheap.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

“i wont delve into too huge a rant but …..”

liar.   😉

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Well Said!

mozelpuffski
3 years 8 months ago

wow rant and a half; a couple of points for ya

1- rios blows and not worth the contract signed to. without us getting out from under him Jose is not playing RF
2-rolen and doc asked to be traded. rolen closer to home and doc wanted change of scenery as he did not want to wait the couple of years for us to get it together. rolen netted us stewart E5 and roenicke. stewart was the staple that brought us rasmus who was deemed untouchable prior to mid year.
3- wells – nothing needed to be said imo – love the guy and all but…
4- burnett opted out and signed a stupid contract; the yanks wish they could take back

Rogers has and is spending money – open your eyes. look at the size of our front office and scouting department in addition to all the Latin Americans we have signed. we pay hech how much to develop in the minors? we have spent more then any other team in this area over the last couple years in addition to being near the top with draft pick $ signings. shoot they traded for olivio only to pay his 500k buyout for the type b status he carried. we can try to win by spending money or we can watch the magic AA and staff are weaving before our eyes. i dont want to try and make the playoffs i want the mid 80’s to 93 back again and that all starts at the grassroots level.

yes i want prince and yu however if they go for stupid dollars i am fine with what AA is doing. There is a wealth of young pitching almost ready to step up and i would not be surprised if given the chance one or two force the jays hands next year. There is no reason why the team on paper right now (add a strong reliever as that will happen) can not compete for the ALE.

regards,

BJ lifer

BooJays33
3 years 8 months ago

see below.

Adil
3 years 8 months ago

i think beeston didnt do a good job of explaining when the payroll will increase. he said if the team wins that will draw fans which inturn will increase payroll. He said the market like toronto when having a winning team will draw 30-35k per night which will allow them to have a payroll of 120 million. its not a sitiuation of raise the payroll and fans will come but if the fans come we will raise the payroll. thats why so much mention of mil and tampa last few days, tampa won but didnt draw anyone and thus cut payroll milwakee won and drew more fans thus raising payroll

drumzalicious
3 years 8 months ago

I think the Jays are aiming for next season. This year they will want to see how Lawrie and Rasmus do over a full season in the AL East. If those two carry their weight then you’d probably see an investment in the team.

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

So since Darvish is supposedly better than Dice-K, do thesr teams bid as much or higher than the Red Sox did, or since Dice-K has been for the most part crappy, do they bid with more caution knowing that the same can easily happen to Darvish

3 years 8 months ago

My guess is teams will bid substantially higher.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

I don’t think any team will come close to the $50 mil Dice K got. On one hand you look at what Dice K’s team got and you say Yu > Dice. True. Most teams are going to say, “how did that turn out for the Sox”?

I think the winning bid will be around $25-35 mil but what Darvish might get annually will be around $13 mil.

go_jays_go
3 years 8 months ago

I’ve been thinking the exact same thing for a long time, but a lot of writers and commenters believe otherwise…

Seriously, $50m JUST for the negotiating right? Ridiculous.

go_jays_go
3 years 8 months ago

I’ve been thinking the exact same thing for a long time, but a lot of writers and commenters believe otherwise…

Seriously, $50m JUST for the negotiating right? Ridiculous.

johnsilver
3 years 8 months ago

Here is to Bobby V starting to pay dividends early in his red Sox career I hope with his influence with John Henry.

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

i’m not really interested, but i think if anything ortiz’s decision probably makes it more likely that the red sox pursue darvish. unlike oswalt and other options, at least half of his cost will not count against the luxury tax. plus the japanese revenue/bobby v factor

johnsilver
3 years 8 months ago

Exactly.. Oswalt was plan A, or we were discussing it as plan A at least…

Am interested here in seeing who they grab from the non tender pile. Just a thought.. Have you watched Volstad much yourself? I am having some thoughts here of him ending up in the mix as the #5 should the Fish non tender him, or decide to nearly give him away rather than go to arbitration with him.

Figure he couldn’t get more than 1.5m or so and when he is on, can be really nasty. He does have a wicked curve that with the right coaching (yeah, I know they need a pitching coach) he could still turn out to be a decent mid – back of the rotation starter still

notsureifsrs
3 years 8 months ago

volstad had a better year in 2011 than his classic stats show. i’d be interested in him as a cheap #5 for sure. i don’t think he has much more potential than a back-end guy in the al east, but as long as he doesn’t cost much, he doesn’t need to

with bedard off the table and likely oswalt too, viable options are dwindling for that #4 spot. are they going to continue to lose their minds over 2011, and drop a huge bid on darvish? based on the ~$50M they already have invested in the rotation, i don’t think so

but i am a little tired of the pretense that they can’t go over the luxury tax threshold. they are swimming in revenue. if they were going to overreact to 2011, it would have been better to do so by spending money than turning over the front office and management while pinching pennies on the field. you don’t sign crawford to that contract and then get frugal

johnsilver
3 years 8 months ago

“you don’t sign crawford to that contract and then get frugal”

Man I gotcha there.. Can see them doing patchwork at say.. The BP, or the BP and RF, then get a SP who is tops. Possibly premier RP, then patchwork SP and RF, but not this seemingly patchwork pattern that seems to be coming about from what has happened so far and all the major “bodies” that could have helped really have signed not named beltran, Oswalt and Madson who we can figure are not headed to Boston anyway.

This is scary.. hope it’s not ’80 all over again and a slow, painful rebuild.. The NE fans would never stand for it in this day and age. Not to mention a rebuild with 150m++ payroll.

johnsmith4
3 years 8 months ago

After Dice-K, the highest posting fees were between $10 mil & $20 mil.  The amount posted for Darvish will be based on what is available in everyone’s budget.  I will be surprised if anyone goes over $25 mil.  I suspect AA will bid somewhere within $10 mil to $20 mil.

3 years 8 months ago

no way that happens. Too many teams need F.O.R. arms, the bidding will be much higher than that.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

Sure. Plenty of teams need pitching but how many could afford a total of a $50 mil posting and a probable 5/$60-$75 mil? I think any team wanting Yu has to be prepared to invest at least $110 mil for 5 years of service which equals $22 mil per.

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

The teams that can afford him are the teams that are interested in him – The Rangers, Blue Jays and Yankees. I think after losing Wilson, the Rangers need him the most and are going to bid the highest and get him.

johnsmith4
3 years 8 months ago

I think you will be surprised. Red Sox appear to be at their budget limit>>losing Papelbon; hoping Ortiz walks; and complaining about not having a chance at Sergion Santos and his $1 mil salary. Yankees seem to be bargain hunting. Rangers might also be constrained if they sign Fielder.

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

No way it will be that low

tdot32
3 years 8 months ago

one of the key differences is that Dice-K is 6’0 and Darvish is around 6’5, which is significant because he’s more built to be a pitcher than any of the previous japanese pitchers (as far as i know) so he could be the real deal, not just hype. So I’d say higher.

JunKim
3 years 8 months ago

Problem is that this dude is already making 10m in Japan. Even if your team wins the highest bid, is it realistic to think he will accept 10-12m/year for say, 5-6 years? Unless the offer is high enough to convince him, say 14-15m/year, he may just stay in Japan for 2 more years making 12m annually then hit FA market.  So be prepared to spend 130~140m for this guy.  I don’t think cheap AA would do this kind of deal.  He may think this posting system is just a piece of crab and move on.

Steelslayer
3 years 8 months ago

Disappointingly i have to agree…to much money, to much unknown risk for AA.  If anything the quietness of Tex, NY, Bos presently probably translates into those teams being the real players for him.  AA will deal from the farm rather than spend on Darvish

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Cheap AA? lol

If anyone are being is being, it’s Rogers I am sure.

The “We will not buy a team” and “We will not give 5+ year contracts” seem to be Rogers words than Anthopolous’.

Steelslayer
3 years 8 months ago

“cheap”–by association I guess—that coupled with his own desire to be money prudent— consider his discussion with Beeston years ago regarding Lackey and Bay.   My fear with him though is just that sometimes I think you have to take some bigger risks when they present themselves, as those instances don’t come up all that much (how many Fielders are there or Darvishs).  Sometimes the plunge is itself is a big step, and you can’t always get caught up in the safe play, but that big step can pay off in huge rewards

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Considering 2012 Free agency, I think time to spend is now.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

You keep saying this, but can you tell me exactly what’s out there that would take the Jays from an 81 win team to a 95 win team? And I mean exact names, not just roles.

Off the top of my head, the Jays would need to add four decent pitchers behind Romero and fix their bullpen. Adding one more solid bat would be a smart move too and probably easier than fixing an entire rotation.

Basically, out of this year’s free agent crop, in order to compete for a playoff spot, the Jays would probably have to add two of Wilson, Oswalt, Buehrle or Darvish in addition to a couple guys to fill out the other two rotation spots. You could go low/risk high reward, but that would be “being cheap” and it’s no sure thing, so we’ll argue adding maybe Kuroda and Bedard.

But wait, there’s more, still need to fix the bullpen. Maybe get a solid closer, why not go for broke since Rogers is loaded, right? Snag Papelbon!

So, you’ve got probably $23 million a year for Fielder, $15ish a piece at absolute minimum for one of the top pitchers (And don’t forget maybe a posting fee for Darvish!), another $10+ for Kuroda, close to $5 for Bedard and then another $12.5 for Papelbon. All for only $80.5MM annually, $65.5MM of which would be allocated for at least four years. I mean, you only had to more than double payroll to get there, but on paper that’s a team that could compete for a playoff spot. Of course, that’s assuming nobody gets hurt ever and that none of those guys, all but two of whom are in their thirties now, show any sign of regression and that the Rays, Red Sox and Yankees don’t improve on last year at all. Man, free agency is awesome! I should be a GM!

3 years 8 months ago

The Jays have four decent pitchers behind Romero already. They would just really like a #1/2 to supplement the front of the rotation. The rotation though is really quite solid though even if it does have a couple question marks.

Wait, nevermind, you clearly don’t follow the jays. I just read that you htink they need to go out and get a closer.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

“The Jays have four decent pitchers behind Romero already.”

That’s a matter of debate. One could argue that Morrow is better than his stat line indicates based on peripherals, but the same person could also argue that Romero was a whole lot worse than his stat line indicates. The rest of them had some ugly peripherals. Villanueva looks to project to start the season in the rotation and he’s not looking to hot, Cecil and Drabek COULD make huge leaps forward, but that’s hoping for a lot.

All told, while they don’t have the WORST pitching in the AL East or anything, I’d be hard pressed to say they can compete in this division with their rotation as it’s currently constituted.

I admittedly forgot about the Santos trade, but I was effectively going off of their needs entering the offseason, of which a closer was one. My actual point was that there was no way that “being cheap” is what’s keeping the Blue Jays from competing next year. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to get them into contention and this year’s free agent class wasn’t going to get the job done without increasing their payroll to the realm of $160 million and handcuffing the team for the better part of the next half decade, which I doubt you can reasonably disagree with. Rogers aren’t cheap, they’re likely operating off of AA’s rather wise advice: they’re not so close to competing that they can patch their holes with a big money deal or two.

Morley C
3 years 8 months ago

 “Villanueva looks to project to start the season in the rotation and he’s not looking to hot”

I think you’re entirely wrong on this. Villanueva will be long relief to start the year.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

I could very well be, I’m not entirely familiar with their MiLB pitching. If not him, who’s in line to be their fifth starter right now?

Lunchbox45
3 years 8 months ago

If they don’t acquire a starter.

Romero-Morrow-Alvarez are 3 locks

last 2 spots will be filled by 2 of Cecil, Drabek, Mcgowan

FriedCalamari
3 years 8 months ago

Villanueva is in the pen. Maybe no.7 on the starting depth. NO way he’s projected to be in the rotation at the start of the year. Romero, Morrow, Alvarez, Cecil, McGowan. If all stay healthy and don’t crap the bed during ST. 

jjs91
3 years 8 months ago

Especially since he struggled in AAA as well.

jjs91
3 years 8 months ago

Especially since he struggled in AAA as well.

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

So you think that Kelly Johnson and Rasmus will repeat one of ther worst seasons in their career again in 2012? You think the Jays need a closer? Sergios Santos will blow up 25 saves again like Jays closers did last season? Do you even follow the Jays? No more Corey Patterson, Rajai Davis, Mike McCoy playing every day?

They will likely have a better 2012 from their abysmal season. That will give you some wins.

What they need to add is 1 impact bat (Fielder) and 1 ace pitcher (Darvish) and they are very well a contendors.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

“What they need to add is 1 impact bat (Fielder) and 1 ace pitcher (Darvish) and they are very well a contendors.”

IF everything breaks right, they’re contenders. On paper, though, they’re MAYBE the third best team in the division with Fielder and Darvish on staff and that’s if the Rays don’t perform their usual magic and if Darvish’s skills translate to the AL East as an ace (Which is far from a given) immediately.

Most people don’t give the Jays enough credit, but you are FAR overblowing the current actual ability of that team. Every single argument you have boils down to a million ifs all breaking in the right direction. Yeah, Johnson and Rasmus could bounce back and put up MVP numbers OR they could play to their career norms and the Blue Jays still finish in third or fourth place, only now under your plan, they’re stuck with an extra $40-45 million in payroll that’s not getting them into the playoffs.

The Angels vaulted back into legitimate contention by signing the best pitcher and position player on the market. Unlike the Jays, however, they were contending for a playoff spot until the last week of the season and have one of the best pitching staffs in the MLB AND are in a worse division. The Angels were a piece or two away from a playoff team. The Jays aren’t exactly the Pirates or even the Royals in terms of quality, but they’re not “a piece or two away” from competing unless you count entirely on luck and no smart business man commits upwards of $300 million on something predicated on luck.

mkl_nyn
3 years 8 months ago

Dude, crazy homer-talk and overvaluing all of your players… not cool.  Enjoy watching the team potentially develop into something great, but thinking that the jays lineup right now is better than cano, texiera, granderson, arod, jeter, swisher or ellsbury, pedroia, agon, youk, ortiz, crawford is kinda off imho.  Even with half those guys on the decline, their ‘bad’ years are better than anything most of the young jays players have ever accomplished.  Still way too many unknowns at all positions to go balls out right now, but the potential throughout the system will def make the next couple years interesting.  Shelling out $325 mil for two guys (with a lot of questions themselves) just to appease fairweather fans would cripple this team for many years if they didn’t work out.  I want them both here as much as the next guy, but not gonna overreact to another trending front office pr mistake.

Lunchbox45
3 years 8 months ago

yanks and red sox definetely have superior offenses, theres no question about it..

But the red sox had a much better offense than the rays last year too. Offense isn’t everything

every team in the AL has holes in their rotations, minus the rays.

Realistically, who ever is able to shore things up faster will have the edge. Ofcourse the jays would have to really improve to overcome the fact that their offense isn’t as good.

mkl_nyn
3 years 8 months ago

Yep, seems like the next few years might be more about waiting for the yanks to fall apart than anything else..

Jose_Bautista
3 years 8 months ago

Cheap AA? lol

If anyone are being is being, it’s Rogers I am sure.

The “We will not buy a team” and “We will not give 5+ year contracts” seem to be Rogers words than Anthopolous’.

JunKim
3 years 8 months ago

Problem is that this dude is already making 10m in Japan. Even if your team wins the highest bid, is it realistic to think he will accept 10-12m/year for say, 5-6 years? Unless the offer is high enough to convince him, say 14-15m/year, he may just stay in Japan for 2 more years making 12m annually then hit FA market.  So be prepared to spend 130~140m for this guy.  I don’t think cheap AA would do this kind of deal.  He may think this posting system is just a piece of crab and move on.

FillyPhan
3 years 8 months ago

Bet the Phillies will show interest in him as well by the end.

Steelslayer
3 years 8 months ago

Perhaps but I have to think that if they sign Rollins yet they are pretty much tapped out

FillyPhan
3 years 8 months ago

They currently have 6 starters. So I would imagine at least Blanton would be traded (will eat some of his contract), if they got a pitcher. Manuel also has Ben Francisco, Kyle Kendrik and possibly Wilson Valdez to trade. Lidge and Ibanez are off the books. Along with having the extra cash from Madson not accepting arbitration, I think they still have plenty of cash to spend.

0bsessions
3 years 8 months ago

I don’t see Blanton getting moved. They couldn’t move him last year after a cruddy year, I doubt teams are going to be more open to acquiring him after an even worse year. They’d have to basically eat his contract and just let him walk to get him off their roster at this point.

FillyPhan
3 years 8 months ago

Bet the Phillies will show interest in him as well by the end.

Bombastic_Dave
3 years 8 months ago

Except AA did say just the other day that the Jays are more than a few pieces away from contending. Still, I see reason for optimism.

Citos_City
3 years 8 months ago

“the Jays are more than a few pieces away from contending.” which is why they wont spend the dough…they aren’t close enough

Bombastic_Dave
3 years 8 months ago

I hope, like Hech, they can justify the expense of this being one of those pieces for the future.  Darvish will sign for 4-5 years, I expect.

Citos_City
3 years 8 months ago

i tend to agree with the future comment however anytime you hear the jays mentioned you can pretty much bet it won’t happen…like AA said teams like to use the Jays to run up the price…regardless they’d be better off throwing the bank at Fielder even if they have to pay more for less years and trading for a more proven pitcher… Yu has good numbers but only in Japan which is a glorified AAA that has older players not upstart talents…

mkl_nyn
3 years 8 months ago

Darvish is just 25 though, and is far away the best pitching prospect ever to come out of japan… but yea 125M total (60Mfee/65Mdeal) is a lot of coin.

Lunchbox45
3 years 8 months ago

his stats werent much better than colby lewis’

colby lewis is servicable.. but he’s not 100+ commitment

mozelpuffski
3 years 8 months ago

throw enough darts and eventually you will hit something haha {edit: that is guessing what silent AssAssin does next)

mozelpuffski
3 years 8 months ago

one thing we know: what AA does and thinks are completely irrelevant to each other when discussing players and his desires.

Rangers4Life
3 years 8 months ago

Didn’t sign Wilson. Didn’t sign Buehrle. Says not interested in Fielder. Apparently not in on Pujols. It just wouldn’t make sense if Texas does not go after Darvish.

Zuidvogels
3 years 8 months ago

Boston may win the bid(doubtful), but Yu won’t sign. Dice-K already wears #18 and apparently all Japanese pitchers have a hard on for this number 😉

Ned Gold
3 years 8 months ago

Man, somethings about the Japanese are just odd. Then again, the same can be said of any culture.

RangersFan1990
3 years 8 months ago

I’ve been saying this since the beginning of the offseason.

Yu Darvish is who the Rangers really want. Here’s why I think this: 

They have probably the strongest presence in the Pacific Rim of any MLB team (Cubs, Mariners, Red Sox deserved to be mentioned too).

Relievers Uehara and Tateyama probably make for a strong club house appeal to Darvish. Tateyama is his friend too. I think the reason they have been reluctant to trade Uehara might have something to do with Darvish.

Texas has money, don’t mistake that. Bob Simpson is a fellow Baylor Bear (Sic em RGIII) and has stated he could see Texas being a ~150 million payroll type team.

Also, they have been FAR too quiet IMO. For a team that has money to spend, they seem too chillaxed in not trying harder to resign their best pitcher in Wilson OR trying to land Prince to fill the big 1B hole in a year that they won’t have competition from the big spenders (NY, BOS, Philly)

Finally, they have been trying since Nolan Ryan retired to get a true #1 ace starter (a la Cliff Lee, attempted Grienke/Johnson trades) and that is why they, in my opinion, will win this bid.

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

Bid predictions?

I say Rangers $65 million, Yankees $50 million, Jays $40 million

Mystery team – $100 million

iamsynecdoche
3 years 8 months ago

And the mystery team will be the Marlins.

iamsynecdoche
3 years 8 months ago

And the mystery team will be the Marlins.

stresspuppy
3 years 8 months ago

mystery team rules! best roster this year!
actually, i would be surprised if Bosox, despite Dice-K, isn’t among the top bidders. regardless, i hope he does play in the mlb in 2012

RangersFan1990
3 years 8 months ago

Rangers 68
Jays 52
Yanks 40

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if the Yankees have the lowest bid either. 

johnsmith4
3 years 8 months ago

Those are crazy bids.  I will be surprised if anyone goes over $25 mil

3 years 8 months ago

hahah, really? 

johnsmith4
3 years 8 months ago

lol…yep…really 😀

BDLugz
3 years 8 months ago

No one will bother submitting an offer if it’s below 25MM

setupunchtag
3 years 8 months ago

Given you’re looking at a 5-year contract at  $60 million, conservatively, to actually sign Darvish once winning the posting bid, then you’re looking at $17 million a year. Every 5 million in posting bid, drives the per year salary up $1 million. So a $40 million bid means someone is shelling out $20 million a year for a question mark. Not sure that’ll happen or that anyone will go much beyond $25 million.

YanksFanSince78
3 years 8 months ago

Of course they will. What is there to lose posting a bid of $10 mil? Granted, there’s a huge difference between Yu and the 2b the Yanks won the bid for, but still, you never know  you might get lucky.

Even though it wasn’t a bid, I was shocked at how cheap Chapman signed for. 

FriedCalamari
3 years 8 months ago

Dude honestly I think 68 is way too friggin high. Why not just re-sign CJ Wilson as a known commodity for 10MIL more. I think 40+ no higher than 60. There aren’t too many suitors out there supposedly. 

BDLugz
3 years 8 months ago

Looks like the Rangers may balk at the price after all.

3 years 8 months ago

“They have probably the strongest presence in the Pacific Rim of any MLB team” 

What does that mean? Darvish plays in Japan. Pacific Rim is Australia, Indonesia, New Zealand. If you think Texas has more presence in Japan than the Mariners, Red Sox or Yankees you are absolutely dreaming. 

“Relievers Uehara and Tateyama probably make for a strong club house appeal to Darvish.” 

Do you really think the presence of a middle reliever gotten at the deadline last year is going to sway Darvish to play his home games in a graveyard for pitchers? If Cliff Lee ran running and screaming for less money to Phily of all places, Texas must be miserable for pitchers. Gio Gonzalez got lit up there too a couple times. It really is a bad place to be a pitcher. Also, there’s a stack of teams with multiple JP players on it, and they play in parks where a good SP can put up good numbers.

“Texas has been far too quiet”

Yes, because they have a sick farm and no holes to fill. This yankess/red sox crap of the last 10 years has to stop, and certainly shouldn’t be adding teams to “spend because they have money” rather than “spending to address a need”.

Your only point that I can support is “Texas has money”. 

Rangersfan32
3 years 8 months ago

Texas’ rotation seems to do just fine in that graveyard. People always says Texas’ rotation isn’t very good. Yeah well they’ve been around top 5 in the AL the last two years in a “graveyard” of a park.

setupunchtag
3 years 8 months ago

I don’t think Pete was criticizing the Rangers rotation, just that it’s a tough place for any pitcher to play (offering Gio as an example), and thus not as desirable destination as one might think. I happen to think the Texas rotation is quite good and my guess is that Pete does, as well, given what he thinks of the park effect, there.

3 years 8 months ago

^ yes you nailed it. God why are people so protective over their teams? The Rangers play in an offense-oriented park that made Gary Mathews Jr looked like Willie Mays. Cliff Lee and Gio Gonzalez pitched way beneath their usual varying degrees of great there, its not a shot at anyone, its like saying the sky is blue. 

But yes the Rangers rotation is just fine as it is. They don’t need to add anyone other than maybe another reliever if Nathan fails, or SP if Feliz fails, both of which they can do at the deadline. Its not wise at all to criticize a team for “being quiet” when its one of the worst FA markets in years when the team has no glaring weaknesses.

3 years 8 months ago

^ yes you nailed it. God why are people so protective over their teams? The Rangers play in an offense-oriented park that made Gary Mathews Jr looked like Willie Mays. Cliff Lee and Gio Gonzalez pitched way beneath their usual varying degrees of great there, its not a shot at anyone, its like saying the sky is blue. 

But yes the Rangers rotation is just fine as it is. They don’t need to add anyone other than maybe another reliever if Nathan fails, or SP if Feliz fails, both of which they can do at the deadline. Its not wise at all to criticize a team for “being quiet” when its one of the worst FA markets in years when the team has no glaring weaknesses.

3 years 8 months ago

Is Darvish worth the ‘big’ bucks?

MB923
3 years 8 months ago

Not if you hit a whammie

mistermonkey
3 years 8 months ago

He’s 6’5″, only 25 and his career ERA in Japan is 1.99, a full point lower than what Dice-K’s was when posted. Worth taking the gamble if you’ve got money to burn.

Madman2TX
3 years 8 months ago

That’s the real danger here with the posting system is that a team like the Angels, Marlins or whoever could bid $100 mil to:A) show their fans “they are trying to be competitive”, B) keep Darvish away from other teams…then fail to sign Darvish and get their money back. Unless this has changed???

setupunchtag
3 years 8 months ago

Yeah, what’s to keep someone from posting a ridiculously high amount with no real interest in signing him, just to keep him away from a rival? Good point.

Guest
3 years 8 months ago

im surprised the nats aren’t mentioned, esp after missing on buehrlie

Shu13
3 years 8 months ago

Arte is going ALL-IN…..the Halos are the favorite to get Yu also….lol

Rangersfan32
3 years 8 months ago

Where is the report that says that?

Rangersfan32
3 years 8 months ago

Where is the report that says that?

cookmeister
3 years 8 months ago

did you catch the “lol”?

Andrew Weitz
3 years 8 months ago

Anyone else think the nationals could be in on Darvish?

Justanotherfantoo
3 years 8 months ago

With C.J. Wilson going to their rivals and the road to the Wild Card no easier since they need to have more wins than the #2 team in the American League East to get in that way, their bid for the rights to negotiate with Darvish, which was already going to be very high, just went a lot higher.

Justanotherfantoo
3 years 8 months ago

I forgot about the extra wild card spot being added…  So I guess it’s not quite as bad as I first thought for the #2 team out West.  But that doesn’t change my opinion about the bid for Darvish from Texas just going a lot higher.

And I believe the Boston GM when he says the Red Sox won’t bid for Darvish.  (They’ll just let Bobby Valentine bid for them.)

Anybody who thinks Boston won’t be a VERY aggressive bidder for Darvish is either terminally gullible or hasn’t been paying attention to the way Boston operates.  They’ll bid very, very high and then offer him a contract well below what the bid would imply.

And journalists, as at least one did with Dice-K, will suggest that Darvish would dishonor Japan if he doesn’t accept whatever Boston offers.

In the unlikely event the Yankees were to win the auction and do that, they would be accused of disrespecting all of Japan and Asia.

You can count on Boston being very aggressive just as much as you can count on them and their shills in the media saying they won’t be.

Mike
3 years 8 months ago

What’s to stop someone from bidding an insane amount in order to block anyone else from getting Darvish?

chris hines
3 years 8 months ago

Nothing. When the Sox won the Dice-K bid at 51 million they overestimated the Yankees interest as the next closest bid was in the 30’s.

Tko11
Tko11
3 years 8 months ago

Because then you lose that insane amount just to be able to negotiate with him…I see him being won at 60-70million. Dice k was 51million and this guy seems to have even more hype surrounding him.

tonyyanksfan
3 years 8 months ago

You don’t lose it if you don’t sign the player.  You can bid it and fake negotiate just to block him from going to another team.  Then he’ll have to wait until next off-season, which might be better for him since I believe he will be a free agent.  (Not sure that he will be a FA, however.)

PattySajak
3 years 8 months ago

here’s my optimism… I say all those comments by AA the past few days are b.s and he goes out and collects darvish anyways, then hinging on darvish will depend how far they will push to get fielder or not. Everything in baseball during the offseason is smokescreen and just b.s tactics, everyone knows that. I take his comments with a grain of salt because he’s usually up for a few mind @#$#’s during the offeason. So get darvish, you travelled to japan to see the guy, and at least put a reputable offer up there for fielder.

robbb11
3 years 8 months ago

at the end of the day talking about who you want to get is only going to drive up the price.  I’m not saying the jays are going to go after Darvish but the fact that no one expects them to get him is typical AA.  When has anyone expected a deal the jays actually did?

3 years 8 months ago

Some people definitely expect the Jays to make a bid/push for Darvish. 

Henry
3 years 8 months ago

Come on we all know the yanks will get darvish. Has anyone heard any oriole news I’m in need of help

Henry
3 years 8 months ago

We all know the yanks will get darvish. Anyone hear any oriole news I’m in need of some help on defense

3 years 8 months ago

Would be great if the A’s look at the moves the Angels made and say “screw it, lets get darvish, prince and aramis” #LetMeDream

Snoochies8
3 years 8 months ago

honestly, that was a total ****tease by david forst….sigh