East Links: Phillies, Ortiz, Shields, Holm

Ten years ago today, the Yankees swung a three-team trade with the Athletics and Tigers. Jeff Weaver went to New York, Jeremy Bonderman and Carlos Pena went to Detroit, and Ted Lilly went to Oakland as the primary pieces. Here's the latest from baseball's two East divisions…

  • "We plan on being contenders in ’13, ’14, ’15 and ’16," said Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. to reporters (including Matt Gelb of The Philadelphia Inquirer) when asked about selling at the deadline (Sulia link). "So we’re not blowing this team up. That’s not going to happen, regardless of what happens over the next couple of weeks."
  • "I'm going to be open to anything. My mentality is not going to be, 'I like it here.' It's going to be, 'Bring it to the table, and we'll see what happens," said David Ortiz of the Red Sox to Jorge Ortiz of USA Today while expressing his displeasure with going through the arbitration process over the winter. "It was humiliating. There's no reason a guy like me should go through that."
  • The 2013 ($9MM) and 2014 ($14MM) club options in James Shields' contract will remain intact if the Rays trade their ace right-hander, confirmed ESPN's Buster Olney (on Twitter).
  • The Marlins have released catcher Steve Holm, reports Andrew Baggarly of CSNBayArea.com (on Twitter). The 32-year-old hit .135/.256/.270 in 43 plate appearances for their Triple-A affiliate.


63 Responses to East Links: Phillies, Ortiz, Shields, Holm Leave a Reply

  1. What sucks is, the rays wont trade within their division. so the yanks wont be able to ask for shields.

    and with the comments from amaro i highly doubt the phils trade hamels. they will more then likely give him his contract he wants.

    • Bob 3 years ago

       more likely he walks and they take the comp picks

      • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

        Which is fine. If teams aren’t willing to give up a Castellanos/Olt type, I’d take the picks.

        I think he’ll sign and the Phillies start building for next year.

        … unless you were talking about Shields and in which case, I think the Rays trade him… no way they let him walk for just draft pick.

      • start_wearing_purple 3 years ago

        No way the Rays let Shields walk. He’s still a good arm to have on your staff. If anything the Rays pick up his options and trade him away for near major league talent.

      • Bob, keep in mind that the compensation for FA is all different now.
        “After the 2012 draft, free agents will no longer be classified by type. Instead, a team will only be able to receive compensation if it
        makes its former player an offer at least equal to the average of the
        125 richest contracts. However, if a player is traded during the final season of his contract, his new team will be ineligible to receive any compensation. (Source: Wikipedia)”

        That really changes the playing field when it comes to letting him walk or not.

        • jb226 3 years ago

          I don’t think it has any effect whatsoever on somebody of Hamels’ stature.  He WILL get an arb offer if they don’t trade him, so the only question is whether or not there is an offer on the table better than the draft picks.

        • $17867741 3 years ago

          The threshold for draft pick compensation would require a player to reject a 1yr/$12.5m contract, and subsequently sign elsewhere. The top 125 players average around $12.5m per season.

          I’m pretty sure Cole Hamels can easily get a multiyear contract with an AAV above $12.5m.

          If Hamels walks in free agency (assuming the Phillies didn’t already trade him), then the Phillies are bound to grab their compensation picks. It’s just a matter of whether or not the picks will come from the 1st round or 2nd round.

    • Dylan 3 years ago

      Victorino should still go.

      • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

        Definitely. There should be a decent market for lead off types and there’s a number of  contenders that could use a center fielder, or right fielder if that’s how they want to use him.

        B prospect or Set Up man would be fine with me.

        • $17867741 3 years ago

          If I were the Phillies, I would include some money in the Victorino deal to grab a good mlb-ready-pitching prospect.

          And if Cole Hamels is traded I think a deal involving Peter Bourjos and a B+ prospect could fit both teams.

          Bourjos has the ability to hit .270/.320/.430, he just needs more playing time, and the Phillies can grab a nice prospect as well.

          Angels can use the extra pitching (if Haren continues to falter) and the loss of Bourjos will help control their crowded outfield.

          Also, in this way, the Phillies will probably be out of the Hammels sweepstakes because it’s kinda awkward to trade away a player only to re-sign him in the offseason. On top of that, the Phillies will have free cash to spend elsewhere.

          The more I think about the Ryan Howard contract, the more I hate it… … … ughhh but that’s a totally different story.

          • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

            I liked it when he was a 45 home run threat and didn’t really pay attention to the other stats. Now that he’s treaded downwards the last 2 years… nothing much to say that hasn’t been said in the past.

            It might not necessarily be awkward. Not sure if you read the book “the rotation” or not… but the Phillies/Lee split wasn’t pretty.

          • SeanE 3 years ago

            You really think the Angels would give up bourojos for a aging cf like Victorino. He’s worth two mid levels at best

          • $17867741 3 years ago

            How about actually reading my comment carefully?

            No where do I suggest that the Halos should grab Victorino.

            “And if Cole Hamels is traded I think a deal involving Peter Bourjos and a B+ prospect could fit both teams.”

            Unless of course, you think Hamels and Victorino are the same people …

    • Crucisnh 3 years ago

      A lot of teams don’t like to trade within their division, or will ask a lot more from a division rival than they would otherwise.

      • LazerTown 3 years ago

        This is what seems pointless to me.  If I am a GM I am taking the best package available, I don’t care if it’s interdivision.  Sure you may have to face them, but they will have to face your acquired prospects if they ever pan out.  Also if you are going to be rebuilding for a few years then it really doesn’t matter, especially if the deal is for less than 2 years.

        • Travis_Lee 3 years ago

          Agreed, they are thinking too much like a fan instead of a GM when they won’t trade within the division.

  2. bigpat 3 years ago

    Dear David Ortiz “Shut up already!!!”.

    I am so sick and tired of hearing this guy whine and complain about the arbitration process. He’s getting paid more than 10 million dollars and can’t even field a position. Not many other guys in the league can say that. Enjoy your paycheck and if you produce, Boston or someone else will give you work next season. 

    • Crucisnh 3 years ago

      Yes, he can field a position.  Why is it that people think that just because someone is a DH that they must automatically all be beyond horrible defensively?

      • well. He cannot field a position well, or probably at a major league level.

        • Crucisnh 3 years ago

          Plenty of very weak fielding players have played 1B over the decades. Prior to the DH, 1B was where teams “hid” sluggers with bad gloves. Were those players not fielding 1B at a “major league level”?

          • rmceachinjr 3 years ago

            The Sox know all too well the perils of putting an over the hill suspect glove at first. Hint: his initials are BB.

          • johnsilver 3 years ago

            Scrap iron was a very good fielder and very fast also. Watch some highlight reels of him pre initial injuries to his legs with the LAD.

            You don’t just move from CF to 1b overnight for no reason…

      • LazerTown 3 years ago

        His career fielding % is .990: Teix sits at .996;  Pujols sits at .992
        He may not be the best but he is capable, and has played 2000 innings there over his career.  They just have better options, you don’t play him when AGon who has a career .994 can play it.

        • Crucisnh 3 years ago

          Fielding percentage is a useless stat. However, your larger point is correct.

        • Travis_Lee 3 years ago

          You can’t make an error if you don’t get to the ball — fielding percentage is about as useless as RBI’s for batters or “wins/losses” for a pitcher.

      • bigpat 3 years ago

         You show me a NL team that will offer him a contract to play 1B and I’ll agree.

        • Robb Logan 3 years ago

          If the Buccos had the salary to eat trust me they would sign him in a heart beat. Many teams in the NL would. He is a proven commodity over time who seems to have to reprove himself year after year. I am no Sox fan (Go Angels) but Ortiz is an above average player any team would take if they had a 1b opening regardless of league. 

          • RetroRob 3 years ago

            He is a very, very bad defensive 1Bman.  Sure, he can look okay hidden over there for a game or two, but no team in the NL would attempt to sign him to play first base over the course of a full season.  Exposed to that level of play, he would be rated the worst in the game.

            His market last  year was limited to only DH teams in the AL, which is why he took the arbitration offer and eventual deal.  The same will happen again this Winter.  Very limited market.  Even AL teams don’t want to block their DH slot with a fulltime DH. 

    • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

      i hear you, but you don’t think he called usa today for that interview, do you?

      • bigpat 3 years ago

        Good point. I just feel like I’ve heard the same story with the same rehashed comments for 3 years now. If they were to treat him bad, they would non-tender him, not offer him tens of millions of dollars. Many people and athletes wish they would be treated that poorly.

        • notsureifsrs 3 years ago

          you have and you’re right. he’s the one to blame for the content of his comments, just not for the fact that you have to hear them over and over

    • $17867741 3 years ago

      David Ortiz can actually play 1st base. It’s just that Boston has better 1B players available.

      In over 2000 career innings, Ortiz has -4.2 runs according to UZR and -4 runs according to DRS.

  3. Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

    Nobody forced you accept arbitration big guy. You knew what you were getting into.

    • LazerTown 3 years ago

      Ortiz is way underpaid for his production.  Sure he may not play much in the field, but he has consistently been one of the most dangerous hitters in baseball for years, even after manny left he still can do damage.  It’s a shame to see Lacky and Crawford making more.

      • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

        If he could play 162 games in the field he’d be a $20 million dollar player. For a DH, he’s making what he should IMO considering you’re only playing for one side of the ball.

        • LazerTown 3 years ago

          You would rather he go out and act like miggy and drop everything that comes his way.

          He has also been durable and consistent. He has only missed significant time once in the past 10 years, and he still got 2/3 of a season in. He has been average 1 of those years, the rest has been stellar. He does only DH, but you gotta admire his consistent production. And you and I may think he is overpaid, but when you compare him to baseball’s big contracts his production is more bang for the buck than most of them. Mauer, Teix, Wells, Howard, Reyes. Is the $10M between Howard and Ortiz really the price for playing the field?

          • Travis_Lee 3 years ago

            Comparing Howard to Ortiz isn’t about fielding. Howard has not lived up to his contract. You can’t handpick comparisons. Cabrera (a player you mentioned) is twice the player of Ortiz.

          • MaineSox 3 years ago

            The difference between the two as hitters is minimal, the only real difference is that Cabrera can/does play in the field rather than DH.  They both became everyday players in 2004 and since then Cabrera has a .403 wOBA (148 wRC+) and Ortiz has a .402 wOBA (145wRC+).

            Going forward Cabrera is obviously the better bet because Ortiz is approaching 40, but to this point Cabrera has not been an appreciably better hitter (it seemed to get overlooked somehow, but Ortiz was legitimately in the conversation for best hitter in the game for a long time – from ’04-’08 he was behind only Bonds and Pujols in wOBA).

      • Travis_Lee 3 years ago

        You need to remember that baserunning is very important as well, which also diminishes his value. Stretching a single into a double or going from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to home is very understated. Regardless, he is still a 3 win player. He deserves $12+ million.

    • Sniderlover 3 years ago

       Well, the mlb system kinda did. Nobody is going to give up a pick to sign him.

      • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

        I’m not 100% sure I believe that. Either way, it’s not like the Red Sox didn’t try to settle with him prior to the case and prior to his accepting of arbitration before. He wanted a big pay day, which he got.

  4. jwsox 3 years ago

    Correction raj. You can’t blow this team up. Too many old players making too much money.

    • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

      Still no real reason to. If they had a set up man better than Chad Qualls/Antonio Bastardo, they’d probably be slightly under .500… and that’s without Utley, Howard, and Halladay since the end of May.

      • LazerTown 3 years ago

        The Phillies bullpen is 9-13 on the year with a 4.63 era which is worse than all but MIA, MIL, NYM.  Since they are 10 games below .500 I think that their problems are way more than a bad bullpen, seeing as the mets are 7 games over with a worse pen, and the marlins are just below .500.

        • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

          My other post is flagged… I’m going to edit it out when it shows up… or just disregard it please as I’ve reworded or changed my mind on somethings

          Certainly it’s not the only problem. That said, if we’re on the road, a tie game is a guaranteed loss, it really is. The Mets and Marlins both have the offense to overcome their shoddy bullpen. Without Utley/Howard for the majority of the year, we didn’t.

          Take out Papelbon’s numbers… because it’s the “set up” and “middle relief” options that are the problem. (although he’s been in a slump lately, so maybe not).

          I can count off the top of my head, at least 5-6 games that having an elite set up man in front of Papelbon would have been the difference between a Win and a Loss. (Five Examples Right now: That marathon game in ATL, Game against the Blue Jays two weeks ago, Kendrick’s meltdown against the Mets in May, the game against the Rays last week, a game against Pittsburgh where Kyle Kendrick was pitching in the 8th inning… Kyle Kendrick, need I say more?).

          10 – 5 = 5 which is slightly under .500.

          __________

          I’m just saying that it would have helped. The real problems: Their inability to score when Halladay and Lee were on the mound in April, Their inability to hit with runners in scoring position, and the big ones: Not having the heart and soul of your team on the field for 2 1/2 months, your clean up hitter for the entire season until tomorrow, and Roy Halladay for the last month. (and it’s not the injuries themselves, it’s the guys they’ve used to fill in for them. Wigginton shouldn’t start every day, Mayberry shouldn’t be in the major leagues, and Nix is hurt).

          • LazerTown 3 years ago

            Don’t see what got that flagged….

            As you partly mentioned and I agee is that their offense is just not producing.  Ruiz, Pierre, and pence have been good, but the rest haven’t been producing.  If they had howard and Utley their season would probably be completely different, Aside from pence there really isn’t any power to get the runners over.

            I also really don’t understand why rollins in leading off every day.  Sure, 5 years ago he was good at the top, but currently he doesnt get on base enough, nor does he have a ton of power.  Pierre and then Victorino would be much better to get on base. 

            Seen Paps had a stellar night…

          • Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

            It’s the name of a certain left handed pitcher who wears the #37. I just left that out this time and re thought some of the things I said… which is why I felt the need to rewrite it.

            Rollins leads off because of a few reasons (and I’m kind of ticked off as I write this… as you mention, Pap had a great night).

            1. Charlie’s too stuborn to move him out of the leadoff spot… always has been.
            2. He refuses to hit anywhere besides 1-2-3… because of his belief that anywhere in the middle to the bottom of the order would be a waste of his “talents”
            3. Victorino’s never really taken off as the leadoff hitter and Pierre’s a platoon guy.

          • Another thing that has killed this team…defense. Mayberry at first, Wigginton at third (!), Pence in right. Watching this team play defense this year gives me an appreciation I didn’t have for the Phillies teams of the last 6-7 years.

  5. The only reason that trade even happened was so Hatterburg could play first

  6. Mike1L 3 years ago

    Ortiz is a fine hitter, but you wonder if he really wants to stay in Boston when they won’t show him the love and respect he thinks he’s earned.   One thing we’ve seen over the last decade or so is how the Red Sox FO approaches things-they are cold, which is exactly how they should be and a strategy that has brought them two WS.  Hard to argue with that result.  I’m not sure that Ortiz could get on the open market a multi year contract for the annual salary he earned in arbitration.  Too many teams out there are looking to rotate older, high paid regulars into that slot.  For all the drama, the Bosox may be making the smart move.

  7. rsanchez1 3 years ago

    Phillies fans must be really disappointed. The ownership have practically given up for this season. They forgot that the NL East still has the Braves and Mets in it.

  8. rsanchez1 3 years ago

    He must feel that since the Phillies are selling out so many consecutive games, he can spend Yankees and Red Sox money now.

  9. Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

    They can throw money at any big free agent they want after 2014, have Halladay, Lee, Utley, Papelbon, Pence, and Ruiz under contract for next year (and probably Cole Hamels the way he’s talked recently), and there’s two Wild Cards so they really only need to build 90 win teams at best.

  10. Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

    That’s not true. You have to offer $12.5 million dollars. The rule was put in place because the ranking system made it hard for lower class players who happened to be ranked as type A/B free agents to find jobs with other teams.

  11. LifelongMets 3 years ago

    Then there came the luxury tax…

  12. nm344 3 years ago

    Then there came the 3-5 Billion dollar TV deal.

  13. MaineSox 3 years ago

    They didn’t start tracking UZR until ’02 and DRS until ’03, so they don’t cover his time with the Twins (UZR has one year), and most of it came as a full time DH, so it’s tiny sample sizes, and the best thing to do would be to take it all with a huge grain of salt.  That being said, most of his worst years actually came early on; since ’09 he’s -1.2 UZR and -1 DRS.

  14. Travis_Lee 3 years ago

    Look at UZR/150. It is beyond pointless to use UZR when a guy averages 30 innings at a position over those years. The SSS is pretty small anyways.

  15. MaineSox 3 years ago

    UZR/150 is at least as pointless.  All it does is look at that tiny sample size and extrapolate it out to 150 games.

  16. Travis_Lee 3 years ago

    I said it was a SSS. All I suggested is that you at least use UZR/150 if you’re going to use UZR for a guy that plays 30 innings in the field per year. You probably shouldn’t use UZR as proof that a fielder is good then discredit yourself by saying that it is pointless.

  17. MaineSox 3 years ago

    Before I even made the comment I said “and most of it came as a full time DH, so it’s tiny sample sizes, and
    the best thing to do would be to take it all with a huge grain of salt.”  I know how little they mean, but that is the conversation they were having, and I was simply correcting the assertion that he has been getting worse as he gets older.

  18. Travis_Lee 3 years ago

    Right on. Suffice to say the Sox are good enough talent evaluators to know if he belongs in the field. Granted in this case it is tough because A Gon is great defensively and never takes a day off.

  19. Phillies_Aces35 3 years ago

    I don’t understand what Boras has to do with anything. Those players had to accept arbitration because they couldn’t get a fair contract from anybody else.

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