The Baseball Writers Association of America announced that Carlos Beltrán and Andruw Jones have been elected to the Hall of Fame. They’ll be inducted into Cooperstown alongside Jeff Kent, who was elected by the Era Committee, on July 26. Beltrán appeared on 84.2% of ballots, while Jones got to a 78.4% vote share.
Beltrán gets the honor in his fourth year. The switch-hitting outfielder was the only player who fell between 70% and 75% on last year’s ballot. His positive trend lines made it a near lock that he’d surpass the 75% threshold this winter.
The Royals drafted Beltrán, a native of Puerto Rico, in the second round in 1995. He reached the big leagues as a September call-up three years later and ranked as one of the sport’s top prospects going into his first full season in 1999. Scouting reports projected him as a potential five-tool center fielder, and Beltrán lived up to that billing immediately.
He hit .293/.337/.454 with 22 homers and 27 stolen bases during his debut campaign. Beltrán was the runaway choice for American League Rookie of the Year, the first of many accolades he’d accrue over the next two decades. Injuries and a sophomore slump limited his playing time in 2000, but Beltrán reestablished himself as one of the sport’s best outfielders the following year. He’d hit above .300 in two of the next three seasons, earning his first top 10 MVP finish behind a .307/.389/.522 showing in 2003.
The roster around Beltrán was not nearly as strong. A small-market Kansas City franchise was unlikely to re-sign him, making him a top trade chip as he entered his final season of club control. The Royals dealt Beltrán, a first-time All-Star, to the Astros midway through the ’04 season. He appeared on the National League roster — Houston was then an NL team — and finished 12th in MVP balloting despite spending the first three months in the American League. Beltrán hit .258/.368/.559 with 23 homers in 90 regular season games for Houston.
His introduction to the postseason couldn’t have gone any better. Beltrán batted .435 with eight homers in 12 playoff games, helping Houston to within one game of a trip to the World Series. The Astros would go on to win the pennant one year later, but Beltrán had moved on in free agency by that point. He signed what was then a franchise-record deal with the Mets: seven years and $119MM.
Beltrán’s first season in Queens was a bit of a disappointment, but he rebounded with arguably the best season of his career in 2006. He hit a career-best 41 home runs and drove in a personal-high 116 runs with a .275/.388/.594 slash line. Beltrán won his first Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards while finishing fourth in MVP voting. Baseball Reference credited him with eight wins above replacement, the best mark of his career. He remained a force into the playoffs, batting .278 with a .422 on-base percentage over 10 games.
For the second time in three years, Beltrán’s team lost the seventh game of an NLCS battle with the Cardinals. The ’07 Mets famously melted down in September to squander the NL East title to the Phillies. They wouldn’t return to the playoffs during Beltrán’s tenure, yet there’s no doubt they got their money’s worth from the free agent investment. Beltrán played in 839 games while hitting .280/.369/.500 with 149 homers over six and a half seasons in a Mets uniform.
The club also netted a top pitching prospect named Zack Wheeler when they traded the impending free agent to the Giants in 2011. He raked down the stretch with San Francisco, but they narrowly missed the postseason between their World Series wins in 2010 and ’12. Beltrán signed a two-year deal with the Cardinals the following year. He hit .282/.343/.493 over his time in St. Louis, but his impact again was brightest in the postseason. Beltrán was a stellar playoff performer in both years.
Beltrán signed a three-year contract with the Yankees over the 2013-14 offseason. He remained an above-average hitter over his time in the Bronx, albeit without the defensive value he’d had for the majority of his career. He made it back to the playoffs in 2016 after being dealt to the Rangers at the deadline. Beltrán finished his career on a one-year contract to return to the Astros.
The final season in Houston wound up leaving Beltrán with a complicated legacy. He was an integral part of the team’s sign-stealing operation that wasn’t publicly revealed until a few seasons thereafter. Beltrán wasn’t much of an on-field contributor at age 40, but he collected his first World Series ring when the Astros won their first title in franchise history.
Beltrán’s role in the sign-stealing scandal became public over the 2019-20 offseason. He had just been hired by the Mets as manager a few months earlier. He stepped down and forfeited his salary once the operation became public. Beltrán has remained involved in the game in less prominent roles, working as a television analyst with the YES Network and spending the past few seasons as a special assistant in the Mets’ front office. He’s also in charge of building the roster for the Puerto Rican national team at the upcoming World Baseball Classic.
The sign-stealing scandal probably delayed Beltrán’s entry to Cooperstown. His statistical résumé made him a very strong candidate to get in on the first ballot. He finished his playing days with a .279/.350/.486 batting line. He hit 435 home runs, stole 312 bases, and drove in nearly 1600. Baseball Reference valued his career at 70 WAR, which doesn’t even account for his playoff excellence. Jay Jaffe’s JAWS metric has him as a top 10 center fielder of all time. Whatever trepidation some voters may have had about honoring him within the first couple years on the ballot, the end result is that he’s headed to Cooperstown to cement his legacy as one of the best center fielders to play the game.
That’s also the case for Jones, who ranks 11th among center fielders by the same JAWS calculation. He gets in on his ninth year on the ballot, one season after receiving 66% of the vote. A native of Curacao, Jones signed with the Braves as an international amateur and flew through the minor leagues. He was the #1 prospect in the game when he reached the majors in the second half of the 1996 season. Jones stepped seamlessly onto a loaded Atlanta roster that was midway through their run of dominance in the National League. They were coming off a championship and would head back to the Fall Classic in ’96.
A 19-year-old Jones embraced the big stage, hitting .345 with a trio of home runs in October. That included a two-homer showing in Game 1 against the Yankees, and he remains the youngest player ever to hit a World Series home run. The Braves won the first game but wound up dropping the series in six.
Jones played mostly right field during his first full season. He hit .231 with 18 homers in 153 games and finished fifth in NL Rookie of the Year balloting. He really took off the following year, kicking off a decade-long run as the sport’s best defensive outfielder and a premier power threat. Jones hit 31 homers while batting .271/.321/.515 and earning his first Gold Glove in 1998. That was his first of seven 30-homer campaigns and, more remarkably, the start of a streak of 10 consecutive Gold Glove awards.
He’d start all 162 games for the Braves in 1999, playing elite defense while batting .275/.365/.483 with 26 homers and 35 doubles. The Braves made it back to the World Series after losing the NLCS in the prior two seasons. They were again knocked off by the Yankees, this time in a sweep. Jones didn’t have great playoff numbers over that stretch but remained one of the league’s best players in the regular season. He hit 36 homers in a 2000 season which Baseball Reference valued at eight wins above replacement, a career high that ranked fourth in MLB among position players.
Jones earned an eighth-place MVP finish in 2000 and very likely would have finished higher had today’s defensive metrics been around at the time. He reeled off another three 30-plus homer seasons after that, narrowly dropping below that cutoff with a 29-homer showing in 2004. He rebounded with his most impressive offensive performance in ’05, as he slugged an MLB-best 51 longballs and led the National League with 128 runs batted in. Jones won a Silver Slugger for the first and only time and finished as the MVP runner-up behind Albert Pujols. It was a narrow split, as Pujols received 18 first-place votes against Jones’ 13. (Third-place finisher Derrek Lee received the other one.)
The righty hitter remained an impact run producer the following season, as he slugged 41 more home runs with a career-high 129 RBI. That was his last impact season, as his rate stats dropped in 2007. The Braves let him depart in free agency at season’s end, and he was essentially finished as an everyday player at age 31. Jones played parts of five more seasons between the Dodgers, Rangers, White Sox and Yankees. He didn’t record more than 64 hits in any of his final five campaigns.
While it was a precipitous decline, Jones had one of the more impressive peaks in baseball history. He hit 368 home runs with a .263/.342/.497 batting line between his debut and the end of his age-30 season. Retroactive defensive metrics come with significant error bars, but FanGraphs estimates he was roughly 134 runs better than an average defender during that stretch. That’s 25 runs clear of the second-place finisher at any position (Adrian Beltré) and certainly aligns with both his impressive accolades and scouting evaluations that consider him among the best outfield defenders in MLB history. Jones is one of six outfielders to win 10 Gold Gloves. He’s alongside Roberto Clemente, Willie Mays, Ken Griffey Jr., Al Kaline and Ichiro in that company and now, in Cooperstown.
Jones finished his career as a .254/.337/.486 hitter. His 434 homers place him one behind Beltrán for sixth among center fielders and tied with Juan González for 49th regardless of position. He nevertheless had a lengthy stay on the ballot as some voters struggled with his lack of production after he left Atlanta. Others may have withheld a vote on moral grounds, as Jones pleaded guilty to domestic battery charges and paid a fine after his wife alleged that he put his hands around her neck in December 2012. That came after the end of Jones’ MLB career, though he subsequently played two seasons in Japan to finish his professional playing days.
While Jones will certainly go into the Hall as a Brave, Beltrán had a nomadic enough career to consider a few options for his plaque. The Hall of Fame has final say but works with the player to choose which cap they’ll don. Beltrán tells Bob Nightengale of USA Today that while no decision has been finalized, he’s likely to go into Cooperstown as a Met.
Looking further down the ballot, Chase Utley’s 59% vote share was the highest among the candidates who were not elected. That’s up 20 points relative to last winter. It puts Utley, who has been on the ballot for three years, on track for eventual enshrinement — with an outside chance that he gets in as soon as next year. No other candidate appeared on more than half the ballots.
Of this year’s first-time candidates, only Cole Hamels (23.8%) received more than the 5% necessary to remain under consideration. All but one player who fell off the ballot was up for consideration for the first time. The lone exception is Manny Ramírez, who drops off after coming up short in his 10th year. Ramírez’s history of performance-enhancing drug use (including a failed test) made him a non-starter for many voters, and he appeared on fewer than 40% of ballots in his final year. His only path to enshrinement is via the Era Committees, and their decision last month on Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens makes it difficult to see a scenario where Ramírez ever gets in.
Next year will be the final consideration for Omar Vizquel, who has no chance of jumping from 18% to induction. Buster Posey and Jon Lester headline a class of first-time candidates that’ll also include Ryan Zimmerman, Kyle Seager, Brett Gardner and Jake Arrieta. Posey seems likely to get serious consideration for first-ballot induction, while Lester should easily have enough support to get more than 5% and remain on the ballot for future seasons.
Full voter breakdown courtesy of BBWAA. Respective images via USA Today Sports.



Good for Andruw. Bout time.
Long overdue.
Long overduw*
I see what yuw did there
Yuws guys are funny.
Carlos Beltran *
I knuw he’d get inducted suwn enough
unfortunately that was the sentiment. He was certainly a fine ballplayer but never a dominant one except for that one season with 50+ homers. For the inflated numbers of the time his numbers don’t stand out.
Other than that season he was top ten in MVP once, 5 all star game appearances for a long career isn’t that good. Happy for him, but the Hall of Very Good strikes again.
Jim Edmonds had a better batting line than Andruw Jones, and he was able to stay productive into his late 30s as opposed to Jones basically falling off the cliff at age 31. Hoping the veterans committee takes a deeper look into Edmonds’s career than the BBWAA ever did. He was neck-and-neck with Jones and Beltran as one of the top CFs in baseball.
The fact you never mentioned his elite defense says it all. He was nothing short of spectacular in center. A few more years would have made it a sure thing years ago. But there’s a lot more to the game than HRs.
Andrew Jones being elected to the Hall of Fame, is a complete joke!! He was a good player, and nothing more than that. Jones lifetime average sits at .254, with less than 2,000 hits, over 17 years!! In Jones first year on the ballot, he received 7% of the vote!! That says everything that needs to be said!!
Nothing against Edmonds but… jones had a way better career!! And that is why he got inducted and edmubds did not.
Tucker bats .274 and just got a large contract. Too many watered down hitters & Mendozas. Until the bar is raised again, Jones stays
Jones was the best defensive CF in baseball for a decade and probably the best of his generation. Better than Griffey, better than Edmonds, better than Beltran. On offense he was worse than those 3, but he was still a solid slugger. That defense of his was a sight to behold though, and made up for the lower AVGs and OBPs he posted compared to his peers.
Players accumulate values in different ways. Jones didn’t accumulate his value through batting average, he accumulated it with power and generationally good defense. To assign a player’s value through only batting average and total hits is incredibly narrow minded
They’re actually pretty close though. Jones finished with 62.7 bWAR, and Edmonds finished with 60.4 bWAR. I’m not definitively saying he should get in, just that I hope the veterans committee will dig deeper into his career when the time comes. He was lowkey excellent and had more top 10 MVP finishes than Jones.
That’s a pretty well-thought-out, nuanced take. I like it.
The league has realized a couple decades ago that OBP is more important than batting average when assigning value to a hitter. When are you?
You nailed it! Truly one of the best center fielders ever.
Citizen-Nobody else had a batting average line named after them though.
Jarred-But a single is better than a walk any day of the week.
Mengis2, this “Hall of Very Good” comment is overused, especially when used by someone who obviously doesn’t know baseball. You do you, though.
@chief When speaking of Jim Edmonds, his defense goes without saying, especially when you’re putting him in the same conversation as Andruw Jones.
He was an exceptional defender. His induction should make the Veterans Committee rethink the snub of Keith Hernandez, who was, arguably, the best defensive 1B in the history of the game.
And Lou Whitaker is not in the hall with a war of 75, ridiculous
Jarred: does your definition of a “solid slugger” include BA of .254? Top ten in MVP voting….once?
@tangerinepony
“jones had a way better career!!”
Thanks for the laugh for the day.
Jarred: Career obp .337. About league average. Excellent player but the Hall should be more selective than that.
Can you mention 5 CF better that him defensively in the history of MLB? Looks like you never saw this guy playing tho…..
White in Toronto and Paul Blair aren’t HOF’ers either.. Yes he was outstanding but not better than those guys
The fact that Chase Utley will likely make the HOF is a few years and Lou is still on the outside looking in tells you all you need to know about a shame the HOF really is!
Wait til you find out OBP is Hits + Walks + HBP ÷ PAs.
Whitaker had the horrible misfortune to retire long before WAR was a thing.
Get on it, whatever the Veterans Committee calls itself now!
His defense makes up for that, which I literally just said in a previous comment. Jones was the best defensive CF since Mays. His RField, baseball reference’s defensive component, is +235. Mays’s RField was +185, thoigh as a hitter he was so much better for a very long time. You have to look at the entire player when evaluating him not just cherry pick a few stats. As a hitter Jones was just a touch above average and mostly because he slugged lots of home runs in his prime while not hitting for high averages or working a bunch of walks, but his defense was amazing as well and that’s what helped him get in.
@Mengis2: Jones was dominant defensively and had better seasons than “that one season with 50+ homers.” His 8 bwar season in 2000 is just one example. There wasn’t a better defensive center fielder in baseball during his career w/Atlanta.
All Star votes determine your rankings? Hilarious. In his peak seasons (1998-2007)Jones ranked 3rd in bWar behind only Bonds and ARod.
“From 1997-2007 Jones led ALL Major Leaguers with 26.7 Defensive War. In his career, Jones accumulated 24.4 DWar—-the most of any outfielder in MLB history. He also amassed 230 Total Zone Runs, a precursor to modern defensive metrics, which is the most by a center fielder since data began in 1953, ahead of Willie Mays 176. DRS—Jones saved 235 defensively, about 50 more than Mays and Clemente.”
When you start thinking for yourself. Give me the .300 hitter you can keep the .375 OBP guy who is slow but walks alot. My team will be better.
Have to agree with you. Eddmonds IMO had a better career.
Edmonds always seemed to make plays look harder than he had to. It might be me but I thought he was looking for attention and in the class of being good to very good but not a HOFer.
Jones was Paul Blair who could hit the long ball. For those too young to remember, Blair was Brooks Robinson in center. Even those who never saw Brooks at third, he was arguably the best defensive third baseman ever. While I can’t say the same for Blair or Jones, I never saw a center fielder man the position better than them. Rafaela is in that class but he has to do it year after year and not be kicked around by moving to second.
The way to do it is to reopen the ballot to all (in stages) and change the qualifications to make the electors watch video of those who they never saw before voting. Too many today look primarily at saberstats when there weren’t such stats when those players played. We all grew up with the phrase “a walk is as good as a hit” but it was not deemed really valuable until the saberstat generation came to be.
Brooks Robinson’s was even less and no one argues he’s not worthy of the hall. Argument is dead when you only consider one stat Joel.
Neither hit over 400 home runs either.
Can’t take a hall of fame seriously that doesn’t have Whitaker. Even worse no Lofton. Only a few people know much about baseball. Why my hall is all that matters. Have to give out my own invisible academy awards and Grammys as well. Tuff work being a cynical a hole.
Everyone talks about the east coast or NY bias. It doesn’t really show other than in the HOF voting. Sweet Lou was very good but was he better than Willie Randolph? As a Sox fan growing up in CT, I saw a lot of Randolph but not as much of Whitaker. As I recall, they were similar players but Whitaker played with Trammell whereas Randolph played with multiple shortstops. I would love to see someone do a deep dive comparison and not just look up WAR, etc. As for Lofton, he’s amongst the most underrated because of his lack of power. When I think of Cleveland players (I consider Lofton an Indian) who should be in the hall, Albert Belle always comes to mind yet both are deserving.
I could take a ton of players out and replace them with Lofton. High obp. Fairly high average. High SB. Most importantly he played CF and extremely well. Being able to play CF SS C makes you much more valuable. He was also a good player until age 40 when he retired. Pretty much my ideal player other than the hrs.
Already in my hall of fame. And it’s the only hall of fame that matters. Think of all the players who were no doubt hall of famers but didn’t get 100 percent of the vote. Not even close. Lots of idiots voting. Probably loved the movie Crash as well.
Agree – Good but doesn’t even come close to top of mind when thinking of “Great” players. Could the story of baseball be told and his name be omitted…without a doubt.
A few more years? He was with the dodgers at the end and he was less than mediocre.
To put jones in and leave Fernando Valenzuela is absurd
Jones first full season was at age 20, Edmonds was at age 25. No wonder Andruw flamed out at an earlier age.
Mengis-
I have to disagree. Andrew Jones was the best defensive center fielder of his era and maybe all time. He had 10 seasons where no one was close to him add the 30 homer seasons with the one 51 and that makes him a hall of famer. Everyone can see counting stats which he has enough of but you can’t always see defense and when it’s outer worldly like Jones was it deserves equal merit. Just my opinion.
Jim Edmonds was a terrific player. He’ll be in one day, everyone but steroid users, Curt Schilling and Dale Murphy gets in.
The Hall of Really Good is open for business. Thank you baseball writers who never played or might not have owned a glove as a kid.
Mike Mordeci had a great game against the Phillies in 1995 and got one 17th place mvp vote in his career bc someone didn’t use a number 2 pencil to fill in the scantron voting sheet. Let’s get his plaque ready.
I love utley but he’s not HOF. He’s in that category of a guy who had 5-7 great years. Rollins is more HOF and has awards and numbers similar to Larkin so that argument can be made.
I do believe guys like Whitaker and Mattingly belong in the hall though.
10 time Gold Glove winner as a center fielder. That plus his offensive production (should’ve) made him a lock.
Im still laughing over this!
Nobody cares about batting average no mo.
Yeah that’s what Tucker’s getting paid for. To hit lots of singles for you.
Whitaker should have gone in easily.
Utley should be in and from the looks of his 59 percent of the vote this year, it looks like he will. He was better than Rollins
The great ones tend to arrive in the majors by their 21st birthday or earlier.
It’s ridiculous that Lofton didn’t even get 5 percent of the vote his first year and fell off the ballot.
Chase and Lou should both be in. It was Lou’s misfortune to be on the ballot when the voters weren’t as astute as they mostly are now
Only one dominate season? He had 41 HR the next season. He had 7 seasons with 30+ HRs, and that’s despite his career practically ending after 30. He had 58WAR from 97-2006.
Until they stop giving a batting title out, I’ll keep paying attention to it and respect it.
I love utley, I liked him more than Rollins and I really liked and respected Rollins but Jimmy’s career body of work is HOF on track with say a Barry Larkin.
Heck yeah. Glad for him he deserves it!
One of my favorite players as a kid. In the days when there wasn’t much baseball on TV… except for the Braves on TBS. Still remember all those players even though I’m not a braves fan.
Ditto, from an AL East team fan. Loved tbs Braves games and This Week in Baseball show..
Braves win Braves win.
How about that?
I miss hearing both voices.
Agreed. Defense needs to be rewarded more often.
In a way Kent’s case is largely based on defense (“he’s a second basemen with all those homers”-despite seemingly not being a particularly good one). It’s interesting to compare that type of HOF case with Andruw’s (I find it illogical one would strongly support Kent but not Jones but some do)
Yes. And while I don’t think WAR is the end all, be all that other do the fact Kent’s WAR of 55ish is so much smaller than Bobby Grich’s 70ish just shows how overlooked Grich is.
Yeah, old-school voters kept Grich out because he didn’t get to 2,000 hits. Glad to see the more enlightened people who are voting today put Andruw in despite his not getting to 2,000. The electorate is slowly but surely getting past batting average and hit totals when voting.
To my knowledge, Ozzie Smith wasn’t an offensive powerhouse so you think defense played a part?
Yeah 66. Defense and the longevity of his career got Ozzie in.
Yes it does ……. Dwight Evans.
One of the best defensive outfielders I’ve seen play.
Jones? HOF has really lowered their standards.
Because the best defensive outfielder in MLB history doesn’t deserve to be in the Hall?
He’s way better than Harold Baines. Baines’ induction was the one that lowered the standards in recent years. Of course the standards had already been severely lowered by a lot of bad Veterans Committee selections through the years. Andruw deserves to be in.
I agree. Baines was the beginning of the second tier guys.
Then you don’t know the history of the second-tier guys.
Not saying Harold Baines wasn’t one of them, but they’ve been inducting second-tier guys since the 40s.
Beltran guy who was paramount to 2017 cheating scandal gets in? Baseball has zero credibility. Hits leader can’t get in because of cheating, HR leader can’t get in for cheating, but Beltran can?
Totally agree!!!
You nailed it! 👍
You nailed it!
The hall of fame is a joke. You cant let Beltran in and not some of the others in the steriod era.
You cant just erase or selectively approve some from that era as ok and not others.
Also, Beltran might have been the mastermind of the sign stealing issue; but its baseball fault for allowing it. Teams knew they were cheating. But did anyone of their guys get hit for it? No.
Baseball use to self correct those issues by hitting someone and making it clear u wont do that or u will pay the price.
Wow…what a great hitter. He hit the ball, he ran…what an athlete.
Had to put Beltran in so they can put Altuve in later
@yankees fan
He’s referencing the sign stealing controversy. So if they let Beltran (a big part of the sign stealing) in, that sets a precedence.
Altuve didn’t use the trash cans. He had a buzzer!
It isn’t about his WAR or that he’s been a dominant player despite being too small to get on some roller-coasters. He’s a big part of the cheating scandal from 2017 and the debate was whether the voters would be forgiving enough to let the ringleader Beltran in. Now that Beltran is in, Altuve is likely to get in when the time comes depending on how his career finsihes.
If he’s crap like he was last season for the next four years, he may not get in.
I still believe Beltran deserved to get in after Houston but I still wonder why mlb handled the scandal the way they did and not name some players
He’s 35 years old. You’re either a HOF player at this age, or you are not. The next few years will pad stats and give him the longevity consideration. He doesn’t need to do better than what he did last year.
Same reason Ohtani’s interpreter got the blame
Eh, Altuve still has a chance to tank it somehow. We all thought Robinson Cano was on the HOF warpath until he got popped for steroids. A bunch of us thought Omar Vizquel was going to eventually get in until his domestic violence charges and harassment stuff came out. Altuve has to behave like a good guy for the next 8-10 years to have a shot.
Sure, but that’s unrelated to his actual performance on the field. That applies to all players.
Are you saying that Willie Mays should not have been elected? After all, he was on the team that used a telescope to steal the other team’s signs. They were then relayed to the third base coach and on to the batter. It was 1951, the year that the cheating Giants won the pennant. But you and all the rest of the Astros-are-cheaters crowd probably don’t have a problem with that, do ya? Heck, the majority of you probably don’t even know about it.
Exactly- every team looks for an advantage. The irony is that the Astros were perhaps the worst as it- the most obvious, by far.
great career but a trash can banger. and the only thing i remember about beltrans time with the mets is 06 game 7
andruw totally deserves it, shoulda been in long ago
Don’t forget Beltran’s long stint as the Mets manager lol
He is undefeated.
Hired & fired without ever managing a single game
I wonder if thats ever happened in mlb history
Wally Backman in Arizona. I don’t remember the reason though.
Didn’t mention domestic violence arrest and filing for bankruptcy.
@78
Dam rly? When was beltran arrested?
He is talking about Wally Backman.
Did you mention if he was convicted?
I didn’t mention it because as I stated I didn’t remember the reason. I didn’t look it up, I just remembered the incident happening.
Why do people always forget that the Yankees were fined for stealing signs before the whole trash can banging thing. All teams try to steal signs, and no team has stopped trying to steal signs, even if they have gone to an electronic delivery system. Pitch tipping is the same thing.
they didn’t win the world series and it’s the yankees so they seem to get away with more
A lot of teams stole signs but the Yankees, Red Sox, and Astros got in the biggest trouble because they used illegal methods to do it.
The Twins definitely had signs in 2019 when they set the team HR record and pretty much everyone had a career HR season.
No coincidence that Marwin Gonzalez had just come to town from Houston.
Every team steal signs. From the guy on 2B, to the camera conveniently placed, to pitch tipping…they all do it. We’ve just come to recognize some as more acceptable than others.
I really find it amazing that these writers will elect Beltran into the Hall but would rather send Manny Ramirez to hell if they could vote on that
Unfortunately, Manny got caught multiple times for PED use after testing was fully implemented and all players knew the stakes. Add in his terrible defense to some degree of questions about the authenticity of his hitting excellence, and it’s not crazy, though it is sad. But none of that thinking requires a character judgment, so I don’t see why Beltran should be kept out by comparison.
Beltran was involved in sign stealing. Manny got caught using PEDs twice. Not sure what the comparison between the two is. Elaborate sign-stealing scandals are as old as baseball. Putting guys in the scoreboard to signal to home plate, putting guys with binoculars in the outfield bleachers, little buzzers in the dirt by the third base coach, etc., all part of the game decades before Beltran.
They both broke rules, but taking drugs to improve your performance, getting caught and suspended, then doing it all over again seems more egregious to voters than a sign-stealing scandal that involved a ton of players simultaneously.
I’d say “cheating is cheating” but there is something to be said about not taking no for an answer. Manny being Manny.
It wasn’t cheating when Beltran did it with the Yankees in 2015-2016 or in Houston. What the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and most other teams did in 2017 with electronic distribution of signs to the batter was not against the rules for the teams until September 14, 2017 when the commissioner sent out a memo informing the team owners and management of his ruling. It was not against the rules for players until the 2018 season after the MLBPA had voted to allow the rule into the CBA.
@web The Yankees were fined $100,000 for illegal use of technology in sign stealing. If it wasn’t cheating, why were they fined?
My point is that the writers will turn a blind eye to some cheating and not other types of cheating. You get caught with PEDs, you get suspended, lose salary, etc. You orchestrate a sign stealing scandal, you lose your manager job, salary, etc. Both PEDs and sign stealing predate the careers of anyone on this ballot and neither are grounds for HOF disqualification
I think the difference is sign stealing has always been part of the game, and all teams take part in it, and all players do. That is not even up for debate. But using PED’s gave an advantage to players who did use, over players who didn’t.
but the sign stealing more of a conspiracy. it helped the whole team. manny using only helps him
So what Manny does doesn’t affect his team at all? The use of technology is where sign stealing crossed the line. Steroid use was for players to gain a competitive advantage over other players. That is why it is a controversy with respect to the HOF. The guys they elect are the guys who performed without the advantage or PED’s. The guys they reject are the guys who thought they needed a competitive advantage, and took the drugs to get that advantage.
True, but the sign stealing was done by many players. While Manny is only one. So his affect on the outcome of a series is much less than a number of players doing it.
I find it frustrating that writers are the Gate Keepers for the Hall to begin with. They should have a board of inductees be the ones voting players in or out imo.
Hey, I found the first person ever to say the Veterans Committee does a better job than the Writers do!
Lol is there already a board of Veterans/Inductees? Guess they’re worse than writers?
Oh Era Committee, got it. How does that work exactly, they vote on a set of secondary players based on the Era they played in? Seems convoluted…
OH MY GOD, YOU’RE COMPLAINING ABOUT THE HALL OF FAME PROCESS AND DON’T EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT?!
Yes. It’s been around for 80 years. They JUST elected Jeff Kent last month.
(Personally, I think they do a fine job, it’s just the occasional clunker like Harold Baines gets through, and there was some cronyism in the 1970s. But they’re also why players like Ron Santo, Orlando Cepeda, and Arky Vaughan are in the Hall–as well as every non-player, every 19th-century player, and ever Negro League player.)
They keep tweaking it all the time. But yes, CURRENTLY, it’s a three-year rotation system. They vote for players from the 80s to now one year; then for nonplayers from the 80s to now the next year; then for everybody who did anything before the 80s in the third year.
And by “players from the 80s to now”, I mean they still have to have been retired for 15 years and have fallen off the writers, ballot one way or another.
Lol thx, didn’t know that. I just remember hearing stories or rumors of writers not electing certain players because they had a personal axe to grind with them. Always wondered why writers were the ones voting to begin with. In today’s world I’d imagine politics now sways votes as well….Also, this may be blasphemy but I’m not against steroid users getting in either.
Muted. Steroids apologist
I heard Bob Ryan (boston sports writer) say he would never vote for Albert Bell to the hall of fame, only because he didnt like him and belle wasnt friendly with the media. that’s how petty writers are. ” he wasnt nice to me, so I am not going to give him a hall of fame vote”.
But like, ONE GUY out of over 300 writers…
you dont think if one writer feels that way, other writers would feel the same..
Harold Baines.
Agreed Yankees Chicago, my sentiments exactly. It sounds like with the Era Committee they’re at least half attempting it.
Are we not currently judging who is worthy of the hall despite never being players ourselves? Former players tend have the most biased takes of them all. Imagine Howard Reynolds having a vote lol
braves: Writers have their prejudices, that’s for sure. Which is why it took Jeff Kent so long to get in. He didn’t charm the writers and humor their repetitive dumb questions. “Jeff, how did it feel when….?”.
How DARE you point out our own logical inconsistencies?!
Absolutely. Mastermind a sign stealing scheme that stole the WS, all ok. Take a pill, you’re dead to baseball
I think there’s a pretty obvious difference between multiple offenses of performance enhancing drugs and sign stealing
They should both be in.
Happy for Andruw, but not for Beltran.
An error was made above: Beltran only won a ring in 2017 as the Cardinals lost in the 2013 world series to the Red Sox.
Andruw is the greatest defensive centerfielder of all time.
Maybe of the 80’s/90’s.
But I’d still take Ken Griffey, Jr. over Andruw Jones.
All time?
Besides Jr. there
‘s a lot of folks from NY who would tell you that Andruw probably couldn’t hold a candle to Willie Mays, Joe DiMaggio or Mickey Mantle.
A lot of people from New York say a lot of things all the time. A lot of it is not based in reality, but in their New York bubble mindset. Andruw was the greatest to ever do it.
Lifelong Mariner fan here who grew up watching the Braves on TBS at 4 pm pacific right after school, followed by the Mariners at 7 pm, just about everyday. Junior made it look prettier, but Andruw is the greatest fielder I’ve ever seen in my 30+ years of watching baseball. Bar none. He sticks out like a sore thumb
A lot of people in NY would have told you Andujar Frazier was better than Jones.
All these cf are the same. If you take the 20 30 50 best of all time will you be able to tell the worst of them from the best. I don’t think so. How many catches did the best of all time make vs the 100th best guy or 200th best. How many is that per season. Not a factor at all in the grand scheme of things.
From what I heard Mickey Mantle played half his games drunk, I doubt he was better than Mays, Griffey, or Jones.
DiMaggio would have been winded running after a routine fly ball given his 3 pack a day smoking habit. The caliber of athlete playing today is simply not comparable to guys in black and white photos
“played drunk” and STILL was better, that’s how good he was.
Absolutely, taking nothing away from his accomplishments. He was an incredible hitter and I am inclined to agree to put up the numbers he did while so often being drunk or hungover makes it even more impressive. I’m just saying I doubt he was in the same caliber of defensive center fielder as the other three.
Lot’s of folks who came of age watching both Griffey and Jones would argue that Jones was better. His range at peak was insane, and he made the really tough plays look almost routine.
When asked, willie mays said he thought andruw was the greatest center fielder he ever saw. So there is that.
Andruw Jones did not play that long ago
@1ahn1: You can google the all time stats on career defensive WAR, DRS, etc and find that Andruw Jones is the career leader in outfield defense stats—-by a lot. That includes Mays, DiMaggio, Mantle, Clemente, Griffey, etc.
Jones had 24.4 defensive WAR—-the most of any outfielder in MLB history.
Defensive Runs Saved per Baseball Reference: Jones saved 235 runs—about 50 more than Mays and Clemente.
“A lot of folks from NY’…..so your opinion is based on regional bias over statistical proof?
You ever hear of Willie Mays? Number 24 was the very best. Made everything look easy.
Mays was the best I have ever seen. The generation that saw both Joe D, and Mays play, said Joe D was better defensively. The one name that is virtually undisputed as the greatest defensive cf of all time is Tris Speaker!!
Mays was the best who I ever saw in 64 years of watching ML baseball.
baseballhistory: I don’t think it’s realistic to think we can make accurate comparisons across eras.
@baseball history: Stats dispute your opinion. Jones w/the all time best numbers for any defensive outfielder in NLB history. His defensive numbers dwarf Mays (and all other outfielders.) Not just my opinion. Try Baseball Reference. I also saw Mays when I was a boy but it was at the tail end of his career and he was long past his prime.
Next up for the hall…. Kevin Kiermaier
Good one.
That would be Tris Speaker, but you probably never even heard of him!!
You shouldn’t make assumptions….
It’s true!
The Cardinals didn’t win a World Series in 2013. Red Sox did….
Omg. Andrew Jones????? He is not a hall of famer.
You don’t know ball.
He was just elected, so, yes he is.
Ha
Agree 100%. No one thought he would be in the Hall of Fame when he was playing.
I guess you weren’t alive then. Everyone thought he was a sure-fire HOFer, until his career tanked after he left the Braves.
I was alive his entire career. Never heard anybody refer to him as a future Hall of Famer.
I was also alive his entire career and often heard him referred to as a future Hall of Famer, so we must have been listening to two different groups of people.
The downward spiral began his last year in ATL. Lowest BA, HRs, OPS, etc. since his rookie season. He was only 30 but began to play like a 40 year old.
Anybody saying Jones was a Hall of Fame when he was playing, would have been laughed at. Andrew Jones was never even one of the 10 best players in the National League!!
Exactly!
Yes. Even offensively this was in a time when 500 HR essentially was a guarantee to get you the HOF votes and everyone expected Andruw to get well past that mark (without even mentioning the defense).
This back and forth subjective argument about who “thought of him as a HOF” highlights the importance of objective statistical measures. Jones fell of a cliff younger than usual, but he put up nearly 60 WAR before he was 30 years old which is absolutely insane.
Jones was 6th, 4th, 2nd, 19th, 7th, 12th, 12th, 1st, and 6th in the NL in WAR in the years 1998-2006. 2nd behind only peak BALCO Barry Bonds in that timeframe
If you want to argue against Jones because he’s short on traditional cumulative milestones, fine, but please don’t try to argue that he wasn’t one of the very best players in baseball during his prime
Actually, Maddox Glavine and smoltz did…he’s a big reason they are in..
He was a very good player for 9 years. Not Hall of Fame worthy
He had a solid 10 year career, not a HOF career. Age 31 on he was below average player.
Sheesh when is Rendon getting in?
Watching him play later in his career, I thought maybe his eyesight was going. He was always squinting when at the plate. He didn’t do that when he was younger.
Hmmm…whatever oh whatever could be the reason so??
@baseball history: Feel sorry for you. Jones was the best defensive player in MLB the first 12 years of his career.
Pretty much everyone thought he was a lock for the hall until his nightmare in LA. After his knee injury as a dodger he was never the same.
Honestly, the knee injury (at the time) felt secondary to the fact that he showed up in awful shape in spring training. It was as if he signed the deal in the offseason and just sat on the couch. His final year in ATL was probably papered over by the superficial gold glove award – there were signs he was falling apart at the plate already.
When they released him, it was probably the best I ever felt about a player being released.
His knee(s) were likely deteriorating before LA. Heading into that 50 HR campaign he went from a stance with legs real close together to an extremely wide stance (thing doing a split). Mays was the one who advised him to widen his stance. Despite his spike in HR he eventually went back to his old stance in ATL (seemingly because the newer one was hard the knees of a who was running all over the outfield nearly every game for a decade).
Andrew Jones got 7% of the vote in his first year on the ballot!! Those baseball writers should have had their voting privileges revoked!!
Andruw is arguably the greatest defensive outfielder of all time. He’d have a strong case even without the 400+ HR.
That barely above average career OPS+ says otherwise
You know when a casual fan posts. 😂
This is obviously someone just fishing for responses. Also, when Votto gets elected they will say “Votto who? He didn’t play for the Yankees or Dodgers.”
You’re right. But Andruw Jones now is.
And trash can Beltran is?
Omg. Yes he is.
The marathon of baseball… The longevity of Andruw is what made it happen. I had no idea his lifetime HR total was even more than 300 before the talk of him on the original ballot. He just snuck up on me with that figure. Offensive stats can’t be the only measure of a HoF Player. Defense does matter. Personally, though, I would NOT have voted for Andruw OR Carlos.
To be honest, I would argue that anything Andruw Jones did AFTER he left Atlanta (and his decline was apparent) actually is what hurt his candidacy. If something instead had happened where he tragically had his career come to an abrupt end that was his only body of work then he would have been a slam dunk case. Unfortunately though too many remember his precipitous decline and hold that against him instead of applauding the incredible career up to that point. Those last few years effectively were not padding stats, but rather tarnishing what was once considered absolutely brilliant.
My GOAT Andruw finally got in! Well deserved.
GOAT what? Center Fielder?
If you’re going to let Beltran in you might as well let in Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Manny, etc…this is coming from a Dodgers fan who despises Bonds and especially the Astros.
Exactly right. You can’t cherry pick and let Beltran and David Ortiz in but exclude others. The voters are hypocrites, but sadly, many of them have acknowledged the hypocrisy in interviews over the years.
Being in the hall doesn’t erase history, and Beltran will always be known as the architect of a massive and blatant cheating scheme before anything else.
Um, yes you can. Rose broke a rule that already explicitly stated that breaking it would get you banned from baseball forever. Beltran used a slightly more advanced system to do what players have been doing forever by stealing signs.
And it’s super easy drawing the line between Ortiz and Ramirez. Ortiz being connected to PED use is basically a rumor. Oh, someone leaked his name from a list that we can’t check because it’s sealed and was never supposed to be revealed in the first place, as well as a million qualifiers about how the tests were done and how legal meds could result in false positives.
Meanwhile, Manny failed MULTIPLE tests AFTER MLB came down hard on PED usage.
Do you mean that same 2003 test Sammy Sosa failed? That 2003 test has been the only direct link to steroids for Sosa yet he’s held out of the HOF. Ortiz somehow gets in though…
Now, this is really a hoot!
I’m glad the HoF voters disagree with you. Pete Rose accepted a lifetime ban, so there’s literally no comparison between him and any of the other players you mentioned.
As much as I despise the roiders, they all did what they did to enhance their ability to win.
Can’t possibly say the same about a degenerate gambler who often owed mob backed bookies money. Rose’s record and moves in the games he didn’t bet don’t show a guy trying to win.
What the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and most other teams did in 2017 with electronic distribution of signs to the batter was not against the rules for the teams until September 14, 2017. It was not against the rules for players until the 2018 season.
So in other words from a Dodgers fan who is still pissy over losing to the Astros, in spite of it being almost ten years ago and LA having three championships since then
World’s smallest violin on that one
Nah man that was bush league enough to never be forgotten. But at least you counted the 2020 championship without calling it a Mickey Mouse championship so I’ll take what I can get here lol.
Boricuaaaa!!!! 🇵🇷🔥
Celebrate this moment by pounding loudly on your kitchen trash bin 🙂
The Hall of Fame will never be seen as a legitimate institution ever again. Carlos Beltran disgraced the game and should be shunned from baseball history just like Pete Rose. I see no difference between the actions of Shoeless Joe and Beltran, both men compromised the essential integrity of the sport. I hope the crowd at Cooperstown this summer boos this disgusting cheater when he goes to the podium. Most baseball fans are done with this flawed and now stained Hall of Fame.
Couldn’t have said it better myself, MachadoFan.
LOL
You see no difference? That’s on you. Pro sports have always made it clear that gambling cheating is an order of magnitude worse than cheating trying to win. Baseball history is littered with guys who cheated on the field trying to win, and there are punishments but not banishments. But the slippery slope of losing on purpose is a bridge too far.
I agree with this. Though apparently many think the case against Shoeless Joe is weak and not convincing..
Hope you vote out Willie Mays for his part in the 1951 Giants’ sign stealing scandal, which also used technological assistance
Mays was never directly implicated. Beltran was specifically named. Big difference.
Never directly implicated? The entire team took advantage. But fine, let’s kick out Leo Derocher, then, because he definitely was implicated in the scandal.
Looks like we have a Houston Asterisk sympathizer in the chat
@ruthless
Yep giants cheated. the shot heard round the world.
Sign stealing in baseball is legal because they used their naturally god-given eyeballs to see it, rather than another’s inventions commonly know as: “TV”, “camera”, “trash can”
MachadoFan,
What qualifies you to speak on behalf of most baseball fans?
“A 2015 ESPN survey found 69.1% of voters felt the HOF selection process was unfair and 66.2% said it was unclear, with many wanting changes to the Veterans Committee”.
He is factually correct.
Really? ESPN was asking about Carlos Beltran 10 years ago? Because MachadoFan was specifically speaking about Beltran’s induction.
Also, “69.1% of VOTERS”. Is that people who voted in the survey? Not usually the wordage people use, but whatever. Or was it a survey OF HALL OF FAME VOTERS? Because then you’ve got a problem of using the very people that people like MachadoFan say don’t speak for the average baseball fan, being used as evidence to support that claim, which contradicts itself.
Speaking as a member of the Most Baseball Fans Committee, I can only go by some simple stats…so probably the amount of Thumbs Ups…
Currently 24 Thumbs Up MachadoFan, 3 Thumbs Up El Kabong, 0 Thumbs Up DisappointMets and WHY ISN’T MY ULTRA-CREATIVE PROFILE PICTURE WORKING, HUH?
Kind of ironic coming from a guy who is a Machado fan seeing as Manny is one of the dirtiest players around and ruined the rest of Pedroia’s career with a dirty slide along with other noted incidents.
It’s funny, because people have been saying the Hall is flawed and stained… for as long as I can remember.
What the Yankees, Red Sox, Astros, and most other teams did in 2017 with electronic distribution of signs to the batter was not against the rules for the teams until September 14, 2017. It was not against the rules for players until the 2018 season.
Mechanical devices were banned in 1961. Electronic communication was banned in 2001. The rules were “clarified” in September 2017.
There was no rule against it in the CBA. That means it was not a rule that players were required to adhere to and that is why they could not punish any players for what was done in Houston. It was not against the rules.
According to the commissioner’s memo, the rules were established for teams on September 17th. The penalties against the Houston team owner, GM, and manager was because they did not even inform the players or ask them to stop.
The rules for players against the use of electronic means to distribute signs to batters did not start until the 2018 season.
In 2001 there could not be a rule against what the Yankees, Red Sox, and Houston, among other teams, were doing in 2015-2017, because there was no instant replay until 2008.
Tbh I used to think the HoF was a serious institution with objective credibility but at that age I also thought Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy were real. If you’re an adult who still thinks the HoF is anything more than a silly museum about baseball, then the cute bartender flirting with you for extra tips is totally into you bro.
I mean… the Hall being in Cooperstown is based on a myth the Hall itself didn’t believe in, that’s why they didn’t induct Abner Doubleday alongside Alexander Cartwright.
But like, How could it possibly BE credibly OBJECTIVE when it’s people, judging other people? They didn’t even have easy access to statistics the first few decades so were voting mostly on memory and reputation.
I guess the HoF Committee sees the Beltran Asstros Scandal like the (ahem) tech companies user data collecting/selling/breaching…”since it was a large group…I guess it’s acceptable…”
It wasn’t listed in the CBA to start the 2017 season, so it wasn’t against the rules for players.
Both no brainers IMO.
Congratulations to Andruw Jones and….Jeff Kent.
🙂
Yup, congrats to Jeff Kent and Andruw Jones. That’s as far as I go. The writers are a joke…
I personally didn’t ever think the Astros Scandal was gonna stick for guys like Altuve and others, but I’m shocked Beltran being named in the report didn’t tank his stock.
It kind of did. He only got 45% the first time and it took him four tries.
It made him wait longer than he would have, that’s something.
Congratulations to Andruw! One of my all time greats! Still remember those World Series blasts in 1996, we lost but memorable for sure
Omg. Jones is not a hall of famer. That’s a disgrace to everyone in the Hall
You’ve said that twice, and it’s still not true.
Only 4 players have 400 homers and 10 GG. Schmidt, Mayes, Griffey and Jones. All 4 are now in the HOF.
Sweet Lou should be next!
Top 20 Second Basemen
AL/NL by Fangraphs War
No. Player
1.
Rogers Hornsby*
129.1
2.
Eddie Collins*
120.1
3. Nap Lajoie*
102.2
4. Joe Morgan*
98.8
5. Charlie Gehringer*
78.6
6.
Frankie Frisch*
74.8
7.
Rod Carew*
72.3
8.
Bobby Grich
69.2
9. Lou Whitaker
68.1
10. Craig Biggio*
65.8
11. Roberto Alomar*
63.6
12. Willie Randolph
62.0
13. Chase Utley
61.5
14. Ryne Sandberg*
60.9
15. Joe Gordon*
60.4
16. Jose Altuve
60.0
17. Robinson Canó
57.5
18. Jackie Robinson*
57.2
19. Jeff Kent
56.0
20. Billy Herman*
55.1
* – Denotes a Hall of Famer
Kent will be a HOF in a few months. Utley should be. Altuve is still playing. Cano never will because of PED.
What is the hashtag some use #FreeSweetLou?
Mays, Schmidt, and Griffey didn’t hit their wives though. Jones was arrested, charged, and convicted of domestic violence against his wife. It’s all there on his wiki page under the personal life section. In comparison Vizquel was on track to enter the hall but then it came out that he assaulted his wife a couple of times and bullied a bat boy who has autism. Since those came to light his support has dwindled rapidly. The BBWAA vote is a joke, morally speaking. They don’t want some cheaters and wife beaters, but they’ll let other cheaters and wife beaters in for some unknown reason.
Obviously it didn’t dwindle, because his support has gained each year until he was voted in this year.
Man. I wish your parents would have paid attention to you. Now the whole world has to suffer another troll begging for attention. Shame on them. You get a pass because you’re clearly still a child. Jordan 5 Years Old.
EVERYONE in the Hall? Like, even the guys who were “a disgrace to the Hall” when THEY got in?
What about Andruw?
Congratulations!
By the way, Chase Utley finished with 59.1 % in his 3rd yr, and Félix Hernández had 46.1 % in his 2nd
Very Surprising. i dont think either is a hof’er but standards are way down in recent years
About what I expected. Congrats, guys!
Congratulations Andruw Jones
Congratulations, Carlos! You represented the Royals well when hardly anyone else did.
Since they’re electing Beltran, they need to remove the character clause from the qualifications, and vote in every stat-worthy PED user and gambler.
Eventually, they will. Any truly deserving, based solely on measured, on-field performance, will get in through Veteran’s Committee votes. Personally, I would be quite happy to see all of them that deserve it go in posthumously.
Guess there’s no nuance in life? Injecting drugs is the same as gambling on your own sport which is the same as stealing signs. Got it. Let’s throw in scuffing pitches, too, and toss a bunch of old pitchers out.
So you don’t have principles? There’s nuance in life, but cheating in baseball is cheating in baseball.
That’s… the nuance he’s referring to, especially since there’s a very long history of people seeing different kinds of cheating at baseball as being more serious than others.
Why? What Beltran did was not against the rules for players until 2018. It was not against the rules for the teams until September 17, 2017.
Actually it was. No mechanical or electronic communications could be used. They got more explicit about cameras in 2017, but it was already against the rules.
Seeing Felix’s climb and early trajectory makes me wish the Johan Santana could get another crack at things.
Santana’s problem was that he only played two years on a coast.
He pitched four years with the Mets, chief.
Yeah, I mis-read BRef. Still, he spent most of his time in the wilderness.
Felix pitched for a Mariners team that was mediocre/bad throughout his entire career. The running gag is that nobody cares about the team outside of Seattle because they play in South Alaska and sucked for very long periods of time. Santana at least got into the playoffs a few times and received more national attention.
King Felix had a career like Mike Trout except with only one CYA/MVP. The injuries in his 30s did him dirty. Trout’s peak was unmatched so he’ll get in the HOF obv.
Trash can banging great time in the Beltrán household.
So last year they don’t get voted in, but this year they do. What changed? Did Jones hit a few more HR to boost his stats?
Hall of fame is a joke.
You’re only realizing this now? When that’s how the Hall’s been electing people for NINETY YEARS by this point?
This is the first year that MLB.com writers are eligible to vote.
…and? How many votes do they even have?
21 MLB.com writers revealed their votes. I don’t know how many more there are. but 21 is not insignificant. It’s about 5% of the total in the BBWAA.
Still, what does them now being eligible to vote really do? Are their revealed ballots heavily skewed a certain way?
The OP wondered what had changed to get them over the hump. A lot of things can change the vote; BBWAA membership, other players that are or aren’t on the ballot, the weather (?). Lot’s of stuff. Adding 20 or 30 writers to the pool can potentially change the %’s. I’m not saying they did, just that they could.
Andruw Jones being in the HOF when Jim Edmonds fell off the ballot in one year is really weird. They were considered equally good during their playing years, they were both equally good in the postseason, their WAR is within 3 points in both measurements, they both combined power and a gold glove…I don’t get it
Timing was a big part of it, surely.
But also… Players with 400 home runs and 10 Gold Gloves: Willie Mays, Griffey, Mike Schmidt, Andruw Jones
You have to lower the threshold to 350 home runs and 8 Gold Gloves to include Jim Edmonds, and by doing that you’re also including guys like Torii Hunter and Dwight Evans. You’ve gone from a group made entirely of 1st ballot Hall of Famers plus [candidate] to a group that includes several guys who still aren’t in the Hall.
Jim Edmonds was 7 HRs away from 400. Biggest reason it seems that he didn’t get in was because he became eligible in a stacked year. On the 2016 ballot was:
Griffey (1st time)
Piazza
(who both got in)
Bagwell
Raines
Hoffman
Schilling
Clemens
Bonds
Edgar
Mussina
McGriff
Kent
Walker
Sheffield
McGwire
Wagner
No way was Edmonds getting much love on a ballot like that.
Yeah, I was going to bring up ballot strength, but some people get really mad that it’s even a concept…
*shrug*
Congrats to both very deserving players!
I saw Beltran in the title and assumed the Mets signed him again.
Congrats to Jones! Maddux, Smoltz, and Glavine all credited Jones and his incredible defense in helping them achieve their own respective HOF careers.
Let’s get Whitaker in there!
First ballot hall of dance maybe
I remember Andrew Jones on the Dodgers and when he hurt his knee and said he couldn’t walk properly but then was seeing jumping over hurdles later and being accused of not playing because he didn’t want to… Hall of Famer
Precisely. He was a joke.
The Dodgers are ruining baseball again!
I like how there are so many people who think the Hall of Fame process is a joke because so-and-so is in and so-and-so isn’t, but y’all can’t really agree on what names you put as examples, either.
I am done with the Hall of Fame until Jim Edmonds is enshrined. If Andruw Jones got in, Jim Edmonds has a very strong case. And they both got similar results on their first ballot.. Edmonds had around 2.5% in 2016 Jones had 7% in 2018 and 7.5% in 2019.
Belt ran kind of broke my heart. I badly wanted him to be the manager of the Yankees and to see that they would for once consider somebody other than a white guy for that job, but then he went ahead and screwed his reputation into the dirt.
Andruw Jones…not even the Hall Of Very Good. The Hall Of Kinda good. How does he get in and Jim Edmonds doesn’t?
Ok, I doubted you when you said this but looking at their stats, honestly, you’re right. Don’t know why Edmonds was overlooked (probably cause he didn’t play for a team that was featured on national broadcasts as often as Jones did).
I lived in Seattle and saw Griffey Jr. in his prime. I dare say that Edmonds was the better defensive CF.
Jones was elite in his prime. His productive career ended much earlier than most. He wasn’t any good after 30. No problem with him in the HOF but I understand the wait.
Wasn’t Edmonds the fake hustle guy? Thought the rap on him was getting late breaks and misplaying balls so he could perform those herculean highlight reel spirtscenter catches
Jones: 400 homers and 10 Gold Gloves puts him in the elite company of Mays, Griffey, Schmidt, all 1st-ballot HOFers.
Edmonds: 350 homers and 8 Gold Gloves puts him in the company of Torii Hunter and Dwight Evans.
Jones had 434 HRs, Edmonds had 393 (40 more than Hunter in almost 1,000 fewer ABs).
Jones did that in 185 more games than Edmonds.
Edmonds had more hits, better BA, OBP, SLG, OPS, and OPS+ than Jones.
They’re very similar, if not Edmonds edging Jones a bit. Edmonds started winning his GGs when Griffey went to Cincinnati.
Jones was the best defensive CF of his era. Edmonds was good defensively. Jones worst season defensively during his peak was Edmonds best.
Jones – HOF
Edmonds – HOVG
Because Jones was the best CF since Willie Mays on defense. Edmonds was very good on defense. Jones was incredible. Jones had 10 straight seasons that were better than the best season that Edmonds ever had on defense. Edmonds 7-year peak was 4 WAR lower than Jones’, about 10% lower. Jones was better than Edmonds.
He might be Willie Mays but he was no Willie Mays Hayes. That cat could flat out ball
Are you joking? Probably greatest CF defender ever oh *and* 434 HRs?? What the heck took so long?! Should have been 1st ballot. And I’m a Mets fan.
Lifetime averages too low for me to vote them in. Beltran was borderline for me
Thanks for voting🤣
Haha sorry for adding my 2 cents
Batting average shouldn’t be weighted as heavily anymore. There’s plenty of far better stats that show how productive hitters are
What about on base percentage, both had low obp.
There obp was low for a hall of famer if they didn’t have 800 900 ops gold glove seasons.
You putting Arraez in hof?
Jones could field like no other. His defense was otherworldly.
Man Beltran gets 5 paragraphs and Jones get two words. ..
Not mentioned anywhere that I saw, but having Shin-Soo Choo get 3 votes is utterly amazing to me… and no disrespect, but somewhat disingenuous by those voters.
One vote for each name, I like it.
Not only should they lose their voting rights but send them to some prison planet where they have to fight to the death for our viewing pleasure here on earth.
Same with every voter who didn’t vote for players who should be 100 percent. Rid these clowns forever.
Uh-huh. And who decides the players who should be 100 percent, exactly? Gonna have a group of people vote on it?
Not really he wasnt a strikeout pig like so many players of today. He is a good little batter.
I’m not disagreeing with either of you guys… but Hall of Famer?!?!
C’mon man…
LOU WHITAKER !!!
Top 20 Second Basemen
AL/NL by Fangraphs War
No. Player
1. Rogers Hornsby* 129.1
2. Eddie Collins* 120.1
3. Nap Lajoie* 102.2
4. Joe Morgan* 98.8
5. Charlie Gehringer* 78.6
6. Frankie Frisch* 74.8
7. Rod Carew* 72.3
8. Bobby Grich 69.2
9. Lou Whitaker 68.1
10. Craig Biggio* 65.8
11. Roberto Alomar* 63.6
12. Willie Randolph 62.0
13. Chase Utley 61.5
14. Ryne Sandberg* 60.9
15. Joe Gordon* 60.4
16. Jose Altuve 60.0
17. Robinson Canó 57.5
18. Jackie Robinson* 57.2
19. Jeff Kent 56.0
20. Billy Herman* 55.1
* – Denotes a Hall of Famer
F Lou. How about how the grich stole hof?
Eff U….
It’s amazing how he keeps getting overlooked. It’s not the HOF, without LOU, in it !!
I agree he should be in, but saying “It’s not the HOF without Lou Whitaker in it” is… like, what?
My opinion. If the HOF can overlook LOU, one of the top 2B ever, why have it ?
I’m sure that there are others, but for me, LOU, is it.
Even though my top two players are there (Kaline and Trammell, and Miggy, soon), it’s just a popularity contest, not a hall of fame.
The problem with Lou Whitaker is, Make his case without using WAR (which wasn’t a thing when he was on the writers’ ballot and is still probably eyed with some skepticism by the old players and such who make up Veterans Committees).
–Never led the league in anything
–3 Gold Gloves is nice, but Orlando Hudson had 4
–5 All Star games is nice, but Del Crandall had 8 [technically more, but they had 2 All Star games per season for much of his career, I’m only counting distinct seasons)
–No major milestones
–No “medium” milestones like 2500 hits or 300 home runs
–Rookie of the Year? Great. Most Rookies of the Year aren’t in the Hall of Fame
Not saying Whitaker ISN’T a Hall of Famer, I’m just saying… Him not being in isn’t shocking. Compare his case outside of WAR to Willie Randolph.
Just a great, consistent player.
facebook.com/share/r/1AZWdL6Mzg/?mibextid=wwXIfr
Just came to see the trash can comments about Beltran.
Three more members of MLB’s Hall of Very Good Players.
Bertrand’s Acceptance Speach
I like to thank the following
Mom, Dad, MLB. But most of all I like to thank Home Depot,Lowes and Ace Hardwares for supplying me with trash cans. Because without them I wouldn’t be standing here with a World Series Ring.
um, and Andruw Jones…
Cheating off the field, Bad
cheating on the field, ok
That has been the agreed upon standard for 90 years of Hall voting, yes.
The hall of fame went from electing great players to really good players.
They’ve always been electing really good players with some great ones every once in a while.
Like seriously, look who’s in there. You’re telling me “400 homers and 10 gold gloves” and “greatest stealing percentage of all time” are LOWERING the threshold of a Hall with guys like Tommy McCarthy, Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, George Kelly…
Ooh now you’ve m ade Tommy Bancroft, Jesse Kelly and George McCarthys families really mad. Wait til Anne Bancroft, Emmett Kelly and Jenny McCarthy get to you
Who?
EXACTLY. There are 283 players inducted into the Hall of Fame. Most people who are complaining about “watering down the Hall of Fame” couldn’t name half of them.
Beltran doesn’t belong there.
Always liked Beltran but the sign stealing scandal should have barred him from the Hall. Eventually you’ll be able to do anything and still get in. I’m really happy for Jones, that was long overdue. Hell of a career
Two more ex-Yankees make it into the Hall…
Guess we’re picking and choosing what cheaters get in. This type of cheating bad but that type of cheating is fine. The ridiculous clown sport becomes even more of a circus.
Yes, they’ve been doing that for… 90 years now.
1936, the first ever election to the Hall of Fame. Ty “holds runner’s belts and rumored to sharpen his cleats to injure players” Cobb gets more votes than any other player, Shoeless Joe “I probably didn’t play my best in a couple of games for money” Jackson got a total of 2 votes.
Therefore it’s fine and no accountability required, gotcha (thumbs up)
I guess any punishment short of permanent banishment isn’t accountability, gotcha (thumbs up)
It wasn’t cheating when they did it. Until 2018 there was no rule against it in the CBA for players. Until September 17, 2017 there was no rule against it for teams.
I’m ok with Jones getting in and feel it’s long overdue. At his peak he was the best defensive Center Fielder in Baseball and an offensive force.
Beltran I’m mixed on. The numbers are decent but it seems hypocritical to me to allow the master mind of the trash can fiasco in while McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Clemens, Ramirez, and Rodriguez remain out
Not getting into point counterpoint of any controversies, but just wanted to say congratulations to both on fine careers and their HOF nominations.
Andruw Jones, it’s about time! Best fielder I’ve witnessed play the game.
Carlos Beltran is a cheater unworthy of the hall.
jones is arguably the greatest defensive outfielder in the history of the sport. he was a first-ballot hall of famer before he turned 30 but his last 5-6 seasons left a bad impression with some voters
Nobody thought Jones was a Hall of Famer at 30, let alone his hefty years thereafter.
Defensively an all-time great. Anyone else wondering what happened offensively to him after age 30?? Hmmm…
He got fat and lazy. Its not complicated .
What a joke. Andruw Jones was the absolute worst player to ever wear a Dodgers uniform. His induction cheapens the hall.
I really hope you aren’t basing his Hall of Fame candidacy entirely on his one bad season in LA.
“Wait he played somewhere other than LA?”- L.C.
.154 At age 31 is more than bad. Does his lifetime average now represent the lowest in the hall?
.154 yikes. LC actually kinda has a point
@leftcoaster: W/a knee injury that ruined his season but don’t mention any pertinent facts that derail your fanboy narrative.
He showed up to spring training weighing 250 pounds. There’s no excuse for a big money center fielder reporting as a big tub of goo.
In real time during Andruw’s career, nobody looked at him as a Hall of Famer. We can name at least 3 centerfielders that were considered better all around players at his position who are no longer on the ballot.
No you can’t and yes he was considered a HOF player during his career. In his prime he was considered the best defensive CF since Willie Mays. That was a pathetic attempt at trolling and you failed.
Bernie Williams, Kenny Lofton, Jim Edmonds. Just named 3. All more impact offensively for their teams than Andruw Jones. Unless you count his dropped ball in the 2000 ALDS in a game Rick Ankiel couldn’t find the zone.
Devon White and Torii Hunter were better defenders in Centre. It is not trolling if only one of us watched baseball on TBS for years. Stop playing victim.
@leftcoaster Trevor Bauer has entered the chat.
Good for both deserve it.
Andruw should have been elected long before today. Beltrán should be collecting my garbage on Thursday morning
The HOF is a total joke ever since they allowed Harold Baines to get in.
To be fair, the whole concept of the Hall of Fame being in Cooperstown is based on a lie, so in a sense it’s been a joke since Day 1.
(In case you don’t know, Abner Doubleday supposedly invented baseball in 1839 in Cooperstown, New York. There’s ZERO evidence of this, and the Hall didn’t even induct Doubleday as a pioneer. They elected Alexander Cartwright instead, since he at least ran a club that first published some rules on how to play baseball.)
I felt that way until I noticed that Baines has 2nd most games at DH in history and Edgar Martinez is 4th all time. 3 of the 4 at DH all time are now in HOF and a few active and recently retired mainly DH players will get in over the next 10 or more years.
Finally these nerds quit screwing over Andruw Jones should have been in years ago. I still supported him and got my signed memorabilia and bobbleheads. My favorite childhood player finally gets his due and can be properly recognized.
Beltran brought the cheating to the Astros!
Congrats to Carlos Beltran. My favorite Met of all time.
SHOCKED FACE EMOJI HERE WITH GAPING MOUTH. So I assume then that Lindor is your CURRENT favorite Met, and you appreciate the HUSTLE OF LAZY JUAN? I further assume that you were too young for the 1999-2000 team of clutch, go-to-swinging performers.
Carlos Beltran was a great player
The HOF is officially declared a joke. A cheater and a .254 hitter.
“A .254 hitter”…..because defense isn’t worth considering, huh. Which is more valuable—a run scored or a run prevented from scoring? Jones did the latter better than any MLB outfielder in history (and also hit 434 homers.)
libl
“officially declared a joke”
Using batting average, which treats a single and a home run the same age that ignores walks to talk about a player’s offensive performance is a joke.
Do you watch baseball, or just look at stats? Have you seen how extra base hits effect the game? And walks as well?
You have to seriously not know the history of who’s in the Hall of Fame to think THIS is where it officially becomes a joke.
No one has a problem with Ozzie Smith getting in the Hall on defense alone, but you want to bash Andruw Jones, who was just as great on defense AND hit over 400 homers.
Makes no sense whatsoever to bash Andruw. He absolutely deserves to be a Hall of Famer, and it shouldn’t have taken 9 tries to get in. That’s the head scratcher.
I still can’t believe he went to same college as some of my family members. Never found out if they were ever in college same time as Ozzie though.
I don’t understand how A Jones gets in, but Jim Edmonds barely gets a sniff. Their career numbers are very similar with Edmonds having a slight advantage offensively & Jones a little better defensively. And Edmonds didn’t fall off the face of the earth when he turned 30.
Wasn’t Beltran the leader of the sign stealing in 2017?
Edmonds was better offensively for a longer time. Jones was a lot better defensively but burned out faster. Their peaks were similar, with Jones being slightly better.
No he wasn’t.
Jones’ 7-year peak was slightly better than Edmonds, if you go by WAR.
If going by who the better player was not taking into account a very flawed metric manufactured by non-baseball people, nobody chooses a glorified 6-hole hitter in Andruw Jones over Jim Edmonds.
Or Bernie Williams.
7 year peak didn’t include defense, only offense. Jones was a stud the first 11 years of his career.
Most traditional stats are ALSO flawed metrics manufactured by non-baseball people. Batting average? Henry Chadwick thought that since it was a thing in cricket, he could bring it over for baseball, which he covered but never played.
Jones was a 6-hole hitter behind Brian Jordan. Stop it. He was a stud hitter for maybe 3 seasons. He was barely Ryan Klesko. Jones was never considered a stud with his perennial .255 with 30 bombs. Nice player, good to have, nowhere near a stud. Chipper was a stud, McGriff was a stud. Heck, Galarraga was more of a stud than Andruw.
You’re giving him no credit for his defense. For the ten years after his rookie year, Jones averaged 6 bWAR per season. That’s All-Star caliber production for a decade. That’s pretty studly.
Galarraga was a bad defender and hit fewer homeruns than Jones, even with playing much of his career in CO. I loved the Big Cat and he had some great years, but his overall production was not that great.
@its_happening: “Stop it.” Jones was the greatest outfield defender in MLB history according to defensive metrics. Stopping a run from scoring is just as important as knocking one in. You’re using batting average and where Bobby Cox chose to hit him in the lineup as your measuring stick? He was a solid hitter and yes—-he was a “stud” in the outfield.
Haters gonna hate.
It was 4 WAR better. 10% better. That is not slightly better, its a lot better.
That is superstar production, on average for a decade. All Star is 4.0 WAR. Superstar or top 1% is 6.0 WAR.
NashvilleJeff you didn’t watch Devon White. Could get to balls Andruw could only dream of. As for Jones’ hitting, you’re now lying to yourself if you are blaming Bobby Cox on where he should have been hitting. He was a nice hitter with 3 great seasons.
Stud or not, should not be in the Hall of Fame.
Not a hater. Bhambrave it’s called harsh reality.
Bhambrave there are excellent defenders not in the Hall nor should they. Hit bat alone should have him on the outside looking in. During his time, teams would have picked many other CF’s to have on their team over Andruw Jones. That is a fact, and those guys aren’t on the ballot anymore.
@happening: Stop pretending you have any idea about what I and others here have seen or know. You’re not the only one who “watched TBS for years.” I grew up in Atlanta, was a teenager in the mid 70’s. I also know how to read and understand defensive metrics. By any metric, Jones is the best defensive outfielder in MLB history—not just in CF. I also saw plenty of Devon White. Excellent centerfielder, but he didn’t have Jones range OR bat. Baseball Reference, Fangraphs, UZR, DRS, etc are more reliable and fact based than your memory, eye test, and opinions.
@its_happening: You seem to believe that your opinions are facts. They aren’t.
Your eyes failed you. And your memory, that 1992 World Series catch Devon made? Jones doesn’t come close to catching it. Much like his drop in the 2000 NLDS to help Rick Ankiel not lose his start, Jones’ deficiencies were overlooked.
Devon White could outrun (did), out hustle (did), took better routes and got to balls better than Jones. Jones did have a better arm, and did have a better bat. Devon had Lofton speed. Jones didn’t. Devon’s D secured 3 rings while Jones’s D secured none.
We have established there are flaws to the defensive metrics. But we have established here your eyes failed.
NashvilleJeff, projecting much?
Its happening, delusional much? Only thing you’ve established is that you think your opinions are facts. Again—–they aren’t. You’re unable to understand, realize, and admit that defensive metrics trump your opinions, eye test, and selective memory.
@it’s_happening: You’re in denial if you think “teams would have chosen many other CF’s” over Jones. Your harsh reality is only real in an alternate universe. You don’t value defense. I get that. But just because you don’t, that doesn’t mean baseball teams don’t.
I think it’s_happening is just a troll. No one is that ignorant. Ignore him.
Jones worst defensive seasons were Edmonds best defensive seasons.
Based on questionable defensive metrics, and everyone would take Edmonds’ bat over Jones’s. Easily.
Does Beltran’s trash can go in as well?
A lot of trash cans will be in and around the HOF grounds. Free admission for them
I continue to be confounded that Omar Visquel continues to get enough votes to stay on the ballot
Mark Buehrle got screwed!
Who?? I’ll have to search that name up…did you spell that correctly?
Congrats to Sox legend Andruw Jones!
I’m going to be at the ceremony in Cooperstown. When I shake Beltran’s hand I’ll make sure I have a buzzer in my hand.
The Writers who voted for Beltran should be kicked off the committee. The commissioner is also to blame for putting this under the rug. Character is supposed to be one of the criteria. This is an embarrassment for any true baseball fan.
Great picks of Jeff Kent and Jones.
Someone voted for Nick Markakis heh. Opa
It was the Braves beat writer.
While we’re celebrating Greeks how bout Youklis: the God of Walks.
@Theo: Yeah it was Mark Bowman, the Braves beat writer on mlb.com. He said that it was in honor of the best clubhouse leader he’d ever seen in his years of covering baseball. Also said he wouldn’t do it again. Just once to show his appreciation for Markakis. Bowman only voted for 3 or 4 other players, so he didn’t screw any player out of a vote that might have deserved it due to the vote limit.
It’s about time Andruw got elected!
He was a delight to watch in his heyday.
51 homers out of blue? John Rocker must know!
Not all cheaters are created equal. Beltrán gets in yet Bonds and Clemens sit on the outside.
I’d vote for the guy who “cheated” over the one who ate himself out of the league at age 30 every day of the week. I’m not at all surprised but it’s still hilarious as someone who actually remembers following the game before 2017 to see Jeff Kent and Andruw Jones get voted in, and it’s a third man entirely getting bashed for character
Haha ate himself out of the league. Well said.
I guess his multiple knee injuries played no part.
What’s wrong with eating themselves out of the league? Who amongst us hasn’t overeaten and lost a promising professional sports career as a result?
Remember that episode of South Park when James Cameron had to use a submarine to find out how low the bar had dropped? Funny stuff. I love that show.
So tired of the armchair voters in here proselytizing on the merits of HoF. None of you have the answer and the louder you are the more ignorant you sound.
Everybody has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to them. Being an opinion judge isn’t a good look for you.
We could at least keep the “BOO!!! HALL SUX, TARNISHED 4EVA!!!”-type comments to a minimum…
I hear you.
I loved watching A Jones play outfield. TV has created focus on specific plays and players. Locally we only have one or two chances to see a player like Jones or Edmonds unless their on a local team or on TV all the time. Sports Media pushes things their way whichever way they want. I’m glad Jones got in and Edmunds deserves it as well. Why are the sports writers ie Media the ones deciding things?
If ur going to let the trash can crew in then might as well let the juicers in too. Cheating is cheating
“Carlos Beltrán was a central figure in the Houston Astros’ 2017 sign-stealing scandal, identified in MLB’s investigation as instrumental in developing and executing the electronic system, leading to his firing as Mets manager.” We’ve always been told cheaters weren’t allowed in the Hall of Fame BUT here we are; some cheaters are and some cheaters aren’t. Hall of Hypocrites.
From my memory, the “cheaters aren’t allowed in the Hall of Fame” only referred to those caught betting on games, and then they added the steroid thing in the 2000s.
But they’ve pretty consistently players who cheated in other ways get in.
Okay so Gold Medal Hall of Famers must have 5.0 WAR/162 games; Silver Medal HOFs say 4.25 to 4.99; and Bronze 3.50 to 4.24. I think we can all get on board with that, right? So these two are Silver Medal HOFers…Beltran gets an asterisk on his plaque for the Astros cheating episode…Jones gets an asterisk for battery against his wife…asterisk free plaques are few and far between
All current Hispanic players owe a huge debt to Carlos Beltran. He was a key advocate to get owners & union to establish a dedicated translator for every team that was fluent in both English & Spanish . Japanese players long had that benefit to help them, but Hispanic players had gone decades without that help (despite them representing a much larger number of players). The program was established in 2016.
Things like this were a fail and continue to be a fail for MLB ownerships. Some have instituted some admirable programs to help their players learn English (search up “francisco alvarez english interview”). That really impressed me from both the standpoint of Alvarez and the org’s devotion to personal development. But we lowly middle class people forget these are just young men. Think about how stupid we were as young men and dumb things we’d do back then, especially without any guidance. MLB org’s owe it to their “employees” to help them with personal development as well as making EVERY SINGLE PLAYER TRY TO LAUNCH A BASEBALL IN EVERY SINGLE AT BAT AT EXACTLY A 27% WITH A FULL 120% EFFORT…cuz that always makes baseball more fun to watch, no?
How can anyone justify casting a vote for Andy Pettitte and not for Alex Rodriguez or Manny Ramirez. Pettitte ADMITTED that he used PEDs. And that is the only reason ARod and Manny were not first ballot HOFers. I just don’t see any possible justification for it. Either keep all out or let all in. Don’t pick and choose.
I can absolutely see voting for Andy Pettitte but not Manny Ramirez. Manny Ramirez failed MULTIPLE drug tests AFTER the steroids scandal broke. He used PEDs AFTER it became clear that MLB wasn’t allowing that anymore.
You’ve got a point about voting for Pettitte but not ARod, though.
But Manny was already punished and served his sentence. for the multiple offenses. That punishment did not include a lifetime ban from the Hall of Fame. You don’t lose your job and pension for getting caught cheating on your taxes. You pay the penalty and move on.
And don’t talk about honor because when it comes down to it, relatively few in baseball have much honor because relatively few have served their countries. We are just talking about baseball players here. It’s time we stopped expecting them to be saints. Put them on a plaque and don’t leave out the bad stuff. Kids going to the HOF museum need to learn that people can make mistakes and not have it ruin their lives. These guys did not murder anyone. You can overcome relatively minor mistakes and still thrive in life.
Yeah pretty good one except comparing cheating on taxes to cheating at your job. Maybe like “You don’t lose your job and pension by stealing trash bags from your company. You do your HR reaming and move on.”
OK, but none of that was in your ORIGINAL question…
@Hiflew – The only justifications that make sense is Pettitte didn’t use steroids to bulk up, but to heal from an injury. Plus, there’s the fact that Pettitte is infinitely more likeable than either A-Rod & Manny.
I think it’s time to let in those guys. Players used all sorts of things to get an edge in previous eras.
With Beltran’s election to the Hall, it remains to be seen how the voters will feel about fellow cheaters Jose Altuve and Alex Bregman.
That would be a sad thing indeed to honor those players.
WTH with that last sentence Anthony? Really?
Now that Jones is on, Edmonds should be in too right?
The only thing Edmonds is in at present is his nanny, and that reality TV show
I was told there would be trash can jokes.
It’s not JUST that Schilling’s a Republican. Hell, most ballplayers are. He’s said some nasty things and did the STUPID thing of telling the writers, “Please don’t vote for me, I only value the opinion of my contemporary players” the year before he was on pace to get elected.
Mattingly had the misfortune of an injury-shortened career PLUS being a batting average/defense guy at a position that values home runs, and retiring just as offense exploded AND people started devaluing batting average.
Mattingly was a victim of the human body like David Wright was. He’d have easily gotten to 450-500+ HR without his own body failing him. That’s the struggle of the marathon of the 162-game MLB baseball season.
What do you mean by ‘average of each stat’? Like, are we putting Bartolo Colon in the Hall because the average HOF pitcher has 235 wins and Colon had 247?
Mattingly penalized for that cheezy magnum pi stache- much more respect came him way as manager it would seem after he ditched the 70s look
I think Donnie looks better WITH the stache just like Keith Hernandez does hahaha
Carlos Beltran should be put in the Cheaters wing of the Hall of Fame just like all the Steroid & P E D Cheaters & the Wing that The Gambler Rose should go in
I’m confused why Buster Posey would get strong 1st ballot consideration. Maybe he had a longer career and peak than I remember. I’d rather let in Kendall before Posey
Probably more so due to his character as a person and teammate and decent stats to support it
3 rings help. Winning a batting title at catcher helps. Not being a perk like Kendall helps.
I think this is a weak class. Three borderline guys that I’d be fine with them either in or out. That’s not their fault, it’s just kind of whelming.
It’s fine. I said it’s FINE
Does the trash can get a plaque too?
Both are old school real five tool players. Unlike most of today’s players. Congratulations to both and well deserved and long overdue
Jim Edmonds lifetime OPS .903 ~ Andruw Jones .823
Jim Edmonds lifetime wRC+ 132 ~ Andruw Jones 111
Jim Edmonds 8 Gold Gloves ~ Andruw Jones 10
Jim Edmonds 64.5 fWAR ~ Andruw Jones 67.0 fWAR
For those who say that Jim Edmonds does not deserve HOF consideration, I would argue that he had a better overall career than Andruw Jones and along with Andruw was one of the greatest defensive center fielders of all time.
.254 lifetime BA. Tons of Ks. No ring. His last 5 years were garbage. He was done by age 31. If you are gonna base selection to the HOF on a 10-year stretch of production, you better be Sandy Koufax or Thurman Munson. He was neither. Lots of Gold Gloves, but is that what people really remember him for? There’s a reason why he didn’t make it in the 8 previous ballots: Because he doesn’t belong. He was a worthy but common player type: A very good player who produced runs and could field his position well but was not a superstar. He also stopped producing altogether the moment he passed age 30. Just because a guy is on the ballot doesn’t mean he HAS to be voted in. The HOF has been devalued mightily in the modern era. No one cares anymore because of episodes such as this.
Spot on! How a guy goes from 7.3% of the vote in year 1 on the ballot to getting in a few years later is just absurd. Like What changed, seriously?
“Lots of Gold Gloves, but is that what people really remember him for?”
Yes. Jones’ elite CF defense is literally a major component to why he was elected.
The modern voters have adjusted to today’s game and counting stats and vote accordingly. It’s not the same game from 25 years ago.
Finally Carlos15 makes it
Yes the Cheater made it & he should only go into the Cheaters Wing especially since he was one of the masterminds to the Cheating Houston Cheating Scandal of 2017
The players are really just a marketing ploy at this point for the HOF. You have to be great or really good with a lot of likability.
After all, if nobody gets in than nobody makes money. Not making money is un-American. It’s very important we lower our standards so we make money. Otherwise we will have high standards and no money…catch-22.
If they can put a guy in that’s close just so they can have the induction ceremony, they don’t care who makes it anymore. It’s been cheapened….but not enough to acknowledge and induct the guys who used PEDs (we all know there’s guys already in that used). It’s a mess and I don’t even really care anymore
I honestly can’t remember the last time I took it seriously. I didn’t even watch or check in for Jeter or Rivera. It’s just some cheap award on par with Rolaids reliever of the year at this point.
Mazeroski was the first one I can remember that was a joke….seemed to snowball after that?
“Seemed to” is meaningless, especially since it seems you weren’t paying attention in the 40s or 70s.
The Hall has no control over whether or not someone is elected…
Like, do you seriously not remember how the writers elected NO ONE in 2013 AND in 2021?
Who from the 40’s or 70’s snuck in like Harold Baines?
Also 2013 the writers were trying to make a statement about the steroid era and 2021….im not sure if you remember or not but there was little thing called COVID that was disrupting our lives everrrrr so slightly by shutting down the entire world. 2020 induction was canceled and pushed to September 2021.
THERE WAS STILL AN ELECTION IN 2021, IT’S NOT HARD TO LOOK THESE THINGS UP.
“Who from the 40s or 70s snuck in like Harold Baines?”
I mean, depends on what “snuck in” MEANS, exactly, but if we go by the definition of “player who never received any support from the writers and has a questionable case”, then:
Tommy McCarthy, Bobby Wallace, Elmer Flick, Lloyd Waner, Jesse Haines, Dave Bancroft, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Rube Marquard, Ross Youngs, George Kelly, Freddie Lindstrom, Joe Sewell, Travis Jackson, Rick Ferrell, and of course, Addie “I didn’t even play 10 seasons, I shouldn’t even have been ELIGIBLE” Joss.
To name a few.
(Just to be clear, when I said “40s and 70s”, I meant that’s when they were elected, not when they played.)
Complete coincidence no one got elected and they were only able to have one ceremony during a global pandemic in 2021. Got it. Completely practical they could have not 1 slap in the face to the public but 2 massive events during COVID outbreaks still popping up worldwide. Im assuming you’re like 12 if 5 years ago is that much of a blur.
Um, yeah?
How would they even be able to guarantee someone got elected? Have the writers meet beforehand and go “ok, this is who we’re voting in this year.”?
So in 2013, what happened? The Hall let the writers have one protest vote where no one got elected because…? “Oh yes, protest PED users and make it super obvious to everyone that there are problems with how we do things.” When was this decided, and by whom? Did the Hall plan ahead of time and have its veterans committee elect three people who had all died in the 1930s to really let the writers’ one-time protest shine?
And when did this process of “deciding ahead of time that the writers WILL elect SOMEBODY” start? What happened in 1996? Or 1971?
Now that I think about it, you may have a point. They absolutely planned 2021. They even went and made sure Derek Jeter retired a year early and made David Ortiz play one more season so that the best new player on the ballot in 2021 would be Mark Buehrle so that no one would SUSPECT anything!
I think it’s more like electing a president in the US. The committee just gets a small amount to choose from and it’s like “ok this cheater or that person?” Flip a coin.
I’ll never understand honoring a cheater. I honor sports that enforce fair play.
Explain to me again why Don Mattingly isn’t in the HoF?!
djc1877 – I don’t know that I really can. For me he meets the “fame” part of the Hall of FAME. But there’s an argument that perception of him wouldn’t be as a Hall of Famer had he had those core 5 years playing out of the media spotlight someplace like Milwaukee. If he’s put in a blind test of sheer numbers. He and John Olerud are virtually identical. But Id take Donnie Baseball at peak.
Don Mattingly seems to being out our philosophical THOUGHTS on what the Hall of Fame is. And I dont think it helps that we’re seeing players inducted scatter shot around him.
Mattingly might be the case where stats get his impact wrong. If you were say 10-20 between 1985-95…he’s an absolute legend. He’s a hero. If youre 25 now – he’s stories that don’t match the numbers.
My thought is he gets in by the Vet committee which is supposed to look into things that should play him up.
Because he has not received enough votes to be elected in any election he has participated in.
He’s my favorite player but Donnie Baseball lacks the longevity of counting stats. It sucks. Maybe the Veteran’s Committee one day.
Like David Wright, Donnie would have been a first-ballot unanimous if their dang spine problems didn’t get in the way. Pro baseball is a marathon of a season. Those who can stay consistent & healthy year after years are simply fading away into memories… Future HoF elections are going to be admitting less and less, so maybe they’d decide then to put Donnie on a plaque.
Writers: The guy with the most hits in MLB history is not allowed in the Hall because he placed bets on baseball
What a kid sees: Bet365 and DraftKings want you to place bets on every possible outcome of every game and MLB supports them.
Writers: Two of the top 5 (and a full 40% of the top 15) home run hitters in MLB history are not allowed in the Hall because they used PEDs
What a kid sees: Hall iof Famer Frank Thomas is on TV hawking drugs that enhance your performance during MLB games. And she’ll like it too.
Kevin Hart is currently in the works to create a 2nd, new Hall of Fame for sports to allow those like Charlie Hustle, Big Mac, Slammin’ Sammy, Balco Barry, & Manny-Being-Manny a place of their own finally. Their plaques are reportedly to be overexaggerated with a bronze enhancing chemical. Soon we will all be seeing the commercials for it DURING EVERY SINGLE AD BREAK OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER DURING EVERY SINGLE NFL, NBA, OR MLB GAME UNTIL SOMEBODY FINALLY INVENTS A TV OR APP TO AUTOMATICALLY MUTE KEVIN HART AND THE 1%’ER MIDDLE-CLASS-DRAINING SPORTS BETTING, DEBT-CAUSING EMPIRE. Until then…uh…Beltran gets to choose to enter as a Met?? NO PLEASE DO NOT…
MASSIVE flaw in your concept because IT’S NOT THE FING WRITERS WHO AREN’T PUTTING ROSE IN THE HALL OF FAME.
The Hall specifically created a rule that players banned from baseball weren’t eligible for the Hall of Fame right after Rose was banned. The writers HAVEN’T EVEN HAD A CHANCE TO VOTE ON HIM.
LEARN SOME THINGS.
First off, learn to stop using the caps lock key Donald. Second, Pete Rose received 41 votes from the writers as a write-in candidate his first year. By his second year, everyone knew that it was possible for him to be elected and the writers did not choose to elect him time after time after time. He was not banned from the Hall, he was banned from the ballot. The writers had many chances to still get him on if they chose to, but he never got over 50 votes.
Now tell me what else I need to learn Chuckles.
OK, here’s what you need to learn:
The Baseball Hall of Fame’s official website regarding “BBWAA Election Rules”.
Rule 3 (E): “Any player on Baseball’s ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.”
Rule 4 (B): “Write-in votes are not permitted.”
How more clearly do you want the rules written?
For the writers to elect Rose, they would have had to all agree to explicitly go against the Hall’s rules on voting and who was eligible, all while knowing the Hall would almost certainly ignore Rose’s election because they had JUST gone and created rules to prevent Rose’s election and all those write-in votes would have been against established rules.
Beltran’s plaque should be a trash can lid
I personally object to Beltran going into the HOF in a Mets uniform being a now-after-this-offseason-former 35+ year Mess loyal fan who averaged more than 100 games watched or attended in that span and more then 150+ games watched per season after the inception of MLB.TV…OH that reminds me I need to cancel that…
BOOOOOOO STEARNS Mets FANS!!!! RALLY WITH ME!!!
Beltran, please choose the option for NO UNIFORM. If you want to know why search up his press conference about being booed, the replay of his final at bat watching strike 3 to end the Mets 2006 NLCS like he was intentionally trying to get a walk rather than being an aggressive play-at-your-salary difference maker (a la Piazza or Wright), or search up the very detailed article called “The Sins of Carlos Beltran”…good read.
I actually was willing to give him a 2nd chance as a Mets fan when he really wanted to become the manager. That showed me he cared about how he was perceived and wanted to re-prove himself…well of course until the whole reveal that Oscar The Grouch was the mastermind behind the winning Asstros…
As a Dodger fan, I have reasons to negatively view both Jones and Beltran. That said, Jones absolutely should be in as a result of his defensive accomplishments alone. Jones is up there with Ozzie Smith and Brooks Robinson as players who were so great on defense, they should qualify on that alone. Add in his very productive offense during his time in Atlanta and you absolutely have a HOFer.
Beltran is a HOFer on numbers. What he did with the Astros, however, was worse than what any PED suspect did. You cannot justify putting Beltran in, but keeping Bonds/McGwire/Sosa/Clemens/Ramirez/Rodriguez out. I just don’t agree with that. That said, I would put all of those guys in, including Beltran.
Kind of agree, except for the Yankees…I don’t think without Judge they’d make the playoffs…have you seen their lineups?
Beltran won his first World Series with the cardinals in 2011, not the Astros.
Opens the door for cheaters.
Gaylord Perry feels bad you seem to have completely forgot he exists.
If you believe that Andruw Jones is an HOF’er, then may Lou Whitaker knock upon your door bearing a message and then some.
I can believe both are worthy of induction. I also don’t have a vote in the matter—–like everybody else on here.
Very good players, but it never occurred to me that I was watching Hall of Famers. Well, they’re far better than Jeff Kent…
Jones brothers unite in the hall! Best first jump I’ve ever seen. I remember every time I heard a commentator pronounce his name AUNdrew, never understood how a U at the end changed the sound of the A at the beginning. Congratulations Andruw well deserved
Schilling isnt being punished for being conservative. He’s being punished for being an A-hole.
He was on pace for election until he came out and told the BBWAA not to vote for him because he doesn’t respect them.
Curt Shilling
Jim Edmonds
Will Clark
Also, for everyone wondering how so-and-so is in or why so-and-so isn’t in…
Go to the bottom of a player’s Baseball-Reference page. There are several very detailed predictors with links to explanations to how they’re figured out. The elections of Beltran and Andruw Jones are not weird outliers.
Beltrán was a key part of the Astros video pitch tipping scandal….
Hall voters apparently pick and choose which type of cheaters they approve of.
Yeah, it’s… been like that for a while. Since the beginning, really.
Spitballers and sign stealers? Let them in, after making them wait a little bit.
Gamblers and steroid users? GET OUTTA HERE!