The Cardinals have added their desired top-of-the-rotation starter. St. Louis announced the signing of right-hander Sonny Gray to a three-year guarantee with a club option for the 2027 season. It’s a reported $75MM deal, while the option is valued at $30MM and comes with a $5MM buyout (which is included in the overall guarantee).
Gray, who celebrated his 34th birthday earlier this month, hit free agency on the heels of a dominant 2023 campaign with the Twins that saw him earn his third career All Star appearance and finish as the runner-up in AL Cy Young award voting behind Yankees righty Gerrit Cole. The veteran hurler posted a sterling 2.79 ERA (54% better than league average by measure of ERA+) along with an MLB-best 2.83 FIP in 184 innings of work across 32 starts. His 24.3% strikeout rate was a top-25 figure among qualified starters this season, while his 47.3% groundball rate ranked ninth among that same group. Only Framber Valdez, Zach Eflin, Justin Steele, and Kyle Bradish posted better figures in both stats this year.
The deal will be the first free agent contract of Gray’s 11-year major league career, as the 18th overall pick of the 2011 draft signed an extension with the Reds upon being traded to Cincinnati in early 2019 that covered the 2020-22 seasons, with a team option for 2023. At the time of the three-year, $30.5MM deal, Gray was coming off a brutal 2018 campaign with the Yankees that saw him post a 4.90 ERA (86 ERA+) with a 4.17 FIP. Fortunately for both the Reds and Gray, the righty quickly turned things around with a 2.87 ERA, 175 1/3 inning performance during the 2019 season. Altogether, Gray posted a 3.22 ERA (138 ERA+) and 3.34 FIP over the life of his extension, though the final two seasons of the deal were spent with the Twins after the righty was shipped to Minnesota in exchange for right-hander Chase Petty just before the 2022 season.
Strong as Gray’s platform season in 2023 was, there were some potential red flags in his performance. Most notably, Gray allowed a microscopic 5.2% of his fly balls to leave the yard for home runs, by far a career low that flies in the face of his career-high 6.9% barrel rate. That disparity leaves Gray with expected stats that are significantly less impressive than his actual production last season, including a 3.64 xFIP and a 3.95 SIERA. While those are both still top-20 figures among qualified starters this season, it’s reasonable to be concerned that Gray’s elite home run prevention figures may not hold up over time, particularly as he enters his mid-thirties. Of course, a move from the Twins’ home ballpark of Target Field (which has played slightly homer-friendly in recent years) to the Cardinals’ home field of Busch Stadium could help alleviate those concerns to some extent. While Busch played as an essentially neutral ballpark in terms of home runs in 2023, the stadium has been among the best for suppressing the long ball in recent years.
Though a deal for Gray comes with its fair share of risk, it’s hard to imagine a team better situated to enjoy the benefits of his services than the Cardinals. St. Louis starters posted a collective ERA of 5.02 in 2023, the fifth-worst figure in the majors. The club’s struggles with starting pitching this season led president of baseball operations John Mozeliak to announce the club’s desire to add three starting pitchers this winter to a rotation that included little certainty beyond veteran righty Miles Mikolas headed into 2024. Between deals for Lance Lynn, Kyle Gibson, and now Gray, St. Louis has accomplished that goal before the calendar flips to December.
Lynn and Gibson both pitched to the results of a back-end starter in 2023 with ERAs of 5.73 and 4.73, respectively. Adding Gray to the mix gives the Cardinals a bonafide, front-of-the-rotation arm to whom they could confidently assign a playoff start to as they look to turn things around on the heels of a 91-loss season that saw them finish dead last in the NL Central this year. Gray was among the top free agent starters this winter, coming in at the #9 spot of MLBTR’s Top 50 MLB free agents list with a projected four-year, $90MM contract. That projection ended up a year and $15MM above the contract Gray received, though our $22.5MM projected average annual value was actually slightly below the $25MM figure Gray ultimately received.
It’s possible the deal completes the club’s 2024 rotation with a projected starting five of Gray, Mikolas, Gibson, Lynn, and left-hander Steven Matz. That would make for a rotation entirely comprised of veteran arms well past their 30th birthdays; Matz, 33 in May, would be the youngest of the group. That being said, it’s at least feasible the club could look to add a younger arm to the rotation later in the offseason. Matz has seen considerable use out of the bullpen during his two years in St. Louis, leaving a plausible path to a fourth rotation addition should the club to make one. In addition to Gray, the Cardinals have been connected to both NPB ace Yoshinobu Yamamoto and a potential reunion with southpaw Jordan Montgomery this offseason.
That being said, it’s unclear whether the signing of Gray will preclude the club from adding either of those arms from a payroll perspective. It’s worth noting that Mozeliak has indicated payroll could stay relatively stagnant compared to last year’s expected figure prior to their sell-side moves at the trade deadline. That would likely leave the Cardinals with around $40-50MM of payroll space to work with this offseason, $22MM of which has already been dedicated to the signings of Gibson and Lynn. Between the $25MM reported cost for Gray and the Cardinals’ reported desire to add multiple arms to the bullpen this offseason, the club seemingly has minimal financial wiggle room for other moves of significance going forward.
In addition to the $75MM the Cardinals are committed to Gray, the club stands to lose their second-highest pick in the 2024 draft and $500K in international bonus pool space from the signing of a qualified free agent. The Twins, who extended Gray a qualifying offer earlier this month, are in line to receive a compensatory draft pick after the first round in next year’s draft, as Gray signed for more than $50MM. It’s the second consecutive offseason during which St. Louis has signed a qualified free agent after the Cardinals signed catcher Willson Contreras away from the Cubs last winter.
The Cardinals weren’t the only known suitor for Gray’s services this winter, as the Braves have frequently been connected to the right-hander in recent weeks. It’s unclear whether the Braves ultimately made an offer to Gray, but the veteran righty represents the second front-of-the-rotation arm Atlanta has shown interest in who ultimately signed elsewhere this offseason. The club reportedly offered right-hander Aaron Nola a deal worth $162MM over six years prior to him landing with the Phillies on a seven-year, $172MM deal. While there’s still plenty of front-of-the-rotation caliber arms available this offseason, it’s worth noting that Atlanta’s financial outlook is somewhat murky and the club has already signed Reynaldo Lopez to a three-year deal with an eye toward stretching him out as a starter.
Jon Heyman of the New York Post first reported the Cardinals and Gray were likely to finalize a contract. Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic reported it would be a three-year, $75MM guarantee. Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported the option value.
Image courtesy of USA Today Sports.
Nice signing.
Good place for him.
Where is the link to the free agent competition entries? I want to see how I’m doing!
As a Cubs fan, I hope Gray regresses back to a mid-rotation starter or worse.
This would be great if it pans out. He’s the one I wanted them to sign
I’m happy Mo & Co stood by their words and signed 3 starters, including Gray, we all should be.. even crazier, all 3 deals will be done prior to December 1st. I wonder, who would’ve ever guessed that?
Don’t stop there. Trade for another one. Bieber, Cease, Glasnow, etc.
I don’t want to see a trade unless some team is willing to take prospects. The offense wasn’t good last year. They can’t afford to subtract from it. The spare parts like Carlson, O’Neill, and Burleson won’t bring back a proven starter.
Who on the Cardinals would bring back a proven starter? Maybe Donovan and Nootbaar together.
Yea Donovan, Hence, Scott, Roby…Cardinals have plenty to trade
Seems to me that Donovan and Nootbaar are the most attractive for trading. The others aren’t that great.
Donovan can be the center piece but Hence is a top 50 prospect, in which I’m sure he will rise in the rankings, Scott looks great for a future CF…Roby came over on the Monty trade…those are all good prospects
Scott is going to suck. His only skill is speed. He made the futures game as a gimic and he played the part. Scott is just newest Nootbaar, Carlson, Edman, Piscotty, Hazelbaker, and on and on and on, just with more speed.
Lol I guess you can say that…but Scott is still a good prospect…I could agree but I think different. It really doesn’t matter because honestly neither me nor you know if he will be worth anything…but as of right now he is a good prospect…but hey thanks for your opinion…but did you say Nootbar…ok I’ll take another Nootbar
Looks to me like their plans are probably to trade for some bullpen help, which is much more realistic, given the club’s expendable asset depth and it’s value.
I will be extremely surprised if Mo & Co decides to spend more money on the starting rotation. I don’t think anyone should expect it, or be upset when it doesn’t happen. $40ish million doesn’t stretch too far for a 2024 salary.
Following what they’ve been doing which is the “guys we’ve always liked” road, I’m expecting someone like Kimbrel or Joe Kelly for the bullpen.
Well if it’s to bring in Glasnow or a cease or bieber I say clear up some extra players. Hate to see edman go, but him or Donovan would have to be included. Throw in a liberatore or a Thompson, an oneil or carlson and a mcgreevy or graceffo. The other team is going to want something good and we have that to spare. I say go for it. Most of the team isn’t getting any younger. Or try your hardest to sign snell or Yamamoto or Montgomery and use your trade pieces for BP arms
You’d have to be nuts to give the Rays anything much for a pitcher with little surplus value if he stays healthy – and thats a big ‘if’.
Donovan is likely worth 10-15 WAR over 5 controllable years. He’s a Cease trade piece, not Glasnow. Glasnow’s a salary dump.
Salary dump does not equal cheap or free, and Glas certainly has surplus value. Just saying….
Mo had a plan all along
It was a plan.
But was it a good plan? I’m not convinced.
They are in position to make a trade now
Braves dodged bullet
I had a feeling that’d be the case…farm system is too light…AA wants to keep those picks.
He is 34 with an injury history. While he is not “old”, the Braves don’t need another “getting older, frequently injured” types of pitchers. I’m glad he might sign somewhere else.
Braves now landing Snell. Mariners reel in Yamamoto. Dodgers trade for Burnes.
Mariners sign Snell, Padres sign Yam and I agree, a Dodger trade for Burnes seems to make a lot of sense. But then again, a Padres trade for Burnes make sense too. A lot of trade history there.
Unless the Mets, Red Sox, or Yankees sign Yamamoto. The Mets and Yankees are also strong possibilities for Montgomery.
You would be praising the braves had they signed him.
The Braves could have used Gray last year. The Phillies having 2 aces has been the difference in the postseason the last 2 years.
Dodged a bullet lol. Keep telling yourself that.
Wonder what direction the Braves go in now ? Either
Nola or Gray were the 2 SP I wanted them to get thru FA.
Now do they make a run @ Montgomery or trade for Burnes or Glasnow.
If AA can get Yamamoto and Duvall I feel like the Braves are set. I personally didn’t want Gray, or any of the other FA SP available!
Duvall is in my view a true bargain. Obviously, his streakiness and injury history are for all to see. During his limited time in Boston, he just seems like a Steve Pearce type who will shine when it matters most. I’m still hoping the Sox trade multiple outfielders and then re-sign Duvall.
Duvall is the most surefire luxury signing I can think of for any team that’s a legitimate contender. If you’ve got the funds, some depth, and a spot on the roster, he’s absolutely worth shelling out for. The fact that he’s constantly injured keeps his counting stats low-ish, too, which I think makes his market price a good bargain for the kind of output you get when he’s healthy. There were stretches last year where it seemed like he could breathe on a ball and it would leave the yard.
I don’t think we get Yamamoto but I wonder if a Shene Bieber for Marcel Ozuna works for Cleveland.
They are missing a big bat & Ozuna had a great year
And he would be playing with motivation of another contract or the very least his option to be picked up.
Uh, no, the Guardians are not doing that.
Agree it wont get done, at least not straight up
Hahahahaha, it’s gonna take a whole lot more than Ozuna. You probably have to pay someone to take him.
Maybe Ozuna and 10M-15M would work
And an extra prospect on top of anyone else included in the trade.
Gross. Mistake for Sonny and his career. No World Series for him
About as likely as getting one in Minnesota.
Also as likely as getting one with the Yankees, although he obviously would never go back. My point is that even though they win more games than they lose despite their inefficiencies, they are not going to win number 28 anytime soon, along with getting their 41st AL pennant, but of course I’d love to be wrong about it. Unlike Brian Cashman and some other Yankee fans, I am not blaming the Astros for it, despite what I think about them.
And im sure he will use stacks of $100 bills to wipe away those tears.
From an Iowa with zero professional teams and two lousy college teams both busted for gambling. Pete rose must love corn haha
What are the Cardinals cooking with this rotation
probably Bob Evans or Cracker Barrel! haha
Cardinals are a great fit for Gray—he’s always performed better for mid-market teams. A lot of my friends in Boston were clamoring for a signing but I have ghostly remembrances of how bad he was with the Yankees.
That was years ago. He’s learned and seems to have adjusted nicely
He was bad with the Yankees because their pitching philosophy and what they wanted him to throw when they wanted him to throw it didn’t fit his strengths.
@steelerbravenation, some of that is true. Their pitching coach at the time —Larry Rothschild, IIRC—did try to make some additions to his pitching arsenal that didn’t work, but they also let him go back to what he was doing with the A’s, and he still wasn’t succeeding. He also admitted that he let the NY experience get in his head. Those last two points get left out of the revisionism attempts. Gray used to have a deer-in-the-headlights look in his eyes whenever he was interviewed with the Yankees. The truth is somewhere between the two narratives.
I would have been fine if Sonny got a second chance in NY under their current pitching coach Matt Blake, but not at the expense he’ll cost. Too risky for both sides. The Cards seem like a good fit, assuming Heyman is to be trusted here!
LordD99- please stop you are killing me right now, truthfully!!! Lolololololol!!! Sonny-back-in-NY? Still laughing. Hope all is well. Heyman is trusted again now? Be careful-Arson Judge.
When they got him & he was successful then they try to change things would effect anybody’s confidence. Especially with the NY media jumping down his throat.
Definitely put a bad taste in his mouth & don’t think he would ever want to return to NY or any big market for that matter.
He is definitely a better pitcher than he showed in NY. I really don’t know how Yankee fans tolerate Cashman at this point.
CaptainJudge, there was never a chance it would happen, but Cashman is stubborn. Remember, he brought back Javier Vazquez! As for Heyman, whenever free agents are involved, I always wait for the final announcement.
Yeah, I’d only have been fine giving Sonny a second act if it was a mid-season pickup this year when both sides could have evaluated each other. No way the Yankees, or any major market team, could commit to a $75 million deal not knowing how Sonny would react. Worked out well for him. Hope he continues to pitch well in St. Louis.
Cardinals a great spot for him. No pressure and will never get booed…
Oh, he has a very good chance to get booed in St. Louis. Aside from pulling off a Garry Templeton, Cardinals fans really hate it when high-paid free agents don’t perform to the level of their contract. St. Louis hated players like Tino Martinez and Dexter Fowler for that reason. They were both booed a lot.
Nobody booed Fowler. His contract might have been an over pay and a knee jerk reaction to Heyward leaving, but he was still the best player on the team for the two years he was here.
I don’t think he goes in as a Cardinal. He won an MVP in Saint Louis but his best number still happened in Arizona. He has several MVP caliber seasons in the dessert.
It is entirely possible that Gray did better after he left for the same reason Monty did better after he left.
None of their signings were sexy. But the Cardinals did well to get some SP before it all goes crazy with the dollars. Smart moves.
Idk we haven’t seen what gray signed for and the other two seemed to be pretty pricey for their production.
They did do a good job of getting pitchers before they all ran out.
Yep, they did what other teams did not and to tgis point not insane money.
Lynn and Gibson may be somewhat overpaid but there’s no such thing as a bad one year deal.
After last year, can Lynn still be referred to as a pitcher?
Sonny Gray is a really good starting pitcher. As a Cubs fan, I’m kind of envious of the way the Cards went about fixing their rotation. You may not like the first two guys they signed, but as 4th/5th options, they’re acceptable. Meanwhile, the Cardinals did what they said they would do: they signed 3 pitchers. How many front offices tell you something that detailed and then go out and do it right away?
@coop- I love my Cubs to. I wouldn’t really worry about Sonny Gray truthfully, you ever watch him pitch in NY? Lolololololol!!!
Cards needed a 1, a 3 and a 5.
In typical Cardinal fashion they did less than that by getting a 1.5 and two 4.5s.
That doesn’t get it done for the team’s needs.
They’ll need to pull a trade for Cease to make this offseason a success, although I don’t want to look at what we’d have to give up to get Cease.
You don’t think the guy who finished 2nd in CY voting is a number one. Do you believe there is only one number one per league?
He’s obviously going to be projected as the #1 for StL in 2024, and rightfully so. Compared to 2023’s rotation, he’s a serious upgrade. Mo & Co could not make the money it had available stretch far enough to pay for 3 serious upgrades in today’s market. I’m just happy our club stepped up and is walking away with one of the higher profile names available at a position that was clearly the team’s weakness, even prior to the 2023 season.
The Cardinals must be getting ready to open a retirement complex in Ballpark Village and are intending to have some ready made customers from their starting rotation after 24 season is over…
if you think 34 is old thats insane
I would give up probably a kidney and half a lung to be 34 again.
ISOB…as a healthy genX guy……gotta nix the “probably” part.
Where do I sign?
to be 34 again.
======================
I like being old. No more worrying about raising the family, paying off the house, college tuition, retirement savings.
I wake up in the morning with nothing to do, and by the end of the day, I am only half through.
Joe – I’m close to that point that you described but I have to add, I can’t bend my elbow today because of too many hours swinging a leaf blower yesterday so getting old has its down points too!
Joe…I’m 47, don’t have kids, don’t have a house payment, bachelor-type, but would like to be 34 again just to have a chance at different life decisions & explore avenues not taken, but I understand where you’re coming from. I’m just at an awkward age I guess haha.
Ig, at 47 you are prime to make any corrective steps you desire with plenty of time left in the tank to see the results. If you feel changes are best, make a plan and work toward that path. I’m sure all of us have a little bit of “good have done that differently” in our history. Better to fix at 47 than 57. Good luck.
@Longtime Really appreciate the encouraging comment…on paper 47 looks like a huge number that may as well signify the good times have passed me by but I don’t necessarily ‘feel’ 47 yo internally…(47 is the new 32!!) haha but it’s also looking at where my friends are in their lives & having very elderly parents & realizing wow time is marching along! Anyways sorry for off-topic mid-life crisis ordeal guys…
ISOB you are part of a very large fraternity, don’t worry….
I was both of my parents primary caretakers (am the youngest of 5), they were part of the greatest generation. We all have those “looking around and in the mirror” moments!
At 34 I was in the best shape of my life. I worked out 4 days a week and ran 5k 4 days a week. I had my abs and my 5k times were under 22 minutes (up from under 20 in my early 20s).
But life doesn’t stand still seasons change.
Been blessed to make it almost to 60 so I can’t complain. My knowledge of how to do things is there, but my body can no longer execute the things it used to consistently and takes MUCH longer to recover.
Such is the way of life.
The wear and tear on professional athletes builds up. For some by age 34 they’ve been more broken than can easily be repaired or replaced.
I remember a radio talk show a long time ago. The caller was complaining about his career, and the host asked about going back to school at night to get his degree.
The caller responded by saying it would take ten years and he’d be 37 by the time he graduated. The astute host then asked him how old he’d be in ten years if he didn’t go back to school.
JB, thanks for that laugh!
Am just getting up for a new job interview, that story will help me through the morning!
CP – good luck
Good luck cpd
It is older now than it was when PED’s were part of the game. It was a joke and exaggeration of course but having to point that out and means it wasn’t as funny as intended. For the record a retirement villa in Ballpark Village is actually a good idea especially if they include a season ticket package. I would head there in my declining years for a short stay until they fleeced me of every dime I had ever saved and could no longer afford it…
34, plus adding to 36 y/o: Lynn/Gibson, and Miles Mikolas (35 y/o) & Matz (32 y/o).
Their rotational average age is 34.6 – (rounded) is 35 y/o.
Run – I can’t say thst I like relying on these particular 5 (but not a Cardinal fan so there is that) but really, the Cardinals have at least rounded out a viable 5 man rotation which almost every other team can’t say right now.
You’re right, but we’re not even at the Winter Meetings and while they just set their rotation, they possibly also took themselves out of the running of legitimate upgrades, as well. Considering the rotation added 2 guys that were some of the most hit in 2023 (Lynn, Gibson), could they have done better if they waited it out?
Could they have done better – without know what they know, I can’t answer that. They know their budget. They likely have some agent feedback. They know their window – these contracts are 1, 1 and 3 so a lot of 2014 flexibility here.
Are there better SP’s in FA – oh definitely. Are these the guys I hoped my team signed – oh NO.
The next 5-10 days should see a domino fall that triggers an avalanche and maybe, Cards felt like this was a conservative safe bet to be viable and leave options for 24 in play.
Like investing and insurance – risk tolerance is the answer.
I don’t see us as disagreeing but maybe looking at the situation differently.
Now they just need 3 more #5 starters to handle the 5-7th innings and their golden!
A CY runner up is a bad pitcher? Also, it’s “they’re”.
Still believe the Red Birds are moving to a 6-man rotation.
A 4.90 ERA is bad, but it isn’t *brutal*.
I’m not believing this until someone other than John Heyman says it’s true…. this is giving me some arson judge vibes
Heyman’s job: Feeding the rumor fire. He IS prolific …if rarely insightful. Anecdotally, I would say he’d be under the Mendosa Line in terms of accuracy.
welp, looks like ken is confirming it. i guess it’s true
lol arson judge feeding the fire you guys rule
Well they signed 2 35 year olds and a 34 year old. Can’t say they lack experience.
So is Matz, at 32.5 years old, the “kid”?
Good signing as long as it isn’t for more than 3 or 4 years. As others have said we still need another solid starter to add to the rotation.
I sure wouldn’t mind seeing Stroman in a Cards jersey
I agree, but I don’t think a possible “fourth” new starter comes through free agency. They still need to get rid of a few players.
Besides, as much as Stroman’s pitching style has always fit the Cardinals, I’ve always felt Mo and Co. were afraid of Stroman’s personality. He doesn’t seem boring enough for the Cardinals.
Yes I think you are bang on with that. Stroman would be great but maybe a little too much excitement for Cards management
They don’t have the money for Stroman. A trade is the only way they can get another decent starter now.
Congrats to Cards fans…Gray is a bulldog & a true professional. He will do you proud. Can’t believe Mo worked so fast, on a mission! Now if he would jettison Marmol & possibly make a trade with the M’s for Donovan.
Don’t trade Donovan. He is too valuable.
Right on par with the Braves since AA took over. All talk, no action with rotation pieces.
They don’t talk, you and everyone else does. And there’s been less than a half dozen rotation options signed this early. He’s acquired 5 possible pen pieces not including Lopez, who could be both rotation/pen. AA likes to eat his sides before his entree. Let him eat.
Congrats, Cards. You pulled off what you needed to. I’m envious.
Let’s see how this plays out. I wanted Gray to sign with Cincy too but I would be leery of 3 yrs for a total of $75M. No one knows but maybe a trade acquisition will be better?
Ownership’s self-imposed restraints notwithstanding, the $25/year is not a big deal when it’s only a three year deal. I think everyone was expecting 4 years and there was always the fear that it would go to 5 to get over the top. This is a good contract.
Don’t the cardinals lose all those compensation picks if they go over the luxury tax? I could be wrong. Drawing 3 million fans a year, there shouldn’t be many payroll limitations.
With a 52M payroll so far and less obligations in future years outside Greene, it would have been totally doable.
Gray was never a fit for the Reds. They are looking for a vet on a one year prove it deal or end of career deal. Or a long reliever/spot starter type. Cincy has a full rotation with a few guys that project to have a ceiling that approximates Gray’s. And they have a couple of prospects PLUS Lowder that will be banging on the door shortly.
The Reds have built their rotation the correct way: acquiring starting pitching thru trades and the draft. The best way a small market team can compete.
As a reds fan I’m jeaous, but I hope it works out for y’all
Good signing. Should be pretty competitive in the central as-is but interested to see if there are more moves in store.
This is good. Probably means they are out on Yammamoto but they were never realistically in on him.
They should make a run at Glasnow. They have enough innings in the rotation that they can risk his injury history and go for the high upside.
Noice
Initially happy with the signing, but slightly disappointed we won’t have moto. Also hesitant to be too happy without knowing the terms. Decent rotation.
Decent rotation.
===================
Therein lies the problem, imo. It is a $72M+ rotation. It feels like it should be more than decent.
It’s a short term expensive rotation though. FF 2 years and that rotation payroll is pretty clean. (They better develop starters before then)
Is it the worst rotation per $ spent right now though? Excluding the Nats because Stras is done. Him and Corbin would easily make that rotation the worst per $.
Well, it’s a big improvement from last season.
Does this signing mean that St. Louis has found their three starters to fill out thier rotation for 2024. Or do the Cardinals try and make another deal for Cease or Glasnow,.
I’m hoping for one more SOLID starting pitcher.
Please trade for Bieber.
That’s an interesting looking rotation. The ball is going to be in play a lot. In theory, it works as long as the defense holds up their end of the bargain and the couple of guys who get hit in the air can keep it off barrels often enough.
It’s also, as the article states, an aged rotation.
Pretty much win now.
But makes sense with players like Goldschmidt and Arenado around.
All in all, give Cardinals a B- or so. Like Gray, but would have passed on Lynn for a younger SP in FA or trade, as they do have pieces.
The Cards are assembling the all-geriatric rotation. They can’t pitch night games because that’s after their bedtime. They won’t start 4pm EST games because that’s when they watch their stories on TV. No loud music in the clubhouse. Stay off their lawn.
“small market” Cardinals with another pricey veteran! Will the league give them 2 extra 3rd rounders this year or just one?
Wahhhhhhhhh!!! Wahhhhhhhhh!! Wahhhhhhhhhh!!!
This is how you sound.
Exactly!
Cards don’t qualify any more, know your facts
Good signing. Very reliable starter.
Career FIP: 3.57
Career kwERA: 3.60
Career GBkwERA: 3.27
That’s what you should expect from him in terms of what he can control.
If it’s truly the 3y/$75M I just saw in on X, it’s absolute robbery by the Cardinals.
Was really hoping they wouldn’t go more than 3 yrs. Nice deal. Gotta pay up for the FA’s.
How is that robbery? That’s about the AAV that Nola just got.
The years make it a robbery. People forget how foolish free agency tends to get.
Gray isn’t young. You’re paying him the money Nola will get at the same age. It’s not a robbery. It’s market price. I like the signing.
Not a robbery, just a good deal for both sides.
It’s fair market value for Gray, who is 34.
@dshires4
Spotrac suggests his market value is $20.3M per year and he got $25M, so then the Cards paid more than market value for his services.
Not sure how cosistent they are. The Spotrac page I viewed projected him at $22 mil/yr. That’s a very rough estimate/projection, meaning no one would have likey been suprised to see him get $25/yr on a 3 yr deal.
@Charlie’sSinging
Interesting. I’m looking at Sonny Gray’s Spotrac page under the TAB called Market Value and it continues to show $20.3M per year as fair market value, so I’d say the Cards paid more than market value for his services.
Dang it wanted him on the orioles
Redbirds rotation has the potential to carry them to the 2019 World Series.
A bonifided top of the rotation are is quite a stretch. He had a great year at 34, but come on.
Nice Signing
Slightly overpaid
But nice nonetheless
All FA signings are overpays.
Gray is a solid pitcher. It’s only 3 years and 25m a year. Don’t really see how it’s an overpay
I’m hearing the Braves were a close 7th but their offer topped out at 3 yrs/9M.
Wow ..25 mil per for him?..as a red sox fan i guess i just recall the younger version getting smoked nightly while he was with the yankees and the aav seems steep..
Yankees pitching kept him low of his potential, once he left the bronx he pitched to a way better extent, this is around the projected aav as the top pitchers on the market, Gray being one of them
mo finally got his ace! anything is possible now. The high payroll is worth all the critics tears
Glad to have Gray, but to say he’s an ace is a stretch.
Kind of depends on the definition of an ace. I think he is, especially after a 2nd place Cy Young finish last year.
Probably rougly equal to last year’s payroll now, and they are done spending. Trade still possible (hopefully), but likely not for a high dollar value guy.
… good deal.
If their rotation stays relatively healthy, it’s not that bad of a rotation. Matz and Mikolas can be solid, everyone clowned on the Lynn and Gibson signings but they’re inning eaters at worst, and Sonny Gray just placed top 5 in Cy Young voting. Not a bad rotation whatsoever
I see one good starter and four guys who will likely have ERAs over 4.00. The one plus is the bullpen shouldn’t get as torn up early as they did last year.
Not the bullpen guys who pitch with a lead, anyways. If you get innings from all but Gray, they will be few leads to protect.
Ha. I understand that sentiment. Gibson pitches very well in 40-45% of his starts, so there’s that. With Mikolas, you just don’t know who you’re getting from year to year. It’s anyone’s guess who’s going to show up this year. Hoping Matz can keep that momentum he had before the injury, but he’s probably only going to be good for 5.-6 most starts either way. If we get anything out of Lynn, I’ll be happy. It wouldn’t be a complete shock if he can get back to serviceable…but it also wouldn’t be a shock to see him tank. A lot of question marks in this rotation for sure.
Well Mo, you said you were going to get 3 starters and no one can call you a liar. The team isn’t any better than last year though, maybe worse still. 3rd place finish in the Central at best, and that will take some effort. Still missing an outfield with RBI production and major concerns with Goldschmidt gooing jnto the year. But you got some pieces that could be very tradable at the deadline.
The rotation has a higher floor and (depending on your point of view regarding Flaherty) a higher ceiling.
Don’t understand the overpay for Lynn & Gibson
If I was a Cards fan woulda much rather seen that money used for Montgomery & have had traded for another arm using the OF depth
But each is own I guess
Good point. Maybe one of Gibson and Lynn pan out…maybe. As for Gray, $75M total guarantee for what’s likely to be three reasonably effective years is a pretty good signing. Interesting Gray didn’t see a 4th year out there, and took this.
Aav on 3 years might have been pretty close to what he was getting offered for 4? Projections all seemed to be around 4/80-4/85
I think he was most likely to sign with St. Louis or Atlanta, so if Atlanta didn’t offer it, that made it easy.
100% agree. Combine that money for a top flight guy then either make a trade or fill the back end of the rotation internally.
I get your point. Dont think Monty wants to come back. def wants texas again
The Braves offer Nola $27 a year but let Gray pass for $25 a year
I don’t understand
AA gotta be working on something big
I really am starting to believe the Braves will get Cease & sign him to an extension before ST
Aaron Nola was a completely different deal!
Not only would the Braves add a nice Starting Pitcher, but the Phillies would lose a Starting Pitcher!
But they didn’t get him — and that’s even giving credence to those reported numbers. Nola wanted to be comfortable all along, while ATL really valued quality IP he provides. At that price point, I think they can still find that whether through trade or free agency, if they so choose — and possibly not lose a comp draft pick.
I’m sure the Braves “reported” offer of 6/162 included option years with only 4 guaranteed. Gray is a little more perplexing. I’m sure the Braves would offer 3 years too
The Braves own the NL East for the next 5 years.
They should be interested in elite arms, and only elite arms. If they guy won’t be in their postseason rotation or one of their 3-4 top bullpen arms throughout the postseason, they’re wasting their money and / or trade chips.
He is a leaky vessel. As the Cards will find out to their dismay.
Just imagine if we would have combined the money we spent on Lynn and Gibson on one more top flight guy and then filled the back of the rotation with an internal competition. We’d actually be a playoff team with a chance to win a round or two! Good signing, but they messed up on the money given out on the first two. Unless they manage a trade for another top tier guy during the offseason, we’re well short of where we need to be.
Talk about an overpay. Can’t wait to see what Ohtani gets…
Baffles me how Gibson and Lynn can still pull in 10 million.
It is definitely ridiculous that they still can for sure, but every year there are multiple teams that are desperate for starting pitching, just like there are multiple teams every year that are desperate for relief pitching. There is your explanation to something that should no longer happen.
Ohtani has long been projected at north of $40mil/yr on a long term deal. I don’t think this changes that at all.
Ohtani may be the greatest baseball player ever once his career is over. He’s better than Trout and Soto put together. No amount of money you pay Ohtani will ever be too much
You’re kidding right? Trout in his prime runs circles around Ohtani its not even close.
Trout hasn’t and never will pitch. Ohtani has the chance to be in the discussion of Cy Young, MVP, Gold Glove, and Silver Slugger all simultaneously; he’s on another planet
Red Sox running out of pitchers to sign! They better get with it
All this does is leapfrog them past the pirates.
Until Burnes is traded and the Ace of the Brewers is………
I think you’ll be disappointed. Just like your wife.
And the cubs
Not overpay great signings all of them
Going for an all-Twins rotation, I see.
Not the flashiest move, but probably the best “realistic” move they could have made. The benefit of signing Gray as opposed to trading for Cease or Glasnow is they have kept all of their pitching prospects (whom they seem to believe in) and all of their position player depth.
Now we get to see if any of Hence, Roby, Robberse, Rom, Thompson, Hjerpe, Graceffo, Kloffenstein, or McGreevy (etc.) will pan out in St. Louis.
And all things considered, I am personally a fan of Gray and always have been. I always thought he’d be a good fit for the Cardinals.
Standing on its own, I really like this deal for the Cardinals. But this signing, in the wake of the deals for Lynn and Gibson, not so much. Sonny Gray is a nice #2, but unless there is a trade forthcoming for another high-ceiling starter (Glasnow, Cease, Gilbert?), I do not like where the Cardinals are. If you take all 3 guys together, plus Mikloas, you have at best +/- 700 innings of average and aging starting pitching. That has value, but probably not $70M in value with no more room at the Inn. With the Cardinals history, they treat an offseason like a shopping list and I’m shocked that they were able to sign 3 guys anyway. I have a feeling that Mo’s about to check out.
I could see a trade coming. Have to relieve areas where there is a logjam of sorts. If they could acquire Glasnow or Cease this would be an excellent offseason. Gray has 3 years but the other 2 are 1 year deals. Nothing tying them up
I agree. He has a contract until after 2025, but I think he steps down after the year. When they suck agaon, Marmol will be fired this year. He’s given out two one year deals and a 3 year deal l. So he isnt handcuffing his successor with bad contract and he’s not filling up roster spots for the long term, giving his successor a lot of roster composition abilities. While allowing his successor to hire his own manager. Gray is merely a token signing for the fans to show they did something and sell a few more tickets. But the writing on the wall is reading another lame duck year for the Cardinals and Mozeliak. Alll the more reason to think Goldschmidt will be dealt at some point for prospects since he’ll be gone next year anyway. Just hope sooner than later because I don’t think he’ll have a very good year at his age, history says non PED first basemen fall off a cliff production wise at age 36.
In a vacuum, this is an excellent deal. If they somehow add another bona fide starter (I don’t expect this) then the relative disappoint of both Gibson and Lynn is neutralized.
Things that can improve the grade of their rotation signings as a whole, without new additions:
1. Matz stays healthy and throws 150 innings of the quality he provided in the second half last year.
2. Lynn bounces back to a relative degree due to a reduction of homeruns allowed.
3. Someone not named Sonny Gray gets hurt for most of the year and a young arm steps up and pitches at a high level (Graceffo, Thompson, Libby, etc.). Based on Mo’s comments earlier this offseason, I think the FO reasonably expects Graceffo to have a chance to surprise them in the Spring.
Anyway you slice it, the Cardinals are well-positioned to compete for the division again.
Solid pickup for the Cards. The rotation is taking shape nicely
After the top 50 FA list came out the majority of the projections looked very high to me.
I saw several comments about shorter years and higher AAV, and kept seeing the same response:
“AAV doesn’t matter. Total guarantee matters. Teams will lengthen a deal to reduce AAV after they decide the total guarantee they are willing to pay”
Well, so far it looks like the projections were a bit of an over reaction to last year’s longer, smaller AAV top end contracts.
Jim Crane and the Astros have always looked at shorter commitments and smaller total guarantee as the priorities. It looks like other teams are following suit as a market correction to last year.
Fascinating to watch. I hope it helps the Astros extend some of their current stars and maybe grab a FA or 2 they otherwise would be out on.
I think it helps that the Padres have no money to spend.
Padres already met with Yamamoto on Thanksgiving and are in talks with Soto about an extension. Ben Higgins did a great interview with Peter Seidler’s brother Tom earlier tonight and he said they will continue to fund the Padres as his brother did. A bit early to be saying they have no money to spend.
Still too early to confirm but I was always right there with you. Last years market also had 2 teams that were spending serious dollars. The padres were stretching deals out forever to lower AAV & then you had the Mets burning cash without regard.
Without that going on now—I think you’re gonna see a normalization. We’re too early to say for sure and Ohtani will def be an outlier, but we’re on the Same page.
If bellinger gets MLBTR’s projection—I’ll have to eat all my words. There’s no way in hell he’s getting a 12 year deal.
Only one major free agent has been signed and he got a deal one year longer than anyone expected and $2.5 million less AAV than expected.
Might be worth waiting just a tad so that your molars are not full of shoe leather.
Meh. Padres would have signed Gray to a 6 year 120 million dollar deal to save 5 million on the luxury tax. Then all the fans would have clamored that 20 million would be nothing in 2029, payrolls will be 1 trillion dollars.
Waiting and making a comment after the information is out there requires no thinking, anticipation, or balls.
Maybe I end up right and maybe I end up wrong, but what’s the point if I don’t say anything until after the signings are done?
Wait and be thought a fool or speak and remove all doubt.
BIL
Will you feel like an asshat if you’re wrong and your mega deals aren’t the lotto ticket this year? I’ll remind you.
You are being one now. Should I follow your example?
Other teams better stop pussyfooting around or St. Louis is just going to sign every free agent starting pitcher.
Great signing Krall.. NOT!
Mozo now has his 3 pitchers. The front office is now closed until spring. Enjoy!
Great signing. Very fair deal. Smart to up the AAV to keep the years down, probably has a 4th year option that could take it to $100M.
But it’s exactly in line with his market value and his age.
Congrats to the Cardinals on an excellent signing. Gray should do pretty well in St. Louis and I’ll enjoy watching how much they improve over last season. Plus, this takes a good pitcher away from the Twins. Anything that helps during the postseason…
Remember how abysmal he was in NY?
I do, but not every pitcher is built for New York. He’s thrived the last couple of seasons
Seems like aside from CC and Cole, no pitcher has worked out long term for NYY in the last decade
And Tanaka
So was randy Johnson
Just here to see the Cardinals “fans” hate on this signing.
I’m in the minority here, but I see it as a bit of an overpay (not in years, but dollars). Nothing outrageous because he’s a good SP, but when you get to $25M AAV, even short-term, you’re looking for a clear number 2, which he’s not. He struggles to give you length in games, and his 184 IP last year were his most since 2015. Career 3.67 xFIP, 3.89 SIERA, 1.20 WHIP… good SP when healthy, but hasn’t been a TOR guy for years. A strong number 3 in my opinion, and if that’s worth $75M and $25M at 34 years old, then I think he made out a bit off a good walk year. He’ll probably put do well in St. Louis, seems to fit their culture.
They probably overpaid in dollars to keep him at three years. I’m sure they could have got him for 4/80 or something like that but value the shorter deal more.
That seems to be about the new norm for solid #2/#3 SP types – $1MM/start; ~160 IP. I think Gray could’ve received a fourth year for a slightly lower AAV while he’s always talked about not going for the most money.
Yep, i think I’m still having trouble adjusting to current sp salary levels
Hah! Just wait until you see middle relievers start coming off the board.
Did you forget he was the runner up for Cy Young behind a Gerrit Cole
No, he had a very good year. I don’t think he deserved to finish that high, but still a very good year. Doesn’t make him any more than what he’s been the last three years overall, and guarantee last year is the best he’ll be for the rest of his career considering his age (and he overperformed vs his peripherals, which usually evens back out).
From 2019 – 2023 he has a 3.22 ERA with almost 750 K’s in just over 650 IP with a WHIP of just over 1.100
Lol.
Just finished 2nd in the AL Cy Young voting and he’s a “strong #3”
So he was the 2nd best SP in the AL last year but no better than the 61st best SP in MLB for 2024?
Yeah, I read that comment and realized how idiotic is was too
He wasn’t even the best pitcher on his own team, pablo lopez was. Gray was only better in ERA and nothing else. So that runner up CY vote carries little weight.
No evaluator cares about 4-5 years ago, last three years is what they look at – 3.30 era, 1.16 whip, 3.65 xFIP, 3.86 SIERA, 3.23 k/bb, 146 IP a year. Thats a strong three or a weak two. If that’s your number 2, you would need a very strong offense to win a championship. It showed in the postseason – one strong start but only 5 innings, one awful start.
With all 3 signings having pitched 170+ innings this year I have a feeling that 2 of the 3 will end up missing significant time with injuries in 2024.
The Twins got a lot of value with Sonny Gray plus they get a compensation pick.
Good luck, Sonny!
Don’t like the Cardinals at all, but this seems like a very nice signing.
Plus, Gray is at 98 career wins, so he’ll likely pick up No. 100 early in 2024. I know wins aren’t valued like they used to be, but it’s still a nice achievement.
The Cardinals are in a weird spot where they could be dreadful or back to playoff contenders next year. Their offseason so far screams desperation, but it could easily work out with a couple of bounce backs from guys who didn’t provide much last year. Gray is a nice addition though. They should be able to guarentee a few more wins this year due to him.
Improving your team’s weakest area screams desperation? I don’t think you understand the meaning of this word.
Cardinals injecting some youth into their rotation.
80M going to a rotation where everyone will be 34 or older by June 1.
Not a bad contract for the Cards, about what I expected for him
Not surprised the Twins weren’t going to do that, with the payroll being reduced and their aversion to big free agent SP contracts (anything over 15M per). He was going to be tough to replace even if he did re-sign with the Twins because I don’t think he would have suppressed as many HRs as he did in 2023. He pitched almost the same in 2022, but allowed more homers then. The 2022 version or worse is what I expect going forward
The Gray trade worked out amazingly for the Twins. The results were way better than I expected. I wanted them to trade for someone younger and I like(d) Petty, but he was worth Petty and so much more. Now they get a pick back that’s close to the “Petty” pick range. Slam dunk trade.
Well crap. Now I’m getting worried that Reynaldo Lopez is the only “starter” acquisition that the braves make. However, I am happy for Cardinals fans because of the people making fun of the Gibson and Lynn signings.
My goodness, we haven’t even gotten to the Winter Meetings. Some top names are just now being posted with interviews with Yamamoto taking place today, reportedly. There’s a lot left. Remember, AA cleared 10 roster spots that he still needs to mostly fill.
Yeah I know, I wouldn’t at all be surprised if the braves do make a move for cease or giolito or something. A small Part of my brain is thinking about what Kyle Wright and the Debbie Downers at Tomahawk Talk are saying though. To be clear I do think they will make a move. I considered Nola and Gray to be the two best options available though. I don’t trust Blake Snell. I don’t really see the braves as a realistic destination for Yamamoto unfortunately though. I don’t think the braves have ever signed anyone out of the NPB (correct me if I’m wrong though!) But yes. You are right sir.
the Braves will get a valuable starter and probably some decent bullpen pieces to boot. They’re in a good position ahead of Winter meetings
I feel like a starter and maybe a 4th outfield or shortstop option would be nice. (Depending
on if Vaughn Grisson is still around come march) Get those done, maybe add some depth pieces. It would be nice too if they could maybe grab some waiver wire guys that have minor league options available that they can stash on the 40 man roster. Possibly even take a chance on a guy like Adam Cimber for 1 or 2 million and hope he bounces back and call it an off-season!
@n2 you gotta be pretty stoked right? Gray is a fantastic starter and there is a chance Lynn has better fortunes this year. His underlying numbers aren’t too bad!
I am pretty stoked, I wasn’t expecting Gray. I bet ATL can find a good trade partner for a starter or reliever if they dangled Grissom or others at the meetings.
Yeah, I think that’ll be the route they go. Unfortunately if they do that it will kill an already weak farm system and I don’t think they will be able to keep Hurston Waldrop who I think will be a stud.
Who is the next FORMER TWIN the Cards go after? Johan Santana??
CC Sabathia, probably
Going with Emilio Pagan
This is the Mike Leake signing all over again.
except I don’t think Leake was an all-star or CY runner-up the previous season. it was also a longer term. Leake didn’t have the lengthy successful record either. so, just like the Leake signing
Mike leake never finished 2nd in Cy young voting!
Matz was the Mike Leake signing all over again.
One more to go. Who should it be?
Yamamoto, this eager fan says.
No chance of Yamamoto. No real chance of any free agent SP signing. There is a chance they make a trade though. I think they’d love to have 6 SPs heading into the year. They just can’t afford to sign another FA starter. I could see them dropping up to $5mil on a bullpen arm though. That’s about the max amount of cash they have left to spend, and quite frankly, they’d only do that if the right RP arm were available.
The Cardinals now have four starting pitchers 34 years of age or older.. The over/under to all four staying healthy to Memorial Day is two..
So the Cardinals are now set for the season. Gray, Matz, Lynn, Gibson, Mikolas. Is that enough to get them out of last place?
Out of last place, sure. I’d certainly take the current roster over what the Pirates have right now. But it’s still a below average rotation, and they still need a lot of help in the bullpen. They may be able to compete if they do make enough good bullpen additions.
It’s definitely an easier division. Pirates will stink. Reds will likely regress, as they got max efforts out of every rookie they brought up except de la Cruz. Most of the rest of them will take the usual step back, especially since they weren’t your typical 23 and under rookies. Brewers will take a step back as well. Cubs are the wild card. I think they’re feeling the market out to gage whether to dive in or not.
I couldn’t disagree with your take more. The reds will be better next year. They missed Greene for most of the season. The Pirates will be much better next year as well. They’ll have O’Niell Cruz back, there is a lot to like about their youngsters. The Brewers won’t have Woodruff but they still have Burnes and Peralta. This will be their last year before they go back to last place finishes, maybe they add some offense and go for it. The Cubs lose Beinger and Stroman, but they’ll make moves. They didn’t poach Counsel to get worse. With the 3 SP the Cards are still pretty much the same team as last year and the offense will be worse. So yeah, a last place finish is extremely likely as well.
We’ll agree to disagree, which is fine. Greene pitched 22 games for the Reds (and very mediocrely, I might add), so they weren’t missing him most of the season. Oneil Cruz is more hype than reality at this point. He struggled mightily after his hot start when he got called up two years ago. Outside of Cruz and Hayes, their youngsters aren’t overly exciting, and neither of them have yet to live up to the offensive hype. Both the Reds and Pirates have subpar pitching staffs. The Cards, Reds, and Pirates were all sub .500 teams in the second half, and all were outscored on the season. Brewers will still be good. I just said I thought they’d take a step back. That seems reasonable when they won’t have Woodruff at all (I know they only had him for a third of the season last year), they lost their manager, and they seem to be entertaining trades on some other good players. I’d still favor them but think they won’t be quite as strong. The Cubs, as I said, are the wild card. They’ve lost a bunch but could add a bunch. TBD. Not sure anything in my statement was that controversial, but like I said, it’s all opinion and prognostication, so agreeing to disagree is fine when there’s no proof on either side.
3/75 is fair enough if results are close to this season’s.
Whats going on in Minny? Seems those guys cant get out fast enough. Thought they would reinforce that roster, guess not.
Financial issues in Minnesota. They need to cut around 20-30M in payroll and Kepler and Polanco look to be moved.
Not a Cardinals fan, but I am impressed with their offseason so far.
Fair enough. Not having to go 4 years is nice.
This is trouble. You’re paying for his outlier season and hoping he is the same guy at age 37! Red flags all over the place with this one!
The contract only goes to age 36, not 37, and if they were truly only paying for this past season, it would be at least $30M per year.
He probably will be significantly overpaid by Year 3, but hopefully by then the Cardinals will have developed or traded for a couple of good, younger pitchers to go with him in the rotation.
Braves should have made this deal
It’s still a below average rotation, but in combination with the excellent offense, they can at least contend for a playoff spot
…
IF they also spend the rest of the offseason overhauling the bullpen. As it stands, they have Helsley, Gallegos, Romero, Naughton, and very little else, and even Gallegos is coming off a career worst mediocre season.
I would potentially add Matz and/or Thompson to that list. Packy was outrighted to Memphis, so I wouldn’t give him a spot yet. Pallante and King will probably be there again. I don’t see more than maybe 1 reliever added to the mix unless there’s a trade coming. There are wild cards like Rodriguez, Zuniga and Naile as well. I think they should outright Naile while they’re at it.
Yes, whoever doesn’t win a rotation spot between Matz and Thompson can also be added to the list of decent relievers.
Those other guys all sucked at the Major League level this past season, especially Naile who I agree should be outrighted. I’d still trust Naughton over any of them.
Anyway, that still only gives them 4 or 5 decent relievers even before injuries hit. They NEED to make AT LEAST 2 decent or better additions, or the bullpen will just fall apart again, and they don’t even have Hicks this time.
I agree that at least 2 decent relievers are needed for a solid bullpen. Let’s hope they make additional moves during the Winter meetings
Excellent offense?
19th in Runs
14th in Hits
17th in RBIs
15th in Avg.
14th in Slg
13th in OPS
Okay. Sure
Germans, Pearl Harbor, leave him alone. He’s on a roll.
Those numbers were dragged down when all their good hitters except Goldschmidt, Walker, and Nootbaar were injured for most or all of September.
Meanwhie there should be further development among the young players, especially Walker
The Cards are dealin’.
I’m so happy the mariners don’t have to make a trade and settle for Gorman Donovan or Nootbaar now that Cardinals rotation is set.. now the mariners can focus on signing bounce back players like Aaron hicks
this made me laugh out loud. you forgot Roby and Hence, though.
Lol. Mariners fans are a bit silly. Logan Gilbert = Jesus.
I think the Cards will get another SP,(if signing I would say Montgomery, if trading Cease) 2 RP, by trade or bring back Hicks. I will also get another impact bat.
Not bloody likely with these owners. They said they would roughly equal last year’s payroll, and they’ve already done that. They’re pretty much done. They may look for one RP signing for $5mil or less, but that would be about it.
25/yr? Damn. Yamamoto and Montgomery have to be drooling at this point.
2nd in Cy Young voting in 2023.
What the heck did you think he was going to sign for???
This signing makes me happy and now I have my first correct prediction too!
Good pick good for you. I thought it would be Montgomery or Gray but probably would have picked Montgomery if I was participating.
Cardinals will be good till july
Baseball is played between the ages of 22-32- Cards way over that number- no chance
No way. More like 23-37. There are a few exceptions on the young and old end. There are too many to list that still play great (not just good) ball after 32!
If that was genuinely true, league minimums/rookie deals would be exponentially larger, early extensions would be exponentially larger, etc. to account for the money the league brings in on the backs of these players.
I swear, the number of ‘fans’ in these comment sections who think nobody should be paid anything and then discarded by the time they’re 32 is getting larger by the year.
At some point y’all will be saying “nobody is young enough to play this game and anybody being paid anything is overpaid. They should be between the ages of 22 and 27 and they should be making enough money per game to cover bus fare and three 7-11 taquitos per day but only during the work week and only in-season and the rest of the year they should be getting shamed with a wagging finger for aging like a normal human while they apologize and beg for change on the streets and hand over that change to the billionaire owners of the teams and say ‘thank you for the privilege of repaying you for the privilege of playing this game while losing money doing so, in order to line your pockets further.”
Cards need to find a taker for Matz now and sign Frankie Montas.
“His strikeout rate was a top 25 figure among qualified starters”. There were only 44 qualified starters this year meaning he was in the bottom half! Why frame it as a positive when it’s clearly a negative? Come on guys be better
This is such a bizarre take. He’s one of 25 starters in the entire majors that was able to have a high strikeout rate while pitching a lot of innings. Why in the world would the fact that only 44 starters were able to hit the required innings mark be a bad thing? This makes him even MORE valuable because starters just aren’t eating innings anymore.
Because the point being made was about his K rate not his ability to eat innings…. Can you read? How is being ranked 25 out of 44 a good thing? It’s literally worse than average? I dont think you understand basic math…. He didn’t have an high K rate….. no idea why you’re saying he did. Also he only threw 184 innings last year which was his most since 2015…. So you’re wrong about him being an innings eater too…. Brutal comment dude
Not getting into this whole fight, but just wanted to point out that this ain’t your father’s MLB 184 innings is an “innings eater” in this day and age. Very few pitchers get left in to face an order the third time around. That means anyone averaging around 6IP per start is considered (relatively speaking) going deep in this era of analytics. It’s an entirely different game.
And yet before this year he hadnt even thrown 184 innings since 2015…
Yep. Like I said, not interested in a fight. He had some minor injuries in 2021 and 2022. 2020 was a lost year for all MLB pitchers if we’re counting innings. In 2019, he had 175 IP, which isn’t exactly a mile from 184. Odds are decent that he misses a few games here and there, but he’s never really been a major injury guy, relatively speaking again, so that wouldn’t be a major concern in a contract. He averages about 28 games started over full seasons in his career (taking out COVID year and partial rookie year). That’s not bad, considering most MLB pitchers suffer a major injury or two over a 10-year span. You can kind of see the gradual change in managerial mentality over the course of his career, as he started out as a 200+ innings guy in Oakland, but would likely be more like a 180 inning guy in a full season now. That’s not him. That’s the nature of the game. Anyway, that’s about the only point I cared to make on this one. All the best to you. Happy holidays.
Wow. That is a hefty option. I guess they met right at his AAV valuation of $23.335M a year without the buyout.
So it’s 3 years/$75M or 4 years/$100M, I guess?
$23,330,000, $23,335,000, $23,335,0000 plus $5,000,000 or plus $30,000,000.
Pretty much on target for value.
Very good deal. Might not go well in the end, as some say, but think about how many question mark deals have wound up as fair value, if not bargains and how many seemingly slam dunk deals have wound up as massive albatrosses.
I feel like people want Gray ‘s deal to fail because of age biases.
There are people in these comment sections who say “Over 30? Why would anybody give this person money or a roster spot?” but “Under 30?’ Sign ’em for infinity years and infinity dollars.” and the reality is somewhere in between.
It really does seem like as far as the comment section goes, no player ever deserves or performs to their exact salary AAV or the guaranteed years on a deal- they either under or over perform. There is no fair value.
Which is not true.
Sonny Gray got a very fair deal in both years and AAV.
Great signing. So glad it’s just 3 years with a 4th club option. He will be a valuable addition probably for all 3 years of the contract
The Cards want to win again , Life is good.
Without someone to pair with Gray we are still a .500 club
Great pickup. Next, give me Cease or Yamamoto.
Zero chance on Yamamoto. Cease would depend on whether Walt has lost his fear of trading prospects. My guess is that he hasn’t.
Gray isn’t worth $75m and giving up a pick. Better to spend that money plus Lynn’s and Gibson’s money on Yamamoto.
Yamamoto’s AAV would be much lower than the combination of those two, but I suppose if you want to spread out the posting fee as part of the AAV, then maybe. Either way, the Cards are now out of that sweepstakes, so we can put those dreams to bed.
That’s not even remotely true. If they move Matz and TON, they free up $17.5 mil with those two moves alone. That combined with Goldy’s $26 mil coming off the books next year means they could easily fit Yamamoto into the budget if they want.
Who on earth would pick up Matz’s contract? You can’t live in a dream world on this one. Even if they move Matz, they’re eating salary, guaranteed. TON is possible, but not enough to sign any SP who is a difference maker. “Easily” fitting Yamamoto into the budget is also not true. If you’ve followed them (and I’m guessing you have), you know there’s no “easily” with this ownership group and budgets. Yamamoto is out of the price range. Need to get over that one. Hoping for Matsui at the back of the bullpen is far more realistic, as he doesn’t come with a posting fee and would obviously cost far less to begin with. We have to be realistic about what can happen and what we know about how this team is run.
I would also expect Goldy to re-sign on a cheaper deal, as I don’t think they want to lose his presence and everything he brings to the table. Yes, it would be nice to slide Walker in at 1B, but I don’t think they’re cutting ties with Goldy. He’s signed for $22mil this year. I don’t think anyone would be surprised to see Goldy come back on something like a 2 yr/$35 mil deal with a mutual option for a third.
The real question: is the sky sunny or grey in St. Louis? We shall see
Wait you can sign free agents for almost exactly their estimated worth?
This’ll be an albatross of a contract by July.
So his actual first name is Sonny? “Hey Wilma, let’s name the little whippersnapper Sonny!” “Ok Jimbo.”
Did Gray get hurt signing the deal?
Good move here by Cardinals management. They needed three starters and they added three starters before the other teams enter desperation mode as names start dropping from the free-agent board. Gray, Lynn and Gibson historically are all good start 30+ games a year and pitch 180+ innings. More than ever, that’s valuable in today’s game. The analytics guys will all marvel at Tyler Glasnow’s swing-and-miss stuff, but he’ll struggle to give a team 100 innings. The three pitchers the Cards sign will take a huge load off the bullpen, which will strengthen the other starters, and they did this without much long-term financial commitment. Two of the deals are one year, and Gray is three years and showing no signs of slowing down.
Another observation. The message points in Gray’s presser seemed designed to try and counter the perception he left during his 1 1/2 with the Yankees. Everything was about how he’s now a bulldog, and highly competitive, and you’re going to see that side of him as you get to know him better, blah, blah, blah. You want to be cool? Don’t tell people you’re cool. You want to be a high-pressure pitcher? Don’t say you’re a high-pressure pitcher. Go and show it.
I like Gray. I think he picked the right market to succeed. His agent started planting stories well in advance of his free agency about how the Yankees tried to change him and that’s why he failed. B.S. All teams fiddle with their pitchers, all teams try to introduce new approaches. If it doesn’t work, then go back to what does work. In Gray’s case, when he was told to go back, it still didn’t work. No matter. I think he learned from his time on the Yankees, made him stronger and a better pitcher, and the environment with the Cards will be much less of a pressure cooker.
Good signing by the Cardinals.
I like it but I don’t like the combo of Lynn, Gibson, and Gray as a fix. Lynn needs a turn around. Let’s not forget Matz was moved to the bullpen for a good while penciling him in the the rotation is far from a guarantee. They made things difficult signing Lynn and Gibson. Do they sign a sixth starter? Are we out on Yamamoto or other top end rotation arms now? Inning eaters are nice back end starters but I think we could only afford to sign one and two upper rotation arms that possibility might have passed. As usual we will pin our hopes of rebound years from one of those starters. We need Hicks back plus others to pick up the slack. I hope one is a swing man but 12 million seems like a lot for a swing man. I like Gray he’s just not enough
Pretty much agree with all. And from Mozeliak’s mouth: “I don’t think we’re looking to add starting pitching now”. We’re done. This is our rotation. We’ll add a bullpen arm or two though. If they get Matsui and his performance translates, it’s still a solid offseason. I think he’d be their preference, but they have obvious interest in Hicks as well.
Seems like a lot to pay for Sonny, but the Cards need pitching.
If you don’t get that guy you get this guy. Hello board.
No doubt Gray had a fantastic 2023, but this feels like an overpay. As a Twins fan I appreciated his work ethic, preparation, and time with the club, but at his age I do not think it will hold up as well with the Cardinals. I think Gibson and Lynn are solid but not spectacular adds as well. I don’t see this stable of arms delivering in the playoffs though and they need a Glasnow to truly have a shot. The lineup of the Braves or Dodgers would feast on a rotation like this.
You should probably say “healthy Glasnow” as he is the current postor boy for the term injury prone
So its actually a 3 year $70 million deal with a 4th season option at $30 million and $5 million buyout for a total of $75 million guaranteed.
Worst rotation in baseball! Looking forward to another 100 loss season in the cesspool. It’s hilarious to read deadbird fans think Yamamoto is going to go there based on this signing and Lynn and Gibson. He want to play for a winner, not be a part of this declining franchise. Plus they are way too cheap to pay what his salary is likely to be.
The Cardinals haven’t lost 100 games in over 100 years, so not sure who you’re talking about with the “another 100 loss season” comment. Your team? I’m guessing their history is significantly more pathetic.
As a Cubs fan, I’m envious. I don’t understand why the Cubs weren’t even in on this guy. Great signing, and the Cafds did exactly what they said they were going to do. How often does that happen in professional sports?
Well , now that the Cards have actually signed a real starter, maybe it’s time to start trying to trade for another one, they now have Lynn and Gibson to use in a trade. I’d rather see Gibson stay if they choose to trade one of them, just a thought, by trading one or both of them it frees up payroll and I’m sure there are teams that would love to have one of them..
Teams can’t turn around and immediately trade free agents they signed a couple days prior. There’s some time limit. Maybe midsummer? Not to mention, meaning I now will, good luck signing future free agents if they know they’ll be traded elsewhere the next week.
You are correct , teams can not trade them till Mid June .
Today it’s mostly Sonny, tomorrow will be Gray.
Manoah for Walker and Matz? Go sign Montgomery or a Japanese import? I can’t get a good gauge on Walkers value, but I do know the Cards would love a mulligan on the Matz contract. Would appreciate a Cards fan take. Cheers
No chance Walker gets dealt, especially for Manoah after all the question marks of last season. They plan on him being a Cardinal for life. They just need to find a corner IF spot or DH spot for him, because his OF defense is horrendous. Very doubtful they sign any more SPs. Mo actually said something to that effect in a recent interview. There’s a lot of click bait out there talking about how they’re still in the running for all the top SPs. There are a couple of problems with that: 1) They said they would spend roughly what they spent last year, and they are at that point already. They’re approximately $3-4 mil over last year’s payroll now. They had to backload the Gray deal just to get down to that point. That’s almost certainly why they structured the deal that way, not to add flexibility for more signings this year, as the speculators want to think; and 2) Mo said it himself – “I don’t think we’re looking to add starting pitching now”. Those two things should shut the door on the rumors of more top end SP…but they won’t. They’ll look to find a couple of deals for the bullpen and cash out for the offseason.
Thanks for the insight. Both were first rounders in 2019, 2020. I figured the value would be closer.
Sorry, I should have made it more clear that that’s Walker’s perceived value in the eyes of the Cardinals FO. Their true values may not be that far apart except for the fact that Walker should have an extra couple years of team control. Walker should be a stud hitter, but he really doesn’t have a true position on the Cards. If they don’t bring back Goldy after next year, it’ll be 1B. Anyway, the main point is, the Cards let two all-star outfielders go for minimal return (almost no return for one of them), and they’re gun shy about trading any prospects now. That’s the main reason something like that wouldn’t happen.
What about the appeal of shedding the Matz contract? Walker should only have one more year of control than Manoah (and his service time needs to be adjusted for the crap last season?) I guess it’s not an unfathomable trade, it just doesn’t seem likely is a better way to see it?
Also I see him as a contingency plan for 1B, so there’s that. I just don’t see a former Cy Young finalist going for cheap, if at all, and looked at other bright prospects that are either redundant or had an off/poor season to line up a trade.
Completely agree with you on that. The talk of Carlson for Manoah were nonsense. Manoah’s value is significantly higher than that. Yes, Cards would love to shed Matz’s contract, but not at the cost of a true prospect/young MLB star. They don’t roll that way anymore. So your logic is absolutely sound, but the Cards just wouldn’t do it.
Holy crap, does Nick Deeds know English? “Strong as Gray’s platform season in 2023 was” isn’t proper grammar. It needs to be “AS strong as Gray’s platform season in 2023 was.”
Then there’s “while there’s still plenty of front-of-the-rotation caliber arms available…” While there is still plenty of arms available? Seriously? He did this on an another article yesterday too, for crying out loud. Hire an editor for this hack or fire him.
You should see the horrendous writing on other sports info pages. MLBTR is a blessing.
Let’s see it!