Pirates Acquire LaRoche For Gonzalez

wow... nice signing for the Pirates. Not that the Braves are getting screwed, but the Pirates needed another bat.

wow, mike gonzalez's profile says the pirates originally got him and freddy sanchez from the red sox for jeff suppan, brandon lyon, and a no name prospect. how stupid does that make the sox look right now?

What should we expect from Thorman this year? I have heard some say he will be able to step right in and put up similar number to laroche. Others have said that he isnt quite ready to play everyday. Are Prado and Johnson legit replacements for Giles? Oh and whos gona lead off for the bravos?

Boomshwa, that's not an actual trade.

The Red Sox got Gonzalez from Pitt in a deal where they sent Lyon. Lyon's physical came back that he had an injury, and so the Sox offered to rescind/amdend the trade giving back Gonzalez and taking back Lyon

Good deal for the Braves... They have one of the nastiest bullpens in the league now.... Soriano in the 7th, Gonzalez in the 8th and Wickman in the 9th.... As a Phils fan, Im not looking forward to that......

o my bad nvm

Thank God this deal is finally done so I don't have to hear the freakin' rumors anymore!!!

Wow, I wonder how much of this may be a cost-cutting move for the Braves. The arbitration numbers were initiated yesterday and suddenly LaRoche gets traded today? Seems too coincidental to me... I bet the other player is a minor leaguer, even though Scheurholz insisted on 2 major-league ready players from Pitt. The demands of Laroche's salary may have forced Scheurholz to get less in return than he wanted... Damn cheap ass Time Warner, wheres Ted Turner when you need him?

LOL, all the sudden the braves pen is nasty.Sure, you have 7/8/9 guys, what about everyone else? I like my pen, deeper and better, but I guess we will have to wait and see. What if Soriano is never the same after the line shot off his dome. Wickman is no spring chicken either. Gonzo has had an injury history. Only time will tell.

"Sure, you have 7/8/9 guys, what about everyone else?"

Yates, McBride, Paronto, Boyer, Villareal, Cormier - I'd say that's plenty of backup for the best 7-8-9 trio in baseball...

I think id still take Neshek, Nathan, Rincon and Crain or Rodney, Zumaya and Jones but the Braves are right up there... The Mets aren't in the conversation... They can't compare.....

Lets not forget about Calero, Duscherer and Street either...... They are pretty nasty in Oakland.....

Proctor-Farnsworth-Rivera will blow less leads after the 6th inning then Soriano-Gonzalez-Wickman

uh guys...dont forget about boston, kc, stl, tb, who else am i forgetting?

HAHAHAHA LMAO

How about as far as the entire pen goes? I'm not claiming the Yankees are the best (yet), but they're looking good:

Rivera, Proctor, Farnsworth, Vizcaino, Britton, Myers

And don't underestimate the advantage Rivera (and other top closers) have over their counterparts. Similarly, I still think the Braves' 1-3 are better than the Mets', but the advantage Wagner has over Wickman makes that closer than it seems.

Yankees bullpen, HA!... Yeah, Rivera makes the rest of the pen soooo much better, please. More like the 12 runs the Yankees score every game makes the bullpen better...

"Straight up Id actually give the edge to the Pirates because a position player is always more valuable than a relief pitcher... Especially one who hit 32 homers last year...."

I would agree, but HR hitters are a strength of the Braves. Chipper, Andruw, Francoeur, and McCann are all capable of hitting 30+ Homers... So I think Pittsburgh got the better end of the deal by the slimmest of margins (unless Gonzo blows out his elbow or something...)

Lillibridge? So this guy is supposed to be pretty good then? Who are the Braves giving up?

Dunno...that's all I know so far.

Brent Lillibridge looks filthy, but I have to wait and see who the second player leaving ATL for Pitt is before passing judgement on this trade.

One thing's for sure, our 'pen is much better now than it was at this point last year and it's not even close. It has to be one of the top 3 in the NL and top 10 in all of baseball; last year we were damn near the bottom of any positive bullpen list.

Romak had miserable a 2003 and 2004, then was awesome in 2005 before coming back down somewhat in 2006. All that, however, happened before the kid could legally by a beer, so who knows. He seems to have found his nitch in the OF and/or simply developed somewhat and looks to be a decent prospect. He's no Lillibridge, but he's not as far off as I would have liked.

Rivera isn't gonna pitch three innings.... He may be the best closer ever.... he is also the most OVER RATED pitcher on the face of the planet....

Burgos sucks, just an example of how 95+ doesn't mean shit in baseball. It helps but doesnt carry you. Francouer will feast of that crap that burgos throws. Face it man, Gonzalez is more dominant than any of them, so is Soriano for that matter, and Wickman doesnt throw any incredible pitches, but he shuts people down

Ooooo looks like was385 beat me to it about Burgos. A Mota-Heilman-Wagner 7-8-9 is good, damn good actually. There's just some others that are flat out better. Tigs, Padres, and yes the Braves now with Gonzalez come to mind.

"Rivera isn't gonna pitch three innings.... He may be the best closer ever.... he is also the most OVER RATED pitcher on the face of the planet...."

From someone who roots for an AL East team, has actually watched post season baseball, and isn't a homer, you are completely wrong.

Gonzalez is not that great. His WHIP the last two years was atrocious for a late-innings reliever. He just has a knack for getting out of trouble. It'll catch up to him eventually. Wickman is not a great closer either. One of the worst in the league IMO. He has injury woes as well. Soriano is usually injured as well and has lost a lot of velocity on his fastball according to reports coming out of WInter League. Other than that, yea, the Braves pen is awesome.

every year he is doubted. Wickman will be great once again and Gonzalez is unhittable. Why when talking about a Braves player does everyone suck? You must be a mets fan bull

Lets let Clay Meredith repeat last year first, then try calling them the best 7-8-9...

I'd put Speier/Shields/K-Rod ahead of the Padres 3 and I'm an A's fan. I wouldn't put Calero/Duchscherer/Street ahead of the Padres 3 but I wouldn't put them behind it either...

I'm inclined to think the Mets and Braves bullpens will be neck and neck next year.

i think braves pen is top 5 or so in the NL and got a lot better with gonzalez. they wanted to sure up the pen and they did just that with their moves.

i am a yankee fan and there are SOME 7-8-9 i would take over ours but just a few like - DET and OAK probably

From a Mets Fan:

I love this deal.

Laroche is a below avg 1B, but still a solid bat.

I forget the kid's name right now, but I think it was Thorman that they have coming up to replace LAroche.

I dont think Thorman is ready, nor do I think he's very good.

Franceour sucks.

Its funny how Soriano gets discounted to "he sucks" due to only drawing 60 or so walks, but Franceour is great even tho his walk totals are atrocious. I wonder why that's so....

Franceour is garbage.

He occassionally gets hot, but for the most part, he sucks.

The Braves have a nice pen, but thy always have a nice pen.

In the past, you could get good arms on the cheap and allow Mazzone to work with them.

Now a good arm in the pen costs you ur starting 1B.

I like it.

McCann is a solid hitter, but no lock to keep up his production. Who cares...he's not going to drive the braves.

Franceour is crap.

Chipper is great, but his body is falling apart. No way he plays a full season.

Andruw is a beast, but Beltran gives us that and more.

Mets pen vs Braves pen?

If Dirty Sanchez is Dirty Sanchez again, our pen will CRUSH that of the Braves. If he's half the man he was last year before injury, then our pen is still at least as good.

I'll put the Mets pen up against anyone.

Lets go to war u bitches.

and i dont need cubs fan yelling on me now.

cardinals 2006 world champions

"I'll put the Mets pen up against anyone.
Lets go to war u bitches."

That's hilarious...did you just call arguing on this website a "war"?

samael88,

No matter what people say, real baseball fans here, even if they disagree, can easily see that I know my shit.

EVEN if they disagree with me, the informed fans here can at least see that I am no Mets homer.

Stormstarter,

I am not calling this website a war u moron.

I am calling the baseball season a war.

That is my way of saying I feel good about my team to go into the season right now and feel confident.

I am saying I love my bullpen and feel strongly that my team will compete.

Let me guess, you're a brain surgeon right?

I'm a moron because you didn't make yourself clear?

Yes, to answer your question, I am indeed a brain surgeon.

Finally, calling the baseball season a war is just as funny as calling this website a war.

"Wickman racks up saves, and that's it. He's not a good pitcher."

Have you ever looked at his stats. Over the past two seasons he has an ERA hovering around 2.5 and has converted 90% of his save opps. He doesnt have a nasty slider like Wagner or a 100 mph FB like Zumaya, but he pounds the K zone and gets a fair number of Ks and easy outs. Everyone bashes him, but when he comes in, we can turn off the TV. Also, Heilman doesnt come close to Soriano or Wickman. He is as streaky a pitcher as I have ever seen. Sanchez doesnt come close to Soriano either. Soriano has a 1.09 WHIP, over a K per inning, and around 7 H per 9 in the tougher league. Sanchez and Heilman don't come CLOSE to that.

Adam LaRoche has been a platoon player most of his career. Most teams still see him that way. He didn't start regularly until midway through the season so not many Braves fans were that accustomed to seeing him everyday.

He's good and his defense will be missed, but Thorman will be an adequate replacement. Certainly can't expect the same production, but he's no easy out.

The Braves have one of the best lineups in baseball. Laugh all you want, they scored tons of runs. They can afford to lose the production when other players (Francoeur, McCann, Jones, and Jones) all have 30 home run potential. LaRoche was relegated to 6-7 most of the year anyways, so it's not like we lost a bat in the middle of the lineup.

The Braves have one of the best bullpens in the league now. What was once our greatest weakness, is now possible our greatest strength. I'm not going to get too excited about Gonzo though, he's probably going to be spun off for more players.

All this conversation needs is a die hard Phillies fan ..... hahaha...

I will say that the Phillies have the 4th best bullpen in the division as it stands right now.... Only the Marlins have worse... That's pretty bad...

Im the one that has to worry about a bullpen... the Phils have Ryan Madsen or Geoff Geary as a setup man.... You wanna talk about worried !?!

True true true...

One name

Cliff Politte

Sub 2 ERA lights out during the world series run

Next season he was released.......

Okay, before the Braves fans start getting crazy with this "best bullpen in baseball" crap, or even just in the NL East- one, shouldn't we wait, oh, I don't know, maybe a day or two to make sure the Braves aren't flipping Gonzalez somewhere else? And two- while the Braves bullpen sure is better than it was, that's not saying much. Who wrote that Gonzalez is "unhittable"? The guy pitched to a 1.352 WHIP last year, that ain't unhittable. In fact, he's only been below a 1.3 once in his career, and that was three years ago. I love Soriano as much as the next guy and think the Braves stole him in that deal, by why the assumption that he'll return from injury to the exact same form as before, while D Sanchez is now suspect because he finished last year hurt? And as for the all important closer position- look, you want to argue that Wagner is overpaid and over rated, fine. But he's still better than Wickman by any measure, and it isn't close.

And Wickman's ERA was 1.04 for the Braves in 28 games and in the process he saved 18 of 19. That is solid

i completly agree, the braves can spin gonzo in a trade with like the yankees for cabrera and proctor, of course we would have to give up something else to even out the deal, or maybe in a three way to get a left fielder who can lead off, or maybe to boston for someone, there are tons of possibilites in which we could feel one or more needs with gonzo and still ahve a good bullpen

"Why does everyone think Melky Cabrera is good? Career .739 OPS? Pass."

*Career* .739? He's barely played one season. He's good defensively, has speed, cannon arm, can hit for average and many scouts think he'll develop even more power. If you count, that's five tools.

A lot of people think he'll develop into an all-star. Don't forget he's young, cheap, and under control for the next 5 years. That plus Proctor, a reliable bullpen arm, would be a hell of a trade for the Bravos.

The worst Melky develops into is a fourth outfielder. Which even then, wouldn't be a total bust for anyone who has him.

The Pirates got jobbed. Adam LaRoche's 2006 is only a little less convincing than Jacque Jones's. My prediction on LaRoche - .830 OPS next season. Talk to me this time next year. The Braves did the smart thing - sell while the stock was high.

As far as Proctor going to Atlanta, I might bust a nut, him and his flat fastball would get abused.

Wickman, while not the best closer in baseball, is still one of the elite ones. The "best" conversation starts and ends with Rivera, Rodriguez, and Nathan. Here's an old post of mine arguing that Bob Wickman is actually a very good closer, and it compares him to all the best in baseball - you might be interested about who may or may not be overrated ...

=================================================

You know what drives me nuts? The fact that if you're not Bobby Jenks, Joel Zumaya, or Billy Wagner closing out games, people like ths say "oh, he's hitable, and he won't be very good."

I would think that before someone would go and say something dumb like Bob Wickman isn't an elite closer, he would at least go do his homework. Look at Bob Wickman's career from 1997 (when he first started to get save opportunities. I will only include years in which he exceeded 40 IP, as anything less is too small of a sample size for the stats to bear much meaning. He missed all of 2003, and pitched partly in 2002 and 2004, so I will combine those 2 years as if it were just one season):

Year_____SV_____SVO_____SV%_____ERA_____IP
1997_____01______XX______XX_______2.73_____95.2
1998_____25______XX______XX_______3.72_____82.1
1999_____37______45______82.2%_____3.39_____74.1
2000_____30______37______81.1%_____3.10_____72.2
2001_____32______35______91.4%_____2.39_____67.2
'02 & '04__33______36______91.7%_____4.36_____64.0
2005_____45______50______90.0%_____2.47_____62.0
2006_____33______37______89.2%_____2.67_____54.0

Sure, Bob Wickman doesn't throw 97 MPH. He does however, throw 91 - 93 mph, with a very godd 2 seamer, a very sharp breaking low to mid 80's slider, and a decent changeup. And he has excellent command over all of his pitches, better than most pitchers. Rarely does Wickman aim for the outside corner, and end up laying a pitch down the pipe. If you've got command, you don't need 97+ mph to be great.

The most important stat here for a closer is the Save %. So over the last 4 full seasons, Bob Wickman has been a guy who closes out 90% of his games. Before that, when he was still relatively new at closing, he was still closing out over 80% of his games, which is still very good. How did some of the "elite" closers fare in 2006?

Name________________SV_____SVO_____SV%
06: Joe Nathan_________36_____38_______94.7%
06: K-Rod_____________47_____51_______92.2%
06: Mariano Rivera______34_____37_______91.9%
06: Bobby Jenks________41_____45_______91.1%
06: Trevor Hoffman_____46_____51_______90.2%
06: B.J. Ryan__________38_____42_______90.5%
06: Billy Wagner________40_____45_______90.0%
********************Bob Wickman***************************
06: Tom Gordon________34_____39_______87.2%
06: Chris Ray__________33_____38_______86.8%
06: Todd Jones________37_____43_______86.0%
06: Joe Borowski_______37_____43_______86.0%
06: Jon Papelbon_______35_____41_______85.4%
06: Brad Lidge_________32_____38_______84.2%
06: J.J. Putz___________36_____43_______83.7%
06: Huston Street_______37_____48_______77.1%

So, a Bob Wickman who has over the last 4 full seasons of closing, put up a SV% at 90% (give or take 1%), puts him right in the arms of the most elite closers in the game. If you were to look at Bob Wickman's stats only after he came to Atlanta, he was arguably the most effective closer in the game, saving 94.7% of his efforts (the same ratio as leader Joe Nathan), and posting a ridiculous 1.04 ERA, with 25 strikeouts in 26 innings.

For anyone to say our closer situation isn't flat out RESOLVED, is pure idiocy. Sports writers get a hard-on for guys who can throw the ball 100 mph, and think that's the only acceptable way to close out a game. I love the fact that we have a big fat hillbilly with decent stuff but exceptional command who goes out and gets the job done as well as anyone, and does it with 6 lbs of tobacco wadded into the side of his cheek because he just doesn't give a f***. Bob Wickman is the man, and for any writer to say the Braves still have bullpen trouble, simply means they were having a slow day of news to report, decided to pick on a team, and picked out the Braves bullpen without actually doing research and realizing our bullpen is pretty F'ing good, with not a single player posting an ERA over 4.00 in 2006.
___________ERA____WHIP___K/9
Wickman____2.67___1.22___7.00
Gonzalez___2.17___1.35___10.67
Soriano____2.25___1.08___9.75
Paronto____3.18___1.27___6.51
Villarreal___3.61___1.30___5.36
McBride____3.65___1.50___7.31
Yates______3.96___1.46___8.28

That is an awesome bullpen. You Mets fans want to talk about overall bullpen depth - you really shouldn't be, because you know you can't compete with that. Do you even have your bullpen decided yet? Or do you have Wagner, Heilman, Sanchez, a suspended Mota, the guy from Kansas City, and then not really anything else going for you? That's what I thought. Anyone with any common sense can tell our bullpen is going to be a strength in 2007. End of debate.

If you look at Bob Wickman's place on the list, you'll see something interesting:

Everyone below him would be considered more of a second-tier closer. Everyone above him, most people would consider to be elite. Then there's Wickman. Where does he fit? By his save % over the last few years, you'd have to say he fits more in line with the "elite" closers above him. However, by his "reputation" or "name-value," most people who don't look at his accomplishments very hard would consider him to be one of the second-tier closers, along the likes of a Tom Gordon or Todd Jones.

JUST CONSIDER THIS; OVER HIS LAST 4 COMPLETE SEASONS (COMBINING 2002 AND 2004 INTO ONE YEAR SINCE THEY WERE BOTH INJURY PLAGUED "HALF-SEASONS" FOR BOB WICKMAN), WICKMAN REGISTERED EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF SAVES IN EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF CHANCES AS DID BILLY WAGNER, WHO EVERYONE JUST ASSUMES IS BETTER THAN WICKMAN:

Bob Wickman