Gammons: Yanks Inquired On Santana

"Wang or Cano plus another premium prospect seems a reasonable bounty."

There is a tad bit of a difference in those two players.

I cant imagine this deal gets done without Phillip Hughes heading to MSP...

I disagree that Wang is a serviceable ace. I would say that Pettite is, but certainly not Wang who cant step up when it really counts. The yanks biggest problem over the last few years isnt their offense in the postseason, its the lack of shutdown pitchers.

Melky Cabrera is a 4th outfielder god damn it, regardless of whether he plays in the Bronx or not.

I'm going to break my cardinal rule and post without spending the time to check what I'm saying. But Wang has to be hurt by the defense behind him, and Cano would'nt be nearly as good of a hitter in a different lineup.

That and pitching pitching pitching pitching Vs a poor defensive 2b.

I think it would be a steal if the Yanks got Santana for Cano and a prospect (or Melky). I'm personally not the biggest fan of Wang (I love strikeouts), but he's more valuable in today's market than Cano is. If you put Cano on a poor offensive team, I don't think he would be the RBI machine people think he is. And I'm sorry, Melky doesn't impress me at all. Yeah, he has a good arm, but I don't think he'll ever be the offensive player a lot of people claim he will be. He'll always be a solid player, but nothing more...

Yeah, there's no way the Yankees trade Joba. He could be their closer next season, or even a good starter. Geez that guy is good...

If you trade Betemit and A-Rod leaves who is your 3rd basemen? Yankees would have to give up something like Phil Hughes, Robinson Cano, Ian Kennedy, plus another OF prospect most likely.

The "aside from Wang" talk could be a smoke screen.

If the Twins come to the conclusion that Santana won't be with them come 2009, a package of Chien-Ming Wang, Jose Tabata & Ian Kennedy should be enough.

Please stop commenting on the fact that this is a one year rental. It MAY turn out to be the case. I doubt it. Teams will want to negotiate a long-term deal with Santana before they trade away the farm.

Wang/Cano/Hughes would be a good trade for both clubs. Santana represents a huge upgrade over Wang. Hughes and Cano can be replaced through FA.

The Twins win with 2 cheap starting pitchers (both of which are solid 2 to 3 starters) and some offense coming out of the black hole that was is known as the Twins second base position.

If you go the Dodger route you get higher upside but less proven talent. If the Twins want to build for a run in 09 and be competitive in 08 the Yankees offer seems fair.

errr I meant to say he is a pretty solid dependable starter.

Anyways I wouldn't want to do this deal if it's Wang + Hughes or Wang + Cano because of how bad the potential replacements would be for Cano and Hughes that it is probably as much as you gain from the upgrade from Wang to Santana (would probably be looking at Jeff Karstens or Kei Igawa as a replacement for Hughes and I don't even know if we have anybody half decent for 2B)

I would think it would take something like Cano + Joba if Hughes isn't involved....but maybe thats just me.

Perhaps we can stop talking about what the Twins want, and more about what, say the Dodgers want.

Wang, Hughes and Cano? great, but where does that leave the Twins? Garza, Liriano, Slowly, Baker, Bonser, Hughes and Wang? there are some more trades coming. And i assume the Twins have some more coming through, they always seem to.

For the young rotation the Twins have, Tabata should be a non-negotiable inclusion from the Yankees side.

On the pitching side, what the Twins really want is an experienced workhorse to guide and lead that rotation, perferably a big name to help sell out the new stadium - Johan Santana anyone?

meh, Tex is a pretty darn good player in his own right and he was locked down for a year and half at affordable price, and the package had at most one great prospect (Salty, and this is assuming he can stay at C, which might or might not happen). If it's one elite starting prospect and two elite position prospect, and you can bet your house that Santana is going to FA for 2 draft picks.

A lot of you are pricing Santana like the Twins can get a dollar for dollar trade for him, there is absolutely no way that happens.

-there are only a handful of teams that have the talent and payroll to make it happen to begin with.
-he is not going to give any discount to twins and they simply can't afford him.
-you simply don't get full value trades for the best players in the game. You can trade Kobe Bryant and at best you get a 50 cent on the dollar for him and it won't be any different for Santana

why are people continuing to mention Wang? it says in the story "apparently a Yankee exec asked who the team would need to part with aside from Chien-Ming Wang" meaning that the Yankees dont want to include Wang. in that case the Twins should be saying fine we dont want Wang anyway. Wang is no ace, IMO hes not even a top tier #2 pitcher.
Cano is a decent 2B, but hes no star.
Wang and Cano just wont get it done.

there should be 2 names the Twins mention to be atleast a starting point and thats Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain. if the Yankees are not willing to include atleast one of those players then the Twins simply say ok no deal.

Baltimore has fired Leo Mazzone. That organization is awesome.

So if the Twins aren't interested in pitching prospects, what exactly would Boston be able to offer? Here's a hint: Jacoby Ellsbury is not exactly Adam Jones. Not even close, in fact.

It amazes me that people think Wang is some awful pitcher, and that Cano is worthless. When will people learn?

you must not be a yankees fan or anything :/

SpecialNFK - you should read the entire story. I thought the same thing as you - that the deal was to exclude Wang. However, it is clear that Wang would be the centerpiece.

Also, why is everyone ripping on Wang? The guy is 3 years into his career. He has posted ERA's of 4.02, 3.63 and 3.70. All while pitching for the Yanks in the offense heavy AL East.

We have people drooling over Garland. Just compare the two. Wang is younger, lower ERA (about a full run over their career), plays in a more pressure filled situation, and makes about $11m less.

Cano is a .300 hitter with 20HR's. He also comes cheap.

Look, I'm no Yankee fan but you have to be fair. Wang is a pretty darn desirable pitcher and Cano would start for just about any team.

theres more to a pitcher than wins. wins come from run support.
look into some Wang numbers..
this season- 199.1 IP, 199 H, 1.29 WHIP, .265 BAA
last season- 218 IP, 233 H, 1.31 WHIP, .277 BAA
not exactly top tier type pitcher numbers.
Santana this season- 219 IP, 183 H, 1.07 WHIP, .225 BAA
Santana last season- 233.2 IP, 186 H, 1.00 WHIP, .216 BAA

plus if im another team looking at Wang, id be very affraid of the numbers he put up away from Yankee stadium. look at the splits, hes been terrible each season away from Yankee Stadium..
05- 50.1 IP, 51 H, 4.65 ERA, 1.31 WHIP, .264 BAA
06- 99.1 IP, 121 H, 4.35 ERA, 1.47 WHIP, .304 BAA
07- 88 IP, 103 H, 4.91 ERA, 1.50 WHIP, .300 BAA
if im the Twins theres no way im interested in Wang.

You can cross the DBacks off as suitors. They don't have the cash to pay Santana for 08 let alone extend him.

I wish it was different but it's the discount rack for my snakes until they payoff the 2001 season.

The first limitation with Santana is that only a big market team is going to make a serious push for Santana during the offseason. I don't think he'll get $30 million a season, I mean I know the SP market is pricey but that's $1 million per start; it just won't happen. But he'll definitely get $20-25 million. I mean, I know Barry Zito sucked, but that still was the biggest pitching contract ever. Santana isn't going to virtually double that watermark.

So now you've already ruled out at least half of the teams in baseball for the offseason. Then you have to talk about a reasonable match. Its not like some team is just going to come up with the perfect trade that everyone's happy with.

If you're the Yankees you can talk about a lot of guys with a lot of hype and a few MLBers who don't look like superstars but look pretty darn solid in Wang and Cano. The Yankees can't afford to make a three man package out of just those guys though; its just too high a price. But the Twins might not accept any less. Plus, the Twins could probably find more offense somewhere else along with top flight pitching unless the Yankees are willing to talk Tabata or Cano; and neither of those guys fit perfectly either. The Twins need a replacement for Tori Hunter more than an upgrade at 2B (although it certainly wouldn't hurt) and Tabata may still be at least a year away anyway.

If you're the Mets you have a somewhat similar situation; except the only legitimate MLB position player who's been mentioned IS a bonafide superstar in the making in Jose Reyes, and realistically he's probably not in play. Then you have a bunch of guys fringing right on the cusp of breaking out. It would be really risky for the Twins to try and take something like Milledge, Pelfrey, Humber and maybe one more player. Positionally that package matches up well. They get a young CF to replace Tori Hunter and two young SP who have top of the rotation potential. But none of those players have really proven much at all at the MLB level yet. None of them necessarily should have been a top-level impact player yet based on development, but any could be. Its the kind of deal that could turn out the be a bust or be brilliant for the Twins. Milledge could be the next Alex Rios and Pelfrey could be the next Brandon Webb; or they could both fringe for a couple years then fade.

The Dodgers may match up best from the Twins perspective. Matt Kemp is a huge chip. He's further along that Lastings Milledge (although I'm not sure if I'd want him in CF, but to be fair if I hadn't seen Milledge play there when Beltran was hurt I'd probably say the same for him) and has shown his offensive superiority at the MLB level. But should the Dodgers trade offense for pitching right now? Probably not. Its kind of trading from a weakness to add to a strength.

The Red Sox could also make an interesting matchup with guys like Buchholz and Ellsbury.

After that you almost come down a step in terms of payroll and theoretical matchups. The Giants probably don't have the prospects outside of Lincecum or the money for Pitching with the Zito contract. If the Cubs wanted to keep expanding payroll they could probably afford it but they probably don't have enough of a package to build around Pie. The Phillies would probably have to put Cole Hamels in play and that would be flat out unwise. The Braves farm is a bit barren and their payroll is paralyzed.

I admittedly know less about AL teams, but the only others I can think of that would dream of spending Santana-money are the Angels, Rangers, White Sox and maybe the Tigers; and I can't think of a good match for the Twins from any of those teams.

"A team like the dodgers or D Backs who have tremendous systems can do this"

But would they give up so much for just 1 year of Santana?

I think even Yankee fans will now admit that Wang is not a true ace. If I were the Twins, I'd pass on Wang and grab Chamberlain from the Yankees or Buchholz from the Red Sox. A package that centered around either one would be far better than one that included Wang.

Trade proposal from the Angels:

Brandon Wood (SS-3B)
Reggie Willits (OF)
Joe Saunders (SP)
Eric Aybar (IF)

Twins would land a future stud in Wood. Projects to be a .270 hitter w/ 30+hr power.

Willits is major league proven hitting .293 with a .393OBP. Throw in 27 steals in a shortened rookie season.

Saunders split the last 2 years with the Angels and AAA. He was a combined 15-8 w/ a 4.71 ERA. Former #1 draft pick.

Aybar's season was cut short this year due to injury. Projects out to be .300 hitter 10HR's, great glove, and 40SB speed.

All in all - 3 major league ready players that could start for the Twins now and one player that is probably a mid season call-up or starter for 2009.

ArodSucksAtLife - the Red Sox don't have room for the greatest pitcher in the game?

Beckett is $10m. This year Cy Young candidate. Last year an ERA over 5.00. History of injury problems (1 season w/ more than 30 starts). Could turn out to be a stud. Could turn out to be a bust. Think he has tons of upside and will be good but certainly not guaranteed.

Dice-K is only $8m next year but you neglected to point out the $50m you paid just to negotiate with the guy. Effectively his overall cost is double his salary making him a $16m - 18m/year pitcher.

Wakefield is a good value at $4m. Of course the guy will be 42 next year coming off a year where his WHIP was 1.35 and ERA near 5.00. Can't really expect him to improve on that.

Buchholz has 3 career MLB starts under his belt while Lester has 26 (which include a collective ERA of 4.68 and a WHIP of almost 1.60). Both have good upside, with Buchholz having great upside. Again though, no guarantees.

If you are a team like the Red Sox why squabble over a few million bucks. Santana is unique and guys like him just don't come along. When was the last time a pitcher of his stature hit the FA market? They don't. You want elite talent it will cost you prospects. In Santana's case it will cost the farm.

"the Red Sox don't have room for the greatest pitcher in the game?"

You are going with the worst case scenario.

The team is about to win a World Series.

I was making the point that the Red Sox are basically the only team in baseball that could tell the Twins to f' off when they have a counter offer for what people are trying to trade Johan Santana for.

First, there are a couple of flaws with the list of four possible candidates (from a Red Sox perspective).

Andy Marte is in the CLE system (traded for Coco Crisp) and Hansen has been immensely terrible.

I would however add Coco (signed for cheap), Jed Lowrie (M.L. player of the year at SS), and Jon Lester to the list that could be packaged for Santana.

"1. Yankees

Chien-Ming Wang OR Robinson Cano AND two of Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera.

2. Mets

Any three of Lastings Milledge, Carlos Gomez, Fernando Martinez, Mike Pelfrey, Phillip Humber, Deolis Guerra.

3. Red Sox

Any three of Clay Buchholz, Dustin Pedroia, Jacob Ellsbury, Craig Hansen, Ande Marte, John Lester. "

Jesus Christ man, you have no clue about the value of players, do you? Wang OR Cano plus TWO of Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy or Cabrera?

And the Mets get off with just unproven, and really not all that great, prospects? And the Sox get to give up a maximum of Pedroia, Buchholz and...Lester? Here's a hint too, the Sox don't have Andy Marte anymore, the Indians do. And he's not all that great.

Wang and Cano are both > Pedroia already. And Buchholz may be > Chamberlain. All the rest, Lester, Hansen, are pretty much throw-ins at this point in a trade for any premium player.

I seriously can't believe how little people value Yankees. It's like they hate them so much, they value them at 50% of their value...

There's no doubt the yankees could put together an impressive package. I think some people here are grossly undervaluing Cano and/or Wang, but I think that the majority of the population knows that it would be utterly moronic to move a package like Cano, Hughes, and Kennedy for Santana. Twins would be thanking you for 40% of their rotation for the next 5-6 years.

I think when people include the likes of Lester or Pedroia in the conversation, its not saying that Pedroia is better than Cano, or Lester is better than Hughes because that's clearly not the case. Its just that these names can be included in the discussion and could be realistically placed in a package (as the 2/3rd piece) to net a player like Santana.

Cano will be a middle of the lineup hitter. Maybe that wont come to fruition in NY because of the players they will sign, but he would hit 3rd on a lot of teams. He's that good. I honestly wonder how beneficial it would be for the Yanks long-term to give up Cano, Hughes, and Kennedy for Santana. Cano is 24, Kennedy 22, and Hughes 21. All cheap and will stay cheap for a few years. Unless Arod walks even the Yankees need to have the cheap players to be able to afford the superstars that they bring in on a yearly basis.

To say Wang is not an ace is idiotic. Name 15 pitchers in the AL you'd rather have. If you can't he's a #1. Is he an ace like the Yankees have had in the past? No. Is he a top 5 starter in the AL? Probably not. But he's certainly good enough to warrant the "ace" title. Guys solid as heck. Don't really understand how he does it in such an unconventional way, but he's really showing us (playoffs aside) that he can do it consistently over the course of a few years, which in today's baseball world, is pretty uncommon.

All I know is, as a Red Sox fan, I hope they make a trade like breaking the bank for Santana or even better, (fingers crossed) a deal for Dontrelle.

I mentioned earlier that I like Cano and Wang. Just not sure if I agree that Cano is a middle of the lineup hitter. He projects out to be a .300 hitter with 15-20 homers, a terrible OBP, and is just OK with the glove. Now that's not bad by any stretch of the imagination. But no one will confuse Cano with Utley.

As for the young Yankee pitchers be careful not make the same mistake you are accusing Red Sox fans of making. Namely, over-valuing prospects. Joba has the equivalent of 3 starts under his belt. Hughes has half a season. Kennedy, even less. While all 3 pitchers could be great, there are no locks among any of them.

Everyone needs to understand that there is a HUGE difference between a guy getting hot for half a season vs a player who has 5-7 years experience. Good prospects flame out all of the time.

First of all, no way the Twisn would take a Wang/Hughes/Kennedy package. Why do they need THREE starters back? Their rotation could be set fine with ZERO pitchers back. And Kennedy REALLY has no value for them. He wouldn't even crack the rotation. All of Liriano/Garza/Baker/Slowey/Boof/Perkins project better than him as starters. And there's another crop of Twins' SP prospects on the way.

I really don't see the Yankees as a likely option at all.

On the Angels, I don't see them as likely either. Saunders doesn't offer much for the Twins. He'd be a 4 or 5 starter for them at best. Woods is Dallas McPherson II with his K's. Willits is really a great 4th OF, nothing more. Doesn't offer much. And Aybar, while great, is still a SS or 2b, and the Twins kind of have their future options there in Bartlett, and one of Casilla/Tolbert. Remember they just dealt the Angels to GET Casilla at 2b 2 years ago, so he's obviously a guy they're high on. I just don't see it. The Dodgers continue to have the best package IF Santana is dealt, filling all of 3b/CF/SP capably for the Twins, and all cheaply. Plus they're in the opposite league, which makes more sense as well.

I still think Santana will be-resigned though.

BJ, as for the Twins next year, it really all boils down to if you think they are more like the 2006 version or the 2007 version. I believe they're more like the 2006 version, when they won 96 games. Liriano/Garza add a lot of wins, but people also forget about their offense this year re: injuries. Mauer (groin injury all year-missed 2 months also)/Cuddyer (missed 3 weeks-thumb injury for 2 months, which saps all power)/Bartlett (groin/neck/shoulder injuries all year, which effected all of defense, speed, offense) were all hurt most of the year, Kubel was just finally hitting his stride from his knee surgeries (he showed what he could do the last 2 months, and is finally making good on his former top 20 prospect status), and Morneau was great for 4 months, but wore down the last 2 months. That is 5 of their 6 best offensive players with injury problems or a slump (in Morneau's case). Just having those guys healthy next year should be huge. Plus the fact that their 3b situation was about the worst in MLB history last year with the year Punto had. That doesn't figure to be THAT bad again, no matter who's there.

They definitely need to replace Torii if he's gone, as well as find a 3b/DH (the problem they've had for years) but even with re-signing Santana, they have already said payroll figures to be $80 M this year. That means even with standard arbitration raises to Morneau/Cuddyer/Kubel, and Mauer's raise, they still have about $20-25 M to work with, PLUS a lot of excess pitching (one of Nathan/Boof, and Rincon) to fill those 3 holes. That's easily doable.

We will see what they do, but IF they solve 3b/DH/CF, the Twins have an excellent shot to win not only the Central next year, but also the World Series with the sick staff they should have.

That's because even mentioning a ROY award in terms of player projection is retarded.

"Yea when you make a post.Make sure you have ur facts right first.Andy Marte was on the Redsox for not that long then got traded to the Indians last winter like where the hell have you been ?"

When you make a post how about using that big long bar at the bottom of the keyboard after using a period. It makes a little space in between the period and the beginning of the next word. It really is something.

And these are just the guys who I think are better pitchers then Wang right now. The question you actually asked was name 15 guys YOU WOULD RATHER HAVE. If I answered that question, this list would have been much longer once you start adding the Garza's/Hughes/Joba's.

here are some pitchers i think are better than Wang right now..

Daisuke Matsuzaka
Josh Beckett
Scott Kazmir
James Shields
Erik Bedard
Roy Halladay
Dustin McGowan
A.J. Burnett
C.C. Sabathia
Fausto Carmona
Justin Verlander
Johan Santana
Fransisco Liriano
Javier Vázquez
Gil Meche
theres 15 and i havnt even gotten to the AL West, should i go on??

Felix Hernandez
John Lackey
Kelvim Escobar
Jered Weaver
Dan Haren
theres 20, and i could probually go even further.

if you want to argue against any of those pitchers feel free.
Meche? forget W&L. put Meche on the Yankees and he too could have the wins that Wang got, and put Wang on the Royals and he could have loses similar to Meche.
compare the numbers..
Meche- 216 IP, 218 H, 3.67 ERA, 1.30 WHIP, .263 BAA, 156 K
Wang- 199.1 IP, 199 H, 3.70 ERA, 1.29 WHIP, .265 BAA, 104 K
would you say Meche is as good as Wang? one could argue Meche is an "ace" ..atleast to the Royals he is their "ace" but i wouldnt go saying he is one of the better pitchers in the AL.
Wang is decent, but hes NOT one of the top tier starters in the AL, and theres no way the Twins should want Wang in a deal for arguably one of the best pitchers in all of baseball.

Weaver does suck, but otherwise he's right. Wang is a solid #2, that's it. Yanks aren't going anywhere with their rotation. And haven't for a decade now. They need to wise up and realize that.

No way would I trade Wang for Santana straight up, let alone add anyone else. Wang's got 4 more years of control and although he isn't as good as Santana, his value IMHO is much higher due to cost over the next 4 years.

you wouldnt trade Wang straight up for even 1 season on Santana? i think the Yankees would, but i could be wrong.
i remember back when the Yankees first got Randy Johnson.. people were saying Johnson could get 25 wins. well you put Santana on the Yankees next season and he could win 30(or more). he could have a chance to win every game he starts. dominate LH pitcher pitching half his games at Yankee stadium with a deep left field, pencil in 30 wins.

i would think the Twins are smart enough to NOT be interested in Wang, and to know what theyre talking about when it comes to prospects ..after all they got Nathan AND Fransisco Liriano from San Fransisco for AJ Pierzynski.

as allready mentioned the Twins dont even need pitching in return with the young pitchers they allready have.. Liriano/Garza/Bonser/Baker/Slowey.

Burnett might have a higher ERA than Wang (3.75-3.70) but he has other impressive numbers. Wang had alomst the same amout of H than IP. Burnett had 34.2 more IP than H, 72 more K in like 34 less IP. id much rather have Burnett over Wang.
McGowan may have had a worse ERA but he had a better WHIP, better IP/H, and better BAA. WHIP(1.22-1.30) IP/H(169.2/146-199.1/199) BAA(.230-.265).
maybe Wang gets lucky with the defence behind him? and thats why he is able to have the ERA he does.
Wang gives up too many hit. if he had higher K's he might be able to get away with it, but he doesnt.
IMO if Wang even wants to be considered a good #2 SP he needs to cut down on the H per IP.
IMO you put Wang on a team with a lesser offense and he would be a good #3 SP.

People keep saying Wang's era was 3.70. Well, if you include the two post-season starts against Cleveland (pretty relevant, since the Twins have to beat Cleveland)his era was 4.15.

I don't think number of double plays indicate just how bad the defense is, he would get more double plays if the defense was better. A lot of hits would have been outs if the fielders had more range.

Any sinkerball pitchers will have days when the ball doesn't sink, just like any pitcher will have days that their stuff isn't working. *shrug*