Torre's Status Will Influence Rivera

I fully agree that Nathan is the guy that needs to go for the Twins, as good as he is. He is probably the best CL in the game, but CL's are overrated, and they have good in-house replacements. Plus that money is better spent. Neshek is a former minor league closer of the year and can be just fine, and Boof Bonser can move to a setup role (more effective in the pen) with Perkins/Rincon taking 7th inning duty, along with Guerrier and Reyes. That's a VERY deep, versatile pen, even without Nathan. And that's not even counting Jesse Crain, another former minor league closer of the year, who will be back next year as well. And their rotation is still great with Santana (resigned)/Garza/Liriano/Baker/Slowey. In fact, that should be the best rotation in the AL next year.

If they could get Cano, that would solve 3b for them, and without Nathan's $6 M on the payroll, they could afford a DH. Something like this starting lineup with the above staff would make for a VERY good team:

Bartlett-SS
Cano-3b
Mauer-C
Hunter/Rowand-CF
Morneau-1b
Cuddyer-RF
Kubel-LF
Piazza-DH
Punto/Casilla/Tolbert-2b

That might just be the best team in baseball next year.

I'd take it. Enter Sandman would sound weird on the church organ.

Rivera is probably going to stay a Yankee, unless he has some sort of desire to play elsewhere and probably for lower price. It's just unfortunate that Torre isn't going to be the Yankee's skipper next year because he isn't the reason that the Yanks havn't been to the World series in four years or won one since 2000. Oh well, maybe he'll come to Atlanta and be the Braves bench coach until Bobby retires :)

I agree that Cano is more valuable than Nathan, but for the Yanks, I'm not so sure. Mo is about done right now. And Joba almost HAS to be a starter given their other dwindling options there. Really only Hughes/Wang/Kennedy are viable starters for the club after 2008. So Joba almost has to start there. So if you don't have him in relief, you have to replace Mo, the backbone of your WS teams of the past. Who better to replace him with than Nathan? Cano is great, but they can at least get a roughly league average 2b next year with the many options out there (like Castillo or someone similar). Given the market, the Yanks CANNOT get a good pitcher or closer without a deal. You have to give something to get something in those areas.

I just don't see the Yanks doing this. There's no impetus to trade Cano, and they don't need Nathan that badly.

Either they resign Rivera and the point is moot, or they use Chamberlain as their answer to Papelbon. A rotation of Mussina-Pettite-Wang-Hughes-Kennedy will more than suffice in 2008, and if Moose isn't an option 1 FA starter or cheap trade isn't likely to overly weaken a team with that lineup.

Sure, 2009 isn't solved, but there's a whole year for internal options to develop... you never know when another viable starter or closer will appear unexpectedly within your own system (see Putz, J.J.). Trade and FA options for starters in 2008 have to be better than they are right now; I bet the Yankees hold on for a year in that department.

I agree 2008 is not a big concern - if Rivera signs, the point is moot.

If he doesn't Joba could do it. If they decide then that they need to do it, they could trade for Nathan or another closer at the deadline and start Chamberlain's transition to the rotation (good to limit his innings too).

If Joba stays the closer in 2008, you don't know who will be available in 2009. Even someone internal, like Sanchez or Ohlendorf are possibilities. Dare I say it, even Edwar, if he gains better control of his fastball and improves the slider. With his k-rate and lack of quality pitches, one inning at a time might work. I doubt it - just saying there are options though, and in the absolute worst case they can go outside the organization in mid-2008 at the earliest.

Yes, age-wise he's about done. I really don't see him being even league average by the end of next year, and for the Yankees, that's a problem.

Also, I have a huge problem with that rotation if I'm the Yankees. 1) Pettitte is no lock to be back without Torre, and you're counting on 2 kids already in Hughes/Kennedy. Kennedy is really just a 5th starter (4th at best) so as a young guy, that could be an issue. 2) Mussina is done. I wouldn't want him anywhere near a rotation at this point. If you guys are going for 3rd in the AL East next year, that's fine. If you're still the Yankees however, it's not.

Mo could go, Posada could go, Torre will go, A-rod will go. Pettite might go. This could be an awesome off season, even if Theo sits on his ass and does nothing. All that and Kennedy sucks.

Funny how Sox fans are all about the Yankees offseason when they're still playing. Obsessions die hard.

If Nathan is made available and the Yanks havent' re-signed Rivera, I definitely see them at the front of the line. If they are not willing to give up Cano (and Betemit could probably play a capable 2b to replace him), the Twins would probably ask for a package including Melky, Betemit, and Andrew Brackman, at least.

The Cubs would also make a lot of sense for Nathan - especially if they get into the ARod sweepstakes. Twins have a big hole at 3B which A. Ramirez could fill, and if the Cubs got ARod, it would seem to be a fit for both teams.

Not Joe Morgan, You have to admit, it will be pretty interesting to see what happens to the yankees during the offseason. I don't think they will be able to find a way to get better, because what they need isnt on the market and they have key players who could depart.

No, I don't think a Hughes/Joba/Kennedy 3/4/5 is all that actually, especially not for a "playoff" team. Hughes has a ton of talent, but still a learning curve with very few innings up here so far. Joba is a huge health risk. And Kennedy at BEST LONGTERM is a #4 starter anyway. So for him to be a quality #5 immediately is certainly no lock. And that's the other thing; it's not like Wang is an ace, or Pettitte is a quality #2 at this point. Mussina should be a #6 starter at best.

I really can't believe Yankees fans haven't figured it out yet; you can't win anything without pitching. And the Yanks are a LONG way away from having that at this stage. To fill out a rotation, you have to give something up. Unless you guys are content to go into next season with the "stars" of this FA class, guys like Carlos Silva, forming your 1 or 2 in your rotation. The Yanks won't make the playoffs next year WITH ARod. Without him, they'll finish no higher than 3rd in the AL East for the first time in a while.

Boy, sounds like someone's a little jealous of the young Yankee pitchers, djskilbr.

Do us a favor and list which teams' 3-4-5 you'd like over Hughes/Joba/Kennedy.

Kennedy's upside (not to imply that it's likely) is Mussina in his prime, maybe minus a couple mph on his fastball.

Is Wang an ace? Depends on your definition. I agree with you, though some might disagree. I consider an ace to be a guy where you're surprised when he gives up 3 or more runs in a game. Wang isn't there yet, and I don't think he'll ever be. But at worst, he's a very good #2. Others would say though, that an ace would be one of the top 14 starters in the AL. And Wang certainly is that (albeit closer to #14 than #1) but just about every metric.

Pettitte's not a #2? If not he's close to it. By the same logic, a reasonable definition of a #2 AL starter is one of the top 28 starters. Again, Pettitte clearly is. 16th in FIP, 22nd or so in ERA (which was inflated due to a .325 BABIP).

I could go on. Point is, top to bottom the rotation is very good. I still dare you to list teams with a better 3/4/5. I might agree with some, but not many (off the top of my head, there's...um...zero in the AL). Every pitcher is a health risk and many of the best pitchers each year are inexperienced. To have two bona fide potential ace starters as your #3 and #4? I do not think there's a single team in baseball that can say that.

Finally - you need a true ace to win in the postseason? I agree it's nice. I mean, look at all the WS the Twins have won with Santana.

The Postseason's a crapshoot. Who were the true aces on the 05 White Sox? Or all the Yankee WS teams in the past? The 2002 Angels? Or just look at the WS teams last year - Tigers? Even the Cardinals - they did have Carpenter, but they won also in part because of guys like Suppan and Jeff Weaver.

And you know, he may have talent, but Phil Hughes is no Jeff Weaver.

I would have wrote this sooner but I fell off my chair when you wrote that the Yankees are a "LONG" way from having pitching.

Now when I read it again, I'm pretty pissed, because I realize the whole thing was just tongue-in-cheek, and you're actually praising the Yankee pitchers, because I don't see any other explanation for some of the innane things you're writing.

I can't even imagine Mariano in another uniform besides the pinstripes. Which good team is in need of a closer? Cubs? Cleveland?

DJSKILBR: (Thats a lot of initials) You're assuming worst case for almost everything about the Yanks staff; Mariano's age, Pettitte's arm, Joba in general when you can say that about any staff. (Also, unless I've missed something, has Joba ever had anything more serious than tendinitis?) Again, I really like the way the rotation sets up next year. Two legit #2s in Wang and Pettitte, maybe another if Hughes or Joba makes the leap, and Kennedy on the back-end. Its easy to nitpick, but I don't think there are many rotations stronger top to bottom and the only real assumption that has to be made there is that Pettitte resigns. (I guess that the Yanks are smart enough to start Joba, but I trust they are) Injury-wise and collapse wise, they're no worse off than most. Is Boston counting on Schilling resigning and being healthy? Will Matsuzaka be closer to the ace they paid for? Will Beckett shoot the middle of 2006 and 2007 or was he completely for real? Will Liriano be fully recovered? Is Santana staying for the whole season or getting traded? Will Sabathia's workload catch up to him? Is Carmona for real and, even if he is, shouldn't his ERA jump atleast half a point? Is Escobar's arm healthy? You can come up with questions on any pitcher if you choose to.

ThemFightnWords: "You have to admit, it will be pretty interesting to see what happens to the yankees during the offseason". From a pure baseball fan standpoint, yes, I can't even start to argue that. From a diehard Yankees fan standpoint, its the most I've dreaded an offseason in forever. We have to sign two guys who've been at the core for over a decade, our #2 pitcher and the best player in baseball. If any of them leave, its a huge blow to the team. So basically, we have to go 4-4 and lay out $70MM for 2008 alone or else I'm unhappy. Not fun.

And right - Baker is a #2 but Hughes isn't.

Why's that? Because Baker had about 70 more innings this year? Or a bunch of innings with 6 ERA in the past? Or significantly worse minor league numbers?

Baker's good, and I like him, but if he's a #2, then Hughes is a #2.

Joba vs. Liriano? How can you discount Joba because of the supposed injury risk but count Liriano as part of a better rotation?

Pettitte's arm can go at any time. Just like ANY OTHER PITCHER. Is his arm more likely to go than Sabathia's? Maybe, because he's older. Or maybe not, because of Sabathia's workload.

Look, you're dealing 2 proven #2 starters, 2 pitchers with immense potential AND some experience (what do you think the over/under on Hughes and Joba's ERAs are next year? I'd say about 4 - do you disagree?), and the 2007 minor league pitcher of the year, who for some reason you can't imagine being better than a #4 starter.

You're honestly saying that there is no chance that Kennedy is in the top half of starters in the AL (not next year, I mean ever)? That's just absurd. Every single person who has seen him praises his makeup and intelligence. If he can't be better than a #4 because his fastball is only 92 mph (and that is the ONLY knock on him that exists), then I guess Glavine, Maddux, Moyer, Buerhle, etc. ( I could go on) have never been better than #4s.

Really, to give that cap on his upside is so incredibly shortsighted, I really don't know what to say.

Anyway, since we're talking about 2008, I'll put the over/under on his ERA around 4.5 - which yes, would make him a damn good 5th starter.

I really don't know what else to say. Try not to make your biases so obvious. If you want to bash the Yankees, try some legitimate criticism. Here, I'll help you:

"Your manager has no clue how to manage a bullpen."

"You're paying Giambi $20M a year."

"Your left fielder can't throw out Bengie Molina trying to score from first on a single."

"Your 2nd baseman has no plate discipline."

"Your shortstop has no range to his left."

"Your GM could have signed the catcher and closer easily in spring training."

But point out the worst case scenario for our young pitching, which anyone in the game would rate to be among the best, if not the best? Nope.

DJSKILBR: To be fair, Bobo isn't alone in claiming the Yanks have the best collection of minor league / 2007 callup pitchers ...

From Baseball Prospectus 2007 Team Minor League Rankings: "Philip Hughes leads off the best collection of mound talent in the game." TheY had the Yankees ranked 4th overall, 1st in pitching (by a decent margin).

Disagree if you like, but you claiming its "not even close" is far further from the truth than what he said. I'm going to venture a guess that the BP guys have put a lot more research into this than you.

Minnesota: Lirano coming back from a serious injury, Garza loooks big time, Slowey's profile is almost exactly the same as Kennedy, Perkins projects as a #3

Boston: Are you counting Beckett (28 next year) and Daisuke (27) as young pitching? Even Papelbon is 27 in a month. If this still qualifies as "young pitching" and not just "pitching", I can't argue. If you like Lester/Buccholz/Bowden more than Hughes/Chamberlain/Kennedy/Betances we'll have to agree to disagree.

Detroit: Verlander is already an ace and I'm still a big Bonderman guy but again, this depends on your definition of young pitching. I'd call these guys veterans by now (although they're younger than Boston) but if we're doing under 30 or still in arbitration, I'd agree. Verlander/Bonderman/Miller is pretty stellar.

Cleveland: See above.

Perhaps I misunderstood but when I think "young pitching", I'm not thinking 5 year MLB veterans.