Johan Santana Rumors: Wednesday

Oh man… You know, everyone loves to call them “Homers”, but after this thread we might need to change it to “Jasons”…

“As far as I knew as of last night, the last Yankee offer was Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and Austin Jackson. If Kennedy was taken out, then forgive me but that's all I knew about.”

…Never. That was never the deal. Since moment 1, the Yanks have said “Not Hughes + Kennedy”. They didn’t even talk all day yesterday though, so how they managed to up the offer to something they said they would never do while not even talking ~ well…

Oops, huh?

“I cannot believe you just compared Greg Maddux who has NEVER been a strikeout pitcher, and who has NEVER had a lot of torch in his delivery, to Johan Santana, who k's a ton of hitters, and who's arm whip is seriously ridiculous. Wow.”

… Santana K 25-28YO 156, 180, 186 and 183
… Maddux K 25-28YO 198, 199, 197 and 153

Oops, huh?

“Phil Hughes is a former #1 pick”

…Actually, he was picked 23rd…

Oops, huh?

“Andrew, I applaud Brian Cashman for this non-move. Yankees fans bitched and moaned when the Sox got Gagne from Texas, and the Yankees didn't budge. Yet Gagne almost single-handedly blew the division for Boston.
Now, Yankees fans are actually more appreciative, and not nearly as vocally against Cashman for not giving up the farm for this guy.
Over all, I think the non-moves are more helpful.”

…And what happens when they fail to make the playoffs this year? Really, what happens? All the Yankee fans run around the streets cheering because they didn’t give up kids who will have struggled in the season if forced to pitch 170+ IP? 6 years from now whaen Hughes has never panned out and no one remembers Horne or Jacksons name, will they be happy seeing the division title banners hanging on the BoSox walls? How happy do you think Hank will be when the teams fails for the first time in 14 years in his first year at the helm? Ya think Cashman will still have a job? Yah don’t think this is gonna come back and bite them in the rear at all?

...We all realize that you have your panties twisted over this, but it would be great if you could actually start saying true or thoughtout statements when you rant your feelings about this possible deal. As it is, youre just kind of throwing anything you can think of out there hopping it sticks to the wall… Well, it aint working, and your making yourself look like nothing but an ass…

"the Red Sox have won more rings since Pavano signed with the Yankees, than the Yankees have. They've been able to mask the Clement disaster, the Yankees haven't."

True, it's all about perception: "Oh look so what if we screwed up on that one contract, look at my rings! Aren't they shiny?"

Of course it hasn't helped the Yankees that Pavano's injuries are so stupid. I mean, his ass? Seriously?

After all this - now he might not be traded? What a tease.

"Peter Gammons via Amy Nelson is saying Santana may not be traded."

Because we've all seen how incredibly reliable Peter Gammons' word is recently.

Beth,

Yeah, grabbed the wrong stats when I typed it up real fast ~ those are the ones. But Maddux in the 180-200 range isnt a SO pitcher according to Jason ~ that was the point...

and Jason:
Meta has for some reason treated you civilly, but it doesnt make you any less an ass. Nothing you have really said in this thread makes sense, fits the situation or is anything other than your bias ranting. Reading this thread this morning was a joke because of your bias childish rants, yet your acting high and mighty as though youve actually made a point?

I dont know why anyone gave you the time of day anyway, but its about time you stop spilling the bull and let the adults have a real conversation...

Jayson Stark just told Max Kellerman that he thinks the Sox-Twins trade is falling apart, and that he wonders now if Boston ever truly wanted to make this trade.

darkstar1661, I treated Jason civilly because we're discussing baseball. It's not like we're arguing religion or world politics or he insulted your sister's virtue. So you disagree with his opinion and consider him uninformed; that doesn't mean your personal attacks on his character are warranted. You come across just as much the ass as you claim he does. Debunk his opinions if you can, but don't be a jerk about it; that accomplishes nothing.

Oh my gosh - Red Sox fans get over it! In 2006 Beckett was horrible - posting an ERA north of 5.00. This year his post-season heroics have catapulted him into being the best pitcher in the game? PLEASE take a basic statistics class. You will learn about an idea called SAMPLE SIZE. Very useful for evaluating talent.

It's not like this is new for Beckett. He pitched great in the playoffs before. Then he was mired in injury and mediocrity. He is a far cry from a sure bet.

I love how Santana is an injury risk. The guy was handled with kid gloves coming up through the system and for his first few years. Even now, he is limited with strict pitch counts.

Yeah - he strikes out a ton of guys. That makes him an injury risk. I can't ever recall any big time strike out pitchers who have pitched into their 40's (let alone into their mid 30's like Johan's next contract will take him into).

Well know that I have thought about it for one nanosecond Clemens, Schilling, Johnson come to mind ... I think they did OK.

It would have been classic to hear Jason tell us all about how Clemens wasn't worth anything at 29 because his arm would fall off any day.

After all this, he has to get traded.

he will be traded, i dont trust gammons on this for two reason, one, he is trusting someone elses report, two, he hasnt really been right recently

the red sox offer is better then the compensation pick they get, plus it fills there needs. They are just trying to scare the sox into putting ellsbury and lester into a deal together, i will reiterate, its not going to work. its not the sox fault that teams dont want to take on his salary and trade up to 5 players. its the best deal available and its better then the compensation pick, of course he is going to be traded.

scare tactics ladies and gentlemen

Will be stop pretending outfield assists is some predictor of great defense. At least half the time players have high outfield assists because teams want to challenge them, meaning new player or suspect arm. Manny Ramirez led all of baseball in outfield assists in 2005. That should have put the last nail in the coffin of the outfield assist lovers but apparently Melky Cabrera is bringing that back even though he was beat out by 2 converted infiedlers in the category last year.

Yes, Santana gave up a lot of home runs last year, IMO mostly due to a high fluke HR/FB rate. Something people do not realize about fenway is it was actually one of the best ballparks at suppressing home runs last year. 23rd overall and only 2 other AL parks were harder to hit home runs in (yes minnesota was one of them but the difference is hardly what people might speculate).

If the Twins would really have taken that Yankees package I am double surprised. Not sure if it more surpising that the Yankees turned that down or that the Twins have not traded him to the Red Sox yet if that is all they want.

If the Yankees go into next year with the rotation as is it would seem quite unlikely that they would win the world series if for no other reason than it is quite likely a key young pitcher is going to have to throw well to get them there yet will have to be shut down at some point if they do pitch well. Not the double edged sword I want to be playing with. The Yankees will likely be better for cashman but I doubt he will be there to see the rewards.

"You will learn about an idea called SAMPLE SIZE. Very useful for evaluating talent."

Yeah what an interesting concept. Something like looking at a young players career as opposed to cherry-picking the worst stat from his worst season.

"ArodSucksAtLife, I'd encourage you to research Peavy's lifetime career numbers in the postseason. I'm pretty sure they're not great. Beckett's are. Point. Set. Match."

Jake Peavy, 9.2 innings.

I am now going to make all my baseball predictions on 9.2 innings. Clay Buchholz will never ever ever ever ever give up a hit in baseball. After he retires with 18 world championships, 18 cy youngs, and 18 mvp awards Major League Baseball will officially cancel the league. The Senate will make it illegal to play baseball in the United States for the off chance that someone taints Clay's legacy. To quote a complete toolbox: Point. Set. Match.

"...I have no problem coming off like an ass in the face of childish dribble like that... you know that we have been dealing with similar Yankee-homer children running around in these threads the last week... Too many times they have highjacked a thread making it almost illegible to anyone following... Its driving other posters away, its not bringing anything truthful to the conversation, and its just going nowhere...Its just gotten way past old dealing with these children, and since this thread will get to 300 posts yet again, it would be nice if it wasnt 50% filled with the rantings of a lunatic..."

And how exactly is your acting like an ass making it better, darkstar? You call other people's behavior childish, yet you're exhibiting some of the same behaviors you've just criticized.

Discussion is a two-way street. If someone wants to champion "incorrect points they argue till blue in the face", that's their right; you're not obligated to agree with it, but they have as much right to express their opinion as you do, and EVERYONE has the right to expect that they can post without being subjected to attacks on their character.

As was pointed out above, the message is what we're supposed to be discussing; the messenger, in this setting, bears no weight, and shooting him doesn't affect the message, nor does it make the shooter appear any more clever or insightful. Disproving the message, or agreeing with it, is supposed to be why we're all here.

I for one would bet big money on the Yankees still getting Santana... All this "payroll" talk is just ridiculous. Aren't they going to be clearing up $25mil from Giambi and another $16mil from Abreau after the 2008 season? They are really worried about an extra $15 - $20mil on the payroll for 2008??? I just don't believe it. Hank-en-Stein is just posturing...

you know what another thing id like to see that id laugh at, if hank doesnt keep his word again, signs santana somehow, and then goes to the press conference and has to field questions about his "deadline" crap on pretty much all fronts. id laugh at no matter how he responded to them because all the stuff he says he sounds like a pissed of emo teenager.

@DonCoburleone:

2008: 80 Million
2009: 26 Million

That's how much the Yankees will get rid of in payroll over the next two years.

More than enough to sign Santana and hopefully Teixeira.

Actually got it the only parks its harder to hit a homerun in for a RH hitter than Fenway, are Tiger Stadium, Jacobs Field, and Petco. Pretty sure Santana's HR tendencies won't hurt him.

It's easier to hit HR's in Florida and San Diego than Fenway.

the only reason the twins will entertain the mets is the hope they can get reyes, thats all. that would have to be the centerpiece, other then that they dont have a leg to stand on. even with reyes involved, the twins will still probably want 3-4 more players with reyes, since the sox have potentially gone that far already

"A lefty fly-ball pitcher at Fenway is likely to see his HR totals increase. Given that he gave up more HRs than anyone in the AL league this year it is possible that a lot of balls will be landing in those coveted seats atop the Green Monster."

It's the internet, the single greatest collection of knowledge in the history of mankind, and people just say sh*t without looking or checking to see if what they say has any factual basis at all. I love it. This literally took me all of 10 minutes of checking.

lots of deals have been better then the compensation pick. the red sox have the better of the deals since they are the last ones standing.

this trade isnt about besting the yankees now, its about besting the potential fears the twins have of trading Santana, if the sox can help the twins get over that fear, done deal.

Are those Fenway numbers for this year only? Do you have a link?

Because Boston had one of its worst HR years in recent memory this year. They hit in the low 160s where traditionally over the past 10 years they've hit around 200, a couple times in the 220s and 230s.

All Omar can really do is offer the twins any 4-5 players in the organization aside from Wright and Reyes. If they turn that down, just move on.

Steve Phillips seconds ago:

"unlikely to get done during these meetings"

...Feels it seems to be going very slow and may not happen at all. Doubt the "happen at all" part, think people getting impatient and taking that as "wont happen"

darkstar1661, you yourself pointed out that there were many of these people who annoyed you so much. Jason was just one of them.

Also, how can you take credit for "driving him off"? For all you know he went out to lunch. I wasn't "encouraging" him in his behavior, I was reiterating - as I'm now doing to you - why it's important for us to remain civil. If anyone was "encouraging" behaving like an ass, it was the other people behaving the same way, and that includes you.

And if you really believe that we are now in "a situation where people aren’t afraid to post an opinion without having to defend it against a child showing his bias", I have news for you: if I post something you disagree with, I have no faith that you won't attack it like a child showing his bias.

That's what you did to Jason earlier; you used statistics to prove your point (some of them inaccurate), but you were rude, condescending and vicious. I use stats to prove my points too, but I never call people homers or suggest they're on crack.

And when you did directly address your main objection, you said:

"...We all realize that you have your panties twisted over this, but it would be great if you could actually start saying true or thoughtout statements when you rant your feelings about this possible deal. As it is, youre just kind of throwing anything you can think of out there hopping it sticks to the wall… Well, it aint working, and your making yourself look like nothing but an ass…"

You don't think that's a LITTLE condescending? Why did you have to descend to personal insults? Why not ask for proof to support his opinions?

You know what would really have discouraged that behavior? Not stooping to the same level. Ignoring it. Fanning the flames only made/makes it worse. I responded to Jason as I did in the hopes that we could put it in the past, and guess what? He went along with it, and was still involved in discussion. Until you came along and started insulting him.

Its possible that the Twins could end up with the best package from the mets, in the longrun, simply because the Mets prospects either have not had enough exposure to make them highly touted, or have gotten a first taste and failed. Last year, a package of Heilman, Pelfrey and Milledge would have been a strong package in a trade for an ace. A similar package almost got them Oswalt. But since the mets guys arent valued as high as the Sox, Yankees, Angels, Dodgers etc they would have to give up more guys. A package of Martinez, Pelfrey, Humber, Gomez could turn out sick in a few years. Pelfrey was among the highest ranked pitching prospects like a year ago, and some people say Humber is better then Pelfrey. Pelfrey looked ready in the spring last year, but he just wasnt ready. Had he started another year in AAA and dominated he might have bigger value. My point is, it could work in the Twins favor because they can probably get 5 pretty high upside players that have seen their value drop for whatever reason.

I dont see how any team would give up all of these guys for Santana, and give him the 6 or 7 years at 20 mil per that he wants. I wouldnt even want to give him that money if he was on the open market. How could anybody justify doing that. The more I think about it, the more I think every team should just stand pat, let Johan be a Twin for one more year, and then if you think it is the right thing to do, then pay him as a free agent. If some team gets silly and guts their own farm system for him, and then locks him up as if he were a free agent anyway, so be it.

First of all i've probably been a sox fan longer then you have been alive.

Secondly, I dont know how you can possibly think they wont win 78-81 games. I would put money on that not only are beckett and santana 18 game winner but both 20 game winners. thats 40 right there. ur askin for 38 wins from guys who all won 12-15 last year, and then you got wakefield who's resigned as well. Thats not a stretch of the imagination by any means. the only question mark would be bucholz who could go either way. but for a guy who threw a no hitter i would say 12-15 wins is not far from whats going to happen.

Also keep in mind that if ellsbury doesn't go this is a much more dominant lineup then the one with coco crisp and julio lugo batting in the low-mid .200s. This is a team which will go:

1) Ellsbury
2) Pedroia
3) Youkilis
4) Ortiz (played on bad knee last season, now healed)
5) Ramirez (healthy again)
6) Lowell (repeat year?)
7) JD Drew
8) Varitek
9) Lugo

That lineup is going to give these pitchers massive run suppport assuming everyone stays healthy. Once again... as always all calculations are based upon players staying healthy. If beckett goes down or santana goes down then my predictions will obviously be skewed. so please tell me where i'm "talking out of my ass"

Yeah well, it also says "Do not lie with ArodSucksAtLife as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Sorry, dude.

they may put youkilis in the 6 spot and shift everyone up one, but i see youkilis as becoming a very consistent hitter. He had what like a 30 game hit streak this past season? thats pretty impressive and on any team but the red sox, yankees and tigers worthy of a number 3 batting spot. youkilis is an essential part of the red sox offense, and i can put him in 2,3,5, or 6. he probably will be shifted around all year as he was this year. keep in mind when manny was injured they did move youkilis to the 3 hole

lugo will probably see some time in the number 1 and 8 spot as well depending on whos catching.

Because lets face it. It would not be smart managing by the twins to hold onto him. They are about 5-7 million dollars a year apart in negotiations. even if the mets work out a deal, they still (with the building of the new stadium and having to sign wright reyes and beltran to huge contracts)may not want to put in the money to buy a johan santana. 150 million is a big commitment. right now i think the mets are more poking around. if the mets are serious and do end up with santana they will have an amazing staff of their own. The red sox do have the open dollars due to the fact that they have upgraded fenway every year for past 6 years so doesn't have to be rebuilt and many of our players are young and have not earned those high contracts yet, but eventually will. Keep in mind the red sox are still about 80-100 million dollars payroll less than the yankees. i dont see any other options for the twins but to push off santana to the sox. they are right now stalling for time in my opinion hoping the red sox will up their offer, or the yanks will jump back in. but lets face it, the sox will already have the best or second best rotation in the AL without santana, so they are in no hurry and are waiting for the twins to give in. And steinbrenner doesn't want to be seen as a pushover so regardless i dont see the yankees signing johan (or haren for that matter).

Regarding "best right-hander in the game" comments ...

Picking Beckett over Peavy based on Peavy's 9 post-season innings is a bit silly. Look at the peripheral #s for the playoff performances of both players ...

You can call it "Clutch" if you want, but Beckett has also had a whole lot of luck during his remarkable playoff run.

Beckett: Hit Rate in the post season: .227 (career # = .296). Strand Rate in the post season: 83% (career # = 72%). In other words, that's a *whole lotta* luck. If you have an argument that Beckett can control either of those statistics by virtue of his "clutchiness", then I'd like to hear it.

Next post-season, you shouldn't presume that Beckett will maintain the same performance level, since a lot of his success was beyond his control.

Peavy's post-season hit rate: .418 (career = .296). Peavy's post-season strand rate : 53% (career = 77%). i.e. almost every ball hit had eyes and almost every baserunner he left to the bullpen was allowed to score. But again, it was only 9 innings.

I'd take Peavy over Beckett every day of the week and 2x on Sunday.

Meta,

What do you want???

I know what I said was condescending ~ and like I said, I have no problem with anyone thinking I was an ass for doing so. I’m here to talk realistic, intelligent conversation; not listed to a child rant because he’s bitter over something. You don’t think he was being condescending to others though, or insisting blatantly incorrect statements to be true?

You feel you will discourage it by going on and on and on with him trying to explain the entire world? Well, was it working? No, he just kept giving erroneous after erroneous statement over and over again as the two of you made the thread almost unreadable with the back and forth. He didn’t think about anything he really said, he just spit it out in his bias fashion and no one else was bothering to post. I’m not trying to take credit for driving the guy away, but it is interesting that he just happened disappeared as soon as anyone stooped to his level and questioned him. No matter what made him disappear ~ the thread is more active and insightful then it was with him here…

…But again I ask; what do you want? You want to make this conversation between me and you into the next overwhelming off-topic debate youre involved in that keeps people away from the thread? If you think I’m an ass, cool deal, glad to hear ~ I’m not here to make friends afterall. Restating your theory over and over and over again until you get whatever response you’re looking for isn’t going to accomplish anything though… Just let it go…

The Red Sox had 77 wins from starters last year.

"The Red Sox had 77 wins from starters last year. "

Holy crap, that's high! How did that compare to other teams?

"Yeah well, it also says "Do not lie with ArodSucksAtLife as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Sorry, dude."

AHHH HA HA HA HA. Nice.

I dont want to get to exited here, but it seems to me that with each update, it seems more and more unlikely that Santana is not going to get traded. If he does it better be to the NL.

"AHHH HA HA HA HA. Nice. "

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week. Tip your waitress.

I didn't realize Youk was such a hot prospect? Making your debut at 25 with no one blocking your advancement (i.e. Thome/Howard) doesn't seem all that "hot" to me.

It's funny that he has improved every year. He had a 50/50 shot to improve since we're talking about only 2 years. Plus, wouldn't you expect some improvement? And let's not get too excited. .033 in your overall OPS isn't anything amazing.

The guy seems like a terrific teammate, loves to walk, and has a solid glove. Being able to play 1b/3b also a huge bonus. I'm just not sold on him having a high ceiling. His value is exclusively his ability to walk. With a LA walk rate he become a LA 1st baseman at best (280/330/440).

Okay, I'll concede that Youk and Pedroia haven't got enough playing time to determine what their career numbers really are; they have both trended upwards the last couple of years, so I suppose it's possible the trend could continue; we'll have to wait and see.

Lowell, though, was FAR above his career numbers:

2007: .324 BA/.378 OBP/.501 SLG
Career: .280/.344/.468

Some of that was because he hits well in Fenway (career .316/.375/.512), so he'll retain some since half his games will still be there. And his RBI totals wil still be high; they'd have to be, hitting behind Ellsbury/ Pedroia/ Ortiz/ Manny. But his BABIP (batting average on balls in play) was high, which suggests he did get a bit lucky getting so many hits; so he should see some adjustment as well.

On the other hand, both Drew and Lugo had significantly down years; both were adjusting to the AL (and Drew had the added worry of the health of his infant son). They should both see upward adjustments now that they've got a year's AL experience under their belts.

Haha, the comments just keep on coming. I'm trying to read all your posts so that I can counter in one long post of my own, but these things you keep pulling out of thin air are too much. Are you trying to tell me that the difference in payroll for the Red Sox and Yankees last year was 80-100 million? Try 50 million, donkey.

Is this thread even remotely about Johan Santana anymore?

Meta,

“Look, what I want, since you ask, if for everyone to behave civil to each other. That means no personal insults or condescension. I agree completely that these discussion boards get clogged with all the wrong things; they're supposed to be baseball conversation. So can we just agree that "Homer" and "on crack" and "you're an ass" accomplish nothing, and move on and not write things like that any more?”

I too wish we could get to the situation you are calling for, but doubt it will ever happen. See, unfortunately the quotes you mention do accomplish something when dealing with a certain level of person, hence the reason they are so commonly used. The guy we are specifically talking about was insisting that Melky led all OFers in assists, going as far as to tell people to “look it up” when they questioned it ~ apparently never dreaming of doing so himself... He just wanted to repeat and insist on his bias feelings being the case because he apparently felt insecure about something or didn’t find it important enough to learn the truth. Well, he wasn’t getting better, he wasn’t going away and anytime he was proven wrong his reply was little more than “well don’t question me, I’m just repeating others”.

You tried to enlighten him, and I commend you for that ~ but at some point you have to expect a person to step in and call a spade a spade in an attempt to just shut him up. Some people are lost causes ~ at which point its better to chase them off then let them ruin things for others. Some people do it on purpose to insight problems ~ making it even more frustrating or a situation. Calling a “Homer” might create an immediate result where the situation gets worse, but it lasts for just moments and the desired situation is achieved at a much, much quicker pace. Hence the reason so many others resort to calling a spade a spade at the drop of a hat instead of going through the enlightening process…

If you want the situation you are calling for, I think you are addressing the wrong side of the coin. If you can somehow teach everyone to be more open-minded, back up their statements with truth and logical explanations, and be more willing to accept the input of others, then you will receive your desired results ~ until then I suggest you suck it up and expect others to deal with it in the much quicker and easier way, dismissing a spade for a spade and making sure he knows we recognize him as such. Remember too, “Homer” is actually pretty much replacing “Troll” ~ a person who by the Wikipedia definition is a person who knowingly posts incorrect, condescending or argumentative posts for the purpose of causing strife. Erase the Troll mentality in others and you will find the real outcome you want; until then you will continue to see them, and some who seem they might be of their kind, called out…

Now, I think I answered your question and hope this conversation is now over. Again, sorry you didn’t care for the way I handled it but maybe now you may realize I did so with outcome in mind instead of the runaround…

As far as the actual on-topic stuff,

Trading Johan has to be an extremely difficult situation, esp when they only started talking about it a few days ago. I don’t understand why many reporters are making it into such a big deal that it is taking some time. I have to imagine that the Twins and RedSox want to do other things while at the meetings, putting their talks on hold as to conduct the other business doesn’t mean much if you really think about it. The media likes to make a big tado over the most minor of things, just because so many are speculating that the talks might be going south, doesn’t mean its true though. They have 3 more months before anything really needs to take place, a little more patience than Hank likes to show is probably needed here…

darkstar1661, let's just say that I don't agree with your methods (I believe in leading by example) and leave it at that.

(And just for the record, I've seen your more insightful posts; I never thought that your comments were meant to be malicious and nothing else. You replied to me several times, clearly frustrated, but you were never insulting, and I appreciated it.)

“Yeah, I was wondering why everyone seemed to find it necessary to get it done nownowNOW! I suppose some people are still afraid the Yankees will sweep back in, and want the Sox to lock Santana up before that happens”

…Honestly, I kind of think both teams are hoping that the Yanks do jump in with Hughes+Kennedy+Melky… If they show their impatience and are willing to outbid themselves like they have in the past, it could happen. Boston probably wouldn’t be too worried because they lose 2 SP from their future plans and spend a ton more cash, making it harder to fill the open spot. Min has always wanted that from them. Shoot, maybe we even see Kennedy traded to the BoSox for Elsbury or something crazy like that :)

Otherwise, the way of the World is “nownowNOW” at this point. Its just another one of those things we have to suck up and deal with…

…as far as the other stuff:
“I believe in leading by example”. Oh, as do I ~ in the real world… On the internet though, well... If you do know my posts, you may know that "those tactics" are not something I always resort to myself (sometimes, but not always), I have tried the other ways many, many times for hours on end myself...
The beauty/pitfall of the net is you can portray emotions youre not necessarily even feeling with little effort. Many things you perceive to be the case often times aren’t. People become extremely manipulating and conniving in their approach. It’s a mess ~ sometimes it just easier to stoop to their level and just stop it instead of playing the game :)

For what it's worth:

"A baseball official close to Boston management, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to disclose information, said the Red Sox and Twins are continuing to negotiate on players in a possible Johan Santana deal Wednesday.
The official added that the Red Sox are making offers as if there is still competition for Santana. For what it's worth, Will Carroll of Baseball Prospectus still thinks the deal is going down, though the Twins want to know more about the condition of Jon Lester's arm before they proceed. There's been some speculation that Jacoby Ellsbury's recent move to make Scott Boras his agent could have the Twins souring on him, but with six years to go before free agency, that can't be a major concern right now.
Source: Newark Star-Ledger"

For the Red Sox to obtain Santana, I think a few things would have to happen

1) The supposed major suitors would have to "drop out" (i.e. Mets, Mariners, Angels, and Dodgers but not the Yankees)

2) The Twins have to realize that the Sox have been completely fair and have been flexible under their limits, and that the Sox offer just might be the best offer out there with the other teams realizing that their own teams negotiations aren't going anywhere or that what they're offering just doesn't match-up to the TWO packages offered by the Sox.

3) For a deal to be completed, I think the Sox would have to pay most of Coco's salary, if that were the package that the Twins wanted.