Angelos Killed 7-For-2 Bedard/Roberts Deal With Cubs?

Looks right to me. This reminds me of when Angelos supposedly killed the Mets/O's/Astros 3 way that would have brought Oswalt to the Mets. Ugh.

1. Felix Pie
2. Sean Marshall
3. Sean Gallagher
4. Matt Murton
5. Mike Fonetnot
6. Eric Patterson
7. Donnie Veal

and this is why the orioles said no. because besides pie, they wouldnt be getting someone with star potential. i dont think hendry would give up hill in this deal. And i dont think he would include pie AND colvin

Is Vitters tradeable yet?

For the record, because I keep hearing his name, Josh Vitters is not tradeable. It is illegal for a player to be traded within a year of his Rule IV draft. That being said, I'll eliminate another name: Rich Hill. Jim Hendry told me directly on Thursday at a luncheon that there is no player in baseball right now that he would trade Rich Hill for. I'm sure that was an exaggeration to prove a point, but that was two days ago. I guess it was probably the following players:

Tyler Colvin
Josh Donaldson
Matt Murton
Donnie Veal
Sean Marshall
Sean Gallagher
Rocky Rochette (sic)

Why dont the cubs just go after Santana?

I know you throw all speculations out there, but tou needn't use a misleading headline. Baltimore sources say this is false in all regards. No 7-2 offer. No Angelos veto. This sort of speculation is like the earlier Roberts-trade-done-deal. Your headline states as a fact that this happened--Angelos vetoed a deal. Do you know this to be true? I don't believe you can. I believe it is false in all regards. I think this a bit irresponsible, Tim.

Plawright, the fact that it is solely a rumor with no basis is why there's a question mark at the end of the heading...

"Cubsin08"...I'm glad to hear that Hendry wouldn't trade Hill. I think he's a future 20 game winner, and I have said before that he has the BEST CURVEBALL in baseball (yes, better than Zito's).

I'm only in favor of getting Roberts if they move Fukodome to center to make a place for DeRosa. He's not going to get hardly any at bats if you move him around, and if they are constantly subbing him for people no one is going to get hot.

I don't trade away Bedard and Roberts without Hill. The Cubs don't have much depth in their system according to Baseball prospectus.

The Cubs do have just enough depth to get this sort of deal done, should the need arise. The Cubs have what the O's need; a young center fielder, a young second basemen(if Roberts is traded) and a young shortstop, plus arms to fill some holes in the O's rotation and bullpen. Besides, I'm not sure how Hill would fare in the NL East with his flyball tendencies.

why dont the cubs throw in to the santana race? Pie, Murton, hill and marmol would be pretty close to a deal id think?

wow man u really over value the cubs players and santana did not have a velocity drop in the second half, nice reading espn for , yet i had the privilidge of watching him every game this last season and there was difference except in homeruns allowed. I was just throwinfg out an idea and the last time i checked that was LEGAL. so the one who blows up over an idea, i do believe sir...THAT MAKES U THE IDIOT.

and the thing i would like to point out to any NL naysayer is that Santana has DOMINATED the AL for years now!!! The AL, imagine how sick he would be on a good NL team with some run support? The twins, my hometown team as they are, did not give him run support making him look worse, and he had an unrealiable 4 sp's behind him meaning he had to out much more on his shoulders. I hope he goes to the NL and DOMINATES them to a hall of fame career finish.

"Patsfanatic"...what a dumb trade idea. Yeah, trade away a future 20 game winner (who will stay healthy) who is cheap, a solid hitting young outfielder who is cheap, and the most dominating reliever in the NL (he is) for a guy who is going to cost $25 million a year for 7 years and whose velocity dropped significantly during the second half of the season. "

Well, that offer isnt better then any of the offers on the table, and those havent gotten it done yet. I agree with the idea of leave Santana alone, he is too much money, the Cubs will be depleted at the lower levels if they make that deal, because the Mets are in the same boat. But too call him an idiot for proposing too much on a trade that would probably not get the job done anyway is silly. You would be better off just explaining that you would rather keep your prospects, and your young MLB talent and go to war. That is how I feel also but you have to respect the people who are willing to give up everything for Santana because thats their opinion, just like how we have our opinion. I agree that the general idea of gutting your system, for one year of service and handing out the biggest contract ever (for a pitcher) to a guy who isnt even on the open market is pretty idiotic. But assuming that you are willing to take that risk the package he proposed wasnt really "idiotic" at all. I think you overeacted a little bit. Fair?

This is complete and utter baloney.

The Cubs do NOT have what it takes to acquire Erik Bedard. Plain and simple.

Stack prospects as high as you want, but the Cubs prospects can't get it done.

ANY trade of Bedard will include two impact players who are ready to play NOW.

Even a trade starting with Pie and Hill is just a beginning for Bedard ONLY.

File this rumor under B for bs.

The proposed three way deal two years ago was:

Orioles get Milledge+prospects

Mets get Oswalt

Astros get Tejada

Supposedly Angelos squashed the deal at the last second. As a Mets fan, that really hurt. Instead of getting Oswalt, we traded Milledge for a platoon outfielder and a backup catcher.

Nothing worse than selling low. I hoped Minaya would figure that out by now too.

I remember it as a Astros-Rangers-Orioles trade...

..but what do I know? I'm just an unfrozen caveman lawyer.

Is Bedard worth much more than Santana?

As we all know they teams going after him are giving up one plus prospect and a bunch of jetsam.

The new Tejada Deal was pretty much a straight salary dump. But I think they got a decent prospect or two as well.

Kubatko said that having spoken with MacPhail this 7 for 2 rumor was rumor

sorry spellcheck got me

Take 2:

With a Player to be named later how long can later be? Could it be a week after the next draft? Is that legal? If so then Cubs give:

1. Pie
2. Gallagher
3. Patterson
4. Cedeno
5. Veal or Hart
6. Marshall
7. Player to be named... IE Vitters, Donaldson, or anyone on a list, but they don’t have to choose that player until the next year.

8. Since we are playing... Angelos Favorite... CASH Considerations. :-)

Since they are "rebuilding" they could throw in the towel in on this season and play the kid-os and let them get some experience. Just like the 99 Twins did. It kind of worked out well for them.

However considering what they want for just Roberts, which I find absurd anyway, this is all moot.

One thing about McPhail, he doesn't take risks and thus doesn't get taken in many deals. If he thought enough of the players to bring it to Angelos, then it must certainly have been a good deal for the Orioles. Whatever the reason Angelos turned it down: not getting a 'name' player or prospect to help sell tickets, he overvalues his players as much as the O's fans, or maybe it's just his man crush on Brian Roberts. Whatever the reason was, it certainly isn't Angelos eye for talent and baseball savvy. If the O's weren't getting enough baseball talent in return, McPhail would have turned it down before it even got to Angelos. The fact that Angelos turned it down means it was for something other than pure baseball reasons.

nrmax,
The guy has a point. The Milledge trade was awful. Yes, he did an excellent job at netting us O.P. and Maine, but lets be real here, he F-uped trading Lastings. Moreover, we will be paying for it every time we play the Nats. If we had had Lastings, trading away F-Mart and Gomez wouldn't be so painful.

i've seen rich hill pitch, he's very good and talented, but i think erick bedard's curveball is better

Whats embarrasing is your grammar and whatnot. You have your opinion. My opinion is that one year of Johan Santana is not enough for F-Mart alone, let alone 4 more guys. No thank you.

And no, how many dominicans in your area can chase down a fly ball? I am just dying to know? What about Venezuelans, or Koreans?

Do you know how many tall black guys I am friends with that can dunk a basketball, or block a shot? How about how many latinos that live near me that are just ridiculous soccer players. Does it matter?

Playwright "I think this a bit irresponsible, Tim."

You'll notice when Tim has a story that doesn't check out, the headline ends with a Question Mark, just like this one does.

1. Felix Pie/ Tyler Colvin
2. Sean Gallagher
3. Sean Marshall
4. Eric Patterson
5. Donnie Veal
6. Ronny Cedeno
7. Kevin Hart/ Matt Murton

I' am kinda getting sick of hearing on and off talks beween Cubs and O's I say Hendry gives 4 people and if the O's don't like it then say good bye and thanks for wasteing my time.
If the Cubs are really looking for a middle infielder why don't they trade for Jhonny Peralta it would take less people to get him and he's 6 like 6 years younger then Roberts. For Peralta you will only probably have to trade the following.

Matt Murton, Sean Marshall and possibly 2 minor leaguers. I SAY DO IT

you make me embarrassed to be a cubs fan.

I'm a big O's fan and would never combine Bedard & Roberts in a trade together. They won't receive as much selling separate, although, I guess taking a lot of players from 1 farm system rather than multiple wouldn't be a bad gimmick.

I hate Angelos! We would have the best team in the NL by far, even if the Mets got Santana. We could win the world seris in 2008. The drought would be over! This sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh Earl. You're getting a little senile. Remember when you used to value pitchers who were tough and would last deep into games...pitchers that could pitch on 3 days rest when you needed them? Pitchers like Zambrano? Bedard can't even pitch 200 innings in a season, can't win more than 15 games...you've truly lost your mind. Bedard's a good pitcher, but you can't build you staff around a guy who can't complete a full season. Earl, you used to know better than that. What brought you to this lowly state?

"I hate Angelos! We would have the best team in the NL by far, even if the Mets got Santana. We could win the world seris in 2008. The drought would be over! This sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thats the problem with fans. It isnt MLB the Show 08. You cant trade every player in your lower levels and have a ML heavy team. It wont work. If you make a deal like that, then you have to gamble that Lee, A-Ram, Soriano, Fuk-U, Roberts, Bedard, Z, Hill all stay healthy for the entire season, if one of those guys missed extended time, the cubs would be up shits creek. You always have to have depthin the minors. If one of those guys were to go down, you not only have no replacement for him internally, but you have no trade chips either. Its a risky proposition.

Cubs fans are gonna love it when Erika Bedard takes herself out of games because "she's tired from running the bases" like she did in an interleauge game against the gnats earlier in the season. Can you imagine the reaction from Lou Pineilla after Erika tells him that at the mound? I hope the trade goes down just so I can see the reaction from sweet lou after hearing that from good ol erika

Actually crunchy, Bedard had a slight oblique injury with about 4 weeks to go in the season. That has nothing to do with his mental makeup, it has everything to do with the team telling him he would not pitch anymore in the season.

If you want to know about mental makeup, go look at his stats for last year. I believe for most of the year he lead the Majors in k's and consistently shut down all comers in the second half of the season.

Right now, Bedard is one of the top 3 left-handed SP's in the game.

I am an O's fan and I seriously question his make up. With that elecrtic stuff he has, he finally pitched his first CG this past season. Coincidentally,he pitched it soon after he was criticized for taking himself out of the gnats game (BTW, the o's were leading the game when he left because he was "tired from running the bases" but eventually lost)

AS for his high K rate, he may be doing his team a disservice going for K's all the time. Obvioiusly, it prevents him from working as deep into the games that he could if he pitched more to contact.
Its not like the O's have had a decent bullpen since the clnton administration or anything

He's a stat whore at the detriment ot the team. I can't wait til he's dealt for prospects; there's nothing worth than a heartless athlete

The trade is taking so long because McPhail wants certain pieces for Roberts and obviously no one has offered him what he is looking for. I am glad McPhail hasnt given in and just traded away his 2 best trading chips for the sake of making a trade.

As far as Bedard putting his stats ahead of the team, I dont think you can make that assumption because he has not played on a winning team to show that he cares about winning more than his stats.

As for the comparison to Santana, if I am a GM I am definitly calling the Orioles over the Twins because of two reasons: 1) Bedard is under team control for 2 full seasons vs Santana's 1 season. 2) If you get Santana then you have to give him a huge contract for the trade to be worth anything and giving up 4-5 great prospects doesnt make sense when you have to sign the player you are getting in the trade to a $150 mil. contract.

Well, if Bedard needs to be on a winning team to put in the extra effort then it says a lot about him. It reminds me of our own Mark Prior, who wore out his welcome - along with his arm - here in Chicago with his need to be coddled. Guys who can't, or won't, pitch deep into games or late into the season aren't #1 starters. Period. I don't care what their stuff says. If I'm going to give up the farm, I'd rather have one year of Santana, because you know he's going to be there at the end when you need him. He's already proven that in Minnesota. Bedard has yet to prove that he's anything but a very talented pitcher.

I don't think the Cubs have enough for both Bedard and Roberts, but no one mentions the fact that the Orioles are without Chris Ray all season and who knows how he will come back. The reason all of the talks have stalled with the O's probably has to do with the O's wanting Marmol. Hendry better not include Marmol in any deal that does not involve Bedard. I like Bedard, but is the upgrade over Hill (who would probably also be included) worth your best prospects and Marmol? Not sure. MacPhail likes all of his old prospects from his Cubs days...that may come into play.

And to your other post,

“If the Cubs are really looking for a middle infielder why don't they trade for Jhonny Peralta it would take less people to get him and he's 6 like 6 years younger then Roberts. For Peralta you will only probably have to trade the following. Matt Murton, Sean Marshall and possibly 2 minor leaguers. I SAY DO IT”

AGAIN; THE INDIANS ARE NOT GOING TO TRADE PERALTA! Cubs fans really have to stop saying his name! Why in the world would they trade him? Top-Fielding, Plus-Hitting 26YO SS on the team which tied for the best record in baseball, yet you think they will just trade him for nothing that will help the club??? Why would Cleveland hurt their team just to get players they don’t even want? Do you see how moronic that sounds? Looks, the only possible way it happens is if the Indians get Roberts ~ and even then its just a “maybe they trade Peralta” because he would probably become their 3B…

But we will indulge your fantasy for a second… IF the Tribe was to somehow trade Peralta, your Murton/Marshall/2-MiLers package is a joke! Marshall would be the Indians #8 SP ~ ie will never have a job with the Indians unless it was maybe in bullpen. Murton would be #10 on the OF/1B/DH depth chart ~ ie, Murton would never have a job with the Indians. Neither of those two players would ever be anywhere near a return for the Indians, neither player is even good enough to be guaranteed a spot in AAA for the Tribe… Murton/Marshall are the types of players the Indians would possibly have to waive to make room on the 40M roster for someone with a future with Cleveland (ala guys like Guthrie, Phillips, F.Cabrera, etc), not the types of players they would be trading something valuable for…

Dark,

From what I understand neither Sea or Cin has offered:

"Now, the package for Bedard alone would have to be better than:
Sea ~ Adam Jones, George Sherrill and one of Clement/Morrow/Triunfel
Cin ~ Homer Bailey, Joey Votto and Johnny Cueto"

I don't know what they have offered but from what I have read the Reds flat out refuse to trade Bailey, much like the Cubs and Hill. I think that Bailey may be in the rotations like Hill. I think I have read the M's havent offered Jones yet either, but I am not sure about that.

So that being said I am guessing, just guessing the Cubs offer has been the best so far. And we are even speculating on whos been in it. So far its a case of he said he said.

I agree that if its a straight trade for just Bedard the offers rumored from the Reds/M's are better, (due to the hill factor) but I can't say that they have been actually offered.

Get over it, Orioles fans...the Cubs ARE NOT going to trade Rich Hill. He's too big of a part of our team's future. Our team is FINE without Roberts and Bedard, so we're not going to make a trade just to make a trade.

Crunchy,

Huh? Do you even know who Peralta is? You mention errors and compare the total of them of them when Peralta had 452 Attempts at SS to a guy with 260 (Theriot)? Are you new to following baseball?

Look, Peralta had a 4.61 RFg (LgAvg is 3.97) and 4.68 RF9 (LgAvg 4.47). Last year? 4.72 RFg (LgAvg is 4.02) and 4.90 RF9 (LgAvg 4.49) Theriot? RFg 3.57 (LgAvg 4.00) and RF9 4.04 (LgAvg 4.44).

Humm… Peralta +.64 (07) & +.70 (06) RFg and +.21 (07) & +.41 (06) RF9 vs Theriot -.43 RFg and -.40 RF9

Yeah, see your point there…

Peralta .340 OBP ~ good enough for 4th among regular Cubs last year. Oh, but its quite a difference between playing in the AL-C and NL-W though! His OBP would have been about .347 in Chicago last year based off the LgAvg’s of the two conditions. His line completely spread out over Chicagos conditions ~ .282/.347/.445/792.

Yeah, see how the Cubs wouldn’t want that either…

It is Moot because the Indians would never trade him; but don’t go making stuff up to try to prove a point…

Darkstar, I don't think you've actually PLAYED the game at all. Are you Oglivie from the Bad
News Bears? Theriot's a nice utility guy right now and an upgrade would be nice, but NOT Peralta. And the range factor has a lot to do with Theriot playing a lot less innings at SS and the Cubs employing 5 flyball/strikeout pitchers in their rotation. But Peralta isn't what the Cubs want despite your number crunching. We don't need another guy swinging for the fences and whiffing with a man on 3rd and less than two outs. Numbers that translate for one league to another? You can predict what a guy is going to do based on past trends? I Remembered an old post where you predict wins contributed by a player! It's nonsense. If you want to play strat-o-matic or a computer simulated game, I'm sure you'd be a star. But the actual game is on the field. I've played with guys who have put up superficial numbers but were a detriment to the team. Building a team isn't about finding the 8 guys with the best xyz statistic because then you might as well have robots manage games. It's about finding pieces and personalities that fit together, guys who play are willing to play different roles. Any one who's run a successful business can tell you that as well. Theriot isn't a star right now. In fact, his numbers are a lot like the pre-steroid numbers of Brian Roberts. (Consult your stat book for a comparison of the 2003 Roberts with the 2007 Theriot). Maybe the Cubs should get Theriot on the juice. Anyway, your formulaic way of evaluating players and building teams isn't the real world. These obscure stats may help understand the impact of a player to a point, but it's only a slice, a snapshot of the game. There's a lot more to the game than what you can learn from behind a computer.

“A .340 OBP and 146 K.s...from a SS???? More than double the number of errors as our current SS? No thanks.”

“These obscure stats may help understand the impact of a player to a point, but it's only a slice, a snapshot of the game”

Humm… ***rolls eyes***

Yeah, go on assuming that I haven’t played the game or that people shouldn’t put weight on things like stats and percentages/odds/factors when trying to determine one players value over anothers. You probably only have about 100% of the sport and 90+% of the fans to convince of this theory you propose where a players smile and willingness to play anywhere to actually find a way to crack the lineup with his sub-par production is more valuable than a player that won a job and provided plus performance in full-time duty from the same possition…

Also, if you don’t like Peralta you will need to really tear into Hartely for the Greene idea…

The simple math here rests on the failed offers by Seattle and the Reds. As, DarkStar correctly mentions, if those packages weren't enuff to get Bedard for the Reds or Ms, then you have to ask, what do the Cubs have to offer to better those previous offers? Secondly, if you want to throw in Roberts as well, then what else would the Cubs have to throw in on top of that? At that point it pretty much makes a possible trade for both Bedard and Roberts totally untenable for the Cubs.

Should the Cubs expect some kind of discount because they are packaged together? If one of those guys were albatross contract guys with blemishes/issues/age/lack of interest then maybe the Cubs could command a discount in such a trade, but that's just not the case. Both are quality players who each have a number of interested teams. Either can bring back solid talent, so what incentive do the Orioles have in trading both together if it just splits their respective values? Too much wishful thinking here is making some Cubs fans irrational. We can go back and forth arguing the finer points of why Bedard or Roberts is not worth as much as this or that but the bottomline is that both are worth something. Afterall Cubs fans wouldn't be here if they weren't.

Let me state, as I have been talking about the hypothetical upgrades at SS, Theriot is one of my favorite players and I totally agree to a very large degree with Crunchy. I questioned why everyone was down on Theriot at the end of the year and was satisfied with him as the starting SS in 2008. He plays like the old-school SS--solid defense, bat control, speed, hustle, and leadership. I think everyone falls in love with the A-Rod type of players who have revolutionized the position. Now everyone is looking for someone more like him...

If you put Greene at SS, you would have three of the four infielders playing GG type defense, and that would make our pitchers even better. Thats a huge plus, and what Hendry was TRYING to do last year with Izturis, it just so happens that he didn't realize that Izturis defense has crumbled from what it used to be.

I thought about Michael Young as well, however, he's just an average defensive SS. He doesn't display great range, according to his zone rating, and is good for close to 20 errors a year.

Offensively, he reminds me alot like Tony Gwynn--but at SS. He hits .300 + every year and his OBP is .360-.380 consistently. His Ks are unusually high for his rate of contact (90-100Ks). Theriot had 50Ks and 537 AB.

I would bet that we would have to overspend to get Young. You would definately have to kiss at least 2 quality pitchers goodbye. However, I'm sure they'd want a #3 type starter in exchange for him at the least.

“darkstar, I'm not sure I understand your argument”
…I don’t really have an argument since there really isnt anything to argue over. Crunchy stated Peralta had 2X the errors (not mentioned was the fact that it was in 2X the chances and he covers much more ground leading to more errors still…) and a low OBP (which was actually middle-pack of all SS and much higher than Theriot in a less hitter friendly environment) ~ I just questioned the logic behind such a questionable statement/argument trying to be made. I agree with your “role” thing, but not sure if it applies too much to this specific situation because Theriot brings such little value with the bat and below average value with the glove. He is more suited to the utility guy you claim he should probably be, hence the reason I don’t understand the argument being made on the other side… I only mentioned you and your stating Greene because he has a much worse BB/K rate, dismal OBP (.291 vs LgAvg .330 in SD) and history of being injured ~ if Crunchy is going to complain about Peralta then Greene would have to be completely destroyed.

“What I'm saying is, if you were to pick (all things equal), I'd pick Peralta, too.”
…See, that’s the part I couldn’t understand Crunchy arguing against and why I questioned him…

“Question is, is he on the block and what will it take to get him?”
…He’s about as untouchable as a player gets. The only way the Indians trade him is if they are getting an AS SS or 2B in return ~ and even then they probably move him to 3B since the teams longterm 3B situation is a question. Peralta being traded for the 2008 season is probably about as likely as Soriano or A.Ramirez being dealt… What would it take to get him? The Cubs have nothing in the positions the Indians would want (well, Cedeno who is not better than internal options though) ~ if the Indians did get say Roberts and were somehow willing to deal Peralta, it would probably center around Marmol from Chicago.

“I do know that the Cubs were struggling until Theriot was inserted permanently in the lineup”
…Actually, that’s an incorrect statement. Theriot was a starter for pretty much the entire year ~ hence the 148G and 600 PA (I belive PA is 3rd highest on team). After the first 10 or so games, he was pretty much always in the lineup between 2B, SS or 3B. The events leading to the team winning were Izturis being removed from lineup and DeRosa becoming pretty much full-time 2B instead ~ oh and Marmol being called up…

Gotta jet, try to respond to more later…

PS, Bedard is not a #3 pitcher Milburn ~ he’s an Ace… That package doesn’t even get the phone answered on Bedard! You should read the posts above…

I'm scared baltimore is waiting too long on this cubs will move on soon we have to get moving now every day we wait is another day of mediocraty.