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Erik Bedard Rumors: Tuesday

UPDATE, 1-29-08 at 3:45pm: The Baltimore Sun's Roch Kubatko weighs in on a radio rumor going around.  The radio rumor says that the O's are holding up the deal over a possible degenerative hip condition with Adam Jones.  Kubatko could only confirm that the Orioles "became concerned with something related to Jones."

FROM 1-29-08 at 7:50am:

Why can't all megadeals be as simple as Detroit's Miguel Cabrera acquisition?  The Erik Bedard to Seattle has become a full-blown mess.  As always, MLBTradeRumors.com has the latest.

Ken Rosenthal expounds on three theories as to why Orioles owner Peter Angelos may be holding up the deal.  Maybe he still wants to sign Bedard to an extension.  Maybe he's mad about Adam Jones leaking the deal to the Venezuelan press.  Or maybe he just wants more/different players than Andy MacPhail negotiated.  Or my own theory - maybe he was just busy Monday with a family matter, as has been suggested, and nothing's wrong.

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If nothing was wrong, the trade would be completed. Why should Angelos have to approve of any trade? Isn't that what a GM is supposed to do?

Angelos is such a pain. why doesnt he approve of the deal by the GM and why is he wasting everybodys time and not letting this deal through? i agree, isnt that the gms job anyway? is he now owner and GM?

That's one of the reasons why no ball club actually wants to deal with the Orioles. It's always a nightmare.

Angelos has already messed up this deal by not allowing MacPhail to negotiate within the division. Even if he didnt trade Bedard to the Yankees or Red Sox theres no way they wouldnt be interested (especially the Yankees) - even if just to push the Twins out of limbo - and their interest may have pushed the Mariners into a deal that even he cant refuse.

"FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal believes the Orioles may be upset enough about Adam Jones' comments on the deal to call off the Erik Bedard trade or at least seek additional compensation."

And to think MLB doesn't want to allow Mark Cuban to be an owner yet they let complete morons like Angelos own a team? What a joke. If the Orioles don't make the proposed deal because a kid spoke the truth (Adam Jones) then Andy McFail should quit his job and tell Angelos to go to hell.

Why should Angelos have a say in the trade? Do you really need to ask that? Until the GM is paying the players out of his pocket every owner approves every trade.. most may just give it a quick glance and trust the man they put into the GM position but you cannot tell me that an owner doesn't have to give the greenlight for a trade to happen. GM comes to owner and says this is good deal we need to make it - most owners say ok but still has to be brought to the owner. Angelos is overly active in his role in trades but to say he should have no say in it is absurd.

" Angelos is overly active in his role in trades but to say he should have no say in it is absurd."

Of course an owner should have some input in trades that involve MONEY issues. But a GM is hired to do a job because he is supposedly qualified. If an owner is going to be as annoying as Angelos has always been then he may as well just do the job himself. He should really have NO SAY in the talent a GM is trying to acquire when rebuilding a franchise. McFail is slashing payroll and adding talent for the future. Either Angelos wants to go in this direction or he doesn't. But to intefere with McFail after Angelos has obviously given his approval to rebuild is ludicrous!

"Maybe he's mad about Adam Jones leaking the deal to the Venezuelan press."

That is stupid...this trade proposal has been in the media for weeks, why would that be so upsetting that something everyone knows was being discussed for so long was about to be consumated.

Sqweek - I understand your point but push comes to shove every transaction affects( effects? - I suck at grammar my apologies)Angelos bottom line either for good or for bad and thus should have final say. The problem with angelos is that he tends to constantly change his mind or is hesitant in his decisions. He should just rubberstamp any move Macphail makes but that is different than not being giving the right to make such decisions... IMO

"I understand your point but push comes to shove every transaction affects( effects? - I suck at grammar my apologies)Angelos bottom line either for good or for bad and thus should have final say."

Can't agree with that. He's obviously already given the go ahead to rebuild. Thus he's given the go ahead to trade Bedard and Roberts and any other high contracts. Meaning he is looking to slash payroll. Once he's made that decision his bottom line has already been effected. At that point it makes no sense for hin to interfere with his GM on what talent he gets in return UNLESS it is an obvious mistake.

touchmymonkey. All fair points, but this case is different, cause' Angelos has a history of being a greedy annoying little bastard and killing deal at the last second all the time. I agree, that the owner ultimately has the final say on any big decision that is made, but you have to draw a line somehwere. Like others have said, why even hire a GM? You could see if it was over a big contract and he didnt want to pay up, but when you decide to rebuild, I dont think you can kill a deal because you dont like the return. When you appoint a GM thats what you are paying him to do.

Yea sqweeek, to kill a deal simply because you think it is a bad deal, not because of money or anything like that, it kind of is a public slap in the face to MacPhail. IMO either let him do his job or find somebody new. Or appoint yourself GM and run the show yourself.

My guess is that Angelos thinks George (and now Hank) Steinbrenner is cool and wants to be like him by trumping up everything he can at every opportunity, and holding the constant carrot in front of the media. "See? I can play in the big boy sandbox too!"

I think we all agree that once Angelos says "rebuild for the future using your best judgement" then he should simply rubberstamp anything the GM does ... guess I am just hung up on the technicality of its the owners perogative to approve/disapprove deals even if it means looking stupid and contradiciting previous marching orders. Should Angelos be doing what he is doing... absolutely not and honestly if he kills the deal I would expect Macphail to walk away since it is obvious that Angelos won't let him run team the way he was promised... but cannot take away Angelos right to kill deal.. he is to MLB what Al Davis is to NFL.
That said I have already been bitched at 2x at work for being here so I am off until evening - all good points Sqweek & nrmax - i look forward to your posts when cubs get roberts lol

You guys love to go off on a guy after a reporter speculating on Angelos as one of the "possibilities" why this is held up. Like I said before, let the man veto it first before you guys criticize it. If/when this deal is done, you guys will have to disappear or look foolish for jumping the guns on your agendas. I'm not supporting Angelos at all. I am just saying allow a person to make the mistake before you get upset by it. It makes no sense to be upset of a mistake yet to be made.

Yeah, but I have already seen this movie. He will nix the deal in due time. In due time, my friend.

I agree with basemonkey. Rosethal wrote a good article and brought up good points. But he's 100% speculatating as to what is going on. Just wait and see before you pass judgment.

"You guys love to go off on a guy after a reporter speculating on Angelos as one of the "possibilities" why this is held up."

Sorry. But Angelos has built up enough of a history already for us to jump all over him on speculation of another boneheaded move on his part. No need for us to wait to find out if it is true or not. That really doesn't matter. The fact remains that Angelos is an idiot.....plain and simple.

True. Though this is slightly different in the sense that it's MacPhail's first dance. As Rosenthal mentions it is a litmus test of how much authority MacPhail really has. MacPhail is by far the most industry-wide respected guy the Os have had in a longtime. He's no sicophant to Angelos. Baltimore has bottomed out after last season. Is it enough for even Angelos to acknowledge that he has to change his ways? If he does veto it, then by all means, criticize him for it. Folks from a distance carry no risk; allow the guy to make his own mistake first.

At this point I think the only ones who have enough of a stake to criticize Angelos over a mistake yet to be made are generally the guys who have a stake, the guys who have an agenda of hating out of control owners. I'm not condoning or supporting owners like Cuban, Steinbrenner, Huizenga, Dan Snyder, Angelos at all. And, I understand, fairly or not, why they all might get colored by the same broad brush. But I also acknowledge, at this point in the game, that agenda has nothing to do wityh this trade. The trade is concerning the Ms and Os, Bedard and Jones, MacPhail and Bavaski. To this point it has nothing to do Peter Angelos. It could get there, but not yet.

This is all conjecture and insinuation.

Remember, MacPhail is stating that NO DEAL IS IN PLACE.

Don't you think that if Angelos did hold up the deal that it would have a quick effect on MacPhail? He wanted full authority to make changes and said that was granted by Angelos.

This is news reporters trying to stir the pot. Even IF Bavasi, MacPhail, Jones, Bedard, and Angelos said today that this is all false, news reporters would claim otherwise. WITHOUT PROOF.

Odd that Bedard's agent says he has heard nothing of a deal.

"Why can't all megadeals be as simple as Detroit's Miguel Cabrera acquisition?"

Amen. I'll be so glad when half of the posts on MLBTR aren't Santana and Bedard updates. I mean, you gotta do it (and I'm glad you do, Tim) since they're the big deals, but I'll be happy to see these deals done.

I feel like part of this is an attempt by Angelos to get some attention, so all eyes are on his team for a little while.

Egads! Waiting on these Johan and Bedard talks is like watching my girlfriend decide what to wear tomorrow.

This trade rumor has managed to throw more gasoline on a fire that was thought to have already reached it's pinnacle. The majority of O's fans (from what I've seen/heard) have exhausted themselves over this particular trade. It's not a question of whether they feel the trade is good or not. The primiary problem is that everyone was told (with the aquisition of MacPhail) that Angelos' hands were out of management issues from this point forward. Now it seems (regardless of what rumor you believe) that Angelos continues his influence over trades.

Even if the deal was postponed because of family requirements yesterday, it's only further evidence that Macphail's power is limited. If this is truely the case, Baltimore takes another two steps backward after appearing to take a step forward after last season.

Hypothetically speaking, is it not possible that PA gets so upset about Jones leaking stuff to the press that he tells McPhail to rework the deal to include Balentien instead with a little more pitching going to Baltimore in return?!

Say instead of Jones, Sherrill, Tillman, and lower prospect... He asks for Balentien, Sherrill, Tillman, Butler, and Mickolio?! Just a thought, but PA seems to be a little too much of a loose cannon for the to not be a possibility, right?! I mean Balentien was the 37th best pprospect in all of baseball compared to Jones' top 10 finish, so it's not like adding two highly ranked pitchers and dropping the OF'er quality is a huge stretch!

What if Adam Jones having a big mouth was the key to us acquiring Bedard and not having to give up Adam Jones?! No one else wants to give up their top OF prospect and no one else has a second prospect that is as highly regarded as Balentien! It would still be the best deal on the table I'm sure!

I just wanted to add one thing for the Angelos bashers. Remember back at the beginning of the offseason when he flat out said that Bedard and Roberts are the two guys that the team is reluctant to trade? Some 200+ players under team control, and 2 players the Owner doesnt want to see go…

Now, said 2 players are the two which people instantly focus on and try to obtain ~ does that change the fact that they are the two he doesnt want to deal? He said he would really need to be blown away; he said that it clearly has to be in the teams best interest going forward. He forewarned that it would be very difficult to obtain either Bedard or Roberts... So why are people surprised when it is infact difficult to obtain Bedard or Roberts?

Going off on Angelos right now seems to be like complaining you didn’t grow up to be the starting Rightfielder for the RedSox ~ you knew the odds were extremely slim, so what gives? The O’s still have 2 years to work out an extension with him or trade him for prospects. He doesn’t want to lose him. Just because fans and the media seem to insist he has to make a move, he doesn’t ~ and to attack him for doing what he told us he would seems flat-out foolish… Then, you don’t even know if he did anything right now anyway!!! (its just speculative as well)

When everything is said and done, are you sure its Angelos who is really out of line here?

Angelos can do what he wants. However, why should he be immune to criticism? He is certainly allowed to do things he does because he is the owner, but similarly, people are allowed to air their grievances. I am pretty sure he doesn’t mind people venting on this site about the laundry list of mistakes he has made, why should you?

Maybe he will come out and vindicate himself and make everyone look stupid while proving MacPhail is allowed to run this team as he sees fit. However, as someone stated before, we have all seen this movie before and we are pretty sure we know how it ends. If MacPhail thinks trading Bedard for Jones, Tillman, Sherrill, etc. is a good thing, I would tend to side with him since he is a highly regarded baseball mind. Angelos, while a highly successful and highly regarded as a lawyer, is not a highly regarded baseball mind and it is not hard to understand why people get frustrated when he keeps setting this franchise back.

Bedard will be long gone when this team is good again as he already stated he wanted to do one year deals. Jones is going to be star and the other guys are not exactly throw ins. This would be a good thing for the O's.

I think some of these speculators need to tame the activity. It's obvious to me that some people are a) overthinking this, and b) assuming that any hold-up is PA-related.

I'm not sure there's a pressing need to get this done ASAP, on either side. There are a million plausible reasons why this is delayed - lining up other subsequent deals, multiple options from the M's, simply taking their time on a major transaction, etc. I dislike PA as much as the next guy, but patience is probably in order.

Clearly, it has been mishandled a bit, however, and PA is open to the sort of criticism he's receiving.

I am just seeing a bunch of guys, waiting in anticipation of something happening, who want to talk about something, but because of a lack of news, they basically rely on an old standby topic at the slightest speculation by a reporter thinking out loud, that is: Angelos is a meddling owner. Well, I've heard it before and there's no news here because nothing is happened.

If Angelos nixes this deal then fine. Let's talk. Though talking about it now sounds like a girl coming to your 2nd date wearing a wedding dress.

basemonkey, you seem to be obsessed with women's clothes today. lol

Haha. This morning was one of "those" mornings with my girlfriend. All of the fellas with gals will know what I mean. I guess it's just coloring my thoughts all day long. Sorry. Haha.

“Angelos can do what he wants. However, why should he be immune to criticism? He is certainly allowed to do things he does because he is the owner, but similarly, people are allowed to air their grievances.”

…But see, that’s the thing! What are people really complaining or criticizing him for? The fact that he *may have possibly* turned down this deal? The fact that he has yet to do what he said he probably wouldn’t anyway? The simple fact that he said he didn’t want to do something to begin with? I mean, where is the realistic reason to complain or criticize him?

I’m sorry if people expect a deal to take place, but he told you not to... I’m sorry if you don’t want to hear the rumors over the possibilities of a deal taking place, but that has nothing to do with him… I’m sorry if you feel whatever package should be good enough, but he told you its not about what is “good enough”! Besides, that would be solely within you…

If there was a real, realistic reason to bash the guy; feel free… But what are people complaining about here? Speculation and what they want, while ignoring what they know. If people want to complain about something, maybe they should complain about the media leading them to believe something was ever going to easily get done in the first place. Or if people really want to complain about something prevalent here, complain about their gullibility or ignoring the facts while holding onto said visions of a trade.

Lastly, who is more likely to be with the team longterm, Angelos or McPhail? When it comes down to the 2 players that Angelos said he didn’t want to trade, don’t you think MacPhails feelings are reasonably put on the back-burner? If I tell an employee “you can do anything but remove these two objects”, that employee should expect to leave said two objects alone… Trying to force a way to get rid of said two objects actually reflects negatively on the employee, not the employer…

> I just wanted to add one thing for the Angelos bashers. Remember back at the beginning of the offseason when he flat out said that Bedard and Roberts are the two guys that the team is reluctant to trade?

I don't remember that being said. And that's probably because any such list would have Nick Markakis' name at the top.

I love how there are so many people out there with so much contempt for Peter Angelos. Although he does get too involved in team decisions, he really does mean well and all his actions are what he thinks are in the best interest of the team. Not to mention, most of the trades he nixed in the past, I can honestly say. . . THANK GOD!!! He nixed way more bad trades then good trades.

Now I know by doing this he hand cuffs his GM's and makes there job more difficult, but this complete contempt for him (from fans of other teams) is kind of uncalled for.

Go spend your time hating those cheating Patriots. . .

Yeh, DarkStar, I think you hint at what I am really saying. The media has to write news everyday no matter what, even if there isn't really newsworthy items that day. They don't have the luxury to not deliver a paper/column/etc. In that event sometimes they have to put together facts and create interest by other means. Sometimes it means speculation through implication.

Obviously Angelos as an overbearing meddling owner is a sexier story than another installment of "No News Bedard/Johan." In the end choose for yourself what you do. To me the question here is either be led by the media, or, think for yourself. There is no news here.

You have to be out of your damn mind if you think that Angelos doesn't deserve critisism. The man hasn't made a smart baseball decision since coming to the Orioles. Sure, he spends money on "crafty" veterans in the offseason. Sure, he is in the one of (if not) the toughest divisions baseball. But the man is the primary reason for the decline of baseball in Baltimore (see relationship with Cal Ripken Jr, failure to sign draft picks, refusal to surround self with "baseball" people, etc...). Of course, owners have the right to run their teams as they see fit. However, just like any other company, when things don't go well the first person(s) to blame are those at the top.

All of this begs the question: who is a bigger d0uche, Hank or Peter?

INABILITY TO SIGN DRAFT PICKS:
I think the Os signed every draft pick they drafted except draft bust, Wade Townsend. Just last year they set a franchise record in signing a Boras client, Wieters, at ~8M signing bonus (?). Before that I believe Loewen and then Markakis got the high mark in bonus money.

CAL/ANGELOS RELATIONS:
Cal supposedly has a pretty good relationship with Peter Angelos. Peter has said that when he does sell the team he's gonna sell it to Cal. Secondly, Cal is still heavily involved with the organization by founding and daily running of the Os short-season team, the Aberdeen Ironbirds. When it was founded shortly after Cal retired Peter was the one who insisted it be located in Cal's hometown, Aberdeen to honor him.

REFUSAL TO SURROUND HIMSELF WITH BASEBALL PEOPLE:
Pat Gillick, Davey Johnson, Frank Wren, Mike Flanagan, Jim Beattie, Syd Thrift, etc. Every man who took the helm in the dugout or office was either a former player and had experience in running a club. Flanagan was a first time CO. Mazzilli and Perlozzo were a first time managers, though both had had extensive experience in and around baseball at every level. I am not defending Angelos. I am just refuting the news items you are regurgitating from the media. Peter in fact does surround him with plenty of "baseball" men. Sure, you can call into question the quality of those voices, how much authority he gives them, and how well he listens. Though saying that he installs siccophants who haven't been around the game is just inaccurate.

Again I am not saying that Peter is not the cause of the decline of the Os. He surely deserves a lot of blame for the last 10 years. Though I think it's more complicated than just citing the stereotype of a meglomaniacal owner, which I find most outside observers like to do. Arm yourself with the facts and I'm sure we'll both see that it's a combination of Peter, bad luck, bad decisions, bad culture. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

2 things…

1) “But the man is the primary reason for the decline of baseball in Baltimore (see relationship with Cal Ripken Jr, failure to sign draft picks, refusal to surround self with "baseball" people, etc...).”

…Uhh, to “decline”, wouldn’t you actually have to be considered better to begin with? I mean, he bought the team in 1993 ~ the team had finished above 500 in only 3 of the previous 7 years. They would go on to have a near 100W season (for the first time since 1980) only 4 years after he took over though. If anything, it seems he brought success! They did finish 500+ in 4 of his first 5 years before regressing ~ and even with the last years of bad play, the team still is doing about what they were doing 2 years prior to his taking over. I mean, 1988 the team was 54-107 ~ but you are saying he is responsible for some decline in Baltimore because he has finished in the 70-75 win range the last 5 or so years?

Angelos HAS been rebuilding though, and the team is in a much better position today than any other time since Jim Palmer was pitching; you going to complain about that? Interesting…


2) Even if you do want to complain about things he has done in the past, what does that have to do with today? Why would that mean all these random teams fans should come on hear complaining about things he may or may not have even done because they assumed something might take place regarding a player he really wants to keep?


I could give a crap about the O’s, and I definitely don’t care about Angelos; but I certainly don’t get what people are thinking here…

Basemonkey,

I’m glad I’m not alone in questioning what people are thinking here… BTW, your stuff is great reading as welland I hope you don’t mind me throwing out a couple “WTF do you want/WTF are you thinking” posts myself… :)

You're right with arguemnt #1. I was off on the draft pick comment. I meant to refer more to his historical inability to work with agents and GMs. My bad.

"Cal supposedly has a pretty good relationship with Peter Angelos. Peter has said that when he does sell the team he's gonna sell it to Cal. Secondly, Cal is still heavily involved with the organization by founding and daily running of the Os short-season team, the Aberdeen Ironbirds. When it was founded shortly after Cal retired Peter was the one who insisted it be located in Cal's hometown, Aberdeen to honor him."

-This is local politics. Angelos gets along with Cal because he needs to. There is NO possible way for Angelos to successfully run the team without support from The local icon. None.

REFUSAL TO SURROUND HIMSELF WITH BASEBALL PEOPLE:

Ok, my fualt for using a poor choice in words here. You touched on the point I intended to make. ..."How much authority he gives them, and how well he listens." For a man who knows little to nothing about the game of baseball you would think that listening to those that do would be logical.

Bad culture? Baltimore may be a "bad" city but it is definately a baseball-first city. To put any kind of blame on the city or it's people for the teams fall from grace is ridiculous.

And both of you are right about fans ranting. I normally try to stay objective on here but living in the Baltimore area for years now I really have let my hatred for Angelos get the best of me. I'll try to stick to my inside voice from here out...

Angelos has been rebuilding? How you figure? Trading John Maine for Kris Benson is rebuilding? Signing Danys Baez, Jay Payton and Aubrey Huff to ridiculous deals is rebuilding? Rebuilding means you trade away your best players to stock up the farm system and build from the ground up. That is a laugh to say Angelos has been rebuilding. He makes decisions based on his personal feelings about players instead of what is best for the organization. Angelos doesn't care whether the O's are a winning team or not and he has successfully taken "Baltimore" out of the Orioles. Angelos only cares about what he wants instead of what's best for the organization. This is the same guy that traded Curt Schilling and Pete Harnisch for Glenn Davis. Please, the guy is a complete idiot and has been running this team into the ground for the last decade. If you don't trade Bedard and Roberts, then you're not rebuilding, period.

Furthermore, he deserves everything he gets. He has a history of doing this crap and interfering in baseball decisions when he knows nothing about how to make them. He hires baseball people to make those decisions so he can shoot them down and pretty much create a situation where no other team wants to deal with us. That is, until MacPhail came along. We were assured that Angelos would no longer be interfering in baseball decisions and that MacPhail had full control over that. Well, now we're finding out that isn't true and I'll be damned if we are supposed to sit back and wait when anyone from Baltimore has been through this time and time again. Give me a break. He deserves as much crap as people can possibly give him until he proves otherwise and right now, he's proving that he hasn't changed a bit. It doesn't take a genius to see the increasing amount of double-talk surrounding this deal.

We were told he was not going to be involved and it turns out he is and is in fact holding this deal up. Get out of my face with this "give him a chance" crap. He's used the last decade to show us what he is about and how he is. Until he proves otherwise, that is, Bedard and Roberts are traded, we are not rebuilding and Angelos has not changed a bit.

Cubs get:
Miguel Tejada, Erik Bedard
Orioles get:
Mark Prior, Rich Hill, Corey Patterson

Can't believe he nixed that one.

MattyJ,

I am glad to see you are good enough to care to clarify what you originally meant.

By "bad culture" I wasn't referring to Baltimore. Baltimore itself is a great place. What I was referring to really was about the Orioles org culture circa 2000 under Syd Thrift. What we see today is actually trying to correct the longterm effects of bad decision-making and degrading of the baseball culture within the system of that time. A lot of the bad mojo the Os get today is really descriptive of that era. Today actually the Orioles farm system is lightyears ahead of where it was. That bad reputation also helps serve to keep it as one of the most under-rated in baseball. Understandably it's fair to assume that such a bad reputation doesn't get turned around by public perception until the Os bear fruit on the major league level.

Without Dusty Baker, Prior may have been fine and would have been an ace easily. Hill is looking to be an ace quality pitcher too. Bedard was just projection at that point. I'm inclined to believe the only reason he traded Tejada was because of the Mitchell Report and steroid allegations.

The Prior trade was offered before the 06 season. Prior wasn't going to be an ace.

Oh, duh. My fault. Musta been thinking of something else.

Considering what we know now, moving Tejada may not have been such a bad idea after all. At any rate, I would put money on the nixing of that deal being because Angelos loved Miguel Tejada. Even a blind horse finds water sometimes.

Sorry about that mix-up. Prior was done by then.

ROTOWORLD IS REPORTING that Adam Jones may have a degeneratie hip condition which is why the trade is put on hold. wOw! That's the same injury that made Albert Belle retire prematurely. It can be a career-ender eventually if true. Figures. THis soap opera just gets better and better.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=MLB&id=72&line=228420&spln=1

Here's the Sun's reporting of something about the health of Adam Jones:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/roch/blog/2008/01/quick_comment_on_jones.html

The possibility of a hip condition is totally unconfirmed to this point, but, it does sound like the Orioles put the deal on hod and insisted on a physical due to some kind of health condition of Adam's.

If this is true, all of the Angelos bashers, irregardless of Angelos being a good owner or not, looks like they jumped the gun. Stuff like this is the only reason why we should just wait for the facts to come in before we start wasting our time down blind allies.

“If you don't trade Bedard and Roberts, then you're not rebuilding, period”

…Huh? How on earth do you come up with that theory? Rebuilding ~ to focus on prospects and try to build for the future through young promising players. Fire-sale ~ to trade all desirable players for prospects. I’ll give you the fact that he isnt in full fire-sale mode, but how do you figure he isnt rebuilding? Do you know anything about your minor leagues or even the youngsters already on the club? See, youngsters would kind of mean some rebuilding has taken place, don’t ya think? Or you going to argue that the team having promising kids means the O’s haven’t been rebuilding the club?

Then you go on to complain about Angelos trading good young talent away and are saying he should reverse this trend by trading good young talent away… Am I missing something? Yeah, see Bedard and Roberts are both under 30, both are at the top of their respective positions and both will be with the club atleast a couple years and maybe many more ~ but you want them gone for guys who may or may not ever make a difference at the ML level? That would be the indication of Angelos being intelligent according to you, right? But wanting to hold onto the rather young, and about to enter their peak years, Bedard and Roberts = unintelligent? You seem picky as to what you think he should do…

And the rest of that rant was pretty much assumptions and trying to crucify a guy based off perceptions of the past…

wow Basemonkey ~ shocking update! Didnt see that coming...

And yeah, where does that put all the random knee-jerk, finger-pointing bashers now... ***rolls eyes***

Adam Jones reportedly has a degenerative hip condition now? Is that their excuse?

Do you think we can still get them to take a couple Cubs prospects for Bedard?

This one's going to backfire on the Orioles like the Santana trade backfired on the Twins. That is, that they will end up with a crappy package because they are playing God with everyone and jerking everyone around. Baseball is a professional business, and MacPhail and Angelos are showing why the Orioles are such as mess.

If that is their excuse, everyone should just stop talking to them. What do they want, Josh Beckett? Carlos Zambrano? Dan Haren? Just make the trade already. This is freaking ridiculous.

MacFail was probably hired in Baltimore because of his ability to be manipulated while constructing an image of total control to the fanbase...

That being said, if Jones does have a degenerative h

ip condition, why have things progressed as far as they have only to bring this out now? Seems like it would have been present within standard medical files.

*I hate typekey*

No, he's not rebuilding. He has tried to patch things up with guys like Payton, Huff, and Baez and give insane contracts to Gibbons and Melvin Mora. That is not rebuilding. We have very little positional depth which is why the team fell apart in the second half when guys went down with injuries and we had nothing to bring up to put in their place. Tike Redman? Please. The Tejada trade was a start. Bedard and Roberts do not make us a winner because if they did, we would have won in 2007. You don't care about the Orioles or Angelos and you don't follow the Orioles, so it's natural for you to be so forgiving and being willing to dish out "benefit of the doubt"remarks towards Angelos. All that shows is that you haven't had to deal with this for the last decade, nothing more. Baltimore fans have watched him do this to this franchise. And yes, when someone demonstrates a pattern over a decade of employment, it's then expected of them. It's called a pattern of behavior and Angelos has been very consistant in his actions, attitude and motivation behind his decisions. You don't follow the team or care about the Orioles, so just keep it that way.

By the way, a degenerative hip? At 22 years old? I haven't read anything about this anywhere reguarding Adam Jones, not even a whisper. Rosenthal tossed an idea up that the FO was pissed at him for speaking in the media and I'll tell you what, that certainly seems possible. A degenerative hip at 22? I mean if anyone has any information outside of this situation, I'd love to see it. Sure seems like they are just trying to get Jones out of the deal and replace him with a better package that is more pleasing to Angelos. It seems fishy to me, just looks like they are using the out that Jones gave them when he spoke, ERRR was misquoted in the media. I'd bet there is nothing wrong with Jones at all, but we'll see.

Basemonkey, you're right. Unfortunately, modern resources encourage subjective judgements to be made by the general public before the facts are presented.

darkstart1661, regardless of how anyone feels about Angelos or this trade. The point is that he owns/runs the team. When businesses produce poorly the blame (deserving or not) goes to the top. One of the many cons of power and responsibility.

As long as the Orioles sit at the bottom of the AL East, the "random knee-jerk, finger-pointing bashers" will continue to criticize.

Besides, that's what sports fans are supposed to do when thier team is struggling.

Dark has pointed out the park differences between Felix Pie and Adam Jones and I think it obviously puts Jones a hair above Pie; however, a degenerative hip condition would put Pie's value way above Jones' value.

That being said, for the love of Christ, I hope the Cubs are alive in the Bedard sweepstakes.

Actually Sessh, there is a huge difference between the team of today and the team of 5-10 years ago whether you want to see it or not. The O’s of today do have some stop-gaps signed ~ that is to be expected on a rebuilding team! I doubt you will find a single rebuilding club who doesn’t sign a questionable vet for a couple positions ~ its just common place. The difference between todays “rebuilding” and yesteryears “signing vets” though, is that the Vets of today are not there in place of kids ~ they are there with kids and until kids take over.

See, 5-10 years ago the theory was “just always sign the best talent like the Yankees are doing”. The outcome was guys like Will Clark, Eric Davis, Delino DeSields, Albert Belle, Harold Baines, Roberto Alomar, Joe Carter and on and on and on being brought in on huge contracts to ideally become the guy for a position. Today? Its guys signed to deals to provide stop-gap results for the most part. I agree some of the deals he has signed are questionable, but its not really out of line at all. Compare it to the Royals or the Nats of today. Shoot, compare it to the Tigers and Mariners of a couple years ago. Its just what happens…

Like I said, this team is rebuilding and the results of that can be seen in some extremely solid prospects in the system/seeing ML time already. The recent drafts have looked very successful, deals like Tejada have brought more kids and who knows what happens going forward. I would be able to better understand you if the future looked bleak, but not if your theory boils down to “everyone attack him now because we don’t know whats going on but the distant past says its probably ok to do so…”


Matty,

yeah I do realize that ~ but most of the stuff didn’t even come from O’s fans… When its coupled over a complete unknown situation, well… :\

"Dark has pointed out the park differences between Felix Pie and Adam Jones and I think it obviously puts Jones a hair above Pie; however, a degenerative hip condition would put Pie's value way above Jones' value"

...skipping ahead 5 years from today ~ guy who can still field no matter his hitting ability vs a guy who might need a cane…

yeah, guess you can have that one Teetz :D

darkstar1661, to answer your question about Peter Angelos, there are three things that people dislike. I will even take responsibility for these thoughts and claim them as MY DISLIKES in regards to PA... It has little to nothing to do with his trade nixing (if that's even a word!). It's also not about PA's preference or his decisions. It's the way he does business and how it affects the rest of the league and anyone they try to complete trades with...

One thing no one liked was how he waited until after Bavasi and MacPhail have had a running dialogue for two months, before speaking up. Fine for wanting to keep Bedard and having your list of untouchables, everyone has those. However, to wait until a deal is just short of completed to have it cross your desk for approval is crazy. It has been assumed that he could pull Bedard off the market all together in the next couple days.

There is a difference between okaying the package of players versus the possibility that Bavasi and the M's just wasted two months coming to terms with the Orioles on a player that isn't even available! That's more than annoying, it's unacceptable and it shows PA to be derelict in his running of the Orioles! There is a point at which you can say you don’t want to trade Bedard, but it’s not two months into negotiations. Fine if they need to re-work the package of players to make it work, but to negate the discussions on a whim is crap. It is too late to cancel a trade because you are having second thoughts! That ship sailed over a month ago when the hot stove season was cooling down!

It's like walking into a restaurant, telling the waiter what you want to eat and then when they bring out the food, you tell him you were only speaking hypothetically about your desires. Then when he asks to change the order, you tell him it doesn't matter because you've decided to eat at home. You let him know that you want to enjoy the ambiance, drink your water, and that he shouldn’t worry because you'll be gone a half hour before close, which will leave plenty of time to clean up the table!

Just like with serving you have only a certain window when you can maximize your time and only a small number of resources. For a server it is the number of hosts, cooks, and tables in their section, which is no different than the GM who has only a certain number of people who can talk preliminary trades on his behalf and only so many executives who can do the final discussions and sign off on the trades. With Bavasi potentially wasting two months talking to MacPhail he also lost a chance to talk with any other clubs at great length about other player options for 2008.

Another thing Angelos does is micromanage his staff. While he controls and limits their ability to fail, he also prohibits them from exceeding expectations and excelling at their position. This shouldn’t be a gripe for fans or other team executives but it is because he is giving zero leverage to his GM to make decisions. Imagine being a customer at a store and every time you try and negotiate with the salesman he runs to his manager or calls the owner to see if the deal would be approved. That would get old really quick.

Wouldn’t you rather have the associate call the owner and ask if he can even negotiate price and/or terms with you?! Sure you would, because that’s good business! If nothing else, the call keeps you from wasting time hashing out a deal only to find out price and terms are non-negotiable. The owner says you can negotiate with the salesman, but he tells the associate discretely that he would like ________, but definitely no less than ________.

Now the associate knows what the owner considers to be, acceptable terms (T) and price (P) for the item in question and only has to call when T & P fall outside of the given range. Peter Angelos does not allow for this to occur and that is why he is incapable of winning the east and why people are so pissed with him. It’s bad business whether Jones has a degenerative hip condition or not! You just don’t let negotiations go this far before determining the trade status of a player.

For those that like to misquote bloggers, please read this again in Crayonese (don’t bother looking it up, it’s a title I’ve given to pre-operational communication). I’m not talking about him nixing a package of players or telling Bavasi and MacPhail to go back to the drawing board! This is about him second guessing publicly his desire to trade Bedard. You can’t pass out a comment like, “I didn’t know how open he was to signing a long term contract,” as if it’s a gravy boat next to a Thanksgiving Turkey! Part of being a man is owning up to your decisions... Just because you have the money to buy your way out of what you did wrong, doesn’t make it right.

The final issue that people have with Angelos is his half-assed way of doing deals. He won’t commit to anything until the last minute and he undoes deals for very unsound reasoning. A comment further up the page says that P.A. has nixed more bad trades than good trades. If this rationalizing of his micromanagement skills (or lack thereof) were true, than why have the Orioles failed to even compete pre-2004 for the wildcard with a payroll that has been a top 10 in baseball?! They had plenty of opportunities and there are few times when they maximized those and finished above .500 let alone went to the playoffs! PA is a cancer to baseball and to the Orioles specifically.

No one likes him because he takes his time doing things. You may say, so what if he does desire to waltz around the room before finding his seat, right?! Well, it’s because for him to do that on a 16 x 14 major league dance floor, everyone else has to wait to sit down until he does. Every team has an owner/executive/GM that affects the other teams to some degree, but trying to act like Steinbrenner with a second class organization is just ridiculous. It’s like the trailer park whore putting on some new lip stick to go with her fishnets, thigh high stilettos, mini-skirt, belly-exposed tank top and big hair, then not understanding why everyone is looking at her funny when she tries to go inside the Opera House. I want to apologize to any whores or husbands of whores who live in a trailer park and enjoy going to the Opera that I might have offended by my last comment!

There is one other issue people are having with Angelos and that’s his hiring practices... You shouldn’t bring in a guy (MacPhail) that is indecisive to run an organization for a guy that’s overly meticulous (Angelos). Since they are the two most responsible for the perception of the Orioles, it makes the organization look like it suffers from two maladies simultaneously, both O.C.D. and A.D.H.D. Think of it like combining Monk with the squirrel from Over The Hedge. Sorry that’s the best analysis I can give of the situation!
The point is they spend so much time trying to figure what needs to be done next that nothing gets done now or they get so fixated on what is most important that everything else falls to crap around them. I guess there is really only one thing wrong with Angelos in hindsight. He’s an annoying and micromanaging hindrance towards anything being accomplished that does not blatantly favor the Orioles! Yup that sums it up!

Dark, you have met your match in the long post contest, my friend!

I'm not quite sure how to preceive that comment, Mr Teetz?!?! I'll error on the side of caution and say thank you!

darkstar, BaseballGuru hit the nail on the head.

About the future, when MacPhail came to Baltimore and the fans were told by MacPhail several times that if he didn't know he had full control over baseball operations, he wouldn't be here. The future was looking great from there on out until this. The Baltimore fans got so excited after he brought in Cherry and Moore for Steve Trachsel and especially after we reamed Houston with Tejada. Now, just when the true rebuilding is about to begin by trading off our most valuble trading chips to stock the minor league system, we start hearing about Angelos AGAIN interfering in deals. Shooting down the Chicago 7-2 deal and now again in the Bedard trade. If Angelos is going to be interfering, then our future is bleak as long as he remains owner of the Orioles and refuses to let his GM do his job. Baltimore is SO ready to start filling up the stands at the Yards again and so ready for our Orioles to start competing again. Peter Angelos has single handedly destroyed this organization and because he does not know baseball, he makes decisions based on his personal feelings and NOT what is best for the organization and what is best for the organization right now is trading Bedard and Roberts and build from the ground up, NOT with replacement players like the ones we brought in. You don't build the walls of the house before you set the foundation. Ground up, not middle out. Not patchwork, a rebuild. We have conceded the 2008 season, we don't care. Most oriole fans I've talked to know we have to trade these guys even though no one wants to. It has to be done. Bedard has said he doesn't want to be a part of a rebuild and wants to win and Roberts has also said that in a more subtle Roberts like way in a couple of post-game interviews after games towards the end of the 2007 season. If Angelos keeps pulling this crap, the Orioles will be contracted because he will have alienated all of the fans. It's just too painful to watch and there's nothing you can do about it except not watch.

While you guys have wasted your breath speaking to the choir (I don't think any of us in here actually thinks Angelos is a good owner), you guys are missing the point. The Ms and Os have been in contract talks but no deal has been reached. Bavasi believed to be very close on Sunday night so he told Adam Jones to not play and fly back to the US. That act alone sent ripples throughout the hot stove network. Adam Jones also went further by speaking very openly about being on the Os and how it feels to be traded for Bedard. Since then MacPhail has said that no deal has been reached, they are still talking, and that episode with Bavasi and Jones was waaay premature.

Supposedly the Orioles were concerned about an unconfirmed alleged degenerative hip condition (according to rampant rumor radio) so they were insisting on a physical to be scheduled. Since AJ's blurting out of deals in the works, the physical has been postponed and not rescheduled. That's where we are right this minute.

If you ask me, it sounds a lot like it was a large PR blunder by Adam Jones when no deal was on the table just yet. I hope all of you anti-Angelos fans get a chance to vent your hatred but it doesn't sound like it even got there. Wait a few days and we might get there.

One thing to note right now though is that the Sun is reporting that other teams have inquired about Bedard in recent days. So with Johan off the market perhaps the Bedard Chase starts anew. I'm sure you guys are glad to hear that, right?

One scary note about Adam Jones' supposed degenerative hip condition is that when Bill Bavasi was asked about it, he would not confirm it. That being said, he would not deny it either. Again nothing has been confirmed but it leaves us all hanging on that point.

So what else is new?!

It's very interesting that many Seattle fans would rather believe the unsubstantiated rumor that Angelos is a tyranical owner rather than the rumor of Adam Jones' hip is bad. I'm not about to guess which is the truth but it's very interesting. I'm reading posts by Mariners fans who have elaborate stories about how Os fans, MacPhail, and Os front office is making this up to create a ruse that deflects blame off of them for this deal not happening. Funny.

basemonkey, you are way off, this fallout isn't happening because the deal wasn't in play. If anything the deal was done and Angelos it pissed at Jones for opening his mouth and that has either delayed or nixed it entirely.

The only relevance the Santana trade has to this is confirm that the asking price for Bedard was too high to begin with, that other teams were justified in not offering more, and that the Mariners with Balentien or Jones as the main piece going to Baltimore is the best deal on the table now or in the future.

Bedard's value can only go down after pitchers report to spring training. Each day in Baltimore is one closer to free agency and it's been proven time and time again that the closer a player is to free agency, the more likely they are to wait for it instead of signing an extension!

Degenerative hip or not, this isn't watergate or Bill Clinton in the Oval Office with the intern. They've had two months to know about the desires of Bedard to stay or go and for them to find out about Jones...

My best guess would be that they are re-working the package to include Balentien or someone else instead of Jones to satisfy Angelos and they need an excuse to keep Oriole fans from throwing a fit! Bavasi's silence is nothing new and it may be his only chance at concluding these talks with #45 in a Mariners uniform. Sometimes you make a sacrifice for the good of the organization and I'd be willing to bet Bavasi wants Bedard in Seattle more than he wants to call Angelos on his B.S.

"It's very interesting that many Seattle fans would rather believe the unsubstantiated rumor that Angelos is a tyranical owner rather than the rumor of Adam Jones' hip is bad."

Lets talk unsubstantiated. This degenerative hip came out of nowhere and without the Orioles giving Jones a physical. It was brought about by a radio show in Baltimore with Jones thousands of miles away. He has never had injury concerns in his entire pro career. He has never even missed any stretch of time for any reason.

Now. Lets count the number of times Angelos has nixed trades for personal and senile reasons.

basemonkey let's flip the script real quick... explain why a half billion dollar company would pursue a player for five months and be in serious discussions for two months solid without knowing?!

If you can rationally answer that question than you'll be vindicated for your remarks about Seattle fans claiming a conspiracy theory type cover up!

I don't know if I would go as far as to say Bavasi knew Jones couldn't keep his mouth shut, so he told him in hopes that he would piss off P.A. It would be far fetched for Bavasi to assume this alone would eliminate Jones from trade discussions, but that is clearly the result either way.

I would say the result is somewhere in the middle. The deal was made. Jones couldn't shut up long enough to have this deal go through to completion (physicals and/or money). Finally, the Orioles and Mariners are doing some posturing to rework the deal without Jones for WHATEVER reason. Either way it was Angelos who was behind this on some level, not MacPhail. The Orioles GM wouldn't have come to agreement with Bavasi after 2 months, only to throw it away. He has shown that once he does commit to a deal he follows through on it, whether good, bad, or otherwise. This of course would be partly to blame for why he takes so long to come to an agreement in the first place!

Basemonkey, that had definately crossed my mind too. After Jones made those comments, the first reaction was to say that the Venezuelan media "misquoted" him. To me, that says that Jones was told he was traded and the media is trying to cover up for his mistake. A "misquote" is one or two words and apparently, everything he said was a misquote. That's ridiculous, he wasn't misquoted. It's the typical backpeddling. MacPhail is going to deny it no matter what I would think. It just seems like it's being orchestrated in a way that, if Angelos rejects the deal, they can just say there never was one and nothing falls back on Angelos or the Orioles. If Adam Jones says nothing, there's no issue. His comments were from someone who was told he was just traded to Baltimore for Bedard. It sounded like the typical speech from someone being traded to a new club. There was nothing suspicious about what he said or how he said it. He even praised Bedard and his abilities.

When this site was covering that 7-2 deal, one of the sources for that insisted that there was a deal and it was broke up according to his sources despite everyone involved denying it. That again, is typical.

Then again, if this hip thing is real and the M's knew about it, that might explain why they were so anxious to toss their #1 prospect into this deal without even trying to work it out so they didn't have to deal Jones.

I definately think that there is some truth to the O's FO setting this up to deflect blame. Angelos doesn't want heat and MacPhail doesn't want to look like a fool for coming here and believing he had complete control. There is definately good reason to be prepared to deflect blame away from us if Angelos did what he always does.

Just out of curiosity, thr33nil, how many times has Angelos nixed deals or acquisition? Which deals? If you can name 5 or more then I will be impressed. Again I am not supporting Angelos at all. I am just astounded (and intrigued) at the thought process of what's going on here between the media, perception, what fans' think they know but actually are regurgitated beliefs.

Granted, Angelos doesn't get a free pass with me by any means. I believe if you are in a position to enjoy the credit then you also have to endure the blame. And the last 10+ years testify to Angelos' track record. In a way it doesn't matter a lick what or how Angelos is. Whether he's meddling or not it's no difference. The fact that the Orioles have declined to such a point under him is reason enough. He could be the best kindest, respectful owner there is but if he still loses for 10 years then who cares?

As a point of history though, if there was a group of horrible decisions that sent the Orioles into major decline I think it might be the cache of players who were all signed to heavy contracts in the late 90s. And they all went down to injury in the worst way possible. The decisions to sign them were perhaps dubious, but it also was partly very bad luck. That pack was led by Albert Belle who had the most expensive contract of all (the highest ever at the time), in the prime of his career, and he got hit with a career-ending degenerative hip condition. I hear shades of that when I heard this rumor.

I have to admit, I am wondering if they are wanting a premium CF prospect, if they don't take another look at the 7 to 2 offer from the Cubs, even though it may or may not have happened. If the Cubs could give up a package centering around Pie, Veal,Gallagher, and Colvin, with 3 other guys involved...I will shed a tear of joy. While the park factor does factor into things, if there is a hip condition with Jones, their value isn't even close. It would be either replace Jones with another prospect or two out of Seattle, or take the Cubs package. Or, there are probably other offers that we don't even know about...still, I know Hendry is looking to get aggressive.

I'll field this thr33nil. If this was a court room which is a building used to debate topics, so it is a fair analogy, you could not submit evidence of things that did not occur in order to prove your case. Such materials or testimonies are inadmissible in court, I would know because I'm a law student who has represented myself in court for financial and fault cases.

It would be like you being a prosecuting attorney and saying that he wasn't at the produce market, the movie rental store, the bank, the mall, the theater, or the drug store, SO HE MUST HAVE KILLED HER!! What type of logic is that?! Counting the trades that never happened is more theoretical than anything we are discussing in this forum that you are boo-hooing!

The major deals that he has nixed, whether the package of players or the team they were dealing with that we know about are Roberts to Chicago, unsubstantiated as they all may be, Tejada to Anaheim early in the season, Roberts and Bedard to Chicago, Jones & Co.(the ballplayers not the soda) for Bedard. There's four off the top of my head. If any others occurred than you probably haven't heard about, it's because there was never this much intrigue following any one Orioles player...

In fact, name a player besides Cal that was worth paying attention to in the past before Bedard became a top flight pitcher?! He has got so much press this offseason that Tejada to Houston was an after thought!

There has never been a GM in baseball that walked in to a front office job and produced a champion the next season besides Theo Epstein the Wunderkin with however many Ivy League degrees. Key note, the Yankees were in somewhat of a decline, I personally believe the Yankees are suffering from the curse of A-Rod and will not win a championship as long as he's a Yankee and that had something to do with it, but call me crazy. Also he had two of the Top 10 offensive players in the game along with a solid rotation that was hands and feet above the Yankees starters at the time. Hard not to win when you play what was already there and who had all ready proven themselves to be a force to be wreckened with!

The fact is that Angelos is to blame for, if nothing more, the constant turnover in key leadership positions. Blame the signings all you want, but keeping Cal in year round when he was only a questionable offensive producer in his latter third of his career hurt also. The unwillingness to KEEP key players like Moose, Schilling, Moyer, three aces right there alone. How about we target the bad trades that Angelos did sign off on, which would be a good piece of evidence. Sidney Ponson to San Francisco was a classic. Good thing he pulled the trigger on that amazing improvement to the Orioles!

Well let's see. Off the top of my head.

Pete Harnisch, Curt Schilling and Steve Finley to the Astros for Glenn Davis. This was 1993, the first major trade he ever made in his first year with the club. A sign of things to come for sure.

John Maine and Jorge Julio to the Mets for Kris Benson. Maine was our best pitching prospect at the time.

He signed Javy Lopez.

He traded Jerry Hairston, Mike Fontenot and David Crouthers to the Cubs for Sammy Sosa

As mentioned above, he traded Sidney Ponson to the Giants for Kurt Ainsworth, Damien Moss and Ryan Hennaman.

As for vetos, he vetoed a deal to Houston for Tejada that would have brought Oswalt to Baltimore.

He vetoed a deal to Anaheim for Tejada that would have brought back Erick Aybar and Ervin Santana (may have been a third player in there)

And recently, he vetoed a 7-2 deal with the Cubs for Bedard and Roberts and is most likely holding up the Bedard to Seattle deal.

I'm sure there's more that I can't remember right now. Without MacPhail, we'd have no teams talking to us right now about Bedard. He brings credibility to the front office, but Angelos just might destroy that too and I'm sure MacPhail will walk if that happens. The O's have also had eight managers since 1993 and none stayed longer than three years. He was the sole reason Davey Johnson left and Johnson took us to the playoffs in both years he managed the team.

Angelos adamantly refuses to put "Baltimore" back on our road jerseys as well as the refusal to refer to them as the Baltimore Orioles. Hence, "Free the Birds" was born. A walkout was done in 2006 I believe and organized by the nephew of former player Luis Aparicio. Angelos then said "Whoever joins that protest has no comprehension of what it costs to run a baseball team" and referred to the leader of the walkout as "a very unimportant person who has delusions of grandeur". Angelos does not care about the fans, the team or anyone but himself. He's an old man that is set in his ways and has no business running a baseball team.

I'm sure there's more, but this is all I can remember. As you can see from the horrible trades he made, all but one was a bunch of our youth for a has-been (Not counting the Davis trade). Yeah, that sure does look like a rebuilding club to me. *shakes head* Trade your youth for has-beens and never-weres.

After a little looking here is an Orioles trade mentioned above by Sesshomaru of Pete Harnisch, Steve Finley, and Curt Schilling for Glenn Davis... This was considered by ESPN to be an honorable mention on the list of most lopsided trades in SPORTS HISTORY, not just baseball...

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/trades/010716.html

Here are some more trades:

Sent Willie Harris to
Chicago for Chris Singleton who was a bust and Harris went on to play 2B for the White Sox for the next half decade.

Jack Cust was designated for assignment and is now producing for Oakland with his obscene OBP.

Conine to the Marlins for Denny Bautista and Don Levinski. Conine was still productive and Bautista hasn't seen his ERA south of 5.40 in a career spanning 115 innings over 6 seasons with multiple clubs.

Steve Kline one of the top lefties in the game for LaTroy Hawkins... Kline posted a 3.66 ERA the following year compared with a 4.48 ERA for Hawkins and as I recall it left them with no true lefty specialist worth mentioning. That's almost a full run difference in ERA and everyone was talking about how much Hawkins was declining since he had only an above-average fastball and no second pitch compared to Kline who was the lefty EVERYONE wanted in the '05-'06 offseason...

These were the additional ones since 2001 with only a couple decent moves since... However, PA has found a way to screw up even the best moves like not finding a way to get Bynum more playing time to develope and letting pitchers like Hayden Penn toil in the minors when he should've been a proven commodity by now. The whole farm system has been mishandled and as a result many good young players have drowned in annonymity. Bedard should be praised for rising to the level he's at in spite of PA's best attempts to sabotage the minor league players in their system.

Wow, now that is a long post… No Guru, Teetz wasn’t complimenting you ~ he seems to believe that anything more than 2 sentences is way too long… I take his ere because I type really fast, give lots of stats and quotes, generally reply to multiple topics in one post and pretty much try to explain the things I say ~ end results are obviously going to be rather long posts.

Anyway, got a couple things to still question though.

Basemoneky again mentioned the first thing that comes to mind ~ How do you know this falling through had anything to do with Angelos? That’s kind of the entire point, its kind of what we were saying since the start ~ you just don’t know… Shoot, are we even sure there was ever a trade anyway, couldn’t all of it been elaborated? McPhail is acting like there was no deal, and seems to be saying he has only been talking with Seattle. Seems you are trying to burn Angelos at the stake because someone told a friend of yours that a friend of Angelos’ was possibly wearing a pointed hat…

Second ~ don’t you think McPhail would be more the issue with the whole “I didn’t realize he was open to a longterm contract” thing? If Bavasi has said since day one that he really wants to sign Bedard, and McPhail isnt telling Angelos that it’s a possibility ~ well, who would be at fault there? You really think an owner should allow a business decision to go through that he would have never agreed to if not mislead to begin with?

But listen, so much of everything being said is a series of assumptions that lead back to the poster complaining about Angelos. Remember the first thing Tim pretty much said when the deal was announced? (something to the effect of) Angelos would need to approve and he will not be able to do so until Tues”. Monday, we already hear that it isnt this done deal everyone is trying to make it out to be ~ and everyone points to Angelos. See the problem there? Media ~ Deal Done, Media ~ Angelos Busy/Unavailable till Tues, Media ~ Deal falls apart Monday, Posters ~ Angelos fault.

Now, there are also things said like “how do the O’s like Jones for months and not know about the hip”… I ask you, how would you expect them to know? Teams don’t turn over the final medical records until a deal is in its last few steps, until then you only get a rough-draft type write up or explanation of the medical stuff. We have seen issues in the past of trades happening only for one team to find out afterward that the player had issues they were unaware of ~ who knows if its something the M’s are aware of possibly being present, didn’t want to look into it more for fear of lowering his value and tried to hide that a bit from the talk with the O’s for fear it would hold up a deal. That seems much more plausible than thinking that the O’s somehow had every piece of information and teams of doctors going over page after page of a players medical records when they may or may not even ever have a preliminary deal in place to acquire said player…

Lastly, all the other stuff typed in the later posts kind of leads me to believe what the true motives are here. It seems that the people bashing Angelos now seem to have resentment over things from the distant past. Again, its attacking based off stuff from the distant past, it’s a complete unknown but its justified because of bitterness over things years and years ago. It seems conspiracy theories are being tossed around to somehow implicate Angelos here mainly because of things of the distant past. Sesshomaru mentions the “shooting down the Cubs 7 for 2 deal” ~ huh? That was all unsubstantiated rumors that are questionable at their root (the Cubs would have a very, very, very hard time finding 7 guys to get both); but here that sketchy rumor which was dismissed by almost everyone else in the media is pointed to as if it’s an indication of Angelos being an issue…

I think Basemonkey summed it up best with this:
“Again I am not supporting Angelos at all. I am just astounded (and intrigued) at the thought process of what's going on here between the media, perception, what fans' think they know but actually are regurgitated beliefs.”

Okay, let's try and simplify this for you, there was no misquote of Adam Jones or he would've played in game 4 of the VZ series. He didn't just sit in a hotel room because nothing was getting done. Also, if it was haste on Bavasi's part than they would've put him back in the next day instead of issuing a statement that he was done for the winter! There is no way that Adam Jones is lying, what reason would he have to say those things?! Another thing is that there is no person coming forward who heard the tape and misunderstood what Jones was saying to be anything but he was traded! There is no gray area on whether or not Bavasi told him and clearly he doesn't go around updating Jones every time MacPhail farts down-wind or we would've had this happen before now!

What we think we know? We've seen it with our own eyes. Let me ask you this. Let's say you knew someone that stole something from everyone he knew except you. Would you then invite that person into your house because all those other thefts were "in the past"? A track record speaks volumes about a person, who that person is and what to expect from them. You seem to think history means nothing. Until it is proven that he has changed, this is going to stay fresh in the minds of Oriole fans. Angelos has a history of turning down trades that his GM took weeks or months setting up and therefore, more of the same can be expected until it is proven that it shouldn't be expected. Angelos has a lot of proving to do on those grounds and like I said, he deserves everything that he gets. All the crap, the "assumptions" and all of it because of what he has already shown and proven what kind of person and owner he is. It's completely unreasonable to just say "Okay, that was in the past. Even though there are more than 10 instances of this happening, we should just pretend it didn't happen". That just isn't going to happen, sorry darkstar. We've had our hopes lifted several times only to have Angelos come along and crash them down and this situation just seems to be more of the same. Until Bedard and Roberts are actually traded, this kind of thing is going to continue and he deserves all of it. He is well past the "benefit of the doubt" phase.

You make a lot of good points, but this situation is different. Maybe we're all wrong this time and if that's the case, that's fine. I'll eat my words and I'll do it happily, but until then, Angelos will not get the benefit of the doubt nor does he deserve it.

Nobody can get up to go to the bathroom without Angelos giving them permission and you think that a dictator like that is going to have negotiations take place for two months and not know from someone inside the club that Bedard is opened to a contract extension through some of his free agent years?! What Bedard was saying without actually saying it, was he does NOT want to be in Baltimore, but if the team is set to be a contender that he would sign a long-term deal with them. This is probably his coded way of saying take the risk and get me the hell out of here and I'll reward you with signing your 5 year deal. He has to play the politics in this situation whether he's that type of guy or not! Bedard has made statements that can't be confused. He wants to be on a contender and that's not Baltimore unless they get night and day better and move to another division. By telling us what he wants in a team he is secretly telling us reasons why he doesn't want to be an Oriole anymore. The press is a great way to code messages to teams who are in negotiations for your team control years. Technically it would be forbidden for Bedard to call Bavasi or another GM and say get me out of here and I'm yours for 5 years, so he implies it through the press. Angelos suffers from wishful thinking and took that to mean he would sign with Baltimore. He said he wants to be on a contender and would be willing to sign long-term. Baltimore isn't a contender, so he wasn't referring to staying an Oriole. Pretty simple and no way anyone should screw that up!

THE ISSUE IS THAT ANGELOS IS TALKING ABOUT SITTING DOWN TO WORK OUT A LONG-TERM DEAL WITH BEARD IN THE 11TH HOUR AND THAT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE!!!! THAT'S A FORM OF RETRACTION IN TERMS OF THIS DEAL!!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU NEED SOMEONE TO CONNECT THE DOTS FOR YOU ANYMORE THAN WE HAVE!! FURTHERMORE... HOLY SH*T!!!

BEARD = BEDARD

You know your reluctance to grab hold of these concepts is to say the least a little disturbing, it's like a woman finding another female's underwear in her hamper and then thinking to herself it must be coincidence, my husband wouldn't cheat on me.

How about the chick that keeps getting beat by her ol' man and every time her friend says she needs to get away, she tells her how things will be different when she goes home only to be found beaten to death months later.

What about the guy that says he doesn't have a drinking problem, but his son has to explain how his athletic ability on the sports field doesn't cross-over into bike riding and he has a chronic falling problem to explain his lacerations and bruises from dad's last 12-pack.

Do you really think that the Seattle P.I. and Seattle Times, two of the most RESPECTED newspapers in the country, would post something about Jones if they were not implicitly sure of the source being correct?!

Why would Jones be so excited to pack up only to be totally morose the next day if there wasn't fallout from his talk with the reporter?! Shouldn't people be able to figure out what's going on without an instruction manual?! No wonder our divorce rate is through the rough in this country... No one can understand basic communication patterns and can see past the surface words. It's not what people say, it's how they say it. I'm going to go get a drink... from the bottle and to quote George Castanza, "SERENITY NOW!!"

Guru,

And none of that points to Angelos being involved… That’s kind of the point!

A) Jones could have been pulled out because it seemed a trade is possibly about to go down ~ it doesn’t mean one was in place. (but we don’t know) B) Bedards agent wasn’t told of a trade, so McPhail didn’t seem to take it too seriously (we do know that) C) Angelos was not in a business making situation at the time, meaning he wouldn’t have been able to go over any details (we do know).

Your theory would have to be a chain of events that go like this ~ A) Trade worked out B) Jones pulled C) McPhail believes trade wont go through and doesn’t tell his player D) Angelos denies trade without going over the details

Do you not see how difficult it is to instantly assume Angelos is the problem there?

Ok, I see you gave a ton more stuff in the time I was away from the PC ~ I’ll have to read it later…


Sess,

I understand completely the fact that you don’t trust him off the past, but where is the evidence here that he is involved? To use your scenario ~ Its kind of like you knowing a car thief in your past but he’s currently in jail. Then your car is stolen, do you instantly blame the guy sitting in the slammer?

Besides, doesn’t the Tejada trade going through with no problems point to the fact that its probably not the way things used to be? What other recent deals has he supposedly turned down? Bedard + Tejada for Injured Prior, no good Patterson and Rich Hill in 2006. Let me ask, do you think Paterson + Hill are worth Bedard and Tejada today? So why should he have agreed to that deal yesterday? And then factor in the changed direction of the club (fewer big FA contracts, more focus on stop-gaps and bring up kids). And then factor the fact that McPhail keeps telling you that Angelos has less input… I mean, you are taking the past while ignoring a bunch of things that show dramatic change, and are trusting everyone else while saying that only the Angelos past is relevant… Bashing Angelos here is taking extreme leaps of faith in everything but Angelos ~ its just hard seeing why everyone else gets an instant free pass because he is involved, and Angelos is bashed for something even you have a hard time really connecting him to…

Dude that is total conjecture that Bedard and Sherrill didn't know, it sounds more like everyone knew but Jones was the only one that didn't get the playbook! The play was set for a silent snap and Jones audibled, that doesn't mean that it wasn't the same play and it doesn't mean the rest of the guys didn't know what play it was before it was audibled... What I'm saying here is that Bedard's agent knows better than to piss off Angelos with reporting a trade is imminent to the press, for Christ's sake Bedard's boss is a lawyer and a damn good one! You don't want Angelos to backpedal out of the deal and you left trying to explain your libel. It sounds to me like MacPhail and Angelos have been screwing this up from day one. The only reason people are playing along is because everyone wants to dance with the Orioles cause they have Roberts and Bedard. You take Bedard and Roberts out of the equation and it's like the chess team captain just nailed your precious prom queen in his 83 Oldsmobile out behind the watershed. In other words, no one's going to want to dance with the prom queen that just screwed the leader of the geeks. The Orioles will be black balled after these two are traded or have left via free agency.

To clarify, your speculation that no one is lying to the press is crap! You are disputing Jones' comments about him being traded to the Orioles saying you can't believe what he said because you can believe what reporters write in the paper, it was a misquote. However, you are using evidence of other peoples' quotes to reporters in other news media to exemplify your point?! What a bunch of crap, AGAIN!

Oh and for Sherrill to be as upset as he was in his interview right after news broke of the trade, it was as if he all ready knew it had happened. It wasn't a "let's wait and see," type of response, it was a "damn, couldn't I have stayed a Mariner?!"

you can't believe what he said because you *can't not can* believe what reporters write

No, I don't blame the guy sitting in the slammer unless he had control over it like, for example, he paid the guy to steal my car. He had control over the matter just as Angelos does.

Angelos loved Tejada and I think a big thing that turned PA off to Miguel was because of the steroid allegations, the power outage and the impending Mitchell Report. No, I'm not saying Patterson + Hill is equal to Bedard and Tejada, but Glenn Davis wasn't equal to Harnisch, Schilling and Finley. Benson wasn't better than Maine. Sosa wasn't better than Fontenot, Crouthers and Hairston and same goes for the Ponson trade. So what, he got lucky once and actually rejected a bad trade. It hardly makes up for the other 50 that cost this franchise two decades worth of progress. If we had kept Harnisch, Schill and Finley, there's no telling how much more we would have gotten out of the 90's than two playoff eliminations. If we kept Maine, we'd have Bedard, Maine, Loewen, and Guthrie which is a mean starting four. If Angelos trades for Oswalt, we'd have two aces and no one worse than a #3 starter. There is no telling where we could have been right now if we had an owner that actually knew baseball instead of just thinking he does. Matter of fact, he tried to trade Loewen away for Hudson last year. Now, don't get me wrong; Hudson is a good pitcher, but Adam Loewen is going to be the ace of the O's one day provided Bedard is traded. He walked a lot last year, but he pitched well enough to be 5-0 with a 3.56 (I think) ERA with a *broken elbow*. I would not have done that deal and thank god Hudson didn't like Mazzone and refused to come here. I would have been so mad if we traded him away too.

The point is there is plenty of evidence to show how stupid Angelos is when it comes to baseball and it's extremely hard to believe that all of these "Angelos interfered" stories coming up are all baseless. If Angelos had a good track record with only a couple bad trades, then yes, it would be unfair to judge him like this, but none of that applies to PA. He has been a disaster of an owner for the Orioles. He ran everything out of Baltimore that was ever good. Unfortunately at this point, Angelos is guilty until proven innocent. How is he proven innocent? He allows the complete rebuild and moves Roberts and Bedard.

You don't believe Jones
Source ---- MEDIA

You believe Angelos
Source ---- MEDIA

You don't *think*(as you stated we don't know anything for sure, you can't have it both ways) Bedard or his agent knew anything about the trade
Source ---- MEDIA

We don't KNOW anything about what their real comprehension of the details were... All we know is that he SAID he didn't know anything...
Source ---- MEDIA

Angelos is a lawyer and as a recourse doesn't talk through papers. How many quotes has he ever made and of those how many were not absolutes, like we have signed so-and-so, I like this person, it would be nice to retain Bedard. He doesn't talk about pending stuff even if it's been sitting on his desk for three days!
Source ---- Media

We know that MacPhail said that Angelos had not seen the information yet, but that doesn't mean that it was true. He could have looked over the files as a precautionary aspect in case a deal was made. Also MacPhail saying the deal had not been brought to PA may be part of a pub. relations move to make it look like MacPhail is actually working seperate from Angelos on this and that the final piece is the only thing PA needs to approve as opposed to him being babbysat by Mr. Mafiosso, Peter Angelos.

You can't debunk Jones' comments by saying they were through the media and who knows what was really said... and then in the same breath use media sources to prove your side of the coin.

If you were to try and use this logic in a courtroom you would be laughed at by the judge and a recommendation/offer of time to retain new counsel would be made to your client.

Guru,

You seem to be way off topic and erroneously quoting me. I never said I didn’t believe Jones and I never said he wasn’t pulled from the series because of a trade ~ I was asking you if you knew for sure if that meant a trade had been completed or if its just as likely Bavasi sent word that “a trade could be forthcoming so why don’t you just come home instead of risking anything holding it up further”. Just because he was pulled from the series doesn’t mean a trade was taking place, it could have been Seattle just feeling that it was getting closer to looking like one might go down… I also never said we should completely dismiss what we hear, but we have to think about it with an open mind instead of one with alternative motives…

Now, with that said ~ the rest of what you said is basically just incorrect and very off-topic. I said (based off the media) that yes, the things you know is A) Jones pulled (unknown if trade done or nearing finish or even just looking likely) B) Everyone is acting like they didn’t know about a deal being complete C) Angelos wasn’t in the offices and would have never been able to look at all the detail completely. If you think that automatically points to Angelos had to have been this big bad meddling freak who jumped in and and told the M’s to F* off… well, obviously you do because you are doing everything you can think of to make me believe it. I’m sorry, I cant though. Even if he is some incoherent freak that dismisses each and every trade that ever gets discussed, there still isnt enough evidence to point to this one being even so far enough along as to have been brought to his attention for approval ~ and he wasn’t there to approve it, making it even more difficult to believe…

I realize you hate the guy, but that hate is manifesting a series of jumping to conclusions and reading between the lines in an effort to do nothing more than try to point the finger at him. If you are looking for something with all your heart, you will usually find a way to say it’s the case. There are still people who swear that there was a shooter on the grassy-knoll despite the fact that the bullets flat out could not have come from that area.

(Also, I see you again came back talking about my debunking Jones comments ~ I’ll remind you that I never infact ever mentioned his comments what so ever. I also never tried to prove a singe thing I said with anything said in the media. I’m not sure where you are getting this stuff, but I don’t think you paid attention too well at all…)

Sess,

I didn’t say “lets take a look at his trade history” ~ I said “lets see what he has recently supposedly turned away”. What we have is a deal he damn well better have turned away, and that’s about it. You shouldn’t believe for one min that he turned a 7/2 trade to the Cubs, the Cubs would have to be giving up way too many pieces from their current team leaving way too many holes in the club just to get an upgrade elseware ~ there was no Cubs/O’s 9 player deal. They could have been talking, but that would get no where near Angelos for approval… Besides, if people constantly destroyed him for making trades in the past, maybe that’s why he is reluctant to do so now… It wont be remembered that MacPhail was behind a deal today, O’s fans will always just attach his name to it if it doesn’t work out…


As far as this:
“No, I don't blame the guy sitting in the slammer unless he had control over it like, for example, he paid the guy to steal my car. He had control over the matter just as Angelos does.”
…Exactly! But what you will need to do is find the evidence to prove that this actually was the case. To instantly think of him would solely be judging him off things within you, it would be you feeling slighted and looking for someone to blame, coming to a logical conclusion in your mind even if the situation didn’t quite fit…

Right now we know Angelos was in jail for the most part (not in office so not able to look at deal) ~ to automatically accuse him of being the one to dismiss it without him going over the details would actually create two situations A) he was set on dismissing it no matter what B) because of A, MacPhail is actually the one who looks to be causing the problems. If he is spending 2 months misleading a team into believing they can make trade that Angelos will never approve, then that falls solely on his lap…

So no matter what I see three things that keep coming up… 1) People are wanting to blame Angelos despite not really knowing anything for sure 2) this specific deal doesn’t seem to be secure enough to safely assume it even went all the way to Angelos to begin with 3) MacPhail seems he could be more the problem with the Bedard situation…

I don't think this was about that at all for Seattle because I've watched them pull crap like that before and their offer was 10 times better than what the Mets gave up for Santana...

So honestly, truly, they have the best offer on the table. Bavasi needs to suck it up and give MacPhail and Angelos a deadline to force their hand. Since Bavasi isn't doing that it has become a game of chicken for these two organizations...

Jones is way better than Gomez or Martinez, Sherill is more valueable/better than Mulvey, Tillman is better than Humber, and anyone else they throw in that's been talked about, would be better than the other guy for the Mets.

I'm sure there is still a little bit of cover up going on, if for no other reason than Bavasi doesn't want to endure the backlash for not being able to keep his players mouth shut long enough to make him, Angelos' problem.

summary

paragraph 1

I've seen Seattle offer junk or half-ass an attempt at getting a player...

paragraph 2

Say Friday you accept or you find someone else to deal with permenantly.

paragraph 3

Mickolio or Butler is better than the forth prospect going from NYM to MIN...

paragraph 4

If you can't get your player to keep his mouth shut, it's because of poor leadership... If Jones is talking than Bavasi isn't leading and that goes in the Mariner's scorecard under deficiences that Bill Bavasi has shown to possess.

NOW!! (DRUM ROLL)

Here's the 1 MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!!!

You own a team valued at 359 million dollars, you are a successful lawyer who has made his money on being right more times than you're wrong, you have learned to trust nobody you've put in play as management over the last 15 years, and you see attendance and profits disappearing simultaneously, being that you've never really known defeat you figure your ability to deal with situations and to make good choices can be the beacon of hope for your franchise...

What way do you run your team?!

A) Being a self-righteous ass who thinks himself mightier than all and who arrogantly exerts his athority upon others, you find out that a punk 22 year old AAA player has the nerve to talk about your team's trade before you have even okayed it. Feeling undermined, you inform the press that Sherrill, Jones, and Bavasi were getting ahead of themselves and that there is not a pending trade between Seattle and Baltimore. You immediately feed the press a story about how you knew nothing of the deal and have AM call all the other GMs to place feelers out on a Bedard to xxxxxxx trade! Finally, you act surprised that AM would go behind your back and you tell the reporters that all you want is to resign Bedard and that two months worth of intense negotiations was a misunderstanding within the system and that if we knew he wanted more years we would've given that to him and not tried to trade him to every team this side of the Pacific Ocean. It's not like we didn't sit down face-to-face and talk about it, he could have told me then!

or

B)You find out after two months of negotiating that the key player your GM has been trying to trade for is damaged goods because the local free newspaper knew something your panel of experts and million dollar executives didn't. In a fit of rage you call up MacPhail and tell him to order another player be included to keep this deal alive or discussions are through. You immediately feed the press a story about how you knew nothing of the deal and how MacPhail has not alerted you to anything being close to done yet. To build back up Erik's value, you contact other GMs to place feelers out on a Bedard to xxxxxxx trade! Finally, you act surprised that AM would go behind your back and you tell the reporters that all you want is to resign Bedard and that two months worth of intense negotiations was a misunderstanding within the system and that if we knew he wanted more years we would've given that to him and not tried to trade him to every team this side of the Pacific Ocean. It's not like we didn't sit down face-to-face and talk about it, he could have told me then! With everything going wong around you, it is not your fault though because an organization should be able to operate without the owner... Even the way in which I own my franchise has no overall effect on the results that are gained by the players and my baseball operations staff.

Good point, number two is far more believeable! (dripping with sarcasm)

I mean B not two.

By the way Bedard it looks like, will be a Mariner by the weekend!

What are you freaking talking about? You are just running all over the place waiving your hands in the air completely missing the actual conversation at hand… I can make up fantastic fables based of my theories too; it doesn’t mean it’s the only possibilities of the fables are built on any strong evidence. And what did the first post & recap in the first half have to do with the fables you present? And what did it have to do with the things I said? You sure do have a knack of saying tons of stuff in the most outlandish way possible to hide the fact that you actually aren’t coming anywhere near an actual point…


“By the way Bedard it looks like, will be a Mariner by the weekend!”

…So what happened to all the “this is Angelos shooting it down with all his meddling” theories then?

err, I had some "of" problems up there...

"I can make up fantastic fables based *OFF* my theories too"

"it doesn’t mean it’s the only possibilities *OR* the fables are built on any strong evidence"

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