Astros To Pass On Lohse

oh yes now the competition is falling. im about to wet myself. lohse is like that new fall tv show everyone talks about during the summer, and then its cancelled after 5 episodes. kyle lohse needs to be cancelled. between him and roberts ive had enough.

Pssh, I'm still not worried. The Rockies made it to the World Series last year and just look at the rotation they had...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting anything of that sort, but with that weak division and a much improved line-up I do expect a fun season.

Only way they aren't looking at Lohse is if they know they might get Clemens sometime this year. Otherwise its dumb not to get someone to pitch to a mid 4s ERA

Lohse MIGHT be a "mid 4s ERA" at his very best. There's no reason to compound the $6.5MM Woody problem by adding another $4MM.

WHIPit is exactly right. You would basically be getting the same production from Kyle Lohse that you would get from Woody Williams, so why add to the payroll.

Sickening. any injuries and Chacon is the #3? There will be some sinful ERAs in front of that defence.

100 losses this year, Astros?

Is Ed Wade crazy? If I were in his position and Scott Boras offered me Lohse for one year and $4 million, I'd shake his hand until it fell off. The Astros desperately need the pitching, and 180 innings of 4.00-4.50 ERA from Lohse is much better than Woody Williams' 5.27 ERA and 35-homer 2007. Plus, Williams is a year older now. $4 million for Lohse is a steal.

4 million for Lohse may seem better than what the Astros have, but I would never consider it a steal.

Bad news when fall back plans include the solid but unproven Brad James and A ball and Winter League K king, Bun Norris.

The Astros won't lose 100 games in the NL Central (they would in the AL East ).

Honestly, it's one of the worst rotations in the Majors. Adding Kyle Lohse isn't going to make it a contender, but might help just a little bit.

The 'Stros are understandably concerned about the 41 year old Woody Williams, but...

Today the Tigers started their Opening Day lineup for the first time. Check out the box. Granderson went oh fer but Williams faced 18 hitters and allowed 10 hits, four homers. Two of the outs were caught on the warning track.

Glass half empty, Williams is finished. Glass half full, this lineup is going to torch lots of pitchers this summer, deal with it. No NL team has anything remotely resembling this lumber company.

When you get pounded, and everybody does, it's at least possible you're not THAT bad.

Andrew34: as a phillies fan, i can confirm for you that yes, ed wade is indeed crazy. that said, if the phillies, cardinals, and astros (among others) keep passing on lohse, there's got to be something going on we just don't know about. lohse is a serviceable 4-5 starter, aside from one pitch to kaz matsui, i was happy with his performance as a phillie last year.

I think the Stros will win more then they lose. But Offense is not everything. Its not like they are good defensively. A number 2 starter would be nice. But there are not any left. Lohse is a nice addition.

i think if lohse was really going to put up an era between 4 and 4.5 you would have 10 teams interested. its very simple. lohse sucks. hes not good. hes talent challenged. hes a bum. hes no good. he couldnt hold a job last year in the twins rotation and last time i checked their rotation last year wasnt any good.

seriously if u think the stros are winning more games this year than they r losing u r either very confused or a diehard stros fan. i love the cards but im certainly not crazy enough to think they will be above 500. having said that i think they will be better than the stros.

I don't understand the Astros at all.

They have a large payroll with big ticket guys (Lee, Tejada, Oswalt, Berkman, etc). Farm system doesn't have a lot to offer in terms of changing the organization around. For some reason they think they are buyers when in reality they should be selling everything and everyone not named Pence.

Playing in the NL Central gives the team a false sense of being "that close" to making it to the playoffs. $90+ million still won't buy more than 75 wins.

At some point you need to cut your losses and start the rebuilding process. Finally Baltimore has realized it (only about 3 years too late). If you are an Astros fan pray that the team will see the light.

If you moved Lee/Oswalt/Berkman/Tejada you would clear $50m in salaries this year plus get off the hook for future obligations (Lee's escalating salaries in 09-12 work out $18.5m each season).

Plus those guys all have value and would return young talent to build around. Drop your payroll into the mid $30's and stock up on youth. Gear up for a run in '10 or '11.

"If you moved Lee/Oswalt/Berkman/Tejada you would clear $50m...."

Sounds easy enough, except that Lee, Oswalt and Berkman all have no-trade clauses, and Tejada has almost no trade value.

trust me, if the astros could trade lee, tejada, oswalt, and berkman, I'd be all for it. buuuut tim purpura gave lee a no trade, gave oswalt a no trade (not that i object to that), and then wade traded what little prospects we had for steroids tejada.

as a fan, I just want to say that I've been pissed at their front office since the whole Carlos
Beltran saga.

if they could find a way to get young and rebuild, i'd be all for it.

Trade Lee/Oswalt/Berkman/Tejada?? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard... Yeah we traded all our prospects for Tejada before the steriod issue, but now we are supposed to turn around and trade him for prospects?? No one would go for that... Oswalt is a hometown boy and the greatest pitcher in Astro history with a no trade clause also... Yeah trading him would do wonders for your fan base.. Berkman wont play anywhere else ever and Lee is quickly becoming a fan favorite... Be like me telling the Yanks to trade ARod & Jeter... Or the Braves to trade Smoltz & Chipper, Just Dumb...

well lets see...

a.) the Yankees won't have to trade anyone ever...they can just raid the free agent market every year. I'm also pretty sure that A-rod almost left anyway.

b.) Chipper (and Smoltz, too, I believe) has re-worked his contract a few times to allow the Braves to acquire and keep some good players. Not to mention, the Braves farm system is nowhere near as bad as Houston's. In fact, Houston might have the worst farm system in the mlb.

Also, I don't think the fact that Tejada was traded a day or two before the Mitchell report came out is any coincidence.

Not to mention, Oswalt is from Weir, Mississippi. Doesn't exactly make him a hometown boy.

Don't get me wrong, I love Berkman, and I love Oswalt even more. But if Houston's fanbase would like to build a team to compete for many years instead of the patchwork job that Wade has done that will make us a mediocre team this year, that would have to be done. And don't get me wrong, Wade has done a great job getting what he could with the players that were expendable.

I honestly think despite the pitching staff that the Astros will compete for a playoff spot in the weak NL central, but those big name players are only going to get older, so either we start drafting extremely well or trade them at some point while they still have value.

Biggio07 ... that's the problem with the Astros mentality. Statements like, "We just traded for Tejada and we won't get equal value back" is correct. However, that doesn't mean you should just hold on to him.

It's called realizing you made a mistake and biting the bullet. It's not like Tejada has zero trade value. The Mitchell report didn't change anything. Rumors of Tejada juicing have been around for years now. The report did not diminish his trade value.

Everyone of those players (Tejada/Berkman/Lee/Oswalt) would bring back varying degrees of talent. The long-term health of the franchise would be dramatically improved by shedding $50m in payroll this year (plus even more in later years), acquiring 10-15 minor league players, and rebuild.

Finally, as for the no trade clauses ... how many times does this need to be discussed. Players are traded every year that have NTC. You may have to sweeten the deal with extra incentives but it's not all that hard. Are you really telling me that Berkman wants to spend his remaining good years on a team with a $50m payroll that is rebuilding for '11? Something could get worked out.

But then, what do I care? Be happy with a team that is financially choked, without any indication that the future holds more promise than just being a mediocre team. Live in the same fantasy world as the Orioles of old. Finally, after years of dreaming, the Orioles got a dose of reality. They are selling off the parts and rebuilding for the future. I wouldn't have been worried about competing against the Orioles of yesterday but I do worry about playing them a few years down the road. They will have young, cheap talent, and all sorts of money to do things like sign Tex.

One more point - stop worrying about your fanbase. Would the fans rather you spend the next 5 years playing 500 ball or would they rather you suck it up for a fear years, rebuild, and then be competitive? No one is suggesting that rebuilding is easy or fun. However, that shouldn't be an argument against doing it.

" It's not like Tejada has zero trade value. The Mitchell report didn't change anything. Rumors of Tejada juicing have been around for years now. The report did not diminish his trade value."

--No but now that he's being investigated for possibly pejury....and there's also the reports out of ST that says he can't handle SS anymore. Both of these things CLEARLY diminish Tejada's value, and both have happened since the Mitchell Report.

"Finally, as for the no trade clauses ... how many times does this need to be discussed. Players are traded every year that have NTC. You may have to sweeten the deal with extra incentives but it's not all that hard. Are you really telling me that Berkman wants to spend his remaining good years on a team with a $50m payroll that is rebuilding for '11? Something could get worked out."

--But working things out again diminishes the value of each player. Carlos Lee is going to be paid a TON of money in the '11 and '12 seasons ($37M to be exact). You think a team would give up the same package for Lee if he demanded money/years being added onto the end of that?

Oswalt may waive his NTC, but he'd probably want more than just his '12 option being picked up and for a guy that'll be declining....

Last Berkman, he'd be the hardest to convince, but would be willing to go somewhere and would have significant value. However, since it's still a full no trade clause, he's in the drivers seat and decides where he'll go, limiting the Astros options and driving down their price.

NTC doesn't make the player impossible to trade, but it makes it very hard to get a good return.

First off, pitching:

As much as I and most other Astros fans would like Woody Williams gone, I doubt he gets the boot. He may be bad, but he's an innings eater and the Astros don't have anyone else to fill that role.

Lohse, no thanks. $4M for an equally bad pitcher, and the other part is that the Astros are one of the teams that don't deal with Boras after the Beltran debacle.

Considering the runs the Astros will score this year, Oswalt, Wandy, Backe ,Chacon and Williams isn't so bad. Sampson can take over if these's an injury and Reinke's not too far off.

To those with the ridiculous suggestion that the Astros rebuild, I have 2 questions. Why? and With What?

Why = the NL Central is still bad and will be so for the next few years so why tear down completely when a player addition and a few lucky breaks could get you into the playoffs?

With What = The Astros had the worst farm system in the majors even before the Tejada deal, so who's going to fill the 4-5 fielders and 2-5 pitchers we'll need if we deal everyone (if somehow they get around the no-trade clauses)? Berkman and Lee may bring a decent return, but only Oswalt and Pence would return legitimate top prospects.

The truth is even if McLane has a change of heart and starts signing draftees above slot, the Astros are 3-4 years away from having a decent farm system again.

If you had a choice in struggling by with a decent lineup and poor pitching - with an outside shot of contending in a weak division or dumping everyone and fielding a team that makes the Rays & Royals look like the '27 Yankees, which would you choose??

well the thing is:

Pence doesn't move.

and Oswalt has stated that he might retire after this contract is up anyway, which seems nuts to me cuz he'll only be like 35 and he's so damn good.

Why do they rebuild? while Houston can win a weak NL Central, it's kind of like a ticket to a first round playoff loss.

with what? they rebuild by trading those big name productive players. each could bring back at least 3 solid prospects, and then you sign some cheap guys to short term deals.

yeah, they'd suck for a few years, but then (hopefully) the prospects turn into some good ballplayers, and you lock them up (if they're worth it).

this isn't gonna happen this year, or possibly until McLane doesn't own the team anymore, because he doesn't believe in rebuilding.

the astros rotation is just not good enough to compete for the playoffs.

hate to break it to you. but tejada cant log 200 quality innings.

yes the stros problem is definitely pitching. i agree with the posts that say they dont know what the stros r thinking. they werent going to compete(even in that weak division) yet they sold the farm for tejada. if they went and signed a couple more good pitchers(which didnt exhist) they could compete. the cards arent going to compete but instead of fooling themselves they improved their contract situations(no edmonds,one less year on glaus for rolen) and r basically planning for next year. also the cards wont compete because of injuries like carpenter, mulder, encarnacion, and spiezio(ok maybe thats a brain injury). thats about 25 million in payroll. the stros have just made bad decisions. oswalt is awesome but those other contracts are no good.

Yes Berkman will retire as an Astro even if they went into the rebuilding phase... He already said that he has no desire to play else where... Lohse blows, he's average at best... And the stros bats can easily carry a team into the playoffs in the NL Central..

There are some pretty extreme measures being discussed here.

My contribution is to say that, as a member of the Astros fan base, I like all of the players that feel should be jettisoned. They are elite, and they are fun to watch. Winning is great and all, but not at the expense of a team full of prospects.

The Astros should draft well, obviously, and sign some pitching, but rebuilding sucks and I would rather a five hundred team that challenges for an NL Central playoff spot than a crew of signing bonus babies. The Astros have been a team that exhibits abnormally high levels of loyalty and continuity, and before you chortle at that idea, take a look at the playoff runs they've made in the last ten years around a core of star vets and career Stros, peppered with quality free agent pick-ups. That scenario is hardly impossible in the coming few years.

If a GM is incompetent--as Wade may prove to be, who knows--then rebuilding will go as badly as staying the course. I, for example, don't expect the Orioles to compete any more effectively even in a few years just because they snagged a bunch of mediocre Houston prospects, all in the name of rebuilding, as though that is some kind of magic cure for a badly run team.

Tedeja is a cry baby and remember he's no longer juiced up. Tedeja numbers are on the decline anyways.Almost any team would have Tedeja at 3b.His range at ss is gone.Astros pitching After Owalt is scary and if you held onto Patton he could have been a number 3 LOL.Astros need 8 to 10 runs to be realistic on competeing.When the Astros lose,Tedeja will start cring once again.The Cub's will take that weak n.l. central.I mean seriously 70 to 75 win season is in the future.O's MIGHT HAVE MORE WINS:)Scott with 500+ ab's should have more home runs then Tedeja.Albers has look decent in the spring to along with strafate.Here's a couple of names of Oriole prospects to remember Reimold,Rowell,Weiters,Jones,Penn,Olson,Lowen ect.Baltimore has alot of solid pitching prospects.I know thier just prospects but it's the right direction. 2 to 3 yrs and remember N.Y.& Boston are in our division.Maybe Clemens will give you guys 30 starts, you will need them.