Frank Thomas Released

I think Seattle may also be a possibility. They can't possibly be sold on Vidro can they?

Oakland would be a great fit in that he played well and seemed happy there, but the presence of Jack Cust and Mike Sweeney would make for a massive DH logjam.

I don't see much demand for Thomas unless he learns to play 1B again. Maybe the yanks can find a spot for him? Panic mode is going to start pretty soon for them.

Bring him back to Oakland, drop the heck out of Cust who is batting a powerful .138 with a thousand strikeouts and keep Sweeny as a back up 1b behind Barton. It makes sense and Thomas I think would welcome the return to Green and Gold!

It seems logical that the Jays will go for Bonds now that the Hurt is gone.JP also wanted to free 10 million from payroll next year so that's one of the reaons for that release.Then again signing Hurt to that contract wasn't that smart to begin with! The Jays have a chance to win this year and the Hurt hurt them in some way.Can anyone picture Barry in Toronto Blue?I can.....

Does the 'Sammy Sosa Retirement Watch' start now?

I would say that the Big Skirt signs before Barroid who signs before Slammin' Sammy Soso.

Toronto fans got a belly full of the Frank Thomas routine last season - he didn't start hitting until the Jays were buried in the standings. $10M is an insane amount to pay to a middle of the batting order guy who isn't producing. Toronto should be a better ball club with someone like Adam Lind or Matt Stairs at DH

I think that the Mariners pretty much have to jump on this one. He's got the power potential of Bonds, and is a complete opposite in terms of PEDs (Bonds is a user, Thomas is the only active MLB player who spoke to Sen. Mitchell). Jose Vidro is not an adequate DH, especially for a team with a legitimate shot at winning the division. Their lineup has some good hitters (Ichiro, Ibanez, Beltre, Johjima) and some other guys who can contribute from time to time (Betancourt, Lopez, Sexson, Vidro) and then one guy who is terrible in Wilkerson. But right now this team needs another middle of the order option, and Thomas is that. Bavasi has made all these win-now moves, and adding Thomas would be the icing on the cake. I'd feel far better about the M's if they added the Big Hurt.

Nat:

If the Jays had put Stairs in left, wouldn't the pitcher have to bat in the DH slot? I'm not sure my understanding of this rule is correct, but maybe that would help explain this not as a snub per se.

I'm wondering if a contender with a pretty decent defensive bench wouldn't have room for Frank - maybe Cleveland or Detroit? I really like the Cincinnati idea from gmblgpitchr20. Makes a lot of sense.

scopi14 - We're talking pre-game lineups, so it'd be simply Stairs in LF, Thomas (or Inglett) at DH. Midgame is a different story, and sounds like you would have it right.

Cinci does need more right handed hitting, but I don't think Thomas is going to seek a limited role and I don't think it'd be the best move to put him in the field at this point. Just my two cents. Should be really interesting.

This puts the Jays in 1st place for "who will sign Bonds".

And I think they should.

Wow ... it's a little early to cut Thomas.

Couple points:

1. If Thomas does hit his AB's this year with another team will Toronto still be liable for his 2009 option season?

2. I don't think Thomas signs that quickly. He was bad at 1st base years ago. Can't imagine what it would be like for him to man it now. Once you look at the AL there are limited teams that are in a win now mode that need a DH. He would make for a great off the bench bat but clearly he is not willing to take on that role. He wants to play everyday.

cletus,

im not sure of nat's background, but you aren't correct and it is somewhat obnoxious for you to tell somebody they are wrong for not apparent reason. nobody likes the grammar police.

when i was in law school, i was conditioned to put punctuation outside of quotations in many cases, including when the quote was not a full sentence.

i have been writing this way as an attorney for a couple years, i've never seen anybody put punctuation inside quotes in those cases, including Supreme Court briefs. functional (or at least legal) english may have evolved beyond your grammar book.

themsfightnwords,

I totally agree about the Mariners being the most logical choice, but not because I'm a Mariners fan. I realize he has a ridiculously great walk to strikeout ratio and he still hits for power, but I don't think he makes the M's noticeably better.

For one the most glaring benefit for Seattle would be that they could shuffle Vidro to the bench long enough to make it impossible for his deal to vest next year and even if they picked up Thomas' contract and 304 plate appearance issue, the fact of the matter is that Thomas only starting against lefties from here out should be enough to make both vesting options fail to take place, so there's zero risk unless Seattle really screws the pooch on this one.

Other benefits include incentive for Richie to swing a hot bat and it also cuts playing time for Wilkerson if he's not in RF. You'll have Thomas sitting on the bench and his presence alone will keep players sharp. I think it would be a good move financially.

The biggest thing about the Vidro contract is that they can't just sit him on the bench and say hey you're on course for 20 HRs and 110 RBIs so far, but you low average bothers us a little even though you have a very tidy OBP.

The fact that we have to pay you around 10MM next year is looming pretty large, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this! So hey tell you what, go catch some pine and we'll call you in July after the All-Star break! I just think they need a proven star to cut into Vidro's time without him raising a stink like Thomas did. IMO though, I'd be thrilled to have Thomas renewed at 10MM instead of Vidro, but I just have a disdain for the guy that I can't even explain, so Vidro is on my sh*t list even when he goes 3 for 4 with 2 homeruns!

So in 10 days, anyone can get Frank Thomas for the minimum and Toronto is still has to pay his full salary for 2008?

Actually, the world's top scholars use the Chicago Manual of Style (the accepted reference guide for academia). Again, law might be different, but as was pointed out earlier, Chicago Manual of Style says that commas and periods go inside quotes.

Regardless, let's say putting a period or comma outside a quote is "accepted" in some circles in the United States, but it doesn't make it correct--just as saying "I haven't drank much" or "I ain't" are acceptable phrases (even though they're grammatically incorrect). No this isn't a grammar nitpicky site, but if Nat wants a future in journalism or writing, he should learn the rules. If I were an editor and he were applying for a job at my publication and he made these mistakes, he'd quickly have one strike against him. Cletus, for all is annoying know-it-allness, was simply pointing the correct grammar usage.

"Cletus, for all is annoying know-it-allness, was simply pointing the correct grammar usage."

...There is too much nit-picking over nothing that becomes long drawn-out pointless conversations thousands of miles away from the actual conversation as is. Correct or not, is it worth mentioning? I think thats kind of the point... If he was worried about Nate and his career, why didnt he email Nate? Posting it here does what though?

And as far as the topic itself ~ wow... Didnt expect this one to progress like this. I dont know if I really see the Jays thinking though, he is struggling but its not like he doesnt have a track-record here ~ and they seemed to have handled it in a rather questionable way. I mean, they don’t seem to worried about playing Overbay ever single day even though he cant break wind at the plate, yet Thomas struggles and they have to create mass chaos? Was Thomas really the problem? And when the Hurt turns his year around ~ possibly for a team like the Yanks; but Overbay stays Overbay-ish… well…

As many people above have said, I think it's very likely for the Big Hurt to sign back with oakland. I base that not on being an A's fan and how I enjoyed watching him have a great season for us, but he liked it in Oakland, as a matter of fact he said he loved in oakland, and Billy Beane is smart and he sees Jack Cust's 1-25 streak as a sign for needed improvement, Mike Sweeney is hitting like .270 but has yet to hit a home run. Plus the A's lack a true cleanup hitter. So Thomas could be seen in the Green and Gold very soon.

"Angels - Anderson and Matthews both have OB% under .300. Let them split time in LF."

I seriously doubt that the Angels go after another DH guy. They already have Guerrero, Hunter, Anderson and Matthews rotation through the four spots. On top of that they have Juan Rivera, who deserves 500 at bats somewhere, and Reggie Willits in AAA.

I just don't quite see why the Angels would add Thomas. If they wanted to get more offense, then put Rivera at DH or in left. If the Angels make any additions I'd expect them to be pitching moves.

Dearest Sesshomaru: why be such a hayta? There's no need to get all profanity-laden on me, hoss. From one writer to another (i.e. to Nat), I thought I'd give tell him a grammar tip. If I could have found his email address, I would have emailed him directly. So what if your oh-so-precious baseball website is occasionally littered with non-baseball info. It's not a trajedy that you have to read something that might actually teach you a thing or two that's not related to sports. Or it it?

"Dearest Sesshomaru: why be such a hayta? There's no need to get all profanity-laden on me, hoss. From one writer to another (i.e. to Nat), I thought I'd give tell him a grammar tip. If I could have found his email address, I would have emailed him directly. So what if your oh-so-precious baseball website is occasionally littered with non-baseball info. It's not a trajedy that you have to read something that might actually teach you a thing or two that's not related to sports. Or it it?"

While I'm pretty sure the beginning of your post was sarcastic and intended as humor, let me clean up the end bit there for you - "trajegy" becomes "tragedy" and "Or it it" becomes "Or is it." Wasn't that edifying and also completely useless and obnoxious?

Yes, I appreciate you correcting my typos! I figured, since I'm being pegged as the high-holy grammarian for simply telling Nat that his periods and commas go inside his quotes, someone would eventually point out that I've made a couple typos. There's a difference between a typo and a grammatical error, however, but I won't go into the difference here, figuring I've terrorized your apparently baseball rumor mill-deprived minds long enough.

editorial correction:

Replace "however" with "instance" in "...(the one after the word however)."

Status of Tangential Topic: Still Dead.

Language is and has always been dynamic. MLA Style Handbook and Chicago Manual of Style are not written by some omniscient power. They're written by people trying to create a system to ease communication. A person isn't "wrong," simply because they differ from one of these systems. Further, whether a punctuation mark goes inside a quote or not in no way affects the interpretation of the sentence. Grow up and stop being a know-it-all.

GetSome. Perhaps you didn't read DoubleSteel's comment, which I'd thought ended this debate. I'll paste it here:

"GetSome – WilfordBrimley is spot on. Harvard’s Bluebook, the Chicago Manual of Style (Rule 5.11, etc.), the MLA Handbook, other standard works and every U.S. Supreme Court brief (and published opinion) I’ve ever read places punctuation marks within quotation marks."

Fair enough, it's just annoying to see someone sit there and basically say "I'm better than you because I use the MLA Handbook or the Chicago Manual of Style and then go so far as to supply sources to prove he is right. People come here to talk baseball, not grammatically correct handbooks and manuals of style. Get over yourself already.

By the way, funny Lords of Kobol post and yes, I can see the irony. :p

Skip K - If that's the case Seattle would be NUTS not to sign him for the league pro-rated minimum!

That pushes Vidro to our bench as a switch hitting career 300 hitter to pinch hit & backup Lopez @ 2B...and Sexson @ 1B.

MEANING: Vidro's $9M 2009 option is history!

NO WAY Bavasi isn't talking to Thomas this very minute! We'd prefer a power LHB, but you don't have all the PR crap with Bonds. MLB.com is already reporting that Bavasi is seriuosly looking into adding the Big Hurt!

It's a "logical" way of removing Vidro's HUGE 2009 option, with a GREAT reason! AND if we are off the hook for the 2009 option of Thomas, that's a major no brainer for the M's.

There's only a "few" AL teams that could use him: Seattle and TB.

I agree DR about those 2 teams..but I wonder about Oakland? The old lightning striking twice theory. They tried to sign him at the end of '06 and he liked it there plus the fans supported him a lot more than the super fickle fans in Toronto, of whom so many were against his signing in the first place and seem to have little tolerance for a very confident 'outsider'. I can say with the perspective of being a beeg Jays fan especially of their DH's. The "Beeg Man" Rico Carty, Cliff Johnson and Dave Winfield. Three things in Hurts' favor. One is that he was hot for 4-5 days and carried the Jays late in the first week this season which means 2 weeks later he hasn’t “lost it”. He was near the top of the league in walks which means he is seeing the ball well enough. Three, he of course is getting paid by the Jays and will cost any team only the veteran minimum to sign. If Hurt agrees to that, and I believe he would because he knows this is likely his last shot anywhere.

Aaron,

The Yankees picking up Frank Thomas would be beyond stupid for the organization. As much as it is against my better judgment, I'm willing to give Cashman enough credibility to know better than to do that!

First, they have Posada who at 35 can no longer play catcher, he just can't! Maybe 80-100 games a year, but he's got to get his at bats somewhere and his numbers in 2007 were an aberation, if for no other fact than he could never duplicate them while playing a full season at catcher again.

Posada's stupid contract that he was signed to for '08-'10 is too much money to be wasted on the bench. He played way above his head in 2007 the same way Beltre did in 2004. The difference was that Beltre was 10 years younger when he had his career year and signed for 3MM less per season.

The point is that you can't hide Posada on the bench and he's getting to old for catcher, so that means DH or 1B, with Giambi that makes a pair to do the deed and Thomas would never agree to play for a team that already is full at his position.

Heck, he's going to be a free agent because he didn't want to ride the pine, so why on God's green earth would he go to New York?! It just amazes me how Yankee fans are never happy with what they have.

You have 15MM a year players hiding under beds, behind couches, and in the closet out there, yet you want one more superstar even though your payroll is 60MM more than anyone else's?! No amount of new stars will make you a contender if you aren't by now.

Oh and what about Melky in CF?! His relocating of Johnny Damon to LF forces them to also use Hideki Matsui/Bobby Abreu/Johnny Damon at DH to get all the bats in the lineup... It's just silly to bring it up and it really irritates me.

I don't care if the Yankees spend more than any other team, it's just the way they piss away careers and hoard players. I mean, to the point that you have superstars playing a backup roll and throwing off the economics of the game because Cashman gets more rope than any other idiot GM in the history of the league.

Its not that Vidro played that poorly last year, a .314 BA is at least solid, he wasn't embarrassing himself. But really this team needs a power boost, and there can be no doubt that Thomas could provide that. Sexson will never be a legit middle of the order bat again unless he can make more consistent contact, and a middle of the order with him, Beltre and Ibanez simply isn't enough to be a WS contender. Adding Thomas to that batting order would give them more patience and more power, and the fact is that this Mariners team is trying to win now. Let Thomas play out the year, then give Clement the DH job in 2009 if you resign Johjima.

Well, really with me I don't get at all why the Jays would sign Barry Bonds. The jerk would have to switch from national to american, and as most know pitching is better in the american league flat out. Not only that, but Barry Bonds isn't a run producer like The Hurt. What did Barry drive in 67?

Ok, what the heck is with the “Posada just can’t play catcher anymore” stuff? He has played more games at catcher the last three years than all but one other catcher in the game, has not had a single years since 1999 where he hasn’t played more than 130 games behind the plate and only one catcher had more games at the position last year. He has a slight shoulder problem which has kept him from behind the plate for just over a week, and he is expected to be the backstop again as soon as Tuesday ~ but now all of a sudden “he just can’t” be a catcher anymore? Huh?

And how in the world could anyone compare one of the best catchers in the history of the game being rewarded with a nice contract after 13 years of HOF-worthy performance for the only team he has ever suited up for to a one-year-wonder at a completely different position who produced numbers no where near the measly lines he normally produces getting rewarded with a mega contract from a completely different team? Huh? The only thing that Posada and Beltre have in common is 6 letters in their last names ~ otherwise you cant find two players with less in common.

I despise the Yankees and will be one of the first to say that Posada’s contract isnt that good at all. But I cant deny the fact that he is one of very few fulltime catchers in the game, produces at a top-5 rate (for his position) and has been one of the faces of that franchise for his entire HOF career. If someone deserves it, its probably him ~ and its not like that team cant afford to give a little extra change back to one of the most dynamic players they have had for the last century-plus. Besides, if Posada hits .260/.360/.460 in 120-130-ish Games behind the plate, he is worth every penny he made…

Also,
“The difference was that Beltre was 10 years younger when he had his career year and signed for 3MM less per season”

Posada ~ 4 year 52.4 Million = Avg of 13 Million a year
Beltre ~ 5 year 64 Million = Avg of 12.8 Million a year
…That’s a difference of only 200K ~ not 3 million…

And:
Posada ~ career .277/.380/.479/.859 line from the Catchers(!) spot
Beltre ~ career .272/.327/.461/.788 from a position which is generally supposed to be an “offensive threat” location
…If Beltre is “worth” 12.8 M, Posada is easily worth much, much, much more than 200K extra. Posada has provided only one sub-.800 OPS since 2000; Beltre has only hit that mark 3 times in his entire 10 year career. Catcher who gives you 550+ PA and an 850+ OPS, or a 3B who generally provides lines floating around the league average? Humm, tough choice there…

The Mets should consider going after Thomas because Carlos Delgado is completely inepty at this point in his career.

"Well, really with me I don't get at all why the Jays would sign Barry Bonds. The jerk would have to switch from national to american, and as most know pitching is better in the american league flat out. Not only that, but Barry Bonds isn't a run producer like The Hurt. What did Barry drive in 67?"

Absolutely. I mean, you are so right. Jeff Francis, Aaron Cook, Ubaldo Jiminez, Derek Lowe, Chad Billingsley, Brad Penny, Brandon Webb, Micah Owings, Randy Johnson, Chris Young, Jake Peavy, Greg Maddux, they all suck. Barry has no chance in the AL. You are right, also, about Barry not being able to produce runs. I mean, he has only slugged .545 and .565 in the last 2 years in a pitchers park with no support while being pitched around at every available oppurtunity.

What a wonderfully intelligent post.

And yes, Barry Bonds can play LF. Anybody that says he cant is either flat out wrong, or just dont think enough for themselves and take John Kruk and Steve Phillips and them too seriously. If Pat Burrell, Adam Dunn, Moises Alou, Josh Willingham and guys like this can play LF, Barry can do it. He still throws decently, not strongly but pretty accurately, and can catch what he can reach. It isnt like he is some old man with no hand eye coordination who is going to flub any ball hit to him. Barry Bonds is probably in the top 10 productive hitters in the game right now. The fact that he doesnt have a job is a joke. I want him on my Mets anyday, I dont care if he is juicing before every game on the megatron in the outfield. His .480 OBP and .550 sluggin are welcome on my team anyday.

DoubleSteel, I don't give a rip about punctuation. I'm not taking sides in this and I think it's great you did research, but it's not applicable to the topic. All I'm saying is that it's more off-base than talking about someone's mama, 'cause at least those things would stem from the original disagreement and probably would be uttered by someone that has been made to look a fool in an argument or debate.

My definition of argument and debate are the same with the difference being how enraged, passionate, or emotional someone gets. I debate over women's lib., but the topic leaves me indifferent for as opinionated as I can be.
However, if you talk about how intelligent Darkstar is than it's an argument because I vehemently disagree with that assertion!

Okay Darkstar, I've already colored for an at least an hour, ate a "Elmer's Glue" straight from the nozzle, and have had my recess.

So, I'm totally prepared for a war of wits with you. I just had to get myself in the right mindset!

As long as you don't start picking your nose and saying girls are gross, then I should be able to hang in there with you.

Otherwise I'll be forced to yield, as I cannot stoop to that level of childish behavior!

By the way your comment was hysterical and I quote... "And how in the world could anyone compare one of the best catchers in the history of the game being rewarded with a nice contract after 13 years of HOF-worthy performance..."

First of one of the best is not really accurate. Here's the short list of catchers that were better...

Johnny Bench
Yogi Berra
Carlton Fisk
Josh Gibson
Michey Cochrane
Gary Carter
Roy Campanella
Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza
Bill Dickey
Thurman Munson
Ivan Rodriguez
Gabby Hartnett
Elston Howard
Ernie Lombardi
Ted Simmons
Jason Kendall
Joe Torre
Buck Ewing
Roger Bresnahan
Lance Parrish
Wally Schang
Biz Mackey
Del Crandall
Al Lopez
Sherm Lollar
Smoky Burgess
Johnny Roseboro

Guys as good... Whatever they lacked, they made up for elsewhere in their game.

Bob O'Farrell (defense)
Steve O'Neill
Mike Scioscia (defense)
Jason Varitek
Terry Steinbach (defense)
Ray Schalk
Terry Kennedy
Bill Freehan
Victor Martinez (offense)
Brad Ausmus (defense)
Darrell Porter
Rick Ferrell
Bob Boone (defense)
Jim Sundberg (defense)
Gene Tenace
Tony Pena
Rollie Hemsley
Johnny Kling
Tom Haller
Mickey Tettleton
Darren Daulton
Walker Cooper
Tim McCarver
Luke Sewell (defense)

By the way, short of producing 80% of his career year for the next 4 seasons, if he makes the HOF it would be because he was a Yankee. His stats would be a fraction of Carter's with far less defensive ability and it took him like 10+ years to get elected after retirement and please don't tell me how great a defensive player Posada is cause I don't think my stomach can handle me laughing at you anymore today! Oh and by the way, if Beltre continues at the pace he's on until he reaches 40 years old, than he'll be a first ballot HOF'r! So go screw yourself with that Beltre is just some average player who had one good year... He's been a solid player with almost no history of injury and for a whinny guy like you said he was in the other blog on here, why does he always play through his injuries and never leaves his position?! This weekend he maintained his average and hit a homerun while making all three of his starts at 3B, not DH, even while nursing a sore hamstring... What the heck do you want from a guy?! He doesn't take days off because he's tired or hurt, he's a leader in the clubhouse, he's consistent, and he's on his way to 3000-3300 H, 1500 R, 600-650 2B, 450-500 HR, 1500 RBI, 200 SB, and he plays GG caliber defense. See how many players that compare with that career, you'll have a hard time making a list in Cooperstown!

So this brings us to my next question... Please tell me what is not worth 12.8MM a year when he's in his prime and the only other guy at his position in the AL that's even remotely comparable, is 5 years older. Over the same stretch of time they are almost exactly the same player, while Lowell benefited from playing that 10-11 year stretch during his prime years unlike Beltre.

Look up Mike Lowell and you'll see their career average is 9 points difference, their career slugging is 6 points difference, and the OBP is 17 points difference. Yet we can rationalize Lowell's deal when we already know his ceiling and Beltre coming into his own isn't even making that much.

I've got an idea Darkstar, how about you just shut up before you look like anymore of a pompous fool than you already are! Oh and Beltre has a better arm, better range, and is a better fielder than the Red Sox third baseman, and yet Lowell is also a GG caliber player, just not better than Adrian.

Beltre may be one of the best to ever play the hot corner defensively in the history of the game. I know he's better than Chavez who has won numerous GGs and I think Rolen in his prime (pre-injury) was on par with him, but there aren't a lot others I can put on that list from when they first televised baseball games until now!

I'm not saying Barry can't play lf. Im just saying over the last couple of years his defense has shrivled. He can certainly catch, but its his staying in the game to finish that worries me.

Well, you have managed to find the correct topic for your post. And it is still absolutely positively stupid.

Beltre* not Beltran

“By the way again I have to compliment you on your use of random statistics and your interesting exclusion of facts, but hey I like to take a stance on a weak argument every once in a while to make a point, too!”

...Huh? Again, WTF are you talking about? So OBP and SLG are just “random statistics”, and the fact that Posada kicks the crap out of Beltre at the plate in every way possible isnt a point? Wow, you must smoke some serious stuff if you cant grasp something as simple as “much better production at the plate is a good thing…”

“By the way, short of producing 80% of his career year for the next 4 seasons, if he makes the HOF it would be because he was a Yankee. His stats would be a fraction of Carter's with far less defensive ability and it took him like 10+ years to get elected after retirement”

Carter ~ 19Yr, .262/.335/.439/.774 ~ career 115 OPS+
Posada ~ 14Yr, .277/.380/.479/.859 ~ career 124 OPS+

Now, add like 4 years of even his worst numbers over the last 5 years (2005) and we see this for Posada:
4860 AB, 1346 H, 307 2B, 219 HR, 2326 TB, 37 SF, 61 HBP, 769 BB (Car)
1896 AB, 0496 H, 092 2B, 076 HR, 0816 TB, 16 SF, 08 HBP, 264 BB (‘05 x4)
6756 AB, 1842 H, 399 2B, 295 HR, 3142 TB, 53 SF, 69 HBP, 1033 BB (Total)

which would give us this comparison to Carter:
Carter 19Yr .262/.335/.439/ .774, 7971 AB, 2092 H, 371 2B, 324 HR, 115 OPS+
Posada 18Yr .272/.372/.465/ .837, 6756 AB, 1842 H, 399 2B, 295 HR, about 119 OPS+
…You were saying???

…“His stats would be a fraction of Carter's”… ***Sigh***

“So this brings us to my next question... Please tell me what is not worth 12.8MM a year when he's in his prime and the only other guy at his position in the AL that's even remotely comparable, is 5 years older.”:

Some similar-aged contemporaries, even leaving that fluke 2004 season in there for Beltre:

Rodriguez 162 Avg ~ .306 / .389 / .578 / .967, 625 AB, 191 H, 34 2B, 44 HR, 147 OPS+
…Arod is only 32 YO, so 3 years older…
M Cabrera 162 Avg ~ .312 / .386 / .540 / .823, 606 AB, 189 H, 41 2B, 31 HR, 142 OPS+
…Cabrera is only 25 YO, so 4 years younger…
D. Wright 162 Avg ~ .313 / .391 / .539 / .930, 604 AB, 653 H, 44 2B, 29 HR, 141 OPS+
…Wright is only 25, so 4 years younger…
S. Rolen 162 Avg ~ .283 / .372 / .507 / .879, 592 AB, 168 H, 41 2B, 28 HR, 126 OPS+
…Rolen is 32, so 3 years older…
T. Glaus 162 Avg ~ .254 / .358 / .498 / .837, 576 AB, 146 H, 32 2B, 36 HR, 120 OPS+
…Glaus is 31, so 2 years older…
A.Ramirez 162 Avg ~ .283 / .337 / .500 / .837, 605 AB, 171 H, 36 2B, 31 HR, 112 OPS+
…ARam is 30, so 1 year older…

And then brining up the distant rear…
*A. Beltre 162 Avg ~ .272 / .327 / .460 / .787, 600 AB, 163 H, 33 2B, 25 HR, 107 OPS+
…So really, its difficult to find 3B that are not better then Beltre ~ not the other way around… Like I told you before, Beltre compares more with Felix, Crede and Inge then he does with the best of the game ~ he is nothing more than a no-OBP, plus-SLG, plus-fielding 3B. The only difference is the fact that he makes 12.8M/YR vs like an avg of 5M-ish for the other three… Beltre = towards the bottom teir of 3B in the league, yet you will rant and rave that he easily deserves 12.8M and is on a HOF course and try to somehow compare his one-year fluke season to one of the better catchers we have seen producing slightly above his normal?

Really, if I could even begin to understand the thought process of such a questionable stance, maybe I would respect it. But as it is, you might as well be comparing Kaz Matsui to Ricky Henderson in a Barry Bonds thread. You are not only like 4 thousand miles from the topic, but also another 4 thousand miles from reality. You take homerism to new levels man, you really do…

You must be digging pretty deep to bitch about my time online! Please don't tell me you are going to tell me that the Yankees who have promoted like 5 pitchers in the last 4 years and only kept three of them on the roster for longer than a cup of coffee has more wild throwers...

Mark Lowe is one of the most irratic throwers in the game, Sean Green has thrown about 15-20 balls in the dirt this season alone, let alone last year when he had real control issues. Most every one of the Mariner pitchers have a splitter or sinker as one of their pitches.

Morrow hasn't exactly been the model of accuracy either... They strike guys out because they change speeds, but most of their stuff travels from home plate to the eyes and batters box to batters box... Current age of pitchers the Mariners have used the last couple years for spot starts and bullpen work: Rowland-Smith 25, Morrow, 23, Lowe 24, Feierabend 22, Jimenez 23, O'Flaherty 23, and White 26.

These guys have had a large workload the last couple years as barely legal drinkers and that's usually where most control issues come from not 35 year old veterans that have learned to harness the strike zone to be effective.

The only reason the Mariners' pitchers can get away with this is there stuff is electric. Lowe before injury hit 102mph in a game on the gun and routinely is in the 96mph range, Morrow has topped out at 98-99mph, and White hits 97-98mph at times. The lefties are a little more control pitchers, but they have no control over their junk pitchers.

I say probably because he's on course currently to have 176 hits this season and he's historically a late starter!

You dont make the hall of fame for playing a liuttle bit below average for a really, really, really long time. He is not even in the top 6 or 7 3B in the league, how can you possibly expect him to be a hall of fame player. I cant actually believe that you are being serious right now. Unless Beltre goes on a Berry Bonds esque run through his late 30's putting up .450 OB/.800 SLG on the regular he has as good of a chance to make the hall of fame as Steve Trachsel.

“First off, I didn't sit at my desk for four hours, I stepped away at times and did other things, unlike you I don't sit and stew over it... If an argument comes to me than I look it up and if it's valid than you run with it!”
then…
“You must be digging pretty deep to bitch about my time online!”

…Ok, again ~ WTF are you talking about? Read it again asshole:
“I mean, you ranted for 4 hours (6:02 AM to 9:57 AM) and didn’t really make a single correct statement!”
…You’ll notice its ONE SENTENCE which is pointing out the fact that its extremely pitiful that a person can post some 4 thousand words over a four hour span and not make a point. I don’t care if you sat there 4 hours, that wasn’t the point ~ you still couldn’t give a truthful or even logical statement while having 4 hours to come up with one! And that’s the point, that’s the pitiful part…

“Please don't tell me you are going to tell me that the Yankees who have promoted like 5 pitchers in the last 4 years and only kept three of them on the roster for longer than a cup of coffee has more wild throwers...”

Ok, I wont tell you its because of 5 pitchers being horrible. What I will do instead, is this:
2007 Posada ~ 1 PB per 85.5 Inn / 1 WP per 21.4 Inn / 1 SB per 11 Inn / 24% CS
2007 Molina ~ 1 PB per 84.5 Inn / 1 WP per 42.3 Inn / 1 SB per 13 Inn / 32% CS
(the WP is actually like one WP off a similar pace as well, give him 1 and it jumps to the 30 range)

…Humm… So for as good as Molina is behind the plate, his rates are rather close to the same. Ok fine, I guess I do have to tell you its because the pitchers are rather horrible… I mean, Posada cant be that bad if he is just as bad as a Def-Specialist when put in that role! See, those rather even rates would lead most logical thinking people to believe its because of the pitching staff more than the catcher. But what was the Yankees pitching staff like? Oh yeah, 3rd worst Control, and Command, and Dominance!!! I mean, is there any surprise that more passed-balls would come along with it? But I guess the “guru” doesn’t have the mental capacity to think of such things as the pitches contributing to the problem…

And please stop the hundreds of words/paragraphs of off topic, unrelated, irrelevant crap as you try to relate everything to the Mariners! I don’t give a F* what you think about a couple random scrub pitchers; everything you said was pointless since the stats just don’t back it up…

BTW, I had to set up my fantasy team for tomorrow, and ended up goofing around on the PECOTA site. While there, I figured I’d see if they had anything on Posada… As if it was meant to be, I found an article detailing his career vs the top Catchers:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=412
Now, if you have access, you will actually see that it’s a comparison of Posada to the benchmarks for catchers (done mid-way through last year.) So where did Posada stand on the all-time Catchers rankings going into 2008? Try 16th… Yeah, 16th ~ before last year ~ and already ahead of 5 HOFers…

They of course didn’t have access to last years totals; but we do! With them, we see this line: 80.2 / 62.0 / 71.1…which moves him up to 14th (ahead of Charlie Bennett and Lance Parrish). If he produces even a .750-ish OPS with similar fielding this year, he passes Mickey Cochrane and Buck Ewing into the 12 spot. After that, Ted Simmons and Mike Piazza are reachable, so Top-10 is within his grasp ~ and not much separates the 10 to 6 spots so…

All in all ~ already statistically the 14th best catcher of all time… already ahead of 5 other HOFers, and almost certainly passing another 2 this year… strong possibility to finish in the Top-6 overall, and at worst will probably finish around 10th… Yeah, I think that validates my “HOF-worthy performance” sentence; and even his current 14th ranking out of thousands upon thousands easily equals “one of the best catchers in the history of the game”. Ever so sorry you don’t like it being the case, but that alone doesn’t begin to even remotely make it any less true…

“Listen to the broadcasters the next time they are nationally televised or listen to an away teams broadcast, so there's no "bias" about his defensive ability and they will all start by mentioning his defense...”

…and that sir, is pitiful. So when a cleanup hitter comes to the plate, they start talking about his defense? Doesn’t that right there tell you that his offense probably sucks? I mean, Omar Vizquel comes to the plate and they talk about his hitting, ability to steal bases and cause problems on the base paths more than his D ~ but when Beltre comes up “well, he has good Defense ya know”… Yeah, don’t hear many people talking about Aramis Ramirez’s Defense when he’s at the plate, and he’s probably a better defender than Beltre! But I guess it makes you think Beltre is some amazing fielder or something, so good for you…

“In baseball you get an error if they think you could make a play and you "touch" the ball, well if you have superior range than you will touch a lot more balls that would've just been base hits... “

…Yeah, see the problem with that is that Beltre was in the bottom half of range as well… Nice try though!

…But reading this thread again, I have to say that you really seem like youre a complete moron with absolutely no comprehension of reality. Really, Beltre and his 100-ish OPS+ in HOF? Beltre compared to Bonds, Mays, Aaron, Yaz and even Winfield? Beltre’s contract after a fluke year compared to a HOF worthy catcher? Said HOF worthy catcher said to be less valuable than Brad Ausmus? There is some stupid stuff posted on this site, but you by far take the cake man…