A's Acquire Matt Holliday

This is Tim Dierkes at his finest right now.

Everyone, Props to Tim for the outstanding coverage. He's all over the links.

Yeah, this website is the greatest thing since the invention of White Castle.

At the beginning of the year it was TB #1 and Oak #2, I havent looked at it since the draft so Im guessing Texas came up huge there, I know they cock blocked Oakland on Smoak (still heated about that).

I still cant figure out why they traded the best pitching prospect in years for another masher in Hamilton. They dont need hitting they need pitching, just like how Oakland doesnt need pitching they need hitters.

And since Smith is leaving Oakland in this deal, Oakland is losing it's team ERA leader.

At the beginning of the year it was TB, Bos, Cin, Tex, with Oak 9th after the Haren Deal.

I am not sure where you get your information....

Texas had the #1 draft according to BA with Oak not making the top 5.

Check your facts, don't shoot from the hip....

"At the beginning of the year it was TB #1 and Oak #2, I havent looked at it since the draft so Im guessing Texas came up huge there, I know they cock blocked Oakland on Smoak (still heated about that)."

It depends on whether you value guys with a higher ceiling, but further away from the majors or guys who are near MLB ready more. Tampa and Oakland have the bulk of their prospects slated to be ready for the bigs in 2009-early 2010. Texas's prospects are further away. It's more a matter of preference than anything. I still think Tampa is #1 though.

Greg Smith will go 14-12 with a 4.29 ERA and the Rockies will finish in 2nd to the Dodgers. They knew they weren't going to resign Holliday, so it was a good move for the Rockies, but a questionable one for the A's. I think they gave up too much.

ya i gotta say all these links are amazing. the minute i saw it here first as always i went onto the mainstays (ESPN, Fox Sports, MLB etc) and nothing was on, and then all these updates. GREAT JOB TIM!! You're quicker than the AP. They've got it fluid and another local writer has Smith on a plane on his way to a physical.

I especially am enjoying the bickering of the A's and Angels fans. Makes me feel like making fun of a mets fan.

"K-Rod blew 7 saves out his 69. How many more saves will Arredondo blow? I don't know - maybe 3 or 4? Go ahead - subtract out those wins and come back down to 96."

In some ways, Arredondo outpitched K-Rod, so who knows if he does blow that many, if he is the closer.

"Second, Tex was with the Angels for TWO MONTHS. He racked up 60+% of his AB's in the NL. While Tex made the club better this was still a club on pace for 95+ wins without him."

This is true. That said, Tex should be a priority

Tim, do you think a third team maybe involved from the NL west? its seems like a high ceiling player(gonzalez) future #2 type starter (smith) and a former rookie of the year for 1 year of holiday who hasnt performed above like a superstar outside of colorado isnt that great for a mastermind like beane.

Look I'm not trying to bash your team or anything, I think that in a couple of years the A's will be a great young team that will be challenging the Angels year in and year out. I just do not see why the A's are getting rid of their good young players for, in my opinion, an overated, one year rental outfielder with inflated stats, when thier team is a couple of years away from competing.

let's not forget. Swisher knocked 35 home runs out in 2007...it's not that big of a stretch to see 30 HR and a .300 avg out of Holliday

"let's not forget. Swisher knocked 35 home runs out in 2007...it's not that big of a stretch to see 30 HR and a .300 avg out of Holliday"

Most of Swisher's homers were hit left-handed and Swisher hit well in Oakland. Very different situation with Holliday.

"Tim, do you think a third team maybe involved from the NL west? its seems like a high ceiling player(gonzalez) future #2 type starter (smith) and a former rookie of the year for 1 year of holiday who hasnt performed above like a superstar outside of colorado isnt that great for a mastermind like beane."

Um, the only thing you really got right there is about Gonzalez' upside. Smith's ceiling is 3-4, not 2 and Street is a shell of what he was when he won ROTY.

Ok, maybe not everyone bashing Krivsky. That was a bit of an exaggeration, but you know what I mean.

this move is absolutely stupid on beane's part unless he plans on trading holliday right away to someone else

Does anyone actually listen to this Athletic Domination guy? He's like an Oakland version of RED SOX NATION.

1: The Athletics will not be signing Rafeal Furcal.

2: The addition of Matt Holliday does not, in any shape, way, or form, make the Oakland A's a favorite to win anything. Not even a wildcard.

You're seriously delusional if you think just adding in Holliday's bat is going to somehow make up for the entire team's lack of offense and virtually non-existent pitching. The A's will be lucky to win 75 games next year.

Logan, according to Rosenthal, the A's do not plan to flip Holliday or trade him in July.

Therefore, either Holliday is a one year rental, or they plan to sign him to an extension.

Keep in mind, though, that he was offered by the Rockies a 4-year contract for $65million, with a 5th year option that would take it to $87million or something, and he turned it down because he wanted an 8-year deal.

Honestly, I think the Rockies are the winners in this one. Historically Holliday's home-road splits say he's more or less a product of Coors. That's not to say he won't put up good numbers. But consider he's moving to a park that's more of a pitchers park and he'll be facing all new pitchers. I just don't see this working out for the A's.

"First of all, I highly doubt that Arredondo is going to be closer next year. He's only had 52 games worth of experience in the MLB-level. A playoff team in Anaheim putting their hopes on a pitcher who has yet to play a full year of games to close out games for them? Especially when they have a guy named Scot Shields who has 20 career saves and a career ERA of 2.92? Really? Because if you really think that Arredondo is closer next year, you're deluded."

I have 2 agree w/him it doesn't make sense. unless they make him a set up man like masterson and then TRY 2 slide him in at closer but I honestly dont see it happening

"Does anyone actually listen to this Athletic Domination guy? He's like an Oakland version of RED SOX NATION."

lol, I think you meant RED SOX DYNASTY, and I was thinking the exact same thing.

I doubt that if Street stayed in Oakland he would have been moved out of the closer's role forever. I know fully well that Ziegler took over the closers role - I'm no dummy. I'm just saying that I doubt Ziegler will be as good next year. Submarine pitchers rarely have the "stuff" to be closers. I'll wait until Ziegler proves me wrong.

What was pythags OBP last year? How many runs did he score? What was his slugging %? The Angels are a better team than the A's and will be better than them again next year. Sea level is going to expose Holliday.

I personally think the Angels will install Arredondo as the closer next year. He has more of a closers makeup than Shields, and being a fan from LA and watching a lot of Angels games, Shields is good, but he really makes more games scary than you would like. His WHIP has gone up every year over the last 3 seasons to 1.34 this last year. I'd rather have Arredondo (who had a WHIP of 1.049 last year) than Shields.

"What was pythags OBP last year? How many runs did he score? What was his slugging %?"

...what?

Even with Holliday, I don't see the A's competing next year, this is a win now move, you've gotta question Beane's intentions on this one.

MrBlake, I like what Ziegler did this year though. You have to give him props for not allowing a run until August 14 this year against Tampa. (That's approximately 35 scoreless innings).

I agree that Ziegler won't do as well next year, but they do have a guy named Joey Devine, who was a 1st round pick of Atlantas from the Kotsay deal, who many believe could end up as closer.

As for Ervin Santana being a beast, while I agree that he has the skill set to be really good, I highly doubt he's ace material. He doesn't show the confidence needed to be considered an ace (see Halladay, Roy; Santana, Johan), but he is a top 2-3 in a rotation.

As a Giants fan, I'm happy about the trade. Holliday is a sure thing hitter. As a Bay Area person, I read a lot about the A's and I think they ripped off Colorado, even if it is only one year worth of Holliday plus a couple of picks.

As one commenter noted, Smith, despite his good ERA is no more than a 3-4 starter (and the prospect book I use pegged him as a #5 starter) thus he might not even have a long career, particularly a finesse fly-ball pitcher in Colorado, even with the humidor balls.

Street was so good that he couldn't even hold the closer position for the A's at the end of the season. That to me means that he wasn't even good enough to set-up because a closer with history who can at least pitch as well as a set-up guy would keep his job, making him a middle reliever at best. Zero value given that he's probably making arbitration money.

So the trade is really Carlos Gonzalez for Matt Holliday. C-Gon actually did worse on the road than at home, despite Oakland being a pitcher's park. In addition, he got worse as the season went on, with the league adjusting to him but not him likewise. He struck out more too, though to be fair, he did increase his walks as well, but not enough to make it good standalone, just relative to how he was before. In addition, his MLEs in the minors was very poor.

And generally, top prospect hitters coming out the Arizona farm system seem to be over rated over the years, for example, none of the Baby-Backs coming out of the year Brandon Webb made the majors, which was considered a good year for them, did much of anything in the majors.

So even if it is only a year of Holliday, I don't think the players they got for him will match during their careers what he could do in one season, in terms of value-add (if you simply sum up everything, then maybe, but not when looking at value over replacement or average player).

Personally, I thought the A's were ripped off in the Haren trade, they got a lot of bodies but I wasn't too impressed with the haul.

So I guess Colorado did OK if they were looking to add bodies, they accomplished that, but I think overall their team didn't get much and was weakened.

Though, with Fowler ready to come up, that could help even things up on the whole. Still, they were in the World Series just a couple of season's ago, seems like they are throwing in the towel when they should have been going for it.

Street and Tavares will be going to the White Sox. Both are players KW really really wanted in the past. Now he can get them in one trade.

Devine is good I'll give the A's that. But, like all new up and coming closers, they have to SHOW they can handle the stress of 9th inning situations. A lot of relievers have "closers stuff" but very few can translate that into consistent success. Just look at guys like Scot Shields: he has a good moving 91-94mph fastball that's heavy, and a hammer of a curveball, but he has shown he can't really handle the stress of the 9th inning. Same thing with another ex-Angel: Derrick Turnbow. Terrific stuff, but couldn't translate it to success. Street was that way this last year too. He has closers stuff, but lost his confidence. Manuel Corpas for the Rockies this year, the list could go on of tried-closing pitchers that didn't go well, and also other pitchers that have the stuff to be a closer, but not the mentality. That is the issue at hand.

And yeah, Santana (Ervin) isn't an ace yet, but he has the stuff to be one. Any pitcher that has a great live 94-98MPH fastball, a hard breaking high 80s slider, and a change-up for show, is ace material. Now, whether or not he will eventually take up the mantle as ace is to be seen, but for now, he is a fantastic #2.

Arredondo will be closing. remember when krod was young and with no experiance became a closer. same situation this kid is nasty and is going to closing for them

"What it means cubbyfan23 is that the Angels won 100 games this year. To me, pythags are a waste of time. In the record book it shows the Angels had 100 wins and the A's finished a distant third. Games are played on the field, not on a computer"

I believe we have a winner for dumbest post on this thread. Congrats angelsfan67. Let me ask you, where do you think the statistics that make up the "computer numbers" come from? Do we pull them out of thin air? Or are they accrued on the field? The Angels won 100 games this year. But this year is over. Pythags is a great way to project future value. The Mariners didn't look at their Pythags from 2007 and misinterpreted how good their team actually was. After a win-now trade, they lost 100 games this season. Thinking the Angels are a 100 win team next season is ridiculous. But hey, keep believing the Angels are a 100 win team.

Please let the Rays be that 3rd team

please

obsessivegiantscompulsive:

i think your evaluation doesn't accurately reflect the value of street and gonzalez. your dead on with greg smith but people forget that street is only 25 years old with a top notch fastball and stuff. he had a real rough patch but straightened out some of his issues towards the end of the year and really its been his only bad year. if he has done it before who is to think he can't do it again? gonzalez was one of the better stars coming out of the d-backs system and while his outlooks have faded a bit he too is young. the last young promising outfielder who struggled and was traded out of arizona's farm system was Carlos Quentin and I wouldn't call him over rated. i like the trade for the rockies. I wonder how it makes any sense for the A's unless they really don't believe in these guys.

You guys do realize that the Angels had either Kotchman or Tex' this entire season, both of whom are currently better than an unproven Morales

Does this mean that the A's will go out and spend some money on some FA starting pitching?

Perhaps they sign someone like Burnett or Lowe. How about...dare I say Oliver Perez?

Do you think that by dealing Gonzalez the A's have opened up a chance to trade for a new CF? Or do you think that Ryan Sweeney/Rajai Davis can get the job done?

"Arredondo will be closing. remember when krod was young and with no experiance became a closer. same situation this kid is nasty and is going to closing for them"

Derman, that's where you're wrong. K-Rod actually had about 175.2 innings under his belt before he became their closer (Call up in '03, 80+ innings in both '04 and '05.) They gave him a couple of chances, to wet his ear, per se. But he didn't actually get the job until his '05 season.

With that being said, while I agree he will be their closer, I still think they will slowly transition him into the role. Shields will start the season as their closer until one of two things happen: a) he gets injured; and b) Shields doesn't cut it in the role next year.

I say, by the '10 season, Arredondo will be their closer, at the latest. But

Angels fans are being way too defensive. You guys are scared, its obvious. And for all you guys who say theres no way the A's are getting Furcal, you probably thought there would be no way they would get Holliday either. Plus, Ken Rosenthal has mentioned the A's were aggressively pursuing Furcal and intend to contend next year. And please Angels fans stop talking about Kendry Morales...talk about a guy who has done nothing to prove he can hit in the majors. Texiera will leave, K-Rod will leave and the Angels will be screwed. Vlad is getting worse every year. Nice middle of the lineup with an aging Vlad and Torii Hunter LOL.

Where the hell did this come from? This is so bad for the As. I guarantee you they're making this trade and then going to trade Holliday to another team. It wouldnt make sense otherwise. Knowing Billy Beane he'll get tons of prospects.

OaklandOwns, you sound like an idiot. Shut up. The Angels won 100 games this year, one Coors field-inflated Matt Holliday is not going to make that much of a difference. I would be anything in the world that the Angels still finish ahead of the A's in 2009.

"OaklandOwns, you sound like an idiot. Shut up. The Angels won 100 games this year, one Coors field-inflated Matt Holliday is not going to make that much of a difference. I would be anything in the world that the Angels still finish ahead of the A's in 2009."

Once again, the Angels should have not won 100 games, and I would not bet on it in the future at all given the current roster.

That being said, I'm sure they'll sign some guys this offseason still and win the division. But they were not a 100 win team past the W-L record (I know that's a crazy thing to say but if we're trying to measure future success here and not past, they did not play 100 win ball). Very lucky team.

"What it means cubbyfan23 is that the Angels won 100 games this year. To me, pythags are a waste of time. In the record book it shows the Angels had 100 wins and the A's finished a distant third. Games are played on the field, not on a computer."

Then you are an idiot.

Here is what people cannot ever wrap their minds around who don't get stats. We are not trying to evaluate how successful the 2008 season was. The Angels won 100 games. Great! They had a great season, great success, etc. That's wonderful.

The business of baseball now in the offseason is to evaluate the potential for FUTURE success. You do not take a team that statistically won 88 games and really won 100, and assume they will win 100 in 2009. You assume they won 88, gear up for the next year. How else would you measure future success and build a team? If you go off simply regular wins and losses, you're hedging your bets on all the lucky bounces going your way for another season, and the odds are against you there.

"What was pythags OBP last year? How many runs did he score? What was his slugging %?"

Also this is killer because you're saying that numbers that Pythagorean is based off of are important (OBP/SLG) yet it as a number to evaluate a team's level of talent is not. Amazing.

If the Angels sign Tex they'll likely be a better team than they were last year. Hell even if they don't sign him, they are easily still a top AL team. They have a young starting staff that has yet to reach their peak and a bullpen even without KRod still a top pen.

The A's are a team with a lot of problems, more than Holliday can fix even if he puts up Coors field numbers. One power hitter doesn't do much when the team already has the worst offense in the AL. They need a table setter and a lot of players suddenly reaching their promise. And a solid starter would be nice. Until then, they're still a third place team at the moment.

RuffinTumble

Tims getting laid. Lol. Hes too busy.

What seems like 'running in place' is Beane's painful method to increase the value of his chips to ultimately build a better team. Haren, Harden and Blanton were traded because A's farm system was just plain depleted. I have to admit that the return from all the trades didn't impress me too much, nevertheless it DID improve the farm system with potential 'maybe high' upside players and good enough value trade chips. I agree that this process isn't necessarily exciting, but it's one way build a team with a low payroll, slow and steady...
Some people argue that Holliday's departure will net Oakland with couple of draft picks but really, how well have they done with recent draft picks... I don't know if the pick opportunity necessarily means a good thing with Beane & Co.

510hope: Except that last year wasn't the first time he's done this. This is ongoing. He acquires prospects, let's them build themselves up a little and trades them. It's a terrible idea. Billy Beane is stupid. There, I said it. He's an overrated moron.

There are other options with a low payroll. You could, here's an idea: keep those prospects you got, and let your team become one of the best in baseball like the Rays. Or you could have a good development system like the Twins and constantly have talent coming up to help in the big leagues.

Billy Beane's "strategy" hasn't taken him anywhere, and likely never will.

@tsizzle

I think you've hit on an important point right there, this team needs a better development system and even better scouts to pick out better prospects. I can't say this for certain but it actually is unfortunate that A's have consistently put up decent performances for the season to screw themselves out of earlier impact draft picks as the Rays have had the opportunity to cash in on. On a brighter note, there is also a chance that Beane could've messed that up by following the paths of the Pirates or the Nationals.

However, I wouldn't go as far as calling Beane a moron, but I believe there are few pieces that he is either ignoring or overlooking in terms of building a successful team as a whole.

Where is all this Beane bashing coming from? I guess you are lucky if people remember beyond last year in this day in age.

"Where is all this Beane bashing coming from?"

Frankly Beane's successful legacy will be more about how he changed the game rather than his success with the A's. He got other teams to see the value of OBP and made James' sabermetrics the way of baseball management. However as someone already said, he's always missing a key piece. Even the years when the A's were a good team, they were missing something that made them a great team.

I'm still scratching my head on this one... Obviously the Oakland offense was a huge issue keeping them from being within a reasonable distance from contention. With only one year left on the contract, this seems like a 'win-now' type deal.. Even with the addition of Holliday, the offense doesn't look decent unless some young guys step-up big (which could very well happen).. After trading Haren, Harden and Blanton last year, I don't know that the pitching staff is going to have what it takes to make up for an average offense and make this a team that plays over .500 ball.

Billy Beane is a smart guy and I have a lot of respect for him, so I'm sure he has his reasons.. and they are probably pretty good.