Braves To Acquire Javier Vazquez

"Winner in garland"

Does not compute.

This deal just keeps getting better and better for the White Sox.

Next move Dye for Bailey and a prospect...if Konerko is moveable go for it but i doubt it. Hr may sign a good FA

This trade is now garbage for the Braves.

4?

wow

I cant fathom why Frank Wren would do this. Flowers and Morton plus 2 others for Vazquez. This might be the worst trade I have ever heard of. I guess this is karma for trading swisher for nothing. Hopefully we will get Peavy for a bag of balls ? Not likely lol.

Victorino is a punk.

Well it keeps getting worse and worse Braves fans. DOB just said he heard it was Flowers, Lillibridge and our supposed third basemen of the future John Gilmore. WTF!!!!

Based on the the comment that Flowers MIGHT be the prospect in the deal, I'm thinking that part hasn't been finalized yet. My guess is that Flowers will be the 3rd prospect if the Braves and White Sox can come to terms on some sort of financial compensation for the Braves. If the Sox were willing to eat 3 or 4 million of Javy's salary over the next 2 years, losing Flowers becomes much more palatable. Of course, if they don't come to terms on the amount of money changing hands, they probably have already agreed on who would replace Flowers in the deal. That could explain why he's not being reported as a definite piece yet.

This just keeps getting better. Hopefully it gets finalized by early tomorrow, I can't wait to see who we get.

"Once again, while pitching in the American League and in a hitters park, Vazquez posted a 15-8 record, a 3.74 ERA, a 127 ERA+, and a 213/50 K/BB ratio in 217 innings. To me, when translated to Atlanta, that translate to being pretty close to a number two starter. As far as I can tell, he at the very least has the potential to be that kind of pitcher."

I can't tell if you're arrogant or just helpful :/

2007 is an outlier, his numbers have trended downward since 04. Yes he's good for 200 innings and 200 k's but thats about it. An ERA + of 98? That isn't even close to a number 2. You take last year and his age into account and you're not dealing with tons of upside.

Is he a bad pitcher? I suppose not, he's dependable. But depending on the FOUR players surrendered to get him, this deal could be pretty bad or just ok.

Flowers, Morton, Lillibridge and Gilmore

That Kenny Williams can deal.....

Doubtful the WhiteSox will eat even $1 from JV's contract. Braves have competition from the Mets for JV and will pony up.

My guess is the trade will end up Javy and Boone for Flowers, Lilliebridge and Kris Medlen, who has impressed in the AFL as well.

KW couldn't have missed Medlen whilst scouting Flowers. Considering Jenks will become very expensive after two seasons, Medlen will be good leverage as he projects to a future closer.

A very good move the for the SOX imo.

"Vazquez should end up being a decent 3/4 for Atlanta, but giving up a top prospect like Flowers for him was totally unnecessary considering his price tag."

Posted by: scribbletone | December 02, 2008 at 07:46 PM

Could not agree more. There has to be more to this deal than what reporters are leading us to believe.

Kenan and Kel has a point.
Still White Sox might eat some of that contract or more might be coming from the Wite Sox's side that isn't in the report yet.

It doesn't look like Morton will be in the deal, at least that's what O' Brien thinks. If that's true, than the Braves did very good! He thinks it'll be a low minors LH relief pitcher, so some of you can stop bitchin about getting a decent pitcher!! I mean damn, he's better than Paul the Byrd man, right?

Hey Bravesfan89...the Medlen inclusion in the deal is just my hunch. I heard his named mentioned on WSCR in chicago about 1 1/2 hours ago as being one of the 5. If he was on the list I would bet KW would choose him.

this just keeps getting better :D

Victorino is a punk.

Jealous MUCH???

haha. That punk could've easily been the NLCS MVP and if there was an NLDS he would've been that too.

Oh and OklahomaBrave,

I'll trust my farm system that's produced Utley, Howard, Hamels, Rollins, Madson over the last several years. What exactly has yours done???

Flowers and Lillibridge are confirmed in the deal on the radio and also at MLB.com.

I do believe Javy will thrive again in the NL. His problems are mostly in his head and he should thrive under Bobby Cox. However, he was toast in Chicago and the bandbox that is US Cellular.

It's true, as long as Alexei Ramirez essentially refuses to take walks, he'll never be able to reach his full potential and be a truly good baseball player. You can't post a .320 OBP and be a good ballplayer unless you have stunning power and/or defense. Ramirez needs to either walk more or bat .320 every year or he'll never be able to be more than an average player.

Not to get off the subject of the trade, but those saying ramirez is overrated don't know what they're saying. Yeah, is OBP wasn't high, but he had a decent BA, HR, and RBI's, plus, if I'm not mistaken, he batted around .400 with RISP which was one of the tops in MLB, not just the AL but all of baseball, and he was a rookie who wasn't even expected to make the majors. If that's overrated then someone pass the pipe.

Have to agree with Scribbletone and Braves89. Seems like Braves are giving up a decent amount, especially if they are still paying Vazquez's salary.

I am willing to wait to see what the complete deal is, but I think the SOX might make out good here, if they can dump the salary and get good prospects.

philsWSchamp,

You do realize that Cole Hamels is the only guy from that list that's under 28 right?

Guys from the Braves system under 28: Brian McCann, Yunel Escobar, and Kelly Johnson. That's not too shabby considering what they supposedly have in the pipeline.

For his first pro major league season, Ramirez did pretty effing good, and he's young so he's only going to get better.

Don't hate.

The real question mark in this deal seems to be Gilmore. The guy really does not seem to have anything to offer unless Kenny Williams sees something in him that nobody else does.

"You do realize that Cole Hamels is the only guy from that list that's under 28 right?

Guys from the Braves system under 28: Brian McCann, Yunel Escobar, and Kelly Johnson. That's not too shabby considering what they supposedly have in the pipeline."

Don't forget JJ, Jair Jurrjens.

So far it looks like a 4 for 1 deal, but in reality, it's Flowers for Vasquez straight up. Lills was an added bonus to acquiring Gonzo but he was not in the plans for us. The other two, well, they'll be the other two for a while.

This trade could actually help the Braves if they will now pay up for peavy Now for the Chances of getting either Divisional, or W/C spot in '09. Cox might be able to do something with Vasquez, his stuff is not that bad really and his head might get better getting him out of the AL anyway and being able to face a pitcher rather than a DH every 9 hitters. I like this and Braves fans may actually get something much better than an injured and overpaid Burnett also, especially if they will pony up to Towers now before Chipper gets to old.

Baleen, I didn't realize that Vazquez's contract didn't kick in until the year AFTER he signed it. You are right though, he is a free agent after 2010, not 2009. I should probably try clicking on actual articles rather than reading headlines and looking at dates.

How can someone like Alexei Ramirez be overrated? His OBP numbers? Give me a break -- he had marks above .350 in June and July while registering an OPS above .850 between June and August. Those are mere flashes of what he can do with time -- the kid turns 27 next season -- in spite of NO time in the minors after jumping to MLB straight from Cuba. Overrated my foot.

This deal is pretty good for both the Sox and the Braves. The latter looks good for obvious reasons, but let's look at the White Sox's situation:

3B: Josh Fields is really, really strong, but his growth has stalled some and many feel he will have to hit LF in time. It's not like Gilmore is a gem at 3B but he's an insurance policy after letting Crede go.

SS: Sox offered arbitration to Orlando Cabrera, and my guess is he won't take it. This means they need an insurance policy at short and Lillibridge is a good depth guy. I don't think very highly of him and feel that Beckham at 2B and Ramirez at SS would make an excellent dynamic up the middle, but to each his own.

P: Javier Vazquez cannot pitch under pressure. He showed this with the Mets and now with the White Sox. The Braves will soon understand that JV is inconsistent from one year to the next. Who cares if he's good for 195-200 IP or potentially 200K a year if you don't know what you're getting in terms of win share, ERA, and so on? Jon Garland can pitch a whole lot of innings each season but he's not worth much beyond that. Should Garland have stronger trade value based on that level of reliability? I don't see the logic in that argument at all.

Santos Rodriguez is in there as a young and more reliable bullpen arm. I like him and think he'll break into the bullpen by mid-season at the latest.

And Tyler Flowers at catcher? I don't see him as that great a catcher defensively, but he can HIT. You are truly a fool if you think he's a better catching prospect than Matt Wieters, though; comments like that immediately ruin your credibility as a thread contributor. Wieters is the best catcher in the minors, period. But Flowers is pretty good and I think he's a nice insurance policy for the future beyond AJ, the most despised active player in the game today, and Toby Hall (blech).

In short, not a bad lot for both. The White Sox get added insurance and hole-fillers while the Braves take a gamble and add to bullpen depth.

Ok, 2 things.

First, I can't believe I am chipping in on this non-sensical argument about Alexei Ramirez. First, this was his first sight of American pitching, period. He batted .290 in the Majors when most experts saw him heading for short season A Ball. Second, yes, most offensive catigories are overrated. However, it's the old saying, "Don't tell me how you hit. Tell me when you hit it." Alexei set a Major League record with 7 Grand Slams as a rookie. Obviously, he was clutch for the Sox. There were several months that him and Quentin alone carried that team.

Second, I don't know if this is Kenny maybe buying up prospects to make a splash and throw in his hat on the, increasingly annoying (just like the Santana rumors were) Peavy Sweepstakes. Unless, one or two of these "highly regarded" prospects can be flipped for something bigger and better, this was a deal for the Braves. This is coming from someone who has called this a Christmas Miracle to Sox fans. That is, before I found out that there was almost NO MLB-Ready talent in the deal.

AtlantaBred,

There are several things wrong with that list.

2) Tim Hudson has a mutual option for 2010 for $12 million - he'd be a moron not to pick it up after coming off huge surgery. It's either that or a lower incentive based contract for one year on another team. He'll likely be with Atlanta for 2010.

3) Vazquez is signed at $11.5 for '09-'10. The Braves will have him for two years. Barring injury, he'll likely be a Type A after the 2010 season.

Then there's a lot of predictions who no one knows at this point will come true or not.

Victorino at 28 or Francouer at 24.

philsWSchamps - I'd rather have Victorino at 78 than Francoeur at 24.

Vazquez is a gutless bum who is incapable of pitching in big spots. But he should be great if the Braves plan on losing 90 games again.

"Cubbyfan: The Cubs would have to eat *most* of Marquis' contract which would defeat the purpose because you still won't have enough money for Peavy..."

If they moved him I think they could get away with paying about 2 or 3M off his deal this year, which would leave them with around 6-7.5 off. I think there are a few teams out there that would pick up Marquis for next to nothing at that price.

You gotta love Phillie fans...they win something for the first time in forever and now they're big mouth tough guys again. Amazing. You have one good pitcher and a nice bullpen. You can't outslug people every year, ask the Yanks.

"Tim Hudson's "Mutual Option" only vests if he pitches a certain number of innings which like I said, he won't."

Multipe sites said its a mutual option worth $12 million.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/2005-02-28-hudson-roundup_x.htm?POE=SPOISVA

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2002416

http://www.bravesnewsworld.com/2005/03/01/tim-hudson-extension/

Also, Andy Pettitte has a career 3.96 ERA in the playoffs and a 3.89 ERA in the regular season. I guess we should surmise that he is a bad big game pitcher right?

*rolls eyes*

You gotta love Phillie fans...they win something for the first time in forever and now they're big mouth tough guys again. Amazing. You have one good pitcher and a nice bullpen. You can't outslug people every year, ask the Yanks.

Posted by: njbraves | December 02, 2008 at 08:56 PM

It is true, that I too hate Phils fans but you can't win it all with just "1 good starter and a nice pen". They Have Ruiz, Howard, Utley, Rollins, and Victorino.

Did you just leave our old friend Freddy Garcia off that list??? lol how dare you! lol

And nobody is J.S. PhilswsChamp..... but Wren has done a phenomenal job thus far with this team. I think this is one of those underrated moves that will be looked back on 10 months from now and looked at as one of the best pickups of this offseason.

nrmax88 - something about intelligent, sane Mets fans makes me all warm and fuzzy on the inside. Hope for a better tomorrow type stuff.

If I were Minaya I'd sign 2 non-closer bullpen pieces(like Cruz, Ohman) and let them battle it out in S/T. Then I'd get Manny.

Andy Pettite, Curt Schilling, and I'm sure plenty of others, disagree with you."

Yes clearly good pitchers pitching good is a huge surprise.

Sorry, it's not a repeatable skill.

We know, your a cubs fan, any kind of postseason success is not a skill, let alone a repeatable skill for you bunch of losers. hahahahahah fortunately, for the other 29 teams pitching in big games is a repeatable skill, see 05 White Sox

o and for your example freddy garcia whos career era is 4.07 and career postseason era is 3.11 you pathetic joke

Your right we should have just kept the prospects and signed D-Lowe. What was his numbers like when he left Boston? He was how old? So 18 million a season for some guy who has a similar career with no where near the stuff makes sense because we gotta give up some guy who hit good in Arizona? Who is the last prospect the Braves traded who became any good? Calm down people do the names Bruce Chen, Andy Marte, Wilson Betemit mean anything? If Adam Wainwright and Jason Schmidt are the best guys we have traded then I think were doing okay. Gotta give up something to get something, anybody remember how Charlie Morton was doing in Arizona last year? I think he was one of the top pitchers and now everybody is willing to get rid of him, what about Brandon Jones and Lillibridge? 2 years ago these guys were the darlings of our farm system now there just toss ins. Give it a rest prospect lovers, you have to give to get, and since the Braves are so cheap this is the only way they can get anything. I know that the farm is how you build your team but homegrown talent traded for major league talent is the real way to build a team. Couple vets and a couple rooks tossed in together otherwise your the Royals.

my daddy can beat up your daddy.

Phillies fans, your team just won the WS ou have nothing to prove. Your team is good, and better than the braves in 09.

This is a good deal for the braves and the sox. Vasquez is better than people give him credit for, the problem is he can be BAD. Considering how much money the Braves have to spend i doubt the fact that he makes 11 million is even an issue.

i went to 70-75 games..ramirez is the real deal.. if peter gammons thinks so, and every hall of fame reporter then i think he is..his defense is second to none.. he made a few sloppy errors but he made plays no one could make or has made.. his defense is unreal.. 90% of the errors were rushed..he is young and will gain more composure.. he grew light years from day1 in spring to the end of the season.. he was a stud...which is why he came up second to a sure superstar in longoria in the voting.. and his numbers were close considering his change from cuba to the US and contreras made that even easier. adding too much depth at positions like ss,3b,cf,SP,RP,C can never be too much.. everyone is looking for a plus ss or shorstop or for them as prospects so williams splashed big with this.. and flowers could be a true stud.

i am still shocked at the ramirez comment..it made me sign up so i could post this response.. i can't believe someone who obviously know little about ramirez would say something like that b/c he doesn't take walks? he set a rookie grand slam record.. batted in the 300 range for most of the season had a nice rbi count.he sees the ball really well.. this was his first year which is the most difficult for anyone and he kicked ass!! go alexie. he was a carre. with plus defense a 285-310 hitter with 30 hr potential playing shortstop with a great arm to boot..and your complaining? and complaining about adding depth to arguably one of the 3 most important positions in the game? uhh i think your nuts. lillibridge could be used as trade bait to get something else say a center fielder.

this javy and boone logan thing has made my week!!! early Christmas in Chicago!!!

i dont, didnt he just get hurt again, freddy was great but he cant be relied on to ever throw even half a season

why not sign someone ike randy johnson or anoter old vet for cheap who wont (or has a lesser chance of) get hurt tho?

"First, I can't believe I am chipping in on this non-sensical argument about Alexei Ramirez. First, this was his first sight of American pitching, period. He batted .290 in the Majors when most experts saw him heading for short season A Ball."

There's a flip side to that - this was American pitching's first sight of Alexei Ramirez. As for the future, I think its fair to suggest his production could very well decrease now that MLB knows he swings at everything.

Also, to echo a previous point made, he's 27 - not exactly much development left.

Not saying he's a BAD player, just not as good as ChiSox fans think.