Phillies Re-Sign Jamie Moyer

Cool.

Although a 2 year deal to a 45+ year old pitcher= sketch.

But, now Park makes sense, as insurance for Moyer and Happ.

Or there's a trade in work
involving Happ, although that's unlikely.

Thank God! Will Moyer replicate what he did last year? Highly unlikely. But I like the presence he has and how much he helps the younger pitchers (meaning, compared to him, everyone - lol). Especially since Happ and/or Carrasco are likely to head north with the team. Plus, this makes it that much more likely that Park will be in the pen and NOT given a starting job (whew!)

"They were talking about how walks are overrated."

LOL! That's WIP for you!

Blanton SUCKS.

Tim, lol on the WIP comment.

No one (that has a brain) can stand that piece of garbage.

if nothing else he's be a good tutor. we had to get this one done. im alittle scared our 4 and 5. moyer,happ,kendrick,carrasco. not to mention which blanton and myers we'll see. i just hope carrasco looks great this spring or the big guns hit like 06. what moves are they talking about?

crap
the marlins slayer is back
there goes the division

oh and i agree with the others that said Jamie is a pro's pro. Always works hard, works with the kids.

I'm happy with the rotation as it is. Get me one more right handed bat and I'll be ready for 2009.

To me Park takes on the role of Kris Benson last year, but at least he'll make the ML club instead of Benson languishing in Lehigh Valley. If he does OK, great, if not he's just insurance.

Also I highly doubt Carrasco will be in the majors at the start of the season. Since we have Kendrick, Happ, Park & Eaton (unfortunatly) battling for the 5 spot. Let Carrasco stay down and work on his stuff more and hoepfully he'll become the #2 guy he's projected to be.

Blanton SUCKS.

Posted by: AtlantaBred | December 15, 2008 at 01:40 PM

Yeah...okay...

That must be the reason he didnt lose a single game when pitching for the Phils last year. Not to mention his excellent post season performance.

Lets see...what were the Braves...18 games UNDER .500 last year? Yeah, though so.

Lets see...what were the Braves...18 games UNDER .500 last year? Yeah, though so.

the funny thing is it wasn't Blanton, Moyer or Myers that killed the Braves. It was Hamels, Kendrick and Happ (2 games).

AdropOFvenom,

I wouldn't expect less of a Mets fan. As long as Jamie continues to get the corners he'll do just fine. He keeps himself in great shape (as youd noticed if you watched the WS game 3 when he dove to shovel the ball to Howard and the runner was out).

Also if you notice he doesn't throw that hard, as long as he stays mentally ahead of the hitter he'll do just fine.

I'm willing to bet after 2 years he wants to re-up again.

Oh and nothing can be as bad as the Eaton signing. He was horrible the first time not to mention the second time. He can't even get Low A hitters out.

Oh watching Chuck James pitch the past year plus was much worse than seeing Eaton at the end....

bartendermlb,

i have to disagree. I had box seats for the Lakewood Blueclaws as they were motoring towards the SAL championship. Guess what game i went to. YOu guessed it, Adam "FRIGGIN" Eaton. He was absolutely horrible. 18 year olds were taking batting practice off of him.

Here's his line:

Team League W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
LAK SAL 0 1 9.82 1 1 0 0 0 3.2 5 4 4 1 1 2 1.00 .333

TOP THAT!

"Oh watching Chuck James pitch the past year plus was much worse than seeing Eaton at the end...."

Yeah.... no. Chuck James is a kid making crumbs. Adam Eaton was always pitiful and he got signed to a big multi year deal. Comparing the two is foolish.

I just don't believe it's ever a good investment to ever invest so heavily in aging players on more then one year contracts. The further up in age they get, the risk of injuries increase, the risk of decline increase. Very rarely do you ever get your money's worth there, even with ones who keep themselves in great shape. Moyer is 46, and Ibanez is 36 (37 in June).

Really, the only 35 year old or higher who I think will be worth his next contract is Lowe, and that's because he has a remarkably clean injury history, and is reliant on a Sinker (Movement, not velocity) so even if he loses a touch of velocity he should be okay....and before you try to compare him to Moyer, realize there's a decade in between the two in Age.

It was never really about a Mets/Phillies rivalry or anything, but more a larger issue against multi-year contracts for aging players. More often then not, it's a bad investment, and I think the Phillies just made 2 of them.

but like Aduncaroo said above.

between the choice of moyer for 2 and eaton or kendrick for 1 and someone else for the second, I'll take Moyer in a heartbeat. Moyer was just negotiating off a great year for a 45 year old. I would have rather seen a one year with fairly easily reached incentives for the second year but maybe the front office feared additional fallout after how they handled Burrell.

"But Moyer relies on movement and location over velocity also. I would be more worried about Ibanez then Moyer, and I also would take Moyer for 2/15 over Lowe at 4/60. Just my opinion.

Posted by: nrmax88 | December 15, 2008 at 03:28 PM "

True, but as I said, Moyer has a DECADE on Derek Lowe. The older you get, the risks go up exponentially. A 35 year old Moyer would be a decent investment. A 46 year old Moyer is not.

I think you would be absolutely out of your mind insane to take Moyer for 2/15 over Lowe for 4/60, being fully honest.

Rotation looks set now

1) Park
1A) Hamels
3) Myers
4) Moyer
5) Blanton

You want to put Park at the top of your fantasy rotation?

Moyer is probably going to regress to a 4.50 ERA.

That being said, you usually can't get that for less than 8MM/yr on a 2 year deal. If Moyer stays healthy (and that's the big flag, but he is a finesse pitcher and a soft tosser, so its likely), I think he'll be fine.

I don't think the Phillies are done. I still think they go after Beltre, but that's just a hunch...

The two years Moyer has been with the Phillies, he went 14-12 in 07, and 16-7 on 08.

He got better with age!

with our offense, I am sure he'll still post 12-15 wins.

Bill James Handbook has him going:

12-10 / 193 IP / 203 H / 54 BB / 114 K / 4.23 ERA

Moyer is probably going to regress to a 4.50 ERA.

That being said, you usually can't get that for less than 8MM/yr on a 2 year deal. If Moyer stays healthy (and that's the big flag, but he is a finesse pitcher and a soft tosser, so its likely), I think he'll be fine.

I don't think the Phillies are done. I still think they go after Beltre, but that's just a hunch...

Posted by: melonis rex | December 15, 2008 at 04:16 PM

You are right about them not being done, but I think it is more likely they would go after Atkins. He is under team control for 2 years (instead of 1 for Beltre) and is best friends with Utley so he may be more likely to sign an extension for less money to stay on the same team as Utley. I really hate when the Phillies give up young talent for guys that will be gone in 1 year (Garcia). Thats why the Blanton aquisition was good, he was under control for 2 1/2 years and the players they gave up weren't likely to be major league ready by then anyway.

The thing that gives you some hope that Moyer won't regress too too much is his groundball rate. He turned 20 flyballs into ground balls from 07 to 08

Maybe that's flukey, but I tend to think it indicates he's doing something different with his plan of attack. Which works into a strength of the Phils, infield defense

""Thanks for the WS, Jamie, here's your 8mil."

More like, you are coming off an excellent season and have 12 consecutive years of 26+ starts, here's your 8 mil

Oh I like the signing by the way. I see him getting 12-14 wins next year at least, ERA prolly around 4.20-4.30. There are plenty of ptichers who get paid more than $8M to put up similar or worse numbers than that.

AJ Burnett had an ERA over 4 last year and he signed for 80 Million. And ONLY in contract years did he not get hurt... Moyer is in great shape, not for his age, for anyone's age.. he's an athelete.

I'm happy to have him back.

Which rotation would you rather have?

Santana
Pelfrey
Lowe
Maine
Uehara/Niese

Hamels
Myers (euch)
Moyer
Blanton
Kendrick/Happ/Park

I thought so...of course, the Phillies bullpen and bench is better than the Mets, while the offenses are about even (the Mets put up much better overall numbers, while the Phils hit more HRs and hit in the clutch). I'm looking at the NL like this:

y-Philadelphia 93-69
x-New York 90-72
Florida 85-77
Atlanta 76-86
Washington 71-91

z-Chicago 95-67
St. Louis 88-74
Houston 86-76
Milwaukee 80-82
Cincinnati 77-85
Pittsburgh 69-93

y-San Francisco 81-81
Arizona 79-83
Los Angeles 78-84
Colorado 73-89
San Diego 70-92

If the Dodgers get Manny, they pass the Giants.

Which rotation would you rather have?

Santana
Pelfrey
Lowe
Maine
Uehara/Niese

Hamels
Myers (euch)
Moyer
Blanton
Kendrick/Happ/Park

Posted by: metsobsessed | December 15, 2008 at 05:07 PM
---------------------------

Uh... even with those hopeful additions, I still pick the Phillies...

WOW. You know the markets inflated when you see Jamie Moyer signing 2/16 deals. I mean he had a great year and career dont get me wrong, but I value him at about the same price as a Tim Wakefield. 4MM year by year.

Fyreknight: also you are using solely last years numbers. Based on the past 3 seasons, I would hands down take the Mets rotation any day of the week over the phillies if they added Lowe.

Maine is a better pitcher than he did last year. So is Johan. Pelfrey is a developing good middle of the rotation.

go pitcher for pitcher

johan vs hamels (johan)
Lowe vs Myers (Lowe)
Maine vs Moyer (good matchup)
Pelfrey vs blanton (good matchup)
phillies win on the 5th starter as thats still unstable for the Mets.

So thats 2 wins for Mets
2 split decisions
1 win for phillies.

Mets rotation wins.

WOW. You know the markets inflated when you see Jamie Moyer signing 2/16 deals. I mean he had a great year and career dont get me wrong, but I value him at about the same price as a Tim Wakefield. 4MM year by year.

Wakefield: (34-34) on a team that won how many games???

Moyer has gone 35-21 as a Phillie. Helping us win back to back NL East Titles and a World Championship.

Market is not inflated based on those stats...

Fyreknight is one of those Philly posters, that every fan base has, that destroys the credibility of every other Philly fan who comes to discuss baseball here. His mom just bought him the BJ handbook and he references it like it is the Bible. Anytime he compares the Mets and the Phils, he slots in Brandon Knight and Jon Niese as their 4th and 5th starters. That should be all you need to know. He also has a theory that JJ Putz is going to sabotage the rest of his career by pitching badly for NY because he is unhappy setting games up for K-Rod. Like I said yesterday in response to FyreKnight's biased waste of my time entry.... yawn.

"nrmax88,

come on now. You're normally one of the brightest Mets fans I see on here. Do you really believe that Delgado was better than Howard?

Yes his BA was higher, but Howard was MUCH better in HR's RBI's Runs, Slugging and OPS.

Also Howard had his career WORST year while Delgado had his best as a Met.

And Howard was ridiculously clutch in September when it counted the most. You know Delgado was too, but not what Howard was.

Howard is one of i believe 2 players to have 10HR's and 30+RBI's in a month and he's done it at least 3 times in his short career.

And you really can't compare Victorino and Beltran becuase they're both asked to do different things. Victorino is NOT a run producer. That's like trying to compare Utley or Burrell's production to Reyes."

PhilsWSchamps... just saw this post from yesterday, it isn't in the recent topics anymore and I am bored so I will respond......

Delgado and Howard were close to equal last year. You brought up BA, R, RBI, none of which do I care about. Howard hardly "killed" Delgado in the SLG category, there was a difference of 25 points. Delgado got on base slightly more, and Delgado actually had an OPS+ of 127 while Ryan Howard's OPS+ was 124. So yes, I will make the argument Delgado was very, very close to Howard last year, if not a tad better. I don't care about other years or career years, because the discussion was who had the stronger season in 2008. It also was not Delgado's best season as a Met, 2006 was, but that is semantics.

I compared Vic and Beltran because our buddy FyreKnight (who is destorying the credibility of Philly fans probably as we speak) decided it would be cool to compare the Mets and Phillies position by position. This is a stupid idea to begin with, but even stupider the way that he did it. First, he said Rollins is better then Reyes, which I strongly disagree with. For the sake of the argument I will call them even. He then says CF and 3B are the only spots the Mets have an advantage, but you have to admit, especially at 3B, it is an enormous advantage. Whether Vic and Beltran are different players or not, Beltran is still much, much better. If Beltran was batting second, and Victorino was batting second, I would be willing to bet a good amount of money that Beltran would handily out-produces him.

My main point was to show what a flawed way of comparing two teams this is, but also, if you must compare them this way, you simply cannot tell me that the advantage Jimmy Rollins has over Jose Reyes (which is non-existent, but as a quick example I will say Rollins is better, which he isn't) is equal to the advantage our CF and 3B positions have over their Philly counterparts. It is like me saying Reyes is better then J-Roll, and Utley is better then Castillo, so combined their middle infields are equal. Jose Reyes is slightly better then Jimmy Rollins, and Chase Utley is a massive amount better then Luis Castillo. Catch my drift?

LOL nrmaxx88. I completely agree with you.

I'm not a met fan fyre so ur fightin the wrong guy. I have an appreciation for both the Mets and Phillies. But here you go

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2008/10/21/derek-lowe-wants-to-go-back-to-boston/

Lowe does want to go to boston. always been his first choice. He didn't want to leave to begin with.

Perez is over rated and inconsistent. Most of my Met fan buddies are really hoping he signs elsewhere.

nrmax,

actually not that it necessarily matters, but it was a Mets fan over the weekend who decided to "compare players position by position" and desginate a + or - to them. Also that same Mets fan said the Phils were better. I'm not sure if he was comparing 2008 or what he expects 2009 to be. I do know that it wasn't FyreKnight. he just responded to it as did I and some others. And howard was closer to Delgado than I thought but again it was more of a fact of Howard had his WORST year ever while Delgado had one of his better ones, certainly much better than 2007. I could see him falling off a bit this coming year.

"Delgado vs Howard is a joke.
2009 Projections:

Delgado: 558 AB / 85 R / 33 HR / 107 RBI / .263

Howard: 648 AB / 101 R / 50 HR / 144 RBI / .276

17 more runs scored, 17 more HRs, 37 more RBI's accounts for ALOT more than +1

Howard's September put the Phillies into the playoffs.

He's an MVP player EVERY year he's been here. won RoY, MVP the next, and came in a close 2nd in 2008.

Mets still have a VERY iffy starting rotation.. In fact, Bill james handbook doesn't give Maine and Pelfrey much credit at all.. they have Maine at 9-8 and Pelfrey at 11-12. And right now, you have Niese at #4, and Knight at #5.

The Phillies, even without Moyer and/or Lowe signed yet, still already have 5 starters better than your five, and while Santana is posed to go 18-7 / 3.01 ERA - Hamels is posed to go 16-8 / 3.24

Giving Santana only the slight edge over Hamels. but our other 4 vs your other 4, Phillies have the edge, and if we sign Moyer AND Lowe.. its not even a contest anymore.

Phillies had the BEST Bullpen in the NL in 2008 - we lost nobody and look to get stronger.

You added K-Rod, which is a wash to Wagner.. added Putz, which is unseen how he'll adjust to his DEMOTION as a set-up man.. he is NOT happy about that..

Ibanez has 3 straight 100+ RBI years in a row and hit .308 against lefties last year.. a BIG upgrade from Burrell.

ONLY Beltran and Wright are better than the Phillies Victorino and Feliz/Dobbs.

We have you beat in each of the other 6 positions, a better starting staff as of now, and a better bullpen overall.

Phillies are the 2 straight NL East Champs, and the 2008 World F****ng Champs!

Who's the team to beat????"

That is what I responded too. I dont know.... maybe somebody did do a +/- system of ranking the teams, but honestly, this is just ridiculous, how much more arbitrary can you be, ranking teams with a +1 or +2 system that was just made up and holds no actual value.

BELOW IS WHERE I BELIEVE THE + - DISCUSSION STARTED. AGREED THAT IT MAKES LITTLE SENSE. AND I ESPEICALLY LIKE HOW THE METS FAN THINKS THE PHILS ARE THE BETTER TEAM. HE SHOULD HANG OUT WITH KROD MORE.

I'd like to break down the Mets and Phillies position by position. We're going to assume that the Mets sign Derek Lowe, and that the Phillies re-sign Jamie Moyer, as both appear likely. If the two players are even in talent, they will be marked "Even". If a player is marginally better than another, they will be marked +1 (Santana over Hamels). If a player is much better than the other, they will be marked +5 (Utley over Castillo). With that in mind, here we go.

C: Paulino/Ruiz +1 Schneider/Castro
1B: Delgado Even Howard
2B: Utley +5 Castillo
SS: Reyes +1 Rollins
3B: Wright +4 Feliz
LF: Ibanez +2 Murphy/Tatis
CF: Beltran +2 Victorino
RF: Werth +1 Church

That leaves the Phils' offense +2. Let's go rotation:

Santana +1 Hamels
Lowe +3 Myers
Pelfrey +1 Moyer
Blanton +1 Maine
Happ +2 Niese

The Mets' rotation gets +2. Now to the bullpen:

Lidge +1 Rodriguez
Putz +2 Madson
Romero Even Feliciano
Condrey Even Green
Durbin +2 Stokes
Eyre Even Sanchez

That gives Philly a +1 bullpen advantage. With the Phillies bench getting a +1 for their bench, they are two points better than the Mets, and that's assuming the Mets even get Derek Lowe. That's why I'm picking the Phils.

There is really no point in discussing who is better right now. It is silly. Especially who has the better bullpen. The Mets bullpen in 06 was just tremendous, like the Phils bullpen in 08. Look how that turned out. Madson could end up with a 5+ era like Heilman did and Romero can fall off a cliff. It is a waste of time to discuss it. All I know is, right now, I am very comfortable the way the Mets are setup. They fixed their biggest weakness. Everybody says K-Rod and Wagner are a wash, but if Wagner doesn't go down, the Mets probably win the division. If Wagner goes down and there is a guy like Putz to fill in, the Mets probably win the division. I am ready for opening day.

oh and you can HOPE that Madson falls off a cliff, but I doubt it. Also Romero has now proven himself for 2 years on our team. He's done needing to prove himself, but believe what you like. Oh and Wagner blew a very high 7 games through only part of the year. Those that try to argue that KROD is better than Lidge, or that Wagner was or would be better if healthy are just WRONG.

I likewise am very content with my team. Bring on the season.

"With incentives and Social Security the deal is expected to surpass $16 million."

"k rod 62 saves in 69 opportunities

lidge 48 for 48... plus he was out with his knee at beginning of season, and there was alot of games that were not save opps because the lead was so big

ill take lidge"

Looking at saves is a pretty bad way to judge a closer. It's better to look at projected WHIP. Marcel says 1.29 for K-Rod and 1.33 for Lidge, so it's a virtual toss up. K-Rod's drop in velocity and K's over the last few years scares me but Lidge is due for a lot of regression. His HR/FB rate is an unsustainable 3.9%. Expect that to go up to 10%, and expect his FB% to go up a few percent too (Or maybe not, he's been using more sliders last year). Overall, they're probably about equal, but I'd bet on K-Rod without any confidence.

I love it how you forgot how we added krod and jj putz.

John maine has been healthy for over a month now.

We are in the process of signing Derek Lowe .

Murphy showed how he can hit.

Church return and finished with average barely under .300

As we improve the phillies and cubs haven't.

Phillies have no more money in the bank for derek lowe

Mets sign him easily, they have the most money out of.the other teams going after.him.

YANKEES ARE OUT OF IT

"2nd lowe already made a statement saying he would rather play in philly, do you really think the mets front office after someone makes a statement like that...."
lol....

Fenton from philly stood shutttttttttt

Phils I would have said I doubted that Heilman would have fell off a cliff, but he did. And his 2005 and 2007 season's were better the Madson's 08. His 2006 was only marginally worse. So much stranger things have happened. You keep saying how much better Lidge is then K-Rod. He really isn't. It is pretty much a wash. Even last year, in K-Rods worst season of his career, he was almost identical to Lidge. Lidge had more strikeouts, I will give you that, but they both walked the same amount of batters, and for such an outstanding year, Lidge's whip was awfully high for a closer, only slightly lower then K-Rods. And last year is the only sample you can base that argument on, because last year was the only year since 05 that Lidge was even on K-Rods level. Lidge and K-Rod both dominated in 04 and 05. Then Lidge fell off the planet. K-Rod dominated that whole time Lidge was struggling. Lidge came back to dominance last year, and only marginally outperformed K-Rod. I don't love K-Rod going forward for 4 years, although for 12 mil I'm okay with it, but to act as if Lidge is so far and away better then K-Rod is sort of crazy.

And the funniest part about it is, looking for holes as of "today", your hole at second is worse than ours!!!! Just had to exploit that hole in your stupid statement.

Posted by: here we go | December 16, 2008 at 12:07 AM

Again I say, keep hoping Mets fans that Utley won't be an impact early in the season, but as per his news conference he is already rehabbing and expects to play in spring training games by mid-march. Again its early but he's looking to be much closer to the 4 than 6 months. Oh and even IF he missed time into June he still would be light years better than any second baseman you could put up there.

nrmax,

please. Wagner is always hanging by a thread. Its nice that he can pad his stats like he does but he goes through stretches where he is eminantly hittable. The middle of June he had 3 straight games where he gave up 2 runs a game. Then the beginning of July when we beat him up. Trust me, Lidge is definitely more TRUSTED than Wagner.

Teams are made and broken in the winter... While yes, you are right, its only December with still a "fair" amount of "A" type players out there.. If the Mets don't sign Lowe.. who do they sign then? Bring back Perez? We all know he is an inconsistant pitcher.. Garland? Looper? Wolf?

And the Mets aren't the only teams looking to sign FA Pitchers.. Brewers are too, so are the Dodgers, Cards, Nationals, Braves, Yankees, Blue Jays, Rangers, ect....

The Mets are 2 starters short of being a good and healthy Rotation... If you don't sign Lowe, you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that you'll be "just fine" with what you'll have.

The Phills might get 1 good year from Moyer, or less. I like the Chan Ho Park situation, because you needed a 5th starter.

The Phills might get 1 good year from Moyer, or less. I like the Chan Ho Park situation, because you needed a 5th starter.

Posted by: tomahawk368 | December 16, 2008 at 10:28 AM

And this is based on.... what?
Age?

He went 5-2 in 2006 for the Phillies
14-12 in 2007
16-7 in 2008

Yeah... great proof that he only has a year or less left in him..!

we "needed" a 5th starter? Hmmm.. didn't we already have Kendrick, Happ and Carracso competing for that spot???

Park will be used as the long reliever, spot starter.... when we need a righty, and Happ will be our lefty in the number 5 slot, that's how I see it. Park and Happ will share the #5 slot and both work out of the pen, depending on the match-up of the series at that time, or who's been hotter..