Rosenthal's Latest: Johnson, Cano, Peavy

I think the A's could do better with power. Giambi would be great as their DH, as his last best season was with the A's. Not to mention he'll probably get hurt less than Johnson will.

Kemp for Cano makes no sense, so unless the Yankees are willing to change their asking price, no point in rekindling talks.

"He adds that Raul Ibanez might be out of their price range."

The Braves have hardly spent a penny of the $40 million they have available. They may not want to pay Ibanez his asking price, but it isn't out of their range. They just offered for AJ Burnett! That statement makes no sense.

I've heard Kelly Johnson for Ryan Ludwick talks. Any word on the progress of those? Are there any other outfielders the Braves are looking to trade for?

What would it take to get Matt Kemp? Probably too much.

The Braves are spending about 11 mil after the trade, if the 40 million is before the Hudson insurance...that leaves them with near 34 or 35 million left...but that will go quickly if Burnett and Ross sign and they still want plan on signing smoltz and glavine...only leaving them around 7 or 8 mil for LF

My mistake, Colletti should be calling Kemp about the Yankees.

"Oliver Perez in the Bronx huh??? Boy then the Mets would need a bullpen AND a couple starters."

I'm pretty sure everyone knew all along there was little chance of him returning to the Mets. And adding starters isn't new news, it's probably second priority at this point.

aj told the braves to take their 4 year offer and burnett

DominicanYanks, I think AJ is a sure bet to give you better stats than Ollie. In my opinion, Ollie has slightly better stuff, but he's just plain too wild to be counted on for those 4 or 5 years. I think Burnett will definitely help your team out most. Although Burnett's... habit of getting injured almost every season makes this close.

As an O's fan, I'm glad McPhail came to his senses. Getting involved in this deal made no sense if the rumors were correct and the exchange would have had us giving up Olson for Pie. About the ONLY thing we don't need is another outfielder, much less one who has wildly disappointed of late AND who would wind up costing us a young southpaw with a decent chance of developing into a solid No. 3.

And anyway, the Cubs were already kind enough to essentially give us a gifted young (26) outfielder capable of playing left in a pinch; one who has actually demonstrated- in limited duty- that he can hit big league pitching: Lou Montanez!

Thanks for that, by the way.

KJ is not a very good hitter if he's playing LF and he's also another LH, at a time when the Braves are really hoping to land a big threat from the right side of the plate.

Caps...KJ plays 2b.

I would have to agree with Dominicanyanks on Oliver Perez. A.J. Burnett is likely to lose some of his effectiveness. He reilies heavily on a good fastball and by the end of his contract he is likely to lose some velocity while Perez probably won't lose much if any. I would also be willing to take a chance on an off/on pitcher due to the Yankees deep bullpen. Perez is apparently either lights out or horrible. Aceves and Giese could be used well to keep the Yankees in the game after a terrible start. I also have some faith that Eiland could help Ollie with his control at least a little.

Johnson actually does fit in well with the A's. The A's top pitching prospects are slated for debut in late '09-early 2010. Having someone solid behind Duchscherer would really shore up that pitching staff, which helps the team contend. And, before someone asks, if projected payroll is 60-65MM range, the A's can get both Furcal and Randy and stay in that range.

Giambi doesn't, as Cust has the DH spot locked up and defense is really really really important.

Kelly Johnson had some kind of arm surgery and can't play the outfield anymore. Plus, he's a natural infielder, they brought him up to play left field because he was the best bat available in the minors at the time.

Kemp for Cano...Hell No!

By some sort of arm surgery, you mean Tommy John.

Andy Braves Fan,

Dude, I'm a Braves fan, but its just ridiculous to say that KJ is more valuable than Ludwick. Ludwick's OPS ranked higher in all of MLB last season than Kelly's did among just 2B. Kelly is a good solid player, and I wouldn't be willing to give up anything to valuable in addition to him for Ludwick, but its unrealistic to think that KJ by himself should be more than enough.

Nixa, Please...This isn't even close. Ludwick is 30 years old and has done NOTHING AT ALL until last season. Likelyhood of him continuing that production is almost 0. Ludwick is a Corner outfielder. Corner outfielders who can hit well are a dime a dozen. Ludwick isn't that valuable.

KJ is far younger, hasn't reached his peak production. He is already a top 10 2b. It really isn't that close, check you facts.

nixa
ryan ludwick had one good year - dont be sold on him just yet - there are not too many 2b who can hit as good as KJ

It sounds like the Cubs/Pads have given up on a third team and will just do a straight deal involving Vitters if the new Cubs ownership approves it. Then the Padres can work out their own deal for more pitching later.

KJ is far younger, hasn't reached his peak production. He is already a top 10 2b. It really isn't that close, check you facts.

haha. Kelly Johnson a top 10 2B? What has HE proven.

List of second basemen better than KJ

1)Utley
2)Pedroia
3)Kinsler
4)DeRosa
5)Polanco
6)Uggla
7)Cano
8)Phillips
9)Jose Lopez
10)Freddy Sanchez
11)Brian Roberts
12)Orlando Hudson
13)Howie Kendrick

should i go on???

I left off Iwamura, Weeks, Fontenot . . .

I'd say he's definitely top 10 in the NL East though.

Nixa, that's a pretty stupid move. KJ is far better than average, check the stats as I implored you to do before!

Ludwick is over 30. IE he doesn't have that great of an upside. Prado hasn't proven anything, his stats last year seem largely due to luck (his ld% was higher than it has ever been in his ML or MiL career). And if you checked your facts, you would know that KJ hits lefties AS WELL OR BETTER than righties (as does McCann).

And let me say this again, in case you didn't get this from years and years of baseball history... POWER HITTING CORNER OUTFIELDERS ARE A DIME A DOZEN.

Nixa, you are simply wrong on this one.

Phils, there is no way you can convince me that KJ isn't better than Cano, Sanchez, and Polanco. He is younger than most of those players as well. He may not be Utley, but he is ranked in the top ten by almost any sportwriter you talk to.

I know the stats like the back of my hand. Kelly Johnson is easily better than average with the bat, but he is also clearly below average with the glove. He's a good solid 2B, but he's nothing special unless he can hit as good as, or better than, he did in 2007. You keep saying he has upside, and he clearly has some, but I don't see him ever doing significantly more than he did in 2007.

You keep saying Ludwick doesn't have any upside, but if he can come even close to repeating his numbers from last year he is far, far, far more valuable than Kelly. I understand there are always a lot of corner outfielders, but they are extremely expensive (unlike Ludwick) and terrible defensively (again, unlike Ludwick). Even if Ludwick's OPS drops 100 points next year, that would still put it at a similar level to Magglio Ordonez. I don't know about you, but I'd consider Magglio for KJ.

These dodger rumors are absurd.

KJ "should" be a 20-25 guy (hr/sb) but hasn't done it...

Even a 15/25 would be more helpful... but again, he hasn't done it.

He's not a top ten 2B in baseball, that's a fact.

Right and Magglio also earns 18 million a year because he is a "known quantity". We could take that 15 million we'd save by trading for Ludwick instead and go out and get another "known quantity." Ludwick isn't exactly a known quantity, but he was a fairly highly regarded prospect who never panned out until now because of injury. Are you really worried that this season was just a complete mirage and Ludwick won't even be able to keep his OPS within 100 points of what he did this year?

you know what, f*** you ken rosenthal.

Matt kemp is NOT getting traded. There is a reason he is still a Dodger. Jesus.

seriously KJ better than Cano?
Cano had a bad year and did just as good as Kelly Johnson (more HR and RBI)
If he was top 10 he would have had at least a silver slugger or something!!

Cano, Pedroia, Utley, and a bunch of others are alot better than KJ. Don't get me wrong he is good but when he can prove something to us, then you can plus him in the discussion as a top 10 2nd Basemen

Well Johnson didn't play in 2006 and posted a nearly identical OPS+ (120 to 117) in 2007. Clearly Johnson was better last year. I wasn't going to argue with that one because it of Cano's off season and the fact that its probably pretty close.

I may have you on Sanchez? The guy posted an OPS+ of 79 last season and even the year he won the batting title he was barely better than KJ last year (OPS+ of 119 to 117). That one isn't even close.

As for Kendrick, he's only a little more than a year younger than KJ and he's never hit at the same level KJ has at the ML level. If you're going to start projecting guys, then I guess I should do the same with Kelly and project him clearly ahead of Polanco and Hudson as well.

Look, I didn't even bother going through a bunch of the guys on your list because it wasn't worth it. You are either completely ignorant when it comes to baseball or you just decided to throw a bunch of names out there in hopes that no one would bother checking. Either way you're just another typical phillies fan that isn't worth the time.

Why do people still think Rickie Weeks is any good at all? The guy is terrible. Guy's got over 1400 career AB's with a line of .245/.352/.406. He isn't good. Can we please move past it now.

Yankee fans please, why is Cash chasing after Perez and Wolf, really? Both of those are marginally at best better than jared washburn, whom cash was chasing at last year's non waiver deadline and that was for emergency purposes only, now, they can take their pick from over a dozen and pick these 2? A fallback? Wouldn't Sheets as an injury risk be a better option, or Brad Penny even?

Johnson also projects to have a .823 OPS compared to a .799 for Weeks. James' projections for Weeks are pretty optimistic too considering he's only gotten within 30 points of that projected OPS once in his career (an .807 in 2008) and and he's at .758 for his career.

I don't know, maybe its the ~40 points difference in OPS? Also, you say KJ gets on base at a lesser clip when his OBP is clearly the higher of the two.

I guess calling Weeks terrible was a bit of an overstatement, but the guy just isn't good with the bat. He's only gotten an OPS+ of over 96 once in his 4 year career.

Also, what makes you think that Weeks is above average with the glove? He doesn't appear in Dewan's +/- rankings and was ranked 17th at 2B by the guys voting for the Fielding Bible awards. He might be better than KJ, but its not by a large margin.

Plain and simple... Someone asked me to name 10 2B BETTER than KJ, I listed 15. There are several not included that I considered "equal" to KJ, and even if weeks is taken off the list, I still have 14 others listed, still only asked for 10... so even if you argued with FOUR more on that list, I'd still show you 10 better than KJ at 2B.

Case closed...

Dear Mr. Cashman

Please sign Oliver Perez to a lengthy contract as an early Christmas present. Love,

Red Sox Nation

2009 Projections:

A. Ramirez: 574 AB / 88 R / 24 HR / 97 RBI / 14 SB / .289

R. Cano: 607 AB / 81 R / 17 HR / 86 RBI / 2 SB / .295

Kendrick: 612 AB / 87 R / 11 HR / 82 RBI / 18 SB / .317

Those three are better than KJ's... Lopez, Iwamura and Hudson are "close" to being very equal to KJ, so we'll take them off the list.. still leaves 11 better!

Because I don't take OPS as seriously as everyone else does these days, its a "newer" stat that makes players like KJ look better on paper... To ME - I rather have a guy that will score more runs and drive in more than a guy that doesn't... and ALL the ones I posted all have better projections in BOTH areas than KJ. SB's as well for the most part..

FyreKnight and nixa37,

in the interests of ending this argument (even though nixa is clearly losing it :-)

can we all agree that if KJ gets his power stats up, improves defensively a bit he could be included in at possibly number 10?

oh and by the way, exactly what does my team affilliation have to do with your opinion of my opinions nixa?

Runs scored and RBIs are more a product of the line up around the player, not the player himself.

You are also only looking at the offensive side the numbers... not that it help KJ, but that'd remove Ramirez from your list.

philsWSchamps, not nearly as much as your douchey attitude...

Anyways, you're just lying now FyreKnight. Johnson is projected to steal more bases than Cano and score more runs. Besides, counting stats like runs and RBI are largely team driven stats and the Yankees, Angels, and White Sox are better than the Braves offensively. They all also happen to play in more hitter friendly parks than the Braves do, something James projection takes into account.

The only thing those guys really beat KJ in is RBI. There is a very good reason for this. He hasn't put up big numbers in that category because he is either stuck at the top of the lineup or place behind Jeff Francoeur in the lineup. Neither is a very good spot to get an RBI and that has held KJ's numbers down in that category the past few years, leading to the lower projections this year.

If you honestly think all 3 of those players are clearly better than KJ despite his significant OBP and OPS advantages than its not really worth arguing with you.

nixa,

douchey, really?

Sorry I'd take Cano and ramirez. I'll give you KJ over Kendrick.

KJ is a "good" 2B - he's not Great... do we agree on this? And he's not in the top 10 in MLB either...

agreed?

Yeah man, you're the guy who decided you needed to argue that Hamels was better than Lincecum in a clearly unrelated thread right after the announcement was made.

I'll give you that KJ may be a fringe top 10 guy, but there is certainly a strong case to be made that he is one of the 10 best in the league. I'm not saying he definitely is, just that he falls into the same group as a lot of guys who are borderline. You're the one trying to "prove" he isn't in the top 10.

And no, Kendrick's bat is not in the same league as Kinsler or Pedroia. Even if you leave aside walks because you don't technically use your bat to walk, Kendrick has not shown anywhere near the power that Pedroia and Kinsler have already shown they have.

Yeah man, you're the guy who decided you needed to argue that Hamels was better than Lincecum in a clearly unrelated thread right after the announcement was made.

haha nice try, but that's not what i said. I said there was a discussion to be had because of similarities, ie age, ERA, WHIP etc. Hamels obviously has a stellar postseason on his record and Lincecum has the better regular season stats. Who would you rather have Schilling and his WS's or say Mussina? Never said one was better than the other. I'll go back and find it exactly later.

disagree*

bdlugz wrote:

Andy, here's 12 from 2008:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/10/20/638889/best-second-basemen-of-200
___________________________

Maybe I'm missing something but how does a player like Cano not even make the top 25 list?

I won't bother arguing who's better KJ vs Cano but it amazes me how people are basing their arguements.

KJ has had 2 full years in the majors. In his best season (08) he hit:

.287/.349/.446 w/ 12 hrs and 69 rbis

In Cano's worst year (08) he hit:

.271/.305.471 w/ 14 hrs and 72 rbis

Give KJ the edge in obp (+.044) how he obviously better than Cano?

Defensively KJ's range factor is 5.16 vs Cano's 5.25. KJ's fielding % is .980 vs Cano's .984.

Even if I use other stats like PMR, Zone Rating, etc KJ doesn't rate better.

So if it's an opinio that KJ is better than Cano then fine, it's an opinio. But to make a statement then I beg the question...based on what?