More Halladay Chatter

Yankees should pass on Doc. They really don't need him at the price we'll have to give. Regardless if the Blue Jays are willing to give him up to their own division, they will still make the deals expensive. Most likely Hughes, Jesus Montero/Austin Romine and another prospect. Plus starting pitching isn't much of a concern to us long term even with Wang's injury. I'd rather keep the prospects who have good potential.

Never ceases to amaze me how quickly player analyses change. The first month of the season, Johan had a sub-1.00 ERA and *he* was the consensus best pitcher in baseball. Now, after a rough month on a triple-A level team, Halladay is "probably a better pitcher."

It's very much up for debate which one of them is better, IMO.

"Olney runs through more suitors: the Red Sox, who have 'stubbornly clung to their young pitching,'"

Can you seriously blame them for not trading Clay Buchholz? He is an amazing talent with ace potential. Michael Bowden is the same type of pitcher, but I'd trade him in a good deal. However, the Jays would likely want a package starting at Bowden/Anderson/Reddick/plus, and I don't think anyone would give that up to a team in their own division.

Jay, even before his rough patches, I considered Halladay a better pitcher than Santana. It's not a matter of "how quickly player analyses change."

As long as the white sox don't give up beckham or danks I am all for it

Posted by: ChiSox723 | July 07, 2009 at 10:22 PM

Don't hold your breath on that one, chief.

I gotta agree with NM, if Halladay is having trouble with one of his pitches, he always has something else as good or better that he could throw.

Can we please stop mentioning the Cubs as possible suitors for Halladay? Who are they going to offer in a trade? A deal centered around Josh Vitters? Give me a break. Hendry has depleted their farm system and now the Cubs are feeling the burden of the awful Soriano, Fukudome, and Milton Bradley contracts.

Lets be absolutely real here, people. The only team that can truly give the Blue Jays what Halladay is worth is the Rangers. Not only that, they can make the deal, and STILL have a great farm system. If I'm Jon Daniels, I get this thing done and make a huge playoff run.

For the last two years, anytime a big name vet is mentioned as possibly being on the trading block, I get a feeling similar to indigestion when I see someone try and mention the Cubs as a possible suitor. Just stop. Their farm system is full of guys no one has ever heard of and they are backloaded with declining veterans signed to outrageous contracts. Did I miss anything else?

'•MLB.com's Jordan Bastian has a source that says over a dozen teams have asked about Halladay, with the most serious interest expressed by the Cardinals, Yankees, Mets, Brewers, Dodgers, Angels and Red Sox.'

out of these, my guess is that the dodgers, angels, sox, and cards will stay in it. However, I doubt Halladay gets dealt to the sox and i dont know if the Cards have payroll room(after Derosa, whos on the DL). So it may be Dodgers and angels... wow

Halladay also seems like the type of pitcher that would age well. All his injuries for the most part have been freak (2 balls hit him and hurt him and I think he broke a bone in his leg). He doesnt rely on overpowering people solely and is a brilliant pitcher. He could have top of the rotation stuff for another 5 or 6 years.

Olney just makes things up out of thin air. The Cubs won't be players for Doc; they don't have the prospects and even if they did, they can't take on the salary.

"Lambo, Kershaw, and Withrow for Doc! Gitter done Colletti

Posted by: s17 | July 07, 2009 at 11:12 PM"

Lambo, Withrow, E. Martin, Dejesus Jr., and Elbert.

That is a good package.
If the Dodgers offered something around those lines and didnt get him, then its okay.

"s17, that's already a deal breaker for the Jays.

In addition to Kershaw, you have to start talking about Billingsley and any one of the Kemp/Ethier/Loney trio for the Jays to be interested.

Posted by: BKuGotIt | July 07, 2009 at 11:19 PM"

Ewww. Stop.

the Red Sox, who have "stubbornly clung to their young pitching," -Olney

Were there any potential deals in which the RS should have dealt their young pitching but "stubbornly" held on to it? Buchholz for Taylor Teagarden? Lester ++ for Santana? Michael Bowden for Miguel Montero?

Is "stubborn" really an appropriate description? I think "wisely" works a lot better.

*No way does Doc get traded within the division. That would be like Jeter being traded to the Sox.

You're saying thats a good package because your a Dodger fan. If you saw what Ricciardi said, he will only pull the trigger along the lines of a deal similar to Haren to Arizona, or Tex to Atlanta.

Not to sound like a homer, Kershaw might have the most upside of any starter in the NL.

dbes13, that wouldn't get it done for me. Wallace is a good starting piece, but Anderson's hitting has fallen off at AAA, and Samuel is a reliever...Jays would be looking for a frontline young starter ready to contribute either this year or next.

BK, your an idiot. Kershaw has litterally pitched since May 6 like a #2, look at his numbers. Billz is an ace. Kemp is a top 3 CF, both offense and defense. Loney is an RBI guy, with great defense, and Ethier has been our clutch guy and HR hitter. that would never happen. With that trade, we become the Padres over night...

Posted by: lakersdodgersyankees4life | July 07, 2009 at 11:23 PM

I'm not an idiot, but I appreciate your sense of humor. You are forgetting some very crucial information here.

First of all, Billingsley is only 24, he's already an ace, and HIS CONTRACT is very very affordable. If you were the Jays and you have to pick between which young starter you want in return for Halladay (Kershaw or Billingsley), it's a no brainer. Billingsley has to be part of the deal for it to work.

As for the Ethier/Loney/Kemp trio, I said ANY ONE. That means you'd have to give up ONE of them. Once again, very very very young guys, very affordable contracts, and an already proven ML record. Trading for Halladay would be a lateral move unless you completely decimated the entire farm system for a year and a half of him. Colletti isn't that stupid.

Face it, Dodgers' fans. The fact that you have very very young players at the major league level has actual hurt your chances of acquiring Halladay. The Jays will want guys from your ML roster, not your farm system.

That's why the Dodgers aren't going to get him. It would do more harm than good.

dbes13, that wouldn't get it done for me. Wallace is a good starting piece, but Anderson's hitting has fallen off at AAA, and Samuel is a reliever...Jays would be looking for a frontline young starter ready to contribute either this year or next.

Posted by: s17 | July 07, 2009 at 11:32 PM

You hit the nail right on the head. Todd, Boggs, and/or Mortenson would also have to somehow be involved in this deal. Is this assuming that the Cards aren't taking on all/most of his salary?

I hate to say it, but once again, it looks like the Brew Crew has a better shot at getting him than we do.

I still think the Rangers have the best potential packages though.

"s17, that's already a deal breaker for the Jays.

In addition to Kershaw, you have to start talking about Billingsley and any one of the Kemp/Ethier/Loney trio for the Jays to be interested.

Posted by: BKuGotIt | July 07, 2009 at 11:19 PM"

Ewww. Stop.

Posted by: 661dodgerblue | July 07, 2009 at 11:23 PM

Pass whatever it is you are smoking if you think the Dodgers can get Halladay without giving up anyone of those guys.

Die-Hard Dodger Fan,

I will concede that maybe you can get away with not offering Billinsley, but if you think Kershaw won't be the centerpiece of the return to the Jays, then I really need to make a trip out to Chavez Ravine and get my hands on some of that quality bud you guys are smoking.

If you also think that the Dodgers can get away with not offering one of the Ethier/Kemp/Loney trio, that's bogus, but I will agree with you that if any one of those were to go, it would definitely be Ethier.

Some of them are still young enough to be prospects, they have very affordable contracts, and if you want to beat out the other offers, that's what you will have to do.

Which is exactly why the Dodgers won't pull the trigger. Kershaw has a .270ish BAAIP and has been getting guys out like crazy. Why make a backwards trade for Doc when you have the pitching and the offense you need to keep your lead in the NL West and cruise to the playoffs?

And the Cardinals would be a good spot, too, with a package headlined by Brett Wallace. Not sure if they would be willing to include enough else to get it done, though.

I don't think including mortensen/ boggs would be an that big of an issue for mozeliak, as both are good prospects but are more pitch to contact guys.

I just can't help but think that the cards know wallace's defense projects him only as a 1B in the majors and are just waiting for the right spot to deal him (similar milwaukee's situation to laporta last yr who was also rushed thru the minors). I don't think they would give wallace up for holliday and i know the package would have to be better than what milwaukee gave up for sabathia, but halladay is the type of guy to give up wallace for.

Posted by: dbes13 | July 07, 2009 at 11:56 PM
--------------------------
I agree with you that Halladay is definitely worth giving up Wallace for. You also make a spot on comparison to LaPorta. But I get the feeling that we are holding onto Wallace just in case Albert bolts for the open market in two years.

The big question regarding Halladay is if we can afford his salary or not, and I really don't think we can.

Halladay's contract ends at the end of the 2010 season, correct? If so could the Brewers try and make a serious run this year by trading for him, then depending on what happens move him at some point before next years trade deadline?

I'm not a Dodger or Jays fan, but wanted to weigh in on this debate. I don't see the Dodgers parting with any of their ML young guys. That being said I think they will have a tough time matching up with some of the other offers on the table.

Any deal would have to include Lambo, McDonald, Elbert

one of Martin or Lindblom

one of Hu or Dee Gordon (personally i'd take Gordon)

And I think they'd have to add two lower prospects of the Kyle Russell/Justin Miller ilk (those would be the two i'd target)

While thats a very good 7 player package, there is no star player. McDonald and Elbert have upside but they might both end up in the bullpen. Lambo and Martin could become stars, (as could Gordon) but none are close to a sure thing. Most other teams in the mix could offer one or more sure talents. Yankees could offer Hughes, who you at least know could be a mid-rotation guy, same with Bucholtz and the Red Sox. Rangers have plenty of top prospects to build a package around. I just have a hard time seeing the Dodgers competeing with those deals.

Die hard, I think Pierre would be in LF, and leave Kemp and Ethier where they are. No sense in moving them all around.

'I'm not an idiot, but I appreciate your sense of humor. You are forgetting some very crucial information here.

First of all, Billingsley is only 24, he's already an ace, and HIS CONTRACT is very very affordable. If you were the Jays and you have to pick between which young starter you want in return for Halladay (Kershaw or Billingsley), it's a no brainer. Billingsley has to be part of the deal for it to work.

As for the Ethier/Loney/Kemp trio, I said ANY ONE. That means you'd have to give up ONE of them. Once again, very very very young guys, very affordable contracts, and an already proven ML record. Trading for Halladay would be a lateral move unless you completely decimated the entire farm system for a year and a half of him. Colletti isn't that stupid.

Face it, Dodgers' fans. The fact that you have very very young players at the major league level has actual hurt your chances of acquiring Halladay. The Jays will want guys from your ML roster, not your farm system.''

Haha, you think that because our team has been one of the most successful at building talent that we cant trade for a player? good logic. Look, one of the links says we have called and are early favorites. Therefore, that means that they have accepted not getting an Mlb player. What would be the point of trading a mlb player, possibly two, breaking up the top team right now, to get an ace. We have devolped 2 aces, and a solid team.

Look at the list, out of those teams, we have one of the best farms out of them. Writers dont like it, but our farm is really strong. We can get Halladay w/o giving up mlb starters. the dodgers have never pulled off a trade since colletti became GM that affected the MLB team by taking players off. We have dealt prospects, and will continue to do so. Also, with the position players you said, one of Etheir, Kemp, and Loney, where will you play them? Your OF is full with overpaid players and Lind is at 1B.

'I'm not a Dodger or Jays fan, but wanted to weigh in on this debate. I don't see the Dodgers parting with any of their ML young guys. That being said I think they will have a tough time matching up with some of the other offers on the table.

Any deal would have to include Lambo, McDonald, Elbert

one of Martin or Lindblom

one of Hu or Dee Gordon (personally i'd take Gordon)

And I think they'd have to add two lower prospects of the Kyle Russell/Justin Miller ilk (those would be the two i'd target)

While thats a very good 7 player package, there is no star player. McDonald and Elbert have upside but they might both end up in the bullpen. Lambo and Martin could become stars, (as could Gordon) but none are close to a sure thing. Most other teams in the mix could offer one or more sure talents. Yankees could offer Hughes, who you at least know could be a mid-rotation guy, same with Bucholtz and the Red Sox. Rangers have plenty of top prospects to build a package around. I just have a hard time seeing the Dodgers competeing with those deals.'

I agree it would have those 3. But we wont trade Martin. We feel he is a righty version of Kershaw, with good stuff, great FB, good command, and young. He would probably be in AA or AAA, but he hurt his knee last yr. He is very close to a sure thing. We would include Gordon or Hu because we have Furcal and DeJesus in the system.

Your deal would look like this:

Elbert, McDonald, Lambo(3 of our top 4 prospects), Lindblom, and Gordon. A #2 lefty, #3 righty, power 1B or OF, #3 or #2(lindblom) and a future SS. strong package that fills many needs...

'I'm not a Dodger or Jays fan, but wanted to weigh in on this debate. I don't see the Dodgers parting with any of their ML young guys. That being said I think they will have a tough time matching up with some of the other offers on the table.

Any deal would have to include Lambo, McDonald, Elbert

one of Martin or Lindblom

one of Hu or Dee Gordon (personally i'd take Gordon)

And I think they'd have to add two lower prospects of the Kyle Russell/Justin Miller ilk (those would be the two i'd target)

While thats a very good 7 player package, there is no star player. McDonald and Elbert have upside but they might both end up in the bullpen. Lambo and Martin could become stars, (as could Gordon) but none are close to a sure thing. Most other teams in the mix could offer one or more sure talents. Yankees could offer Hughes, who you at least know could be a mid-rotation guy, same with Bucholtz and the Red Sox. Rangers have plenty of top prospects to build a package around. I just have a hard time seeing the Dodgers competeing with those deals.'

I agree it would have those 3. But we wont trade Martin. We feel he is a righty version of Kershaw, with good stuff, great FB, good command, and young. He would probably be in AA or AAA, but he hurt his knee last yr. He is very close to a sure thing. We would include Gordon or Hu because we have Furcal and DeJesus in the system.

Your deal would look like this:

Elbert, McDonald, Lambo(3 of our top 4 prospects), Lindblom, and Gordon. A #2 lefty, #3 righty, power 1B or OF, #3 or #2(lindblom) and a future SS. strong package that fills many needs...

Halladay isn't going anywhere unless the Blue Jays are desperate to move him, which they aren't. I don't see them accepting anything less than 3 top prospects and no team would be willing to do that. Maybe George Steinbrenner circa 1992 but nobody in this day.

For the Yanks to get Halladay it would take a Joba/Hughes/Jackson package to do it. And honestly if the Yanks made that deal it would not make them a better team, not for this season or next.

Hughes is a top of the rotation type of talent and mark my words, when he is given a rotation spot next year he will have a breakout season. Austin Jackson as of now is starting for the Yankees in the outfield next year, possibly even this year. And Joba has been a decent SP this year and will be a dominant setup man next year when they stop giving into his whiny ways and stick him where he belongs whether he likes it or not.

For the Yanks to get Halladay it would take a Joba/Hughes/Jackson package to do it. And honestly if the Yanks made that deal it would not make them a better team, not for this season or next.

For the Yanks to get Halladay it would take a Joba/Hughes/Jackson package to do it. And honestly if the Yanks made that deal it would not make them a better team, not for this season or next.
___________________________________________________
Add in Jesus Montero most likely.

I think the Jays would want a Hughes,Montero and maybe 2 decent B+ prospects. Tho I'm not sold on any Yankee prospects

he's out for the year I heard.

And yes dodger fans Halladay would be your #1.'

duh...

With Dejesus, He got hurt in a spring training game and broke his leg. However, he was supposed to be out all yr, but has done well with rehab and could be back in Aug or Sept. If he is neccesary, he could be a PTBNL

Like someone else said, another reason that Billz or Kershaw wont be involved is the thought of Kershaw, Billz, Halladay, E. Martin, and another vet in a few yrs for a rotation.(in no particular order)

the Phils prospects are just better, it has nothing to do with being closer to the bigs really. Being a Jays fan right now I see the phils as the leader.

Steveo26,

I think your initial start of McDonald, Elbert and Lambo would be acceptable to the Dodgers.

I don't think another arm the caliber of Martin or Lindblom would need to be added. I mean if the Jays get two our best arms already, trading another 2 of our best is probably excessive.

Plus, McDonald and Elbert are more desirable because they are the most major league ready. IMO, Elbert could be in the rotation in a year and McDonald could start right away.

I think a middle infield prospect is probably needed to be the eventual successor to Scutaro at SS. I think Hu is a guy that Ricciardi had some interest in last year and would be a decent 4th player in the package.

McDonald, Elbert, Lambo and Hu for Halladay.

That's a LOT of talent to get for Halladay figuring in that all those guys could end up on the Dodger 25 man roster within 2 years if they stay with the Dodgers.

Dee Gordon is probably not an option since IMO he and Kyle Russell will end up being highly rated prospects next year.

I think Russell is probably the long term power bat prospect if Lambo goes and Dee Gordon is the long range replacement for Furcal at SS.

"McDonald, Elbert, Lambo and Hu for Halladay."

Never.
I would never question Coletti again, Thats a start for Halladay.

6-7 prospects, they do not have to trade him.

"I think the Jays would want a Hughes,Montero and maybe 2 decent B+ prospects. Tho I'm not sold on any Yankee prospects
__________________________________________
Right! They're from the Yankees so the must suck11!!!1!!1oneoneoneleventy

Posted by: Start of a New Yankee Dynasty "

Or it could be there is a question about every Yankee's prospect. Hughes is reestablishing himself, but he isn't the uber prospect he was 2 years ago. Montero's bat has been great but every scout/publication thinks he will need to make the move to first, reducing his value a little bit. Jackson might be the Yankee's CF of the future but he profiles as a David DeJesus and not a Beltran type CF (valuable but hardly untouchable). Brackman and Betences the Yanks top two pitching prospects have gotten rocked this year and some of the luster is worn off of them.

Just because someone is questioning the Yankees prospects doesn't mean they are a yankee hater. It just means they are being realistic.

s17 - you make a good point. The Dodgers prospects probably are better, but are lower level guys. You'd really have to trust your scouting department. Making the trade with Philly is the safer move, the Dodger trade the better move if you are convinced you know which ones to take.

I'm a die hard Dodger fan, but I don't see us getting Halladay for McDonald, Lambo, Hu, and Elbert. That's more of a major league ready package, but lets be honest Hu stinks - he's OPSing .640 in Albuquerque.

All of this is why I think Cliff Lee is way more likely IMO.

but Lee isnt getting that package. That package isnt enough. It would have to be Elbert, McDonald, Lambo, Gordon, and C pitching prospect...

McDonald is in the Majors, Elbert at AAA, Lambo at AA, but doing well, Gordon is showing progress, and that would be another arm, it depends on who it is...

For either Lee or Halladay, I would give up McDonald, Elbert and Lambo.

Hu's bat is mediocre but he's a Gold Glove caliber SS. And I still think he can be a .250 hitter in the majors.

I mean getting 2 major league ready or near major league ready starters AND a very good corner OF power bat prospect is already a very nice haul.

I'm not about to throw in Dee Gordon as well. I mean I doubt any team is putting together a package that is appreciably better than McDonald. Elbert, Lambo and Hu.

I just don't see it.

Riccardi knows he isnt getting talent like the trade proposals and getting rid of a bad contract. He will get Halladays salary off, but in the same deal, wont get another bad contract...

mischievous, hate to say it but Aaron Hill isn't going anywhere...he has 20 homers already as a 2nd basemen and is leading almost every major category for a 2B in the AL. He is signed affordably at 2.59M in '09, 4M in '10, 5M in '11, and then the Jays have 3 club options for 2012-2014. His contract is hardly a problem. Secondly if we trade Halladay it will be for prospects, and packaging Wells contract would just deplete the value of Doc. If I'm Ricciardi I ask for Escobar, Gamel, and Salome.

Under that scenario, especially if it's Wells in part of deal, it's not all about just getting talent(although Ricaradi wouldn't give Halladay away for nothing), it's also about getting rid of one bad contract, and the Jays need to clear salaries.

Die-Hard Dodger Fan: Elbert and McDonald aren't truly "major league ready starters", they have underwhelming ML numbers and their minor league numbers are good but not great. Phil Hughes would be almost better than both those guys together. There are WAY too many red flags with McDonald/Elbert. There is no way the Dodgers get a deal done in under 6 prospects. They just don't have the talent and/or ceilings of other team's packages. Lambo is great but he profiles more as a very good corner outfielder (J.D Drew type) not a great one (Ryan Braun). Hu isn't a great option, yeah he's good defensively but I'd take Gordon over him in a heart beat.

Maybe the Dodgers hang on to Martin but then I think Lindblom has to go. They need to give up someone with upside.

This will dictate how Ricciardi's career pushes on in the future.

uh, have you looked at McDonalds numbers this yr in AAA or Elberts this yr in AA/AAA. McDonald will be a #3 pitcher. Elbert was slowed by injury the last few yrs, but is finally healthy and showing it. And Lambo projects as more a Braun type than a Drew. The thing he needed to work on was his Ks/BB. And his ratio is really good this yr thus far. I agree that Hu isnt a starter, although his glove is GG caliber. His bat caused the dodgers to have to resign Furcal, or else he would be our starter this yr. Gordon is a raw prospect, but will be good if he can crack that talent. You have to realize, that a package that has Lambo, Elbert, McDonald, Gordon and maybe DeWitt(?) is a very strong package

I have to agree with s17, JP has done everything he could in that divison. Regarding the Brewers, I was saying that that wont happen because of Melvins comments.

Die-Hard Dodger Fan: For comparison sake look at your package next to the deals for Bedard and Haren. Those deals were centered around Adam Jones and Chris Tillman, and Carlos Gonzalez and Brett Anderson. Tillman and Anderson are light years better than McDonald or Elbert (you could probably use 'and' there) Jones and Gonzalez are far better than Lambo.

Posted by: Steveo26 | July 08, 2009 at 01:42 AM

Yeah and Seattle definitely lost on that trade for Bedard.

And Atlanta lost in their trade of prospects for Teix.

My point is teams have learned that trading a bunch of good, young prospects who are cost controlled for stars is a VERY risky proposition.

If another team wants to beat that offer, then I say let them beat it.

Halladay will be a free agent after 2010 anyway so it could end being a year and a half rental.

Meanwhile, I will gladly take my chances with McDonald, Elbert and Lambo as prospects.

And if Toronto ends up keeping him, then they can pay his salary next year and collect two draft picks for him when he leaves.

As a Dodger fan, I am not that desperate to get Halladay. Toronto is just trying to do what Baltimore did to Seattle and Texas did to Atlanta.

And I don't think it will work this time.

Either they can be reasonable or keep him, pay his big salary and still finish out of the playoffs the next 2 years and get only 2 draft picks for him.