Mets, Dodgers In On Pineiro

7:37pm: According to Tim Brown's Twitter feed, "In the face of economic limitations, Dodgers working on a way to sign Joel Pineiro."

7:09pm: According to Ed Price's Twitter feed, the Mets and Joel Pineiro are talking, with the money somewhere around two years, $15MM.

At that price, you'd have to think a deal could get done quickly. The Mets have been interested in Pineiro all offseason, though Pineiro has seemed to be looking for a deal that rivals or exceeds the three-year, $29.75MM contract Randy Wolf signed with the Brewers.

Two years, $15MM is exactly what Jason Marquis signed for earlier this offseason with the Nationals. Despite the concerns over whether Pineiro can repeat his successful 2009 without Dave Duncan, his pitching coach with the Cardinals, the Mets would be taking a worthwhile risk at that price and length.

Pineiro was 15-12 in 2009 with a 3.49 ERA and just 27 walks in 214 innings pitched.


191 Responses to Mets, Dodgers In On Pineiro Leave a Reply

  1. Two years, $15MM is probably a lot less than Pineiro thought he’d receive entering into the offseason.

    The Mets’ offense and Johan better be really good this season if they want to catch up to the Phillies.

    • honestly, they wont be winning any time soon. The phillies are very good, they’ll win the division, so the mets can get to the playoffs there. Then the wildcard, you have the giants, rockies, maybe the braves depending on the remainder of the offseason goes for them, and then there are always one or two teams that come out of nowhere (Twins last year over the tigers).

      They should look into sheets, i’m not sure how much money they have left to spend… but sheets, and piniero is right there a great 1 2 3.

      • All Day Réy 5 years ago

        Dam, so sick of people already saying certain teams have a lock on the divison or wildcard a lot of things can happen during a season (see mets for example) the team may look good on paper but you never know how it is going to turn out over the course of 162 games.

        • bjsguess 5 years ago

          Of course that’s true. The Royals COULD win the WS. That said, it is highly IMPROBABLE. That’s all he was saying about the Mets. Right now, they are not projected to win the East under any forecasting system.

          • Using the Royals is a poor example. The Mets, while certainly not the favorite, still aren’t a bad team, and before last season, were seen as a major contender to take the division. Due to many injuries (Reyes, Delgado, Beltran, Maine, Putz, Church, etc…) and sub-par seasons (Wright), the Mets didn’t do as well as expected.

            I’m not saying they’re going to take the NL East in 2010, but it’s not as if they have zero chance–like the Royals.

        • bjsguess 5 years ago

          Of course that’s true. The Royals COULD win the WS. That said, it is highly IMPROBABLE. That’s all he was saying about the Mets. Right now, they are not projected to win the East under any forecasting system.

        • NL_East_Rivalry 5 years ago

          Just a question… if the Braves look bad on paper, does that mean we have a chance to work out very well. We looked bad on paper last year, but still managed to challenge for the WC. Now that we have a better team than last year, we still have the problem of not looking good on paper.

          Heck, Nats could do well this year. Their team isn’t an absolute dump like it was last year. Any line-up with Willingham, Dunn, Morgan, and Zimmerman looks good. Nothing too shiny after that though. Barring a melt-down they’ll stay at the bottom.

          • Infield Fly 5 years ago

            Yeah, and that’s why baseball is so great! No matter what you have on paper you have to play the game. And when you do, well…anything could happen. After all, who would’ve predicted the Rays’ run in 2008, or even the ChiSox tearing it up in 2005?!
            That’s why I looooooove this game!

          • NL_East_Rivalry 5 years ago

            Who is your mystery team this year? I know everyone is going to pick Mariners… so I’m going D-Backs. Just a feeling.

          • Infield Fly 5 years ago

            My gut feelings usually kick in a week or two before Pitchers & Catchers. So only working with my head at the moment. I’m guessing we could see a resurgence from the Twins – just on sheer nerve, and maybe rekindling that sudden spirit they showed at the end of the ’09 season.Yeah, I know what you mean about the M’s bandwagon – and here we go again about how they look on paper. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t nail the division. Maybe it’s just that I’m used to that from them.

          • Infield Fly 5 years ago

            My gut feelings usually kick in a week or two before Pitchers & Catchers. So only working with my head at the moment. I’m guessing we could see a resurgence from the Twins – just on sheer nerve, and maybe rekindling that sudden spirit they showed at the end of the ’09 season.Yeah, I know what you mean about the M’s bandwagon – and here we go again about how they look on paper. Still, I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t nail the division. Maybe it’s just that I’m used to that from them.

        • Infield Fly 5 years ago

          You and me both. Seems like a lot of people forget that even in baseball, “experts” are right about 50% of the time – at most.

  2. Wolfbane 5 years ago

    That would be an excellent deal for the Mets, considering Pineiro will likely be much better than Marquis this season

    • melonis_rex 5 years ago

      Unless you think Pineiro’s 2009 was his true talent level, as opposed to like, every other year in his career, they look pretty equal, with the edge over the last three years going to Marquis.

      • I agree to a certain extent, but control isn’t luck–that’s talent. While Pineiro may become more hittable, his control is a skill (a career 2.56 BB/9). That’s why he’s a superior pitcher to Marquis.

  3. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    That’s a great deal for the Mets if they can get it done. A lot of people have been bashing their offseason, but the deals they’re going for make a lot of sense. Seems like they’ve learned from the Oliver Perez fiasco.

  4. lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

    For that price, id like to see the Dodgers in. They have been linked to him, and at 2/15, it could happen..

    • dodgers_suck 5 years ago

      no they wont. they just signed russ ortiz to a minor league contract but has an invitation to spring training to compete for the 4th and 5th spot. keep wishing the dodgers actually sign someone good.

      • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

        Russ Ortiz will not see more than 10 major league innings on the Dodgers, if even that many. He is washed up and will probably be on the 1st cuts of ST.

        With your “keep wishing the dodgers actually sign someone good” comment, I could say the same thing for the Giants…

      • Russ Ortiz signing a minor league contract means nothing. The Dodgers did the same thing with Shawn Estes and Claudio Vargas last off-season. Shawn Estes never made major league team, Claudio Vargas threw a few innings out of the bullpen and was traded.

    • You called that one.

      Edit: I’m not being sarcastic, the Dodgers are showing interest now.

      • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

        It just seemed like a pretty fair price for a #4 guy. Even if he regresses some after last season, we aren’t asking him to be the ace. Just a solid innings guy, something sinkerballers are notorious for.. I do hope they dont get into a bidding war for him though, he isnt good enough to guarrantee 20+, IMO

      • dodgers_suck 5 years ago

        they’re showing interest because he’s cheap. if the mets bump an offer a mill and the dodgers are just sitting there waiting for someone else whose cheaper.

      • dodgers_suck 5 years ago

        they’re showing interest because he’s cheap. if the mets bump an offer a mill and the dodgers are just sitting there waiting for someone else whose cheaper.

  5. Sampsonite168 5 years ago

    This can’t be life.

  6. AceReno 5 years ago

    Dont think this a great idea for the Mets. Pineiro had a breakout year last year with “pitching guru” Dave Duncan, not sure if he will reach our expectations

    • GOLSF 5 years ago

      Wish the Mets could get Dave Duncan…He’d do more for their team than Joel Pinero.

      Do you think he’d go to NYC for $6 million / year??

  7. bomberj11 5 years ago

    I don’t get it. Why don’t the Mets trade for a #2 starter instead of handing money out to an unsure thing?

    • alexnys 5 years ago

      Could you please elaborate who are these sure #2 starters the Mets should try to trade for?

      • GOLSF 5 years ago

        Mets should make a player for either Aaron Harang or Bronson Arroyo now that Reds have signed Chapman and will be looking to clear salary.

        Either pitcher could be had for prospects. Coming in as a trade will lower expectations a bit.

        Mets could also make a play for Dan Haren. He’d be a great fit on their staff. Ask price likely too high though…

        • vtadave 5 years ago

          Wouldn’t Dan Haren be a great fit on 29 other staffs as well? Somehow I don’t see the Dbacks selling there, particularly considering his contract and Brandon Webb’s pending free agency.

        • vtadave 5 years ago

          Wouldn’t Dan Haren be a great fit on 29 other staffs as well? Somehow I don’t see the Dbacks selling there, particularly considering his contract and Brandon Webb’s pending free agency.

    • johnnyb048 5 years ago

      Who exactly would you like them to trade for? And what would you like them to give up?

  8. GOLSF 5 years ago

    I would rather see the Mets land John Garland as he has a much longer track record of success. Pinero could become a huge waste of money and look like Ollie Perez part two.

    • csg 5 years ago

      as a braves fan, Id love to see them waste money on Piniero and Garland.

      • chemteck29 5 years ago

        you mean like Frank Wren did on Lowe??? It’ll be an awefull long time before he lives that contract down,….then to trade Vasquez for a minor leaguer and Cabrera! lol I’d much rather have Omar than Wren any day of the week!

        • csg 5 years ago

          Oliver Perez, Castillo???? should we continue?

          • OK so lets see take Oliver Perez’s remaining contract, add it to Luis Castillo’s remaining contract and you get 36 million. In turn that would be 9 million less than what is left on Lowe’s contract. Yup, lets go on.

          • csg 5 years ago

            Oliver Perez – 3 wins, 66IP = $12 mil
            Derek Lowe – 15 wins, 194IP = 15 mil

            and who gives 4/25 to Luis Castillo?

          • NL_East_Rivalry 5 years ago

            Thing is.. I think that you can actually throw Lowe out there and expect results. Just every once in a while he’ll give up 6 runs in one game, but that’s due to the Braves defense.

          • OK so lets see take Oliver Perez’s remaining contract, add it to Luis Castillo’s remaining contract and you get 36 million. In turn that would be 9 million less than what is left on Lowe’s contract. Yup, lets go on.

  9. fernster 5 years ago

    i agree

  10. Ferrariman 5 years ago

    im doubtful pineiro agrees to a 2/15..maybe a 3/22.5 or something along those lines. He is worth more than Marquis.

    • Wolfbane 5 years ago

      No team will offer him three years at this point

      • Ferrariman 5 years ago

        you forget who the mets GM is..nothing is beyond him. Remeber the Bartolo Colon deal, my body still cringes when i remember it.

    • strikethree 5 years ago

      But the thing is: The Nats overpaid for Marquis.

      He’s better than Carlos Silva too but I’m guessing the Mets won’t top that offer either.

    • Worth more than Marquis? You’re basing that on 2009 alone. Look at Pineiro previous to 2009, he wasn’t very good. At least Marquis has been a consistent, league average pitcher for the last three years. I’d rate them pretty closely but Pineiro has higher ups and lower downs, Marquis is more consistent (at least recently). They both had a bit of success early in their careers and then had some bad years. Both throw ground balls. If you know which Piniero you’re getting then fine, pay him more than Marquis. Otherwise, caveat emptor.

      • chemteck29 5 years ago

        I’d agree, I can’t really value Pineiro of all people over Marquis, although Marquis”s decline over his second half is somewhat suspect. In fact the Mets actually looked to sign him first, but evidently there were some health concerns the Mets had that the Nationals were content to live with. I guess we’ll see when the season starts. Ideally I rather have Arroyo or Harang from Cincy than Pineiro, Garland, or Marquis, but who knows what will happen there!

  11. wright_is_my_boy 5 years ago

    i like the years and the money… not so much the player… but if he could consistently pitch FOR the mets the way he pitched AGAINST the mets it would be an awesome deal…

  12. strikethree 5 years ago

    This is why I never liked the Nat’s Marquis signing.

    Both pitchers stink. Although, Pineiro’s career year was better than Marquis’ career year.

    With Pineiro, it is much more simple: He has to retain that GB% he posted in 2009. (About 20% higher than his usual numbers)

    I think the Mets can go a little lower since their rotation won’t be that great with or without Pineiro.

    It does raise the question: If Minaya didn’t overpay for Bay, couldn’t he have used to the extra cash and sign Chapman instead of Pineiro?

    • wright_is_my_boy 5 years ago

      ……………………………….chapman signed with the reds……..

      • strikethree 5 years ago

        Yes, I know.

        It was a hypothetical question.

    • Wolfbane 5 years ago

      He could have afforded Chapman regardless of Bay. In fact, he’d be probably be able to afford him even if he signs Pineiro

      Piniero will probably regress, but pitchers just don’t forget good control and that high of a groundball percentage in one year

      • strikethree 5 years ago

        I won’t say he could have signed him even after overpaying Bay but I do propose that he could have signed Chapman with no excuse to the contrary if he hadn’t overpay for Bay.

        Chapman’s signing would have greatly changed the media’s feelings towards the Mets’ offseason. It would have surely uplifted the fanbase.

        “Piniero will probably regress, but pitchers just don’t forget good control and that high of a groundball percentage in one year”

        Off the top of my head… Chien Ming Wang and Fausto Carmona. It’s happened before… Although, I don’t expect him to do too poorly.

        • chemteck29 5 years ago

          Wang was due to an injury, there is little doubt of that. I’ve never even heard of the other guy! lol

    • GOLSF 5 years ago

      It was an odd signing for the Nats…

      I really liked Marquis’ one selling point – ‘I’ve played in the playoffs ten years in a row.’ Can’t argue with a track record like that…And, can’t imagine he’ll keep that string going to the Nats..

      Would have liked to have seen the Mets move on Marquis or Garland…

      No real #2 starters on the free agent market unless they deem Ben Sheets healthy enough to risk signing him…

      • strikethree 5 years ago

        How about… they don’t spend that money since there is nothing good for sale?

        I mean, knowing the Mets, they could use that money for next year OR, more importantly, into getting a better medical staff.

  13. inkstainedscribe 5 years ago

    OK … As a Braves fan, I like the idea of 30+ starts going to Pineiro.

    So Minaya ended 2009 with an ace and four mediocrities and will open 2010 with an ace and four mediocrities … and a higher payroll.

    • Wolfbane 5 years ago

      Pineiro is better than a “mediocrity”

      • inkstainedscribe 5 years ago

        K rate never good and declining. Career ERA+ 98

        Sounds like a mediocrity to me. LaRussa/Duncan got their Jedi mind tricks to work just long enough to let Pineiro cash in (and make him another team’s problem).

        • Ferrariman 5 years ago

          how do you expect someone maintain an incredible ground ball rate and have high number of strike outs? what is he? Randy Johnson?

      • csg 5 years ago

        you may want to go look at his 2004-2008 #’s…mediocre may be generous

    • GOLSF 5 years ago

      That’s all the proof I need this is a bad signing for the Mets – Braves fans clamoring for it!

      Braves Fans – focus on the Phillies, not the lowly Mets…

  14. Ferrariman 5 years ago

    id like to see a 3/18 deal with 6MM in incentives..2MM per year for 30 starts and a 50% groundball ratio..if you can do a incentive based on that.

  15. Looks like a good deal for the Met’s but Pineiro wasn’t very good prior to 2009. Seems like a large gamble that he’ll hold form. I suppose Citi Field would work to his benefit and he’d be pitching for basically the same salary that he got in 2009, it’s not like he’d be getting a huge raise based on last years work. If he doesn’t regress to his previous self then it’d be a fine deal, if he does regress it’s going to look pretty bad. For the Met’s sake I hope they have a pretty good idea which Joel they’re getting.

    • GOLSF 5 years ago

      I’m sure that stepping out of the bright lights and media glare of Saint Louis for the backwater New York Mets will help take some of the pressure off…

      Pinero would be a disaster in NYC….The town would eat him alive…

  16. Eric 5 years ago

    If the cost is just 2YR/15M I wouldn’t mind seeing him back in Seattle. I think Rick Adair could have a similar effect to Duncan on Pineiro. Adair was the guy who helped Washburn develop that Sinker in 09.

    I would like the M’s to sign a #3 starting pitcher to put behind Felix and Lee. I like Garland for this, but when a talent like Pineiro is said to be signing so low after a break out year then I say find out if he has any interest in returning to the Safe.

  17. I would like this move at 2/$15

  18. NYYANKEES 5 years ago

    wonder how far the Dodgers would go for him

    • bbxxj 5 years ago

      Maybe a heavy backloaded deal from money freed up from Manny’s expiring deal.

      • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

        little to no money is freed up from Manny. He makes 10M this year and will make ~8M for the next couple years after the deal expires. Most of the deal is backloaded..

        • True. Manny makes $10m this season and $8.3333m in 2011-2013.

          But the Dodgers will have Kuroda’s ~$12m coming off the books after 2010. Still, not much sense to backload a contract right now. The Dodgers payroll still figures to be significantly less than it was in 2008, and probably lower than 2009. Backloading/deferring too much more won’t give them much flexibility in 2011 and on…

      • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

        little to no money is freed up from Manny. He makes 10M this year and will make ~8M for the next couple years after the deal expires. Most of the deal is backloaded..

  19. NYJonny 5 years ago

    How long would it take to get a deal done, if it gets to a bidding war you have to think that the Mets would win

  20. Ferrariman 5 years ago

    lol it would be pretty funny if the dodgers and cardinals switched padilla and pineiro.

    • dire straits 5 years ago

      Who from the 2, in your opinion, is a better pitcher?

      • vtadave 5 years ago

        Pineiro is safe IMO, but I’d rather have Padilla for a year than Pineiro for 2-3.

      • vtadave 5 years ago

        Pineiro is safe IMO, but I’d rather have Padilla for a year than Pineiro for 2-3.

  21. Spirit of '69 5 years ago

    Pineiro is not a #2, which is what the Mets need. But options appear to be limited. Would still like to see them make a deal. I will say this for Pineiro, even a healthy Met lineup struggled with him. He throws strikes and doesn’t walk many. A welcome change from what we saw last year.

    • inkstainedscribe 5 years ago

      Mistaken “like.” Wouldn’t like this if I were a Mets fan. Like this move, however, as not a Mets fan.

  22. John Gyna 5 years ago

    As a Mets fan, I say: Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!

  23. dire straits 5 years ago

    My crystal ball tells me the Dodgers aren’t going to outbid the Mets.

    • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

      Everyone knows that. But if they both come in with 2/15, I think he picks the Dodgers simply because our team is on the rise and some(or all) of your biggest pieces are coming off injury

    • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

      Everyone knows that. But if they both come in with 2/15, I think he picks the Dodgers simply because our team is on the rise and some(or all) of your biggest pieces are coming off injury

  24. Pineiro changed his repertoire; he throws his pitches at different rates, particularly his 2-seam fastball. I don’t think he’ll need Dave Duncan around to continue to use his 2-seamer at a high rate. If it were a mechanical or mental-toughness issue then I would be far more concerned about him without Duncan.

    He’d make for a really solid #3 starter, and to get him at 2 years in the $15-20M range is a major bargain, especially considering the deal Marquis got.

    • GOLSF 5 years ago

      His career stats scream utter mediocrity. He has a long and established track record. He’s had three and a half good seasons and more that were either wiped out due to injury or were terrible.

      This is his one chance for big money. Hope he gets it and hope it is not from the Mets…

  25. bleedblueking 5 years ago

    id like to see the braves overpay for lowe, oh wait…

  26. Isn’t Washburn better in the NL than Piniero?

  27. dollar1 5 years ago

    I bet this whole things ends with Pineiro in NY and a whole bunch of “the Mets outbid themselves” ‘s.

  28. markjsunz 5 years ago

    He will go to the mets, McCort will never let coletti sign him unless they can talk Pinero into taking defered payment,Not Likely.

  29. danny91 5 years ago

    this is my mets lineup that i have been wantong for a whiile now

    Lineup:

    1. Jose Reyes SS
    2. Carlo Beltran CF
    3. Jason Bay LF
    4. David Wright 3B
    5. Orlando Hudson 2B
    6. Bengie Molina C
    7. Jeff Franceour RF
    8. Daniel Murphy 1B

    Bench :

    1. Henry Blanco C
    2. Alex Cora INF
    3. Angel Pagan OF
    4. __________ ___
    Rotation :

    1. Johan Santana
    2. Joel Piniero
    3. Oliver Perez
    4. Mike Pelfrey
    5. John Maine

    Bullpen:

    CL – Fransisco Rodriguez
    SU – Ryota Igarashi

    MR – Kelvim Escobar
    MR – Pedro Feliciano
    MR – Bobby Parnell
    MR – ___________
    MR – ___________

    LR – Brian Stokes

    • GOLSF 5 years ago

      Looks great. This lineup should place 3rd or 4th in the division…

      Why not dream big and add:

      1) a real 1B?
      2) Better depth than ‘Jo-El’ Pinero at the #2?
      3) Better depth on the bench in case of injuries.

      Omar has done okay this offseason. That said, he must address the SP and 1B positions.

      I do agree on Hudson as he would be a solid compliment to their infield and lineup. Not the kiss of death if they stick with Castillo and maybe sign a backup with stronger legs…Castillo played with much heart in 2009.

    • “1. Jose Reyes SS
      2. Carlo Beltran CF
      3. Jason Bay LF
      4. David Wright 3B
      5. Orlando Hudson 2B
      6. Bengie Molina C
      7. Jeff Franceour RF
      8. Daniel Murphy 1B”

      That lineup actually excites you? Maybe for an opposing pitcher.

  30. danny91 5 years ago

    anyone has any critisicms comment please

    • chemteck29 5 years ago

      If Escobar is healthy, he’ll likely be the setup guy,…..atleast till he’s strong enough for the rotation. Hudson at this point seems unlikely(unfortunetly) I think it’s more likely to be Reyes, Castillo Beltran, Bay, Wright, Francouer, Murphy, Molina or if by some miracle Delgado is healthy enough,….Reyes, Castillo, Beltran, Bay, Delgado Wright, Francouer, Molina.

      • GOLSF 5 years ago

        Anyone think Escobar could be a starter? He’s had two great seasons in that role where he outperformed anything Joel Pinero has done…The Mets are stocked with setup guys (tip of the cap to Omar for his restocking of the pen this offseason).

    • Jdragz519 5 years ago

      As much as I like Hudson the mets will NOT sign him because no one will take Luis Castillo’s contract. Im not the biggest Luis Castillo fan but give the guy his credit, he worked his ass off to get in shape for the 09 season and hit .302 with an OBP. of over .400

  31. danny91 5 years ago

    im tryin to do my best with wats left loll… u know omar aint doin any trades hes all about free agents

    • vtadave 5 years ago

      Except for that Santana trade…and the one for Putz…and Francoeur

    • vtadave 5 years ago

      Except for that Santana trade…and the one for Putz…and Francoeur

  32. danny91 5 years ago

    see this is what i have been dealing with for the last couple of years, projecting the mets to do good with what they have… delgado pelfrey maine perez but we alll have to face the fact that they dont live up to the potential we are all putting them on…….. met fans have to realize that compared to the angels and compared to the yankees and compared to the phillies and dodgers, we just dont have that good of a team, with our ballpark being rediculously pitcher friendly, we sahould have gotten lackey piniero and any other possible number 2/ number 3 our team is never going to be offense friendly we need to focus on pitching, and we didnt manage to do so for the last couple of years, we just dont have good top 3 pitching, if we had santana lackey and piniero we would have been in GREAT shape … but thats all history

  33. Andy_B 5 years ago

    I’m a cards fan, saw both the bad and the good with Pineiro. He really looked horrible in 08, and was awesome through most of 09. I have mixed feelings on him, on one hand I am glad the cards didn’t sign him to a long term deal, I do however think he’s definitely worth the risk of a 2 year deal. I get that you don’t buy a pitcher on a career year, but I think there is a good enough chance that Pineiro has embraced the sinker, and his success will be duplicated.

    actually I wouldn’t mind if he wanted to bolster his resume with a one year deal with the cards to work under Dave Duncan again.

    • Ferrariman 5 years ago

      Would be pretty sweet to have that kind of rotation, but not too likely

    • Ferrariman 5 years ago

      Would be pretty sweet to have that kind of rotation, but not too likely

  34. for the record… bill james has pinero throwing 205 IP with a 4.17 ERA… for some reason he has pinero’s walks doubling this year to 53?

    marquis… 202 IP and 4.37 ERA… 77 BB
    washburn… 155 IP 4.09 ERA…

    obviously pinero figures to be the most valuable, the mets FO also feels like Pinero can sustain his numbers away from dave duncan. they view him as a 3/4 type and like that he keeps the ball down and throws strikes. I have to agree

    and btw pinero also has better career numbers…

  35. I would hope they pick up Pinero and resign Pidella for tehere fourh and fifth spot they got the best bullpin in the league .

    • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

      Um what about Elbert, McDonald, Haegar or even Lindblom? They all should get a shot at the extra spot instead of signing both Padilla and Pineiro

      • By all accounts Lindblom is being groomed to be a reliever. If the Dodgers decided to put him in the starting rotation, it wouldn’t be until after a good long stint at AA. I doubt that happens.

        Elbert, McDonald and Haeger all have a good amount of potential, but no way do I want to hand those guys 2 of 5 spots in the rotation (and potentially a 3rd spot if Kuroda suffers from more injuries). Do you really want to rely on those guys to start 35-50% of the Dodgers games (depending on injuries)?

        McDonald was a disaster when he started last season. He’ll get another shot eventually, but he shouldn’t be given it out of the gate when he’s extremely valuable in the bullpen.

        Elbert still needs a lot of work. His BB/9 (and HBP rates, too) is way too high. He only averaged 5 IP per start in the minors last year. He needs to start the season in AAA and work on his control and pitching deeper into games.

        Haeger I like. He’s a great #5 candidate because he can eat a ton of innings. If Torre is patient with him and the knuckleball is working, he could easily get 200 innings out of the guy over the season. Having an innings eater in that #5 spot will really help out, hopefully avoiding the overuse Torre puts on the bullpen. Mota, Belisario, Kuo, Troncoso all missed time with injury last season, I’d say due to overuse. Proctor and Wade same story in ’08.

        But the Dodgers need somebody half decent to fill that #4 spot. Pineiro, Garland, Padilla, Washburn, Pedro, Smoltz, Sheets, Bedard, Davis, Wang… I don’t really care at this point. There isn’t enough demand for these guys for them to get all that much. The Dodgers will pick up one.

        Haeger #5 spot, McDonald bullpen, Elbert starting in AAA.

        • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

          The word I have heard is he started part of last year and if he doesnt make the team out of ST this year, he will start in AAA. (That’s via TBLA). It seems they arent sure what to do with him because he was a closer in Purdue, but apparently has started. I just put his name because he has started in the past and could be MLB ready…

          With Elbert, just glancing at his stats, it seems he has worked on his control almost every year(except while he was in AA in 06/07). The HBP, i would guess, are because of his slider that has extreme movement and the running fastball. If it starts too far inside, it will hit someone. Thats something that gets worked on as he gets older. Dodger prospects(at least SPs) have been brought to the majors when ready, get a little bullpen time, then get a shot at the rotation, even if their control is average or worse. They let them try to figure it out with Honeycutt. Look at Billingsley and Kershaw. They were brought up with killer stuff, but average or worse control. Also, I believe he was on a pitch/innings count because it was his first year after injury.

          I have said that I really like Haegar, espically if we dont sign another pitcher. His ERA was ~3.8 in 3 starts and then never got another shot. A knucleballer who can eat tons of innings from the 4th spot(if we dont sign another FA, Haegar would be 4 and Elbert would be 5) to give the ‘pen some rest from possible short starts from Billz or Kershaw.

          And I do agree, McDonald in the pen. He will probably get a shot sometime this year, but not out of ST unless he impresses.

    • lakersdodgersyankees4life 5 years ago

      Um what about Elbert, McDonald, Haegar or even Lindblom? They all should get a shot at the extra spot instead of signing both Padilla and Pineiro

  36. I would hope they pick up Pinero and resign Pidella for tehere fourh and fifth spot they got the best bullpin in the league .

  37. Yaks 5 years ago

    I’d rather see Doug Davis in a met uniform. But still 2/15m wouldn’t be a bad deal.

  38. Guest 5 years ago

    Pinero makes a lot of sense for 5 million. The infield defense is pretty damn solid with Dewitt being the wildcard.

  39. .Yes they should give Elbert, Mcdonald, Haegar a try but they need pitchers that have experiance like Pineiro and Padilla, if they go for a six starter spot then rotate these players around, they are young and will be starters soon.

    • Guest 5 years ago

      Elbert should be the 5 starter.

      • bleedblueking 5 years ago

        mcdonald needs to see some starts as the #5 guy too, he has incredible stuff and grew as a big leaguer at the end of the season after struggling at the beggining of the season. With that said the signing of a #4 starter is imminent seeing as the dodgers need a veteran prescence in the rotation other than kuroda. not many people will give credit to the dodgers pitching staff but in my opinion the dodgers have the best bullpen in baseball(yeah despite the fact they didnt show up in the NLCS and i wont try to bail em out by saying they were overworked). kershaw is the best young pitcher(that hasnt proven himself) in the game. the only starter on the rotation that i am not sold on is billingsley, he has all the pottential in the world but at times he seems to get rattled, stops going after batters and starts pitching around them. i really hope this is a result of nagging injuries or a simple mechanics problem because billingsley will play a huge part in the dodgers playoff hopes next year

  40. cmat91 5 years ago

    i was reading something on another blog and i dont think its impossible to do. make a trade for josh johnson. Mejia, Holt, and Tejada? add pelfrey or maine? i dont know if thats enough to get it done but i think thats a starting point. Marlins love developing talent and im sure they can develop those guys to stars. that would give us a number 2 that we can sign to the extension he wants. what you you guys think?

    • Infield Fly 5 years ago

      I could be wrong but I everything I hear says the Marlins are determined to hold on to Johnson for as long as they can before they HAVE to give him up. Also, I wonder if the Marlins have the will to sign within the division – when they are not on fire to save money?

  41. cmat91 5 years ago

    so lets say the pineiro deal gets done and they can trade for johnson. im not trying to be living in the clouds either. they are looking for a number 2 and johnson would fit the bill perfectly considering the marlins arent known for shelling out a bunch of cash and they always get after everyones 1 and 2 top prospects. i think this is possible rather than a dream.

    Santana
    Johnson
    Pineiro
    Pelfrey/Maine
    Perez/Niese/Nieve/Escobar

    very unlikely they would trade for both Johnson AND Harrang/Arroyo but they can do it and i would only like to see them do that if it added Brandon Phillips to the picture (ill support why i rather have phillips over hudson and castillo later.

    Santana
    Johnson
    Harrang/Arroyo
    Pineiro
    Perez/Nieve/Escobar

    for Johnson i say Mejia, Holt, and Tejada (possibly adding Pelfrey)

    Harrang/Arroyo and Brandon Phillips
    Maine, Niese, Flores, F-Mart (possibly adding Pelfrey if not in trade above)

    Clears up most of the farm but seeing as you have young guys in next years FA, you can sign franchise players there as well. also Johnson is only 25.

    I choose Phillips over Hudson and Castillo because he is a gold glover and defense is what is going to win games at Citi. also, its an argument that his number are inflated by his home field. but he has more RBIs and the same amount of HRs away than he did at home. he is also a young player who can be a solid 2B for years and years to come.

    so overall the Mets give up:
    Maine
    Flores
    Tejada
    F-Mart
    Pelfrey (hopefully not but most likely)
    Niese
    Holt
    Mejia

    for

    Johnson
    Harrang/Arroyo
    Brandon Phillips

    now before bashing away, how about a good conversation with supporting arguments. thoughts?

  42. montycapuletti 5 years ago

    The perfect fit for the Mets would have been the pitcher that was traded to the Yankees in Javier Vasquez. Excellent NL #s last year. Wont have same stats pitching in the AL East but will def do well. Like all players not named Andruw Jones they seem to dial it up a notch when in a contract year. He will def be a type A so you can recoup 2 draft picks if he leaves at the end of the year. He would have been an excellent fit as their #2 starter right behind Johan. Basically a 1 year rental at 7 1/2 million for the yanks. Vasquez money minus Melky Money. Not bad. Unfortunately for them the consistent 15 game winner is not out there on the free agent market. Trades withstanding of course. Could they revisit the Oswalt trade talks? They are not getting a Dan Haren bc he costs more than they have to offer. So do they sign a Piniero/Garland type starter or do they take a gamble on a Sheets/Wang/Bedard/Moulder. Its a very tough call bc they already have so many ? marks in their rotation after Santana. They have a decent bullpen a good lineup. What they need is a starter and not in 2011 but this year. They cant suffer through another year of poor attendance at Citifield. I think they should have taken a gamble on Brett Myers. Just my opinon. Think he may have pitched with something to prove all year and would have loved to stick it to the Phillies. My opinion of course. Really interested to see where the fans think they are getting that #2 starter from.

  43. Amazins22 5 years ago

    I would of been more comfortable with Jason Marquis because he is a proven 15 game winning every year but since the mets let him go for a 7.5 million a season i guess we have to make an offer to Piniero. If they do get him at a reasonable price (not Wolf money) id be happy but they should also look to aquire Ben Sheets because if he is back to old form the mets would have a pretty solid pitching staff.

    1- Johan
    2- Sheets
    3- Piniero
    4- Big Pelf
    5- Perez, Maine or Neise

    Maybe move Maine to the bullpen to keep his shoulder healthy. Or trade him for Corey Hart and have a solid 4th outfielder and would make Pagan expendable and i think the Royals have interest in him.

    Also since eeveryone keeps taking shots at the mets starting pitching take a look at how their 2006 starting rotation compares
    1- Glavin
    2- Orlando Hernandez (Replaced by Maine who did great)
    3- Pedro Martinez
    4- Zambrano and Perez
    5- STEVE TRACHSEL

    And with a rotation that looks like that they won 97 games. So all the Met haters need to calm down abou their rotation. Maybe the Phillies should be concerned about how poorly Cole Hamels did last year. Only time will tell

  44. Ricky 5 years ago

    Pineiro has had only one good year. I hate this move, plus our infield defense is not exactly the 99′ Mets. Whatever, I hope they dump Castillo and sign Hudon.

    • maybe you should check some stats before sharing your opinion… Pineiro has had a sub 4 ERA 3 or 4 times… depending if you want to count his 6-2 2.03 ERA in 11 starts his first year up

  45. Supermet 5 years ago

    Piniero to Mets is a good idea

  46. Supermet 5 years ago

    Piniero to Mets is a good idea

  47. Supermet 5 years ago

    the NY METS should sign: Piniero, Sheets, Ankiel, O. Hudson, and Blalock

  48. Supermet 5 years ago

    the NY METS should sign: Piniero, Sheets, Ankiel, O. Hudson, and Blalock

  49. Supermet 5 years ago

    the mets need an upgrade

  50. Supermet 5 years ago

    the mets need an upgrade

  51. bomberj11 5 years ago

    Exactly.

  52. Wolfbane 5 years ago

    You can’t be seriously comparing the two. Piniero walked only 27 batters in over 200 innings, and led the MLB in groundball percentage.

    Plus, it would be only for 7.5 million per year, which is almost chump change when you have a payroll like the Mets.

  53. 2YRS @ 15 MILLION is not close to Perez, it’s less than WOlf got and he’s right in the same quality (atleast thus far) as Marquis. Is he the ideal choice? No, but he is is a an extreme ground ball pitcher in a very large park which can only benefit him. Would I like Duncan to come with him? absolutely! But at that price and contract length, I can’t argue with the move. Garland might be a better choice, but it would likely cost more than 2 @ 15 to get him to the east coast.

  54. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    There’s a little bit of a difference between 2 years and $15 million and 3 years at $36. Just a little bit. And it’s not like the Mets are hamstrung in the way that the Reds will be if Chapman is a bust. Or the Braves are about to become with Derek Lowe. Or the Brewers will be because the Wolf deal is ridiculous. 2 years is perfectly reasonable for that price, especially for a team in the NY market. And Piniero is much more of a known quantity than you might think. He has a ceiling way higher than Garland, who is pretty much the definition of “mediocre”.

  55. bbxxj 5 years ago

    He may not walk many guys but he isn’t a high K guy…meaning his defense really needs to back him up. Considering the Mets have Bay, Fenchy, Castillo and perhaps Delgado, Pinero ma struggle in New York for a different reason.

  56. Wrong.

    Piniero has outstanding control, Perez has none. And were talking about 2 years at 7.5 million, not 4 years at 10 million.

    Very bad comparison.

  57. chemteck29 5 years ago

    Most of Pineiro’s ground balls are hit to the left side of the infield which happens to house (hopefully) two all-star caliber players for the Mets so I doubt defense will be a huge issue for him. That said if Delgado isn’t 100% healthy I hope they just let Murphy play who is certainly an upgrade on Defense,…even over a healthy Delgado!

  58. strikethree 5 years ago

    2 years for 7.5 mil each as opposed to Chapman’s 6 year/5 mil per year.

    Do you really think the Red’s will be cash strapped with that deal?

    His 2010 salary is supposedly 1 mil.

    And, who has more trade value? A 22 year old 100mph fireballer or a GB veteran coming off a career year?

  59. chemteck29 5 years ago

    That would be the guy who doesn’t walk the ballpark in Pineiro! Chapman is nothing more than college prospect with an above average fastball which he can’t control, and some average offspeed stuff which,…..he also can’t control. There is a reason that teams with some of the best scouts in the world didn’t want to spend much north of 15 million on him. Cincy is taking a huge risk,,…..which may or may not pan out. But to answer your question, clearly Pineiro has more value, atleast at this point.

  60. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    That’s an impossible comparison. No way the Reds will trade him after one year. That said, if the Mets fall out of contention in the middle of the 2011 season and Piniero is at or near the level he’s been the past year and a half, what contender wouldn’t be somewhat interested? Piniero is somewhat of a proven commodity and when you compare this deal to others that have been made for veteran pitchers (see Lowe, Wolf, Perez, Jeff Suppan, Marquis, etc.) this is a very reasonable deal for a team in New York.

    Also, $5 million to the Reds means a lot more than $7.5 would to the Mets.

  61. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    As opposed to Aroldis Chapman. That’s how.

  62. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    Well you HAVE to compare the contracts. That’s the name of the game. Let’s not kid ourselves: the Mets are not competing with the Phillies this year without a #2 starter (and probably more), something they simply don’t have the means to acquire. Would you rather be stuck with Garland for three years who gives you absolutely nothing you don’t already have, or Piniero on a reasonable deal for just two that makes the Mets players in a better pitching market next year?Yes, I agree consistency is critical. But I think the Mets view these guys as interchangeable, so getting the better deal (even if it doesn’t mean as you seem to think the better pitcher) will help them long term. Piniero makes sense for more reasons than the pitcher itself.

  63. GOLSF 5 years ago

    Agreed on Garland. I really like his consistency and track record in a big market (Chicago). He’d be a much surer fit for the money than Pinero.

    Only plus of the Mets signing Pinero is he is a ‘Mets killer’, i.e., pitcher who has a knack for dominating the Mets regardless of how he is performing at the time.

  64. GOLSF 5 years ago

    Hmmmm….Name a bright signing?

    Carlos Beltran
    KRod
    Billy Wagner
    Darren Oliver
    Chad Bradford

    The Mets have decent scouting and generally make better decisions than the other NYC team regarding free agents. They have equal media spotlight and less margin for error than the Yanks.

  65. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    About the pitcher: He is more proven than a 22-year old defector. You have to at least give me that.About the contract: it’s not the duds that were given out to Derek Lowe, Jeff Suppan, Randy Wolf, Oliver Perez, and Jason Marquis.I hope that’s clear enough for you.

  66. chemteck29 5 years ago

    I guarantee that A) Garland doesn’t sign a 1 year deal to play in NY and B) Garland won’t sign for less than the 7.5 million that they are offering Pineiro and if that was possible we would have seen Garland at a press conferance holding a Mets jersey by now.! If Garland signs a 1 year deal it will be for a team out West. I get it, he has been consistent over the years, but what Garland has also so been is the definition of Mediocre on some pretty darn good teams, teams that made the playoffs,….frankly he’s a shell of the pitcher he was when he was winning 18 games a season. Granted, I would still take him over Pineiro if the money was equal but simply put I doubt that’s going to happen!

  67. Marquis isn’t the definition of consistency, he’s the definition mediocrity.

  68. strikethree 5 years ago

    I’d like to see Pineiro repeat his 2009 numbers before making conclusions. However, I do see that he posted a walk rate about 1 per nine innings lower than his usual rate and a 20% increase in his GB% with a tick lower in his fastball mph. How much of this is of true talent and how much is just luck?

    This is the same guy who posted WARs lower than 1 in the 3 seasons prior to 2009.

  69. The K-Rod signing was terrible. Just because he had more save opportunities than anyone else in ’08 doesn’t make him the best closer, and NO closer is worth the money he got.

    Yes, the deal pretty much had to happen, but that doesn’t make it good.

  70. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    You’re forgetting something else the Mets rotation doesn’t have and needs more than anything: a capable number two starter. Garland does not and cannot provide that, and to offer a three-year deal to a guy who does nothing special except eat innings only makes it harder for them to GET that number two starter in a year when the market is better and the Phillies are older.

    As for me personally (and this is my opinion, hardly fact), I don’t care for a guy who’s going to give me an ERA of 4.85 on a three-year deal when there’s someone who for one year and several million less might give me a run less than that, knowing full well I’m not championship-caliber until I get better than what ANY of these guys can offer.

    We clearly are speaking two different languages here. I like the deal, you’d rather spend more in terms of years and dollars for a more proven, though altogether unspecial commodity.

  71. chemteck29 5 years ago

    His point is that if Pineiro is even close to the numbers he did in ’09 (who knows stranger things have happened) at 7.5 million for 1 year Pineiro could easily be unloaded if the Mets were to sign an upgrade starter in the 2010 offseason. At that price Omar would have teams lining up to trade for him, but then again if he actually repeats those numbers again, I can’t see them trading him, but they certainly wouldn’t have any trouble doing so.

  72. GOLSF 5 years ago

    Why was the K-Rod signing terrible?

    They got him for around 12 mil over three years. He’s not injured and is only signed for three years despite the fact he was seeking a much longer commitment.

    He was the best reliever on the market in a year the Mets had to sign a closer.

    He was lights out for the first half until the Mets began to tank.

    Not a bad signing at all. He keeps them competitive going into 2010.

  73. strikethree 5 years ago

    They won’t trade him after a year. My point was, that during the duration of either contract, Chapman is the more valuable trade candidate.

    Teams will always want young pitchers with good stuff. I won’t say he has great stuff because I’ve never seen him face MLB hitting. Teams like pitchers who can throw 95+ mph. That’s all you have to do to get people interested. Is that a good evaluator of pitching talent? No, but that’s how MLB teams work.

    Chapman is not a proven commodity but neither is Pineiro; the guy was horrendous before 2009. There are a lot of pitchers who do well for one year… and then they go back to tanking.

    Here are just 2008 examples of similar pitchers: Kyle Lohse, Todd Wellemeyer, Aaron Cook, Braden Looper

    They all fell back to Earth after one decent year.

  74. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    I think that’s pretty fair to say about all parties involved, but I also think a team in New York giving out a shorter deal to a veteran is much safer than a team in Cincinnati shelling out $30 million to a defector. No question about Chapman’s upside, I just question whether or not that’s a better deal than a short-term deal to Piniero. The Mets can eat the Piniero deal a whole lot easier than the Reds can eat the Chapman contract if he fails to pitch well. Obviously anybody would rather have Chapman if he shakes out as the Reds hope.

  75. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    You can’t possibly know what a guy will or will not do in the future. Piniero-bashing for the sake of Piniero-bashing does nothing to help your argument.

  76. GOLSF 5 years ago

    Are you refering to the Daniel Murphy who made 10(!) errors while playing only 101 games at 1B? Could this be the same Daniel Murphy who managed only a .313 OBP while turning in a blistering .427 slugging from the power position?

    Daniel Murphy makes me long for the days of David Segui…He looked like an over matched backup playing out of position (WTF is his position anyway?) for the Mets last year.

    I hope to never have to watch another season of him playing 1B…The Mets should have enough payroll to get a 1B in the caliber of their league average at least…

  77. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    And I agree that Piniero is no number two. But there’s no way the Mets convince Garland to come East without drastically overpaying him. A Garland deal would hamstring them a lot more than a Piniero deal and frankly, he’s simply not head-and-shoulders above Piniero. So why bother?

    Piniero, all things considered, on a two-year contract is a better deal moving forward.

  78. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    Well apparently i-before-e, except after “c” doesn’t apply. haha.

    I’m just saying you can’t know Pineiro is going to have a bad year this year. He could have a great year, and he could be the Anthony Young you seem to think he is. I think it’s reckless and doesn’t do anything to your argument to say a guy “SUCKS” because you think someone else is better. Using that terminology undermines the perfectly fair arguments you were making before. That’s all I’m saying.

  79. Ferrariman 5 years ago

    but you gotta admit he will probably be better than his career numbers after adding a Sinker Ball pitch and polishing his curveball. you just dont forget that stuff in a few months.

  80. strikethree 5 years ago

    I think we should look at it as should Minaya have signed Chapman instead of going after Pineiro? Yes, the Reds have less resources than the Mets but what if the Mets had signed Chapman to the same deal? I’m not aware of the Mets current offseason budget but considering if Minaya hadn’t overpaid for Bay (I estimate that they could have saved maybe 15 mil), then there would be no excuse for being financially unable to sign Chapman.The point isn’t that the Reds are more financially constrained than the Mets (that is a given); rather, should the Mets have signed Chapman instead?

  81. johnnyb048 5 years ago

    I think that’s a very fair question. I don’t think the Bay deal hurt their Chapman chances as much as you might. I do think two things: a) they were afraid of getting into a bidding war with the Red Sox and/or the Yankees and b) even for that relatively (by NY standards) modest price, Minaya would probably lose his job if Chapman busted.

    Minaya undoubtedly chose the safer deal, but I think it’s very much open for debate whether or not that was the right decision. I don’t know that we can know that yet though.

  82. strikethree 5 years ago

    But if he hadn’t overpaid for Bay, couldn’t he sign both Chapman AND Pineiro?

    Also, after 3 gruesome seasons, the guy is still the GM.

    If he had signed Chapman, the potential reward is a lot greater than the risks. Yes, he could be a flop but I think Minaya is already on the hot seat. If I were the Wilpons, only a WS ring this year would convince me to keep Minaya. (With or without Chapman)

    With that payroll, it is just inconceivable that the Mets haven’t made the playoffs in 3 years.

  83. strikethree 5 years ago

    But if he hadn’t overpaid for Bay, couldn’t he sign both Chapman AND Pineiro?

    Also, after 3 gruesome seasons, the guy is still the GM.

    If he had signed Chapman, the potential reward is a lot greater than the risks. Yes, he could be a flop but I think Minaya is already on the hot seat. If I were the Wilpons, only a WS ring this year would convince me to keep Minaya. (With or without Chapman)

    With that payroll, it is just inconceivable that the Mets haven’t made the playoffs in 3 years.

  84. chemteck29 5 years ago

    We got lots of guys that “could” win 12-15 games, we need a guy that will likely win 16- 19 and Garland just isn’t that guy anymore,…neither is Pineiro likely to be, but given his propensity for GB’s you have to like his chances better than Garlands. That said as I stated before, if the money was equal I would still take Garland over Pineiro, but he won’t take the same money as Pineiro to come to the Mets, he would likely take less to stay out west,….Dodgers possibly.

  85. chemteck29 5 years ago

    We got lots of guys that “could” win 12-15 games, we need a guy that will likely win 16- 19 and Garland just isn’t that guy anymore,…neither is Pineiro likely to be, but given his propensity for GB’s you have to like his chances better than Garlands. That said as I stated before, if the money was equal I would still take Garland over Pineiro, but he won’t take the same money as Pineiro to come to the Mets, he would likely take less to stay out west,….Dodgers possibly.

  86. chemteck29 5 years ago

    Omar just picked another Lefty up, though I admit for the moment his name escapes me. That said if Escobar is healthy it won’t matter if the batter is on the left, right, or behind home plate he will still get them out with regularity!

  87. chemteck29 5 years ago

    Omar just picked another Lefty up, though I admit for the moment his name escapes me. That said if Escobar is healthy it won’t matter if the batter is on the left, right, or behind home plate he will still get them out with regularity!

  88. vtadave 5 years ago

    Can you share your wins projection system? Love to have that for fantasy purposes.

  89. vtadave 5 years ago

    Can you share your wins projection system? Love to have that for fantasy purposes.

  90. MeTsOwNyOu 5 years ago

    I may be wrong here, but didn’t Duncan help him develop a sinker ball LAST YEAR? If I’m wrong please correct me. But in the case that I’m right, whose to say that success from last year isn’t carried to this year? Considering he’s the best available SP, (not counting Sheets because of injury concerns and $ demands), I don’t see how this could be a bad move for the Mets. A rotation of Santana/Piniero/Pelfrey/Ollie/Niese looks better than Santana/Pelfrey/Ollie/Maine/Niese. We also don’t know if the Mets are going to trade for a SP, and now that the Reds have Chapman, they will probably looks to shed some payroll from their SP

  91. MeTsOwNyOu 5 years ago

    I may be wrong here, but didn’t Duncan help him develop a sinker ball LAST YEAR? If I’m wrong please correct me. But in the case that I’m right, whose to say that success from last year isn’t carried to this year? Considering he’s the best available SP, (not counting Sheets because of injury concerns and $ demands), I don’t see how this could be a bad move for the Mets. A rotation of Santana/Piniero/Pelfrey/Ollie/Niese looks better than Santana/Pelfrey/Ollie/Maine/Niese. We also don’t know if the Mets are going to trade for a SP, and now that the Reds have Chapman, they will probably looks to shed some payroll from their SP

  92. Strikethree, it wasn’t luck that Pinero had that ERA and posted the numbers he did.
    1) The “tick lower” on his average fastball was due to the fact that he started using a sinker as his primary pitch and thus he had no need to throw a 4-seamer.
    2) Walk rates are walk rates. If he improved his control, then fine and dandy. If that was a result of Dave Duncan, then fine and dandy. At the very least if he regresses to his career average of 2.56 BB/9 then that isn’t bad at all.
    3) GB%. Once again, DUE TO THE SINKER THAT HE INCORPORATED AS HIS PRIMARY PITCH. Obviously if you throw a sinker as your primary pitch (when you haven’t before) then your GB% will increase. Not rocket science.
    4) Lastly, when a pitcher posts an ERA of 3.49 after posting ERA’s north of 5.00 in 3 of his last 4 full seasons, it gives rise to the question, was he lucky? Looking at his FIP of 3.27, I’d conclude that no, he wasn’t lucky. In fact his FIP indicates he pitched slightly better than his ERA would show.

    Now, given all this, you’d have to assume that Pinero, as a #3 or #4 starter, putting up a 3.75 or so ERA (regressing slightly) then that is a fair return on investment.

  93. Strikethree, it wasn’t luck that Pinero had that ERA and posted the numbers he did.
    1) The “tick lower” on his average fastball was due to the fact that he started using a sinker as his primary pitch and thus he had no need to throw a 4-seamer.
    2) Walk rates are walk rates. If he improved his control, then fine and dandy. If that was a result of Dave Duncan, then fine and dandy. At the very least if he regresses to his career average of 2.56 BB/9 then that isn’t bad at all.
    3) GB%. Once again, DUE TO THE SINKER THAT HE INCORPORATED AS HIS PRIMARY PITCH. Obviously if you throw a sinker as your primary pitch (when you haven’t before) then your GB% will increase. Not rocket science.
    4) Lastly, when a pitcher posts an ERA of 3.49 after posting ERA’s north of 5.00 in 3 of his last 4 full seasons, it gives rise to the question, was he lucky? Looking at his FIP of 3.27, I’d conclude that no, he wasn’t lucky. In fact his FIP indicates he pitched slightly better than his ERA would show.

    Now, given all this, you’d have to assume that Pinero, as a #3 or #4 starter, putting up a 3.75 or so ERA (regressing slightly) then that is a fair return on investment.

  94. strikethree 5 years ago

    He used a two-seamer before going to the Cardinals.

    Here’s a very similar example: Kyle Lohse
    The same Duncan magic was used on him during the 2008 season and he posted a career year. Except, it only lasted for that year. He then posted a 4.55 FIP for 2009.

    FIP, although less volatile than ERA, can also be affected by luck. (Usually by low HR rates, walk rates, BABIP, etc) Ted Lilly, for example, is not a 3.65 FIP type pitcher.

    I would like to see statistical research on Dave Duncan’s tenure. Is he the reason behind Pineiro’s success? Do these pitchers continue to achieve success without Duncan? Do we, the fans, only look at the successes and just ignore pitchers who didn’t improve under Duncan? I mean, it’s not like every Cardinal pitcher was a Cy Young Candidate. Plus, there were teams who out-pitched the Cardinals in terms of FIP. Does that mean they have better coaches?

    In fact from 2006-2008, the Cardinals had one of the worst FIP team numbers. Is that Duncan’s fault too?

    “1) The “tick lower” on his average fastball was due to the fact that he started using a sinker as his primary pitch and thus he had no need to throw a 4-seamer.”

    His fastball mph has been decreasing since 2003. Again, he already had a two seamer. Plus, his slower speed could be due to fatigue instead of a better sinker. (The guy hasn’t thrown 200 IP since 03)

  95. strikethree 5 years ago

    He used a two-seamer before going to the Cardinals.

    Here’s a very similar example: Kyle Lohse
    The same Duncan magic was used on him during the 2008 season and he posted a career year. Except, it only lasted for that year. He then posted a 4.55 FIP for 2009.

    FIP, although less volatile than ERA, can also be affected by luck. (Usually by low HR rates, walk rates, BABIP, etc) Ted Lilly, for example, is not a 3.65 FIP type pitcher.

    I would like to see statistical research on Dave Duncan’s tenure. Is he the reason behind Pineiro’s success? Do these pitchers continue to achieve success without Duncan? Do we, the fans, only look at the successes and just ignore pitchers who didn’t improve under Duncan? I mean, it’s not like every Cardinal pitcher was a Cy Young Candidate. Plus, there were teams who out-pitched the Cardinals in terms of FIP. Does that mean they have better coaches?

    In fact from 2006-2008, the Cardinals had one of the worst FIP team numbers. Is that Duncan’s fault too?

    “1) The “tick lower” on his average fastball was due to the fact that he started using a sinker as his primary pitch and thus he had no need to throw a 4-seamer.”

    His fastball mph has been decreasing since 2003. Again, he already had a two seamer. Plus, his slower speed could be due to fatigue instead of a better sinker. (The guy hasn’t thrown 200 IP since 03)

  96. strikethree 5 years ago

    I replied to the Duncan thing in a post above…

    They can save their money for next year since there are a lot of better options next year. How about using that money to get a better medical staff?I’m not against signing Pineiro but I do think it would have been better to have tried for Chapman instead.If Minaya didn’t overpay for Bay, they might have been able to sign both Pineiro and Chapman.

  97. Their inconsistencies are world’s apart though. Perez’s inconsistencies are with pitching as a whole–Pineiro’s has more to do with how hittable he is.

    If the Mets were offering Pineiro a three-year, $30 million contract, I would agree–but $15 million over two years isn’t terrible.

  98. As a Mets fan, I no longer hope for players “we can count on,” but rather, the player that is the lesser of the evils.

  99. Why are people obsessed with the term “innings eater” when it comes to mediocre or bad pitchers? It’s like calling a fat girl, “nice.” See them for what they are — fat (in regard to fat girls) or a bad pitcher (in regards to Marquis).

  100. I thought Garland only wanted to play on the West Coast. I’d rather have Garland if he was interested in signing with an East Coast team.

  101. It’s one thing not to be a dominant pitcher (both Marquis and Pineiro), but it’s another thing to have worse than league average control (just Marquis this time).

  102. Yeah, I guess we read the same earlier report on Garland. I’m all for signing Garland.

  103. The league average for BB/9 is around 3.30–Marquis owns a career 3.50 BB/9.

  104. “If Pineiro is going through a dead arm period or his stuff just isn’t as sharp for whatever reason he is left no way to get himself out of a jam.”

    Well, just to counter your hypothetical, how about if Marquis is going through a “dead arm period”–he won’t be able to rely on ANYTHING to get out of a jam.

  105. “Marquis gets the occasional strikeout, Pineiro really doesn’t.”

    You do realize Marquis only had 10 more K’s than Pineiro last season, right?

    In addition, check out their career K/9’s:

    Piniero’s career: 5.58 K/9
    Marquis’ career: 5.25 K/9

    So not only does Marquis NOT possess this strikeout capability you claim he has, but he has actually been less dominant than Pineiro in his career.

  106. “Also Marquis had more strikeouts by 10 while Pineiro was having a career year and Marquis wasn’t.”

    Actually, Marquis WAS having a career year. In the first half of 2009, Marquis posted a 3.65 ERA and 1.30 WHIP–which would together be his best all-time ERA/WHIP for a season. He, of course, fell off in the second half since those batters he continued to walk just started crossing home plate more often.

    “I don’t believe Pineiro will repeat those numbers but Marquis actually will because that is what he does.”

    I agree that Pineiro might not post a 3.49 ERA/1.14 WHIP in 2010, but limiting walks and giving up a hit per IP aren’t fluke stats. If he gave up LESS than a hit per IP and started striking out tons of batters, then you may have a more solid point.

    The reason why Marquis is not a good pitcher is that since he has poor control and is not dominant, he can become very hittable–which is why he led the league in ER (130) in 2006.

    Essentially, the less runners on base, the less runs you can give up. Pineiro’s main asset is his control–something that Marquis simply does not possess–and that is what contributes to his success.

  107. The season you’re referring to was his first full-season as a starting pitcher in the majors. Prior to 2004, Marquis had just logged an average of 74.6 IP per season as a starter from 2001-2003. However, it was all downhill from 2004.

    In regards to the usage of “career year,” I tend you use that term when a player builds towards something. For instance, if a hitter hits 20, 25, 30, 35, and then 50 HR–the year he hits 50 HR would be a career year. If a player’s “career year” is their first full-season, that implies a fluke season (since he hasn’t come close to touching a 3.71 ERA since)–or their “best year.”

  108. The season you’re referring to was his first full-season as a starting pitcher in the majors. Prior to 2004, Marquis had just logged an average of 74.6 IP per season as a starter from 2001-2003. However, it was all downhill from 2004.

    In regards to the usage of “career year,” I tend you use that term when a player builds towards something. For instance, if a hitter hits 20, 25, 30, 35, and then 50 HR–the year he hits 50 HR would be a career year. If a player’s “career year” is their first full-season, that implies a fluke season (since he hasn’t come close to touching a 3.71 ERA since)–or their “best year.”

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