Pitchers on the move

Jason Schmidt has been offered $45 million over three years to join the Cubs.  If that offer has been leaked already, $60M/4 seems within the realm of possibility.  Strangely, Schmidt has already said he's not interested in the East Coast--you'd think he'd wait until Cashman made an offer and drove up his price before saying no.  Once Schmidt signs, it'll be fun to watch Scott Boras conduct the sure-to-be-insane bidding for Barry Zito.

Some team (to be announced tonight) won the bidding for Kei Igawa for $25 million.  Hanshin has accepted.  That's the second largest posting fee ever--somebody must think Igawa is pretty good, definitely on the high side of the typical #3/#4 projection he's gotten.  I'm guessing it's not the Cubs, or we wouldn't be hearing so much about the other pitchers they're after.  That leaves plenty of other possibilities, though.

The Baltimore Orioles are continuing their quest to build the most expensive bullpen of all time: Chad Bradford is close to a three-year deal with them.  Anybody think it's a little odd that the O's traded Chris Britton for a reclamation project and are now probably spending about $8M a year for Bradford and Danys Baez?  (Odd?  Yes.  In character? Absolutely.)

And, this just in: the O's are also adding Scott Williamson.  He's cheap--only $900K for the year.  Oddly enough, he could be the best of their new additions.  I'm a little surprised nobody else was willing to go higher for him on a one-year deal.

Many of you have emailed me about a possible Angels-White Sox trade involving Ervin Santana and Chone Figgins for Freddy Garcia and Joe Crede.   As Rotoworld points out, this could be a recycled rumor; regardless, Kenny Williams says no.  And there's no way Bill Stoneman deals Santana for Garcia without getting a lot more in return.  Five years of a good pitcher under the team's control for one year of Garcia?  Right.

By Jeff Sackmann

Comments

[Kramerica Industries]

Red Sox are close to signing Lugo

[Kramerica Industries]

Kennedy to the cardinals

[Kramerica Industries]

Orioles close to re-signing Millar

[desturbd1]

Haha, the two Boston papers are saying completely different things. The Globe's Gordon Edes said today that Boston's close to signing Lugo. And the Herald's Michael Silverman reports that Boston's fallen behind both the Mets and the Dodgers. Edes' version sounds a bit more believable...but I'm not terribly confident in either report.

http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=169391&srvc=sports
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/28/nl_teams_warm_up_to_idea_of_a_ramrez_deal/

[brianc829]

according to this, the cards just signed kennedy along with marrero, kip wells and gary bennett
http://netmail.verizon.net/webmail/servlet/HttpNimletDriver?nimlet=ManageEmailDetailNimlet&requestAction=showEmail&site=C&folderName=INBOX&ssorequest=ssorequest&messageID=1488

[Kramerica Industries]

desturbd1 Buster Olney on Weei said that they are close to Lugo as well.

[allabouthephils]

I just don't see it... I don't understand what Chicago is trying to do this year... Compete with Baltimore for spending the most money in baseball for a 2nd or 3rd place team? I will get killed for that comment, I know...Schmidt at 15MM a year ??? For a guy who has been shaky with his velocity the last few years and has had health problems, this has just as much potential to blow up as the Soriano deal.....Good luck in 2 years Chicago ... It definately has the possibility to get ugly.....

[zubes007]

Stoneman is an idiot (5 years for Sarge Jr!?!?!?!?), so I wouldn't put it past him...he is one of these idiots who loves "veterans."

[Teetz]

allaboutphils.....the Orioles are in the same division as the BoSox and Yankees. The NL Central was won last year with 83 wins. The Cubs are certainly improving themselves enough to compete for the playoffs in the National League.

[royler]

I'd rather the Cubs go get Lilly for about $10mm and maybe someone like Westbrook/Lee, rather than spending $15mm on Schmidt and then filling in the #4 starter with some bum.

[nrmax88]

the cubs arent going to the playoffs lol 3rb place at best

[Teetz]

Getting Westbrook/Lee would not be easy. We'd have to give up quite a bit. If the Cubs want to go out and spend to get Schmidt (who I think is the best starter out there), then I am all for it. I have no problem going with a project in the 5 hole if we got Zambrano/Schmidt/Hill/Prior rounding out the top of the rotation. Schmidt is a workhorse who has made at least 29 starts the last 5 seasons.

[Teetz]

"lol"

-nrmax88

Haha...What a jagoff.

[MetallicRageX]

Listen, I am tired of this condescending tone that you keep giving the Orioles.

The Orioles had the 2nd worst bullpen in the Majors last season. These moves gives them one of the best in the Majors. If you knew ANYTHING about Britton you would know that the guy has a fairly flat fastball, conditioning problem and only one offspeed pitch that he can't even throw for strikes. I watched him last year, YOU DIDN'T. This enables the Orioles to go into the winter meetings not having to worry about their bullpen, and enabling them to focus on picking up a Left Fielder or First Base.

[allabouthephils]

nrmax I agree with and may be the only one to do so... I just see there glaring weaknesses still.

Pitching and on base percentage... Neither have been addressed and as long as those two critical areas remain unaddressed, the Cubs will fail to win the NL Central...

[royler]

Teetz---you'd really plug Prior into the #4 spot and pray he doesn't break down? Hendry's gotta have some balls if he does that. I wouldn't mind doing that as Prior being the #5 guy, but I think they need at least TWO (maybe even 3 more starters). I'm hoping with the surplus of people in the 'pen (particularly lefties), maybe the Cubs can pry someone away from the Tribe.

[davearm]

"the cubs arent going to the playoffs lol 3rb place at best"

... as currently constructed, probably so.

But the offseason's far from over, the money's far from gone, and the trade chips are far from spent.

[palehose35]

Garcia for Santana is one-sided.
But so is Crede for Figgins, only in the other direction.

The first is more one-sided than the latter, however, so maybe the White Sox could throw in someone like Charles Haeger or Lance Broadway...young pitching that might be ready to step up if Garcia leaves next year.

I'm hoping if that got done, the White Sox could pull off a deal with Cinci involving Vazquez and Freel.

All just speculation, though. I get the feeling by reading what KW is saying this offseason, he's getting frustrated with the asking price in trades/free agency. Still, I'd rather see him hold out than offer a ridiculous deal that's bad the team just to appease anxious fans...cough cough cubs.

[Teetz]

4 spot...5 spot....whats the difference? If he makes it out of ST healthy, he's certainly #3 even. Anyways, they make the same amount of starts in the end. If we get Schmidt, I'm sure we can get at least league average from the 4-5 spots with a combo of Prior, Miller, Marmol, Mateo, and any low level free agent reclamation project for Rothschild.

That top end would be lethal and a force in the playoffs if they make it. If Hendry can get Westbrook for peanuts than I'd go that route but I doubt he can with the premium on pitching this offseason.

Sidenote: The Cubs haven't shown their cards on the projected budget Hendry is working with. He very well could get Schmidt and a Gil Meche/Lilly/Padilla type.

[wagunk27]

I completely agree Teetz...whats so wrong with penciling in Prior at #4.. its #4 for a reason..in yrs past the Cubs have relied on him much more and in signing Schmidt they would get themselves out from under the "hold our breath" rock with the pitching staff.

[royler]

IMO, the problem with penciling Prior in as 4 is that it means that you have another unproven guy behind him, So 40% of your rotation is a question mark, now. With Prior/Marshall/Miller/Oompa Loompas as you #5, at least you can lean on 4 dependable starters.

[Teetz]

Thats a good point, but I still think that stacking a lot of pitchers (veterans and young guys) for the 4-5 spot....I still think you're likely to get, at the very least, league average from the bottom end of the rotation.

[davearm]

The Cubs are likely to acquire 2 more solid starting pitchers this winter, giving them 7 options heading into spring training -- with Miller and Prior being #s 6 and 7, and someone like Cotts or Marshall or Guzman the provisional #5.

[Teetz]

The 2006 NL average for all pitchers was

4.56 ERA, 1.42 WHIP, 3.43 BB/9, 6.60 K/9, 1.12 HR/9

So adjust for what the average for #4-#5 pitchers would be....

You figure you'd be able to get those numbers out of 64 starts from a combo of Mark Prior, Wade Miller, Carlos Marmol, Juan Mateo, and say a Miguel Batista

[Teetz]

....because you know you'd be able to get a lot better than that from Zambrano/Schmidt/Hill

[nrmax88]

teetz why do u get so mad because i think the cubs are still far from a playoff team

[allabouthephils]

"The Cubs are certainly improving themselves enough to compete for the playoffs in the National League."
First, I will say it again... Pitching gets you to the playoffs... Timely hitting WITH runners on base and great pitching wins in the postseason. The Cubs have no people getting on and have HORRIBLE pitching... not bad pitching...not ok pitching... not mediocre pitching... HORRIBLE pitching... HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE.... Soriano and DeRosa and hell even Manny do not solve the problems this club has... They need pitching and baserunners... right now they have neither... Here's a clue, anytime you can make a case that the Devil Rays and Marlins have better pitching than your club, that's a bad sign...

Now the Orioles fan out there,

"The Orioles had the 2nd worst bullpen in the Majors last season. These moves gives them one of the best in the Majors."
They had the 2nd worst bullpen in the majors after letting BJ Ryan walk and trading Jorge Julio...
Who did they get to replace them this year?
Danys Baez, Jamie Walker, Scott Williamson and possibly Chad Bradford...

Like I said, the most expensive bullpen to finish 4th in a division...I guess it's something to be proud of...

[nrmax88]

I would sure be proud, just like i would be proud if soriano, ramirez, and lee all go for 30 and 100, and WE STILL FINISH 15 GAMES OUT OF THE PLAYOFFS! HAAA

[Teetz]

What an ignorant post....you debate with zero backing.

Soriano, Derosa, Aramis all posted OBP's over .350 last season. Barrett posted .368. Derrek Lee will get over .400. Murton posted .370.

If we get Schmidt and another pitcher, then you can't argue that our starting rotation is "HORRIBLE".

You're like a little kid who doesn't get what he wants so he has to find every flaw in it. Just because the Phils are going to be "HORRIBLE" next year....don't take it out on the Cubs.

[allabouthephils]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo TEETZ...

It is a fact that the CUBS had the worst OBP in baseball last year.... Throw all the numbers you want at me, the Cubs as a team had the worst OBP in baseball last year... Soriano does not solve that, neither does DeRosa and Manny doesn't hurt it but really doesnt help either...

As for Schmidt, well if you think that will solve this organizations problems, I will talk to you next October...

The Phils are not going to be horrible next year... They weren't last year or the year before or the year before... They missed the playoffs but at least they make it interesting every year... We arent out of it by June ( like the Cubs)...

[cubz23]

allaboutthephils, it was actually the cubs starting rotation that was bad last year - their bullpen was 5th in the NL (4.04 era).

Obviusly they need to improve the starting staff and until they do it is all just talk but it something Hendry has the flexiblity to do, so it is not hard to imagine at least an average starting rotation next year.

[P-Wubbs]

allabouthephils...

The Orioles replaced BJ Ryan completely with the emergence of Chris Ray as a formidable closer and Jamie Walker as the main left hander in the pen. Jorge Julio would've inflated the ERA even more, so dealing him for anything lowered the bullpen ERA.

The earlier comment about Chris Britton by MetallicRageX "If you knew ANYTHING about Britton you would know that the guy has a fairly flat fastball, conditioning problem and only one offspeed pitch that he can't even throw for strikes." is pretty true. Once he lost his curveball, he was no where near capable of surviving in the bigs.

[allabouthephils]

So continue to defend your Cubs... They are not going to the playoffs this year or next... They don't have the pitching....

Ignorant post...

If you find honesty to be ignorant then sure... If you want to believe that the Cubs are a championship team or even a playoff team, then you have some serious blinders on...

[nrmax88]

Yea the phils arent horribl at all, as a met fan thats the one team im seriously worried about competing with. If any team signs shcmidt and another good pitcher then their pitching wont be horrible. IF. I said this yesterday.

If the cubs starting pitching does amazing, and their bullpen does, and their injury plagued team stays healthy, and they get career years from like 5 or 6 or 7 guys, then the cubs will win the World Series.... But....
If the queen had balls she would be the king

[Teetz]

Yeah good solid informative post. The Cubs had the worst OBP last year....they also often had Neifi Perez, Ronny Cedeno, Juan Pierre, John Mabry, Phil Nevin...garnering 1,858 at bats at very low OBP level. Not to mention we missed Derrek Lee nearly the whole season.

Now tell me how replacing those starters with Mark Derosa, Alfonso Soriano, and Derrek Lee doesn't help our OBP? The combined OBP of these three players is at least 60-80 points higher than the scrubs they are replacing.

[allabouthephils]

This post sounds like you're defending a teams' decision to have the 2nd worst pen' in the bigs last year... Are you kidding me?

"The Orioles replaced BJ Ryan completely with the emergence of Chris Ray as a formidable closer and Jamie Walker as the main left hander in the pen. Jorge Julio would've inflated the ERA even more, so dealing him for anything lowered the bullpen ERA.

The earlier comment about Chris Britton by MetallicRageX "If you knew ANYTHING about Britton you would know that the guy has a fairly flat fastball, conditioning problem and only one offspeed pitch that he can't even throw for strikes." is pretty true. Once he lost his curveball, he was no where near capable of surviving in the bigs."

By the way,,,

Great post nrmax .... couldnt have said it any better myself...

[nrmax88]

Cubs arent a playoff team, it is that simple, i say 82-80. The truth hurts

[allabouthephils]

You actually think DeRosa, D-Lee and mister 160 strikeouts or 1/4 of his atbats last year is going to improve that... Keep smokin my friend.

[Teetz]

What happens when two idiots get together? Probably what we all get to read right here with nrmax88 and allaboutphils.

"You guys are HORRIBLE....what? why are they horrible? They just ARE! They were horrible last year and replacing horrible players with players that are much better doesn't change that fact that you guys will be horrible forever!"

"Yeah what a bad signing, I'm glad they signed that really good player so that we don't have to spend money on that really good player" aka...."pfftt I don't care...I didn't want to play with that toy anyways"

You guys no longer need to post, I summed up your posts for the last few weeks....

[bsox21]

do cubs fans really still think wade miller is anything more than a truck driver?

[Teetz]

"You actually think DeRosa, D-Lee and mister 160 strikeouts or 1/4 of his atbats last year is going to improve that"

Replacing Juan Pierre, Ronny Cedeno, and John Mabry/Walker/Nevin.....any halfway knowledgable baseball person will say....well of course....it would actually improve it a whole lot.

[cubz23]

I don't disagree on Wade Miller, not to sure what Hendry sees in him. His fastball did not even get to 88 late last year. Hoping to catch one good year from him I suppose.

[pinetarhand]

The Cubs played without D. Lee last year. John Mabry filled in at 1st a lot along with Phil Nevin. You can't tell me the OBP won't improve from Lee to them 2. They had Cedeno & Neife starting on a regular basis (which won't happen) as well as Pierre (who gets replaced by Soriano's OBP). I'd say that their OBP isn't going to be league best, but it's certainly going to be a lot better than last year

[nrmax88]

Actually i never said any of that stuff. The mets had no need for soriano, nor was i expecting them to go after him. I never once critiziced the Sori deal. I never said u would be horrible forever. The funny thing is to everyone else on the post, you look like a desperate cubs fan who wants to win so bad that he has created his own little fantasy MLB world, where the cubs are rulers of all

[pinetarhand]

The pitching is still a concern, but the Cubs are talked about with every FA & trade possibility out there. They will land better pitching.

[pinetarhand]

Schmidt posted a 3.59 ERA last year so I don't see where we'll be saying by next Ocotober how terrible he is. How is 3.59 & 213 innings so bad that it is a terrible deal? You can't tell me that a pitcher of that calliber isn't worth more than Ted "I'll never throw 200 innings" Lilly.

[nrmax88]

Yes, but they will NOT be a playoff team in 07, thats all im saying. Teetz doesnt have to have a little temper tantrum about it because objective fans think that they wont make the playoffs. It simply isnt going to happen.

"The cubs rule the cubs rule!!! We r the best team ever!! We have soriano and derosa to lead the way Yipppy!! The Cubs r the Best!!! I love Hendry!!! All we have to do is sign zito and schmidt and trade for santana and Halladay and we will be the best team ever!!!!!"

Teetz doggg no need for u to post anymore i jus summed up all your posts from the past couple of years.

[pinetarhand]

Well, nrmax88, we'll just have to disagree on this. In a division where 83 wins gets you the pennant, I don't see where the new Cubs aren't a possibility.

[nrmax88]

Because schmidt is 34 and shown signs of physically breaking down. Hmm a pitcher who is on a physical declien and shown more and more tendencies of getting injured. I guess thats just the Cubbie style, what can i say. Cubs fans are so filled with like 100 years of anger its absolutely hilarious. I love pushing those buttons until the cubbie fans snap on me. It is the best. Dont get me wrong jason schmidt can still ball but dont be surprised if u sign him to big deal and he gets hurt and is inneffective, or is horrible for the last 2 years of the deal.

[Teetz]

It's funny that you guys claim that all Cubs fans are writing it in stone that we're winning the championship next season just because we got Soriano/Derosa/Schmidt....etc.

Me and most Cubs fans on this site have never claimed that. We say these are great moves they have made and we're going to compete for the playoffs....you know, what smart baseball people say. You know what dumb baseball people say?...."No way they're making the playoffs....3rd place team..lol.lol..lol"

[Teetz]

Hey anytime you want to post any statistical information to back up your statements....or even any back up to your statements, it'd be fine by me.

[nrmax88]

why is that a thing dumb baseball people say? Somebody has to finish in 3rd place. I mean honestly do u think all good baseball people say every bad team is going to compete. Iguess your right teetz. The cubs still suck haha LOLOLOLOL. You can make fun of me and allaboutthephils all u want, but dont hate because the mets and phillies are still a whole shit load better then da witttle cubbie wubbies!!

[pinetarhand]

I'm not angry at all, just arguing my point. Lilly has broken down every year, while Schmidt has not broken down every year. I'm sure he'll decline, and he may even get injured for half the contract, but that's the nature of FA. You're signing old players & you never know how much gas is in the tank. I'd still take him at 34 than Lilly at 31, but that's just me. 3 yr deal is much better than the 5 yr deal I heard of.

[nrmax88]

i give the cubs as much of a chance making the playoffs as the royals. Not saying they arent a better team then the royals, but thats the same chance they have of playoffs

[allabouthephils]

Man this is getting stupid... Look at the Cubs team from top to bottom.

Lets compare the Cubs to the Cardinals for the division as it stands now...

1b Cards
2b Cards
SS Cards
3b Cubs ( but not if Rolen is healthy due to the gold glove he carries with him over there)
Catcher Cards
Left Field Cubs
Center Tie ( Edmonds best center fielder in baseball still)
Right Cards
Starting Pitching Cards
Bullpen Cards

Good luck... that's an objective look at it...

[tyler]

when is the winner of the igawa bid going to be announced?

we all know the yanks have the money to take a risk on this guy... plus, if he ever turns out to be better than matsusaka, it will make the sox look incredably bad

[Teetz]

That's why you're not very smart nrmax88

Go back to the chat rooms and lol your life away

[nrmax88]

pinetar i dont have a problem with u or the cubs, im just trying to piss of teetz, and doing a dam good job. If a cub fan is lookin at the orioles or something, and thinking mann they suck, sure they made some moves but theyyre still not going to make the playoffs. Well thats how most non cub fans r looking at the cubs right now

[pinetarhand]

"i give the cubs as much of a chance making the playoffs as the royals. Not saying they arent a better team then the royals, but thats the same chance they have of playoffs"

Knowing that the Royals division is packed with playoff contenders, I'd have to say you're flat wrong. Not being an ass, but the NL Central does not compare to the AL Central in how good the teams are.

[nrmax88]

How come im not smart, because i dont think the cubs will make the playoffs. Some people would say u arent very smart because u think they will make it, simply because your biased and uncapable of looking at your team objectively

[Teetz]

Haha....to compare teams from position to position like that is the dumbest possible way to compare teams.

Are you really that mad about the Phillies big splash signing Adam Eaton, that you have to try to trash every good signing another team makes?

[nrmax88]

Im not trying to compare divisions. Im just saying that ... your right, i give the royals about a hmmm 0 percent chance to make the postseason. I give the cubs about a 5-10 percent chance.

[pinetarhand]

I see nrmaxx. Cubs have to prove themselves first. But honestly, so do the Phils. They have a lot of upside & talent but haven't made it anywhere yet in a much stronger division.

[Teetz]

Again, I, nor do most Cub fans, on this site have said...."The Cubs will make the playoffs"....it would be idiotic to state, in NOVEMBER, that any team is making the playoffs.

It is equally idiotic to state that the Cubs, even though they are obviously improved, will not even compete for the playoffs

[pinetarhand]

5-10% chance? better than the Tigers had before last year I guess. LOL.

[allabouthephils]

Compare the Phils pitching staff to the Cubs laugh'....

To say that's a dumb way to compare teams is your opinion... I like doing that because it objectively breaks down each position for each team...

[nrmax88]

Teets, jesus help this kid. Nobody is saying the cubs arent building the team the right way. I have said they suck, sure, but that is mostly to piss u off. The cubs can easily be a powerhouse in 08 or 09. I just seriously wouldnt count on it in 07. You cant just take the worst team in the league and make the awesome in one offseason. I highly doubt they will be anywehre near as succesful as u r hoping for in 07. Im not saying they arent buiding a good team. When and if the cubs resign Carlos Zambrano,, then i will tell u whats up for 08

[allabouthephils]

I bet you guys thought the Cubs would make the playoffs last year too didn't ya...

[tyler]

Again, I, nor do most Cub fans, on this site have said...."The Cubs will make the playoffs"....it would be idiotic to state, in NOVEMBER, that any team is making the playoffs.

i respond to that by saying the mets are making the playoffs

[nrmax88]

Yeah pinetar, like u just said. The AL central is the best divisio in baseball, the nl central, probably the worst

[allabouthephils]

You forgot one thing nrmax...

Unless the Cubs are going to continue to spend like the Yankees... They are going to top out before Zambrano becomes a free agent...

Just imagine what he could command in this market.... He would be dumb not to test the market...

[nrmax88]

Tyler, i second that notion hahaaaaa, i guess that makes us idiots

[pinetarhand]

What is the Cardinal's pitching staff after Carpenter & Reyes for this next year?

Hamels & Myers would be equal or a little less than Zambrano & Schmidt. Did you see Hill pitch at the end of the season last year? He compared to Hamels during his last 10 or so starts. If the Cubs can go get Schmidt & a sericeable #3 or #4, I'd have to like the Cubs staff better.

[nrmax88]

true tht phils

[pinetarhand]

I don't think anyone predicted the Cubs would make the playoffs last year. Just not enough talent & relying too much the 3 headed injury moster of Prior/Wood/Miller

[allabouthephils]

IF IF IF ...

Break it down for me

Hamels
Myers
Lieber
Moyer
Eaton

Zambrano
Hill
Miller
Prior
???

Still want the Cubs?

[nrmax88]

IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF IF THATS ALL THE DAM CUB FANS KEEP SAYING. IF WE DO THIS IF WE GET LEE IF WE TRADE FOR OSWALT IF WE GET ZITO IF WE GET SCHMIDT BLA BLA BLA IF FI IF

IF THE QUEEN HAD BALL SHED BE KING!!
HOW MANY TIMES MUST THIS BE SAID.

"If the Cubs can go get Schmidt & a sericeable #3 or #4I'd have to like the Cubs staff better."

Ok.... I bet if the Phils got schmidt and traded for westbvrook or lee then u would rather have their rotation more. If doesnt mean jack shit

[ptk420biatch]

allaboutthephils.....are you really a phillies fan and bashing the cubs and everything they have done and are trying to do?

[pinetarhand]

Yet again, the Cubs have to get 2 more starters. I never made any promises, just hypotheticals according to what I've heard about the payroll & what they're trying to do. If it makes you feel any better, I still hate Hendry. Anyone could do a "good" job at GM with the kind of money he has at his disoposal right now.

[Dave]

phils,

your analysis of the cards/vs cubs lineup seems to be a bit skewed...

RF...Soriano against Encarnacion? Seriously, you think Encarnacion is better than Soriano? Or if you still think Soriano is a CF, then Edmaonds is still better in CF? Perhaps with defense, but the VORP doesn't support your argument.

Also, Molina against Barrett is a difficult call. Molina is arguably one of the best defensive catchers, but arguably one of the worst offensive ones. They are mirror opposites. I'd rather have Barrett.

There's absolutely no way I take Rolen over ARam. I think Rolen is a competitor, and have a lot of respect for him, but he's not the offensive threat. Once again, the VORP doesn't support your argument.

It's pretty difficult to insult the Cub bullpen. They performed extremely well last year, with a ton of innings pitched. Their sample size is enormous compared to other teams.

[baseballfan06]

I dont really quite understand why everyone is doggin the Cubs. I'm a White Som fan, so believe me, i don't want to see this team win, but how can you deny that this team has improved drastically. First of all, Lee will be healthy next year. Isnt he an improvement over John Mabry? Soriano is replacing pitiful Juan Pierre. What did people say the Cubs lacked all last year? Power and OBP. I'm almost positive that Lee and Soriano GREATLY improve those two catagories. Also, while the DeRosa signing might not be as significant, Cubs fans still dont have to go through the horror of watching Cedeno man 2B. If Hendry brings in 2 SP such as Schmidt, Westbrook, Meche, Padilla, Lilly, then there isnt another pitching staff in the NL that you could really compare to the Cubs. Zambrano, Schmidt, Westbrook, Hill, and which ever of Prior or Miller stays healthy. That rotation is stacked top to bottom. Again, not a Cubs fan but people just hate on this team for no reason. You cant just say a team isnt going to win just because. You have to have some reason. The Cubs offense is already hugely improved and from what i understand, their rotation will be also. With the rotation that they are supposed to go out and get and that lineup with Soriano, Lee, Aramis, Barrett, and company, how could they not compete in that pathetic NL Central.

[allabouthephils]

If we brought Cy Young and Walter Johnson back from the dead and summoned Lou Gehrig to play first and Babe Ruth to play right and brought in Willie Mays to teach Alfonso Soriano how to catch the ball and brought in Nolan Ryan to teach Kerry " toothpick " Wood how not to snap every time he looks at a baseball then you might win the wildcard... LOL

[nrmax88]

phils exactly. If isnt shit. If the mets sign zito, schmidt, trade maine for santana, put el duque in the bullpen, trade heilman for peavy, trade green for Vlad guererro, and trade bannister for Carpenter, and pedro makes a miraculous recovery, then the mets have the best team ever assembled. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it

[pinetarhand]

NRmaxx, of course it's IFS, its the joy of the offseason. I've heard that they Cubs are in the running for Schmidt, not the Phils. I don't like Moyer or Lieber at all. Old & washed up. I would put Big Z & Hill up against Myers & Hamels anyday. Eaton put the Phils ahead for now, but stay tuned.

[GoBoSox420]

"

Man this is getting stupid... Look at the Cubs team from top to bottom.

Lets compare the Cubs to the Cardinals for the division as it stands now...

1b Cards
2b Cards
SS Cards
3b Cubs ( but not if Rolen is healthy due to the gold glove he carries with him over there)
Catcher Cards
Left Field Cubs
Center Tie ( Edmonds best center fielder in baseball still)
Right Cards
Starting Pitching Cards
Bullpen Cards

Good luck... that's an objective look at it...
"

Are you serious?

You'd take Scott Rolen over Aramis Ramirez?

Soriano or Edmonds? And you chose Edmonds and even called him the best CF in baseball.

Who is in the cards bullpen? The cubs actually have a decent bullpen.

Cubs are still looking for pitchers, so yes as of now the cards are better.

Objective? You either have it in for the cubs or are an idiot

[Teetz]

Well people are just reminding you morons that the offseason is far from over and before you start crying about how bad the Cubs are, you might want to wait and see the finished product. I know for one thing, I was shedding a tear when Adam Eaton was taken off the market.

[Dave]

Rich Hill vs. Cole Hamels last 10 starts of last season.

Rich Hill, hands down. Hamels was better over the entire year, but definitely faded like the youth down the stretch. I refer you to the game he pitched against the Cubs. Hope you remember it.

[pinetarhand]

Difference is NRmaxx that your hypotheticals are not rumored, being that this is a rumor site, why not talk about the rumors that are being posted. IF is the point of this website isn't it?

[Teetz]

And yes....it would be idiotic to say the Mets are a shoe-in for the 2007 playoffs in NOVEMBER of 2006.

[allabouthephils]

More 'ifs' from baseballfan.....

We are not saying the Cubs have not improved... We are saying they are not a playoff caliber team this year no matter what they do.... You can't improve this team that much in one offseason

[pinetarhand]

I think Nolan Ryan could outpitch Moyer & Lieber right now. LOL BRING HIM BACK!!!

[nrmax88]

Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics. I dont have to have a reason dor anything baseball fan. I dont think the cubs are a playoff team. I dont need to justify that. They have so many holes and the game isnt played on paper, or the yankees would win the WS every single year.

[pinetarhand]

"We are not saying the Cubs have not improved... We are saying they are not a playoff caliber team this year no matter what they do.... You can't improve this team that much in one offseason"

You can when everyone on the team was either injured or underperformed last year. Worst to First...wasn't it the Braves that did that? It can happen, and it has happened.

[Teetz]

"We are saying they are not a playoff caliber team this year no matter what they do.... "

I think that pretty much sums it all up for you Phils.....truly the most mind numbing post of the day

[ptk420biatch]

Its funny the phillies fan and the mets fan have to gang up to talk shit about the cubs. The cubs. LMAO.

And they basically keep saying the same thing over and over. If IF IF IF, if the phillies made it in the playoff's last year they might have won the world series. If the mets could play against the cards like the cubs play against the cards they might have won the world series.

[allabouthephils]

"Are you serious?

You'd take Scott Rolen over Aramis Ramirez?

Soriano or Edmonds? And you chose Edmonds and even called him the best CF in baseball.

Who is in the cards bullpen? The cubs actually have a decent bullpen.

Cubs are still looking for pitchers, so yes as of now the cards are better.

Objective? You either have it in for the cubs or are an idiot"

Defensively... Edmonds is the best in baseball..
Rolen is vastly superior to Ramirez defensively and if he's healthy compareable offensively..

The bullpen ??? DID YOU WATCH THE PLAYOFFS LAST YEAR... I cant believe I responded to that...

[pinetarhand]

No, but the Yankees do make the playoff every year & isn't that what we're arguing about here?

[Teetz]

"Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics."

Awwwwww isn't that cute? You guys gonna go rollerblading together later?

[Dave]

max,

you said they were a playoff team when you conceded they could win 82 games next year.

[nrmax88]

OK phils i guess we should just give up we get more and more people arguing against us every minute, but like he just said. I am in no way saying the cubs arent making good strides and signing core players. They arent a playoff team in my opinion in 07

[Teetz]

"Defensively... Edmonds is the best in baseball.."

No he's not....not even close really.

[pinetarhand]

Come on Phils, the Cardinals played over their head, the Tigers (a vastly superior team) went to shit at the wrong time, The Mets' pitching staff had left town. You can't take a sample like that & say it's the way it's going to be for the entire season, especially since Wainright is going to starting rotation.

[nrmax88]

um yeah i guess i did u idiot if 82 wins gets u into the playoffs. You think the division wont have a 90 game winner again?

[ptk420biatch]

LMAO teets.

And NRMAX I love how you know the outcome of the 07 season already. Well in my outcome the mets are going to be #3 in the NL east.

[pinetarhand]

Would your opinion change if the Cubs signed Schmidt & traded for Westbrook. I know its a bunch of IF's so don't start on that tangent again, just asking a question.

[allabouthephils]

You are comparing the 91 Braves to the 07 Cubs...

The 91 Braves had a pitching staff that was about to blossom. They put together a team of epic proportions and were young.. All the Cubs have done is spend money on overpriced vets that make them from a cellar dwellar to maybe a third place team...get the pitching then talk...

Dont compare the LAST place Cubs and worst in the NL to the Phillies (2nd place NL East or the 5th best team in the NL last year). year......

[nrmax88]

ok ptk thats cool buddy i disagree with u

[ptk420biatch]

LMAO I love how mets fan is bashing the cubs, yet they are going to have to roll with oliver perez as a SP.

[nrmax88]

u can have your opinion though

[nrmax88]

u can have your opinion though

[baseballfan06]

Lets pretend, nrmax88 and allabouthephils, that you arent arrogant for a second. The Cubs have promised they will sign 2 SP this offseason. Everyone knows that this is going to happen. So with a rotation of:
Zambrano
Schmidt
Westbrook
Hill
Miller/ Prior

and a Lineup of:
Soriano
Murton
Lee
Aramis
Barrett
Jones
DeRosa
Izturiz

the Cubs still cant compete? Why!? Almost every team in baseball would kill to have a rotation like that. That Lineup, in the NL, is tremendous, the bullpen is more then solid. But you guys are right, teams never come back from a terrible season and make the world series...oh wait didnt the tigers do that last year? Plus the competition in that NL Central is terrible. Jim Edmonds is the best CF in baseball!???? what are you thinking? That pitching staff as it stands right now is terrible. and who else is gunna compete with the Cubs? Houston? that pitching staff will compete for the worst in the NL without CLemens and Pettite. Come on guys, think a little before you bask this team.

[baseballfan06]

bash*

[pinetarhand]

This is not the same Cubs team as last year, not by a long shot. So I will compare as much as I like because it's fun to & there are comparables.

I said it's possible to go from as bad as the Cubs were to a playoff team. I was not comparing teams player by player, just saying that it is definitely possible to be that bad & go to the playoffs the next year.

[allabouthephils]

I disagree with everyone in here except a mets fan..

How ironic is that???

I can't debate with you guys anymore though... I have to get some work done before I go home...It's been fun and im sure we'll debate about the Cubs again in the near future...Maybe after they sign Schmidt.

[Dave]

Alright morons.

The worst to first team in 91 was the TWINS. Dumbass.

[ptk420biatch]

Ok, see you later phils. Go get some work done and daydream wondering if wes helms can make it through a whole season.

[nrmax88]

i love it too, lol oliver perez will be a stud babyyyyy. Like u said its november, lots of moves to be made baby cakes. Just because minaya didnt run out like hendry and overpay for like 4 guys already like a highschool girl rushing out to the store to bu her prom dress before some1 else buys the same 1 doesnt mean he wont do something. Just the fact that u guys are gettinng so angry and worked up(with the exception of pinetar, who is capable of having a normal discussion) shows how worried u r about the cubs. You can say whatever u want about the mets.

"If the mets could play against the cards like the cubs play against the cards they might have won the world series."

Sure this may be true, but im not comlaining about it.

[pinetarhand]

Now that was a team that nobody would think had a chance.

[woodman]

NRMAX88 u need to to quit smoking what ever it is ur smoking because u have no clue about half of what u been saying barret,remirez,soriano,probably murton not to say derosa possibly better at there positions then what the cards have do some home work before u talk u wont look so bad

[Dave]

And Andruw Jones is the best CF in the game.

[ptk420biatch]

LOL, we are worried? We are cubs fans you fucking jackass, losing is a fact of life.

[Teetz]

"I can't debate with you guys anymore though..."

We're debating....with stats to back it up....you're just giving final statements with no backing. Basically you say something and give no reason why. Basically, the Cubs can't be playoff caliber...well just because...

[nrmax88]

lol
ok your the one who looks like an idiot because i didnt say that stuff woody. HAHA. I find it ridiculously funny that u r tellig me to do my homework, and meanwhile u mixed up my post with some elses. HAHAHAMaybe u go do some homework before u talk and u wont look so bad.

[nrmax88]

U guys r kinda instense. I dont need stats to back up why i dont think they will make the playoffs. I just dont. You dont need to yell about it though

[Teetz]

"Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics."

hahaha

[baseballfan06]

so nrmax, you expect to just be able to say "Cubs suck and cant win no matter what they do" and you dont think Cubs fans are going to come at you?? That fan base has endured almost 100 years of torture. They have every right to go off on someone who critisizes them for trying to get better. Id pick my fights better.

[pinetarhand]

This is some funny shit.

[pinetarhand]

"so nrmax, you expect to just be able to say "Cubs suck and cant win no matter what they do" and you dont think Cubs fans are going to come at you?? That fan base has endured almost 100 years of torture. They have every right to go off on someone who critisizes them for trying to get better. Id pick my fights better."

This isn't a fight. He's pushing your guys buttons for the hell of it, he even said so. stop being so serious

[Teetz]

"I dont need stats to back up why i dont think they will make the playoffs. I just dont. You dont need to yell about it though"

So you're a reverse sabermetrician. Also, how does one go about "yelling" on the internet?

[pinetarhand]

Seriously, if you get so annoyed by what someone is saying then ignore them. Otherwise, you're just posting for their amusement.

[nrmax88]

pinetar lol, this people are angry, and i love it. Teets so im not allowed to have a gut instinct? I'm really not worried about "picking a fight". Im not especially scared of a bunch of cub fans coming at me. Point is i still dont think they will make the playoffs. Teetz your sucha little cutie pie when your angry

[Teetz]

I'm doing it because I'm bored....just waiting for the Bulls game to come on. I'm not really annoyed at all....amused really...especially by this one...

"Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics."

That'll get me laughing good and hard all day

I have to say, with all this Jason Schmidt talk, I'm gonna be throughly disappointed if he doesn't accept that offer.

[pinetarhand]

He won't. It'll be some ludicrous 5 or 6 year deal that'll make him completely worthless out there with his walker & still making $15 mil plus.

[kevybo1]

I think the Cubs should trade Jauque Jones and Bobby Howry or Michael Wuertz or Will Ohman for Jake Westbrook. I woulde't mind the deal at all if it was Jaque Jones and Michael Wuertz or Jauque Jones and Will Ohman. One thing is for certain Jaque Jones is good trade bait and should be traded for a starting ptcher.

[pinetarhand]

"Phils the funny thing is i post this shit before i read what u posted, then i click the post button and realize we posted identical topics."

Yeah, that was really cute after all. I should save that & throw it out there everytime I see any of you on here.

[Teetz]

I think there's a good chance he will. Every year there are rumors about players wanting to go to their hometowns and I never see it.

He has a really wide face

[nrmax88]

Teetz if it makes u feel better then u can(since u brought up the topic of the bulls) make fun of the knicks. I am a big knick fan, now that i think about it theres aperfect examply of big payroll team loaded with talent that doesnt win.Knicks loaded with talent, no core player, or a proven winner. Huge payroll.

[pinetarhand]

KNICKS SUCK YOUR TEAM SUCKS THEY SUCK THEY'RE DUMB NOBODY'S DUMBER THAN THE KNICKS ALL KNICKS FANS ARE DUMB IDIOTIC MORONS THAT ARE ALSO CRETONS!!

[nrmax88]

pinetar do wut u gota do i dont care. Jacque jones is definitely not trade bait. No body wants him lol

[nrmax88]

pinetar i thought u were actually capable of a conversation just because i didnt like your team. Guess not. I know the knicks suck. One difference though. The knicks have won something in the past... i dont kno..... 100 years

[pinetarhand]

That was me being funny. I guess I'm not as good at it as I though. Oh well, back to sarcasm.

[Teetz]

You can't compare basketball with baseball. Basketball is team oriented, baseball...for the most part...is not.

Well Max, if you're gonna compare one sport to another, I'll do the opposite...the Bulls won 6 championships in the past I dunno...20 years. Knicks - Zero

[pinetarhand]

Maxx' favorite basketball player must be Reggie Miller

[royler]

I wonder if nrmax was born in '88 because he needs to grow the fuck up.

[nrmax88]

i know they did teetz. Thats ok though. Im not going to cry about it.Plus i like the mets jetss and rangers way more then the knicks.lol. I wasnt really being serious. Your wrong about baseball not being team oriented. There are the obvious things, lke a gu taking pitcher waiting for a guy to steal a bag, or a hit and run, where the runners moved the IFer, and the batter shoots the gap. Guys moving other guys from 2nd to 3rd with less then 2 outs, as opposed to being selfish and trying to hit a HR and popping up. Those arent even the most important things. Watch a few met games next year, or any good team. For the most part, these guys really like eachother and like playing together. They want to pick eachother up when somebody cant come through, as opposed to wanting to hit a HR to pad your own stats. You may say this makes no difference, but clubhouse does have an effect on a team.

[nrmax88]

royler your pretty angry buddy, is it because i made u look like a dumbass like 3 times today? Pinetar i absolutely love reggie miller, he is one of my favorite players ever.

[pinetarhand]

Interesting. I like him too

[Teetz]

Speaking of the Jets.

The Bears worked them nice and good two weeks ago.

Chicago > New York

[nrmax88]

Thats cool the jets are in a rebuilding year, and still in the playoff race. We werent even supposed to win 4 games this year. And i know the bvears still won, but they didnt work anybody. They got outplayed by a young team, and Chad threw 2 horrible interceptions. I would hardly call it worked. Bears got worked by the Pats last week. Pats got worked by the jets before that so i guess its all good buddy

[feelthebyrne]

Haha ok children enough with this. No one is right in here cuz it is all speculation n no matter how many times u can say something, u rnt just gna change wut a person thinks about his or her team. There are 20 legit playoff contenders and not all r gna make it. U dnt kno if lee would have made a difference if he was healthy cuz its in the past now. He couldve gotten into a slump. U just dont kno. All the stats and history could point to him improvind the team but anything can happen. So save ur breaths and badmouthing eachother's teams and just state ur opinions and there is no reason to get mad about wut someons says about r team, let them rant and just wait til season starts to get all butt hurt wen someone says wow the angels suck wen they are running away with the division by may. That was just an example but also my opinion :]. My point to this reply is that while all this bickering is entertaining, it is gitting annoying.

P.s. It is the angels that rule the universe not the cubs...heehee *sarcasim*

[Teetz]

They lose by 10 points, get shutout....but you're right, they outplayed the Bears.

[nrmax88]

lol, i know im right. Gave away a possible 24 points, or a gaurunteed12 if they only got a FG everytime though. Its ok though, the bears will get knocked out of the playoffs in the first game cuz rex grossman sucks

[redsox0909]

Is it possible for Manny to be traded to San Diego for Peavy and Linebrink. Ive heard some talk.

[Teetz]

Yeah....Pennington is so much better. I can throw a medicine ball farther than he can throw a football.

[nrmax88]

never said he was better lol, i said grossman sucks. You take parts of people arguements that u have answers for, and leave the parts u cant answer. This is a rebuilding year

[greenbaydude1232]

I emailed Carrie Muskat, the cubs.com mailbag writer with the link asking if there was any truth to it and she said that her sources within the cubs said the cubs have not made schmidt an offer and are not interest in schmidt or zito. I don't really get it but watever.

It occurs to me that the Cubs could be just trying to keep the offer on the downlow. To not affect the market or something. IDK.

[greenbaydude1232]

I know this was posted a long time ago but it is just so idiotic i cant help responding:

"1b Cards
2b Cards
SS Cards
3b Cubs ( but not if Rolen is healthy due to the gold glove he carries with him over there)
Catcher Cards
Left Field Cubs
Center Tie ( Edmonds best center fielder in baseball still)
Right Cards
Starting Pitching Cards
Bullpen Cards"

Lets try it again:

1b Cards
2b Cubs
SS Cards
3b Cards
Catcher Cubs (I'd rather have a guy who hits over .300 then one who can throw a couple more baserunners out)
Left Field Cards
Center Cubs
Right Cubs
Starting Pitching Cards
Bullpen Cubs

With that being said...YOU CAN NOT COMPARE TEAMS POSITION BY POSITION! Because some players are better than others etc. for example cards win the 3B position but by very little because ramirez is very good as well. Cubs win the CF position by A TON! cause Edmonds gets worse and worse every year.

[cubsfan1654]

""1b Cards
2b Cards
SS Cards
3b Cubs ( but not if Rolen is healthy due to the gold glove he carries with him over there)
Catcher Cards
Left Field Cubs
Center Tie ( Edmonds best center fielder in baseball still)
Right Cards
Starting Pitching Cards
Bullpen Cards"

Lets try it again:

1b Cards
2b Cubs
SS Cards
3b Cards
Catcher Cubs (I'd rather have a guy who hits over .300 then one who can throw a couple more baserunners out)
Left Field Cards
Center Cubs
Right Cubs
Starting Pitching Cards
Bullpen Cubs"

Ok your BOTH wrong.

Lets try this AGAIN

1b Cards (Lee's no slouch tho)
2b Cubs (Kennedy is pretty good tho)
SS Cards (Eck - consistent, Izzy - all over the place and just not that good most of the time EVEN NEIFI WON A GOLD GLOVE)
3rd Cubs (Ramirez defense and offense are improving every year, while Rolen is still great on d, his O #'s are declining)
LF Cards (Duncan looks like hes gonna be good, but so does Murton, Murton could be great, and if Duncan plays like last year over a full season he will be VERY GOOD)
CF Cubs (Jones and Sori are both way better than jimmy so CUBS)
RF Cubs (Sori and Jones are both better the Encarnacion)

Rotation Cubs (from what it looks like, the Cards have just as many holes as the Cubs in the staff, and id take Z, Hill, Prior, and the rest of the guys over Carp, Reyes, and Kip. Plus looks like the Cubs are gonna get Meche and Schmidt, so personally ill take Z, Schmidt, Meche, Hill, Prior Over Carp, Reyes, Wells, ?? Wainright?, ??)

Bullpen Cubs

but once again these comparisons are dumb and dont mean anything, just wanted to show my opinion of the two lineups

[MetallicRageX]

Hey allabouthephils

I would like to comment on losing BJ Ryan and Jorge Julio. BJ went for a fairly record setting price for someone who only had one season of closing under his belt. Frankly I feel a lot better about having Ray as our closer, he's cheaper and a lot younger, and has more upside.

As for Julio? If you've ever seen the guy pitch, sure he's got velocity but that's about it. He's a thrower, not a pitcher, and it shows when you watch the guy pitcher, a lack of command and decent pitchers beside his fastball will keep him from becoming the dominant closer he could have been.

[cubsfan1654]

wow i forgot Catcher

That goes to the Cubs too

[nrmax88]

Cubs suck