Bedard Traded To Mariners?

To the Marshall/Gallagher/Cedeno for Roberts/Huff stuff…

The Cubs wouldn’t be able to put both Roberts and Huff on the 25-man roster. They are having to move Murton just so they can add a back-up CFer (either Byrd from trade or Patterson/Fuld from the minors taking Murtons roster spot). Ward would have to be released to add Huff onto the team ~ seems pointless…

People really have to stop with just randomly throwing players names out there as possible additions. The Cubs in particular have no room to put anyone; they are trying to squeeze like 30 guys into 25 spots as it is. Sure, their fans might like to add all these ML guys, but that doesn’t mean it could ever work in the real world…

ALSO, this isnt even a Cubs/Roberts thread ~ why is that even being talked about? And its not like you cant find an actual Cubs/Roberts thread to talk about this in ~ there are like two going on at all times... This is the reason so many posters complain about Cubs fans and this site being so Cubs biased, no matter what, Cubs fans seem to try and make 50% of the posts into Cubs threads...

It's not our fault that the other fans can't compete with us Cub fans on the comments.

It's not that it's bad to talk about the Cubs, but for baseball fans who come from everywhere, it is pretty random that they'll come into, say, a Dodgers-Jays thread and then the post gets taken over by Cubs fan coveting the best players from each squad. Myself personally I would have to say that that is the one thing that ruins this site sometimes.

I completely agree basemonkey.... seems like it happens to every thread.

"Seems that if all those threads are getting a ton of posts, than Tim is probably doing the right thing by starting them. Isn't that the point? To deliver the latest rumors and let us discuss them? Is that not alright with you?"

Read it again ~ I said *this thread* isnt about the Cubs; Tim never mentioned the Cubs and this thread wasnt started to talk about the Cubs ~ its about the M’s and O’s…

I imagine some people might like to talk about the M's or O's (the two teams this thread is about) and if they wanted Roberts/Cubs info they would probably go to Roberts/Cubs thread (which like I said, there are generally two going on most of the time to find such info in). So yeah, I think, for the curtsey of everyone, that the topics should probably stay in the proper threads ~ esp on big news ones like this.

Is that alright with you, or do you feel everyone should just have every thread as a Roberts/Cubs discussion?

Dark, let's get to the real issue....what's up with Roberts to the Cubs?

It went to Roberts because many people, INCLUDING O's FANS, are wondering what they are going to get for him. Is that not alright with you, discussing that? Frankly, me and many others don't really care what you think. I was having a disussion with some Cubs and O's fans about what McPhail might get for Roberts now. I read your post. *this thread* had O's fans bringing up Roberts and the Cubs, and what they might get back for him because of the massive reloading they are doing. Get over it. Either read it or skip it, but either way, just do us a favor and shut up.

As long as they got an equal replacement for Clement, I think its a good idea as Weiters is going to be a stud.

Lets read your post again for a second dark, because its kind of ironic here. First, you go into the whole Roberts to the Cubs and why other players won't work in it....

then you go on to say no one should be talking about Roberts to the Cubs stuff. What a MFing retard.

Adun,

…Listen, I know it gets your panties in a twist every time I say anything, but come on dude ~ the obsession is way past pitiful…

But ok, I’ll humor you for a second ~ basemonkey & thenerbster posted instantly after I did agreeing with what I said because I am out of line, right?

And while I’m posting to you:
“As long as they got an equal replacement for Clement, I think its a good idea as Weiters is going to be a stud.”
…What does that mean? You do realize the O’s would actually have both Clement and Weiters if the trade as rumored is true, right?

Pinetar,

You do realize that it wasn’t Anti-Cubs, right? It was “hey, there is actually a Roberts/Cubs thread; why is this in here?” post. But again, see others agreeing instantly after I said it…

Andy Macphail loves two things: denying trade rumors and sweater vests

"[Mariners GM Bill Bavasi] called me yesterday and told me the news. I've got to go to Baltimore tomorrow morning and handle things there," Jones told a reporter from Diario Panorama in Venezuela, according to the Times. "I'm the centerpiece of the deal on the Mariners side.

Either Jones has a hard time understanding the English language, or McFail and everyone else is now trying to cover the deal up until it is finalized.

Sorry I was a part of it guys. I just think it's all conected and it shouldn't matter. Obviously what they get for bedard will directly influence what they get for roberts.

Cubs fans, feel free to chime in on the future of Yuniesky Betancourt? (Which makes me think, by the way, that Yuniesky may be poor Ronnie's ceiling: good talent, no power, SB, or BB.)

JrFukudome,

I did it so people didnt just ignore the second half and continue down the same conversation. The first part of my post ideally catches the eye of the Cubs/O's trade posters and stops the possible ideas, the second part questions why its in this location instead of where it should be...

I dont disagree that the Cubs are semi involved in this, but this trade would be big news and this particular thread wouldnt be the place to be having that conversation in, I imagine, many peoples eyes... People agreeing after I posted leads me to believe I was correct… Just like people didnt care for the Mets/Phillies/Braves stuff even though the Mets are just as effected as the Cubs are...

And I think the biggest thing now would be this ~ why is it when people ask why a non-topical discussion is being held, and say that its pretty much the reason the site gets a rep as Cubs-Biased (or why Cubs-Fans get a rep as being a obnoxious) would Cubs fans go on the defensive? Wouldn’t that lead to just more people saying the site is Cubs-Bias and that Cubs-Fans are obnoxious ~ you know, the thing Cubs-fans get so upset about… Wouldn’t just accepting the fact that others might want to talk about other things and holding the Cubs/Roberts talk in the Cubs/Roberts threads are a more logical way of protecting against the thing Cubs-fans are fighting against?

It was actually a Cubs fan that started it, O’s fans kept it up and it snowballed. When it was mentioned that maybe it should be held elseware, why not just hold it elseware? There was no need to talk about someone saying it should be held elseware, there is no reason to defend against being asked to hold it elseware, and there was no reason for anyone to say they are sorry because they were involved in it ~ just let the topic go back to what it should have probably been and its done… Ok?

I can't imagine that they would want pie after trading bedard. There is no way the cubs want to drop him either.Lofton would be good but he can only get like 400 at bats and pie is better defensively. Gallagher is in there but another pitcher will do it. I know I've said it 80 times now but gallagher,marshal and cedeno. Sherril closing? No thanks. I really can't see why he's in the deal unless we can flip him with roberts maybe. I could see sarfate and maybe hoey there this year but we'll see.

If this or this and a Wilkerson move is the last one for the M's, I'm willing to bet any Mariners fan that the club doesn't even win as many games as last year, 88, this year.

Any takers?

Remember Betancourt was considered a kind of prodigy, was he not?

Marshall, Veal, and Patterson.

Colvin is out too, they have too many outfielders...they want pitching prospects, at least they should if they are smart. That proposal gives them two, and Patterson as well. Good trade for both teams. Gallagher would be better than Veal for the O's...but as a Cubs fan, I'm hoping we can keep him.

F' it, dark star. I don't think there are any Mariners fans out there.

I don't know why but Juan Encarnacion pops up into my mind when I think of Pie. Along with him he came up with 1B Tony Clark and C Raul Casanova as Tigers top prospects. All of them were toolsy athletes with strong flashes of talent and the Tigers promoted them based on tools projections and ignored strikezone issues. Casanova had a great age 22 run. Clark was fast-tracked in spite of bad strikezone numbers because he had projectable power. In his 20s he had consecutive 30 HR seasons before he hit FA. Of the bunch the most legit is Juan Encarnacion who has worked out a pretty solid ML career. He never reached the 20-20 Beltran-esque superstar projections he enjoyed as a young 20 yr old, but he did turn out to be a solid ML player, albeit an average one.

To me an average legit ML player over a long period of time is a pretty solid player. I know that we may have a lot of young fans here who is having their first tastes of top prospects today in guys like Pie. Though for some of us who have followed baseball for a few decades understand, many average solid players today were actually top prospects at some point themselves. And baseball history is littered with players who have a good season a few years and then disappear. The one thing that keeps this projection going is the myth of linear progression.

Yes joemorgan, you are smart for asking it too. I am hoping McPhail isn't as smart...because those are the two of all of those players mentioned that I would really like to keep.

"Now its even part of the thread! Are we allowed to talk about it now dark? I guess that writer is an idiot for writing about Roberts and the Cubs in the same article because its too big of news to share...whatever."

...yet you arent obsessed, right?

The Orioles already had a very underrated system as it was after the Tejada trade. I think adding two arms like Tillman and Butler definately helps. they might go 12 or 13 deep in B prospects. The reason why they are underrated is because of a ton of C+ guys who could be B prospects with a good run here or there. After a Roberts trade the Orioles system would look pretty strong.

At last count SI and Rosenthal were reporting that Roberts may possibly command Pie-Gallagher. If that's the case, the system is even stronger. It's not as if they were bereft of pitching prospects before any of these trades. They could end up having pitching depth consisting of Patton, Liz, Olson, Penn, Spoone, Tillman, Butler, Arrieta, Beato, Bascom, Erbe, roughly in that order. Consider that the last guy there, Erbe, is a 19 yr old who throws 97 mph and if he were entering the draft now, he'd be a 1st rounder. Are you telling me we could add even more pitching to that crop? woh.

Dude, the best part is: You keep Morrow, Trunfiel, and Clement. How can Mariners fans complain?

So who's better? Bavasi, Shapiro, or Beane?

Pie and Gallagher = no way

Id have to say Beane is still # 1 , followed by Shapiro, then Bavasi is somewhere after.

Why doesn't the cubs deal Vitters instead of Pie ?

Orioles could use a thirdbasemen more then a cf, and it's not like the cubs need Vitters anytime soon.

I hope the Cubs do well this season whatever happends !

Assuming Sherril's gone and they have Bedard now, Morrow will be the set-up man and would not expect that to change mid-season, even if he would make the best SP alternative. They will do that next offseason if they need to. I see Morrow sticking in the 'pen.

All these prognostications make me laugh! I mean, I think the Mariners gave up a little too much, but they win the trade if Tillman and Butler blow out their arms. The attrition rate for young pitchers is extremely high. And while Jones may have the tools for superstardom, he has the plate discipline for above-averagedom. Don't get me wrong, 6 years of Jones are worth more than 2 of Bedard, but the M's think they can compete now and this certainly improves their chances.

If they get someone like Luke Scott back in the deal, I think it ends up being pretty fair. If its only Bedard, then the Orioles win.

They "only" got Bedard... Dude...

CF Adam Jones
LF Luke Scott
SP Chris Tillman
SP Tony Butler
SP Troy Patton
SP Matt Albers
RP George Sherrill
RP Kameron Mickolio
RP Dennis Sarfate
3B Michael Costanzo

FOR

SP Erik Bedard
SS Miguel Tejada

That is rebuilding. These guys are thrown into the mix along with their previous crop. These guys are all young but in '08 these are the guys who will probably play in the majors, not counting what's already on the farm:

RF Nick Markakis
CF Adam Jones
SP Jeremy Guthrie
SP Adam Loewen
SP Dan Cabrera
LF Luke Scott
SP Garrett Olson
SP Hayden Penn
SP Radhammes Liz
SP Chris Tillman
SP Tony Butler
SP Troy Patton
SP Matt Albers
RP George Sherrill
RP Kameron Mickolio
RP Dennis Sarfate
3B Michael Costanzo

That looks like a tremendous amount of pitching to me.

yeah the orioles are getting some good players, yet they still have huge holes in basically every infield position for the future. and then there's the whole AL east thing, with boston and NY, and the emerging rays, which will be a contending team for years. the blue jays are actually not bad themselves. the orioles are still stuck in the bottom of the division for years.

The Os have some top flight infield prospects coming up in Rowell and Wieters eventually. They will have holes in SS, 2B, and 1B though. That being said they do have some depth guys for 1B and a darkhorse in Snyder (give or take!). The one thing about the Os is that suddenly they have quite a few OFs. The Os have a few years to address those areas.

All in all, I think if you look at the roster as it is comprised of now it's really looking at a fraction of the picture. No one in their right mind is thinking any combination of Gibbons, Mora, Huff, Payton, Millar is going to be a part of the team as soon as it's reasonably possible to cut bait on them. So if it's those guys who you consider to be the gaping holes then it's not accurate.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that Adam Jones is actually a SS converted to an OF.

So it would be logical to think that the orioles would try to use him to plug a whole at SS and grab Felix Pie for CF.

just a thought

I really don't see Pie being included in this deal

Personally I think the Mariners made a mistake in buying too high on an outlier year from Bedard. I don't think he's a 10 or even a 9 K/9 guy and if he goes back to being a 170 IP 8 K/9 guy and the team's W-L record reflects its runs-runs allowed record more than it did last year, they won't be able to compete with the Angels.

I just don't think Felix Hernandez, Erik Bedard, Washburn, Silva, and Batista is the dominating pitching staff people make it out to be.

Granted: The Mariners didn't give up what people thought they had to. But then again, I think Mariners fans were overrating Clement a little and Morrow a lot.

How does Patterson + Cedeno + low-level RP sound for Roberts?

BxSquad, are you Lee Elia?

The Mariners didn't get the haul I expected...we hearing Clement, Morrow. It came down to earth a bit with Jones as the only sure thing. Tillman is still more projectible than performance and Butler's coming off a year where he didn't pitch. I don't think that would preclude them from trading for Gallagher or even Marshall. Those guys are still young but they are already major league ready. Tillman and Butler are too far away to be a guarantee of anything. Tillman is still more projectible than performance. Butler didn't pitch at all last year after rookie ball last year. Liz still has command issues, Spoone was in A ball. I'm not saying these guys aren't going to become good pitchers, only time will tell that. What I'm saying is you can never have enough good arms especially young ones with good arms -- who are ready to contribute already. Of all these guys, only Patton is ready to help the club this year or two. It makes sense for them to add Gallagher and possibly Marshall.

Sounds to me like the Orioles are getting a very good deal here. Top level prospects, including one who is ready to step in right away in Jones. I like Bedard (3.16 era 1.09 whip in AL East last year), but this is not like getting Johan. Bedard may end up being the best lefthander in the AL if Johan goes to the Mets, but he has never pitched 200 innings in his career, he has had only 2 legit big seasons (he didn't even get to 150 innings in 2004 or 2005, both seasons in which he had 4+ ERAs anyway) and he will pitch 2008 at 29. To put some perspective on where Bedard stands at this point in his development relative to the other 2 big pitchers on the trade market this offseason, Haren is younger by 1.5 years and already has 3 seasons over 200 ip and Johan is 7 days younger than Bedard and has 4 seasons over 200 ip. The Orioles are smart to do this deal and follow the lead of the A's by selling high on "young" pitching.

I'm not saying the Orioles got a bad deal, it's just that if they are rebuilding, they shouldn't assume they are finished. They got some nice projectable arms in the Bedard deal along with a nice CF'er. But you've got to continue to stockpile talent, not everyone pans out due to injuries and scouting miscalculations. I'm interested to see if the Cubs deal goes down and who's involved. I don't think Pie is involved but I do think the O's will get Gallagher, a good prospect like Colvin and a third player like Cedeno, another arm, or Eric Patterson - who's offensive game in the minors is similar to Roberts. The defense is nowhere near the same though.

Not really. Pitchers like Gallagher and Marshall have already made the majors - guys like Tillman (5.76 ERA) and Butler (no innings pitched?) have yet to succeed in high A ball. There's a difference. I'd want major league ready guys. And if these low level prospects have higher ceilings, then you don't want them to come in and start pitching 200 innings off the bat. A big-bodied guy like Gallagher who has always been healthy can fill in some - if not all - of the gap for innings pitched lost by Bedard. You also had about 150 innings lost by Trachsel. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the O's take Marquis for the same reason. If you've great arms, you'll need a bridge for a couple of years until these guys can handle a full workload. You also don't want to wear out young arms in the bullpen. Some of these guys like Guthrie and Loewen have had injuries. I wouldn't necessarily depend on them to eat innings. You can't expect Patton with his shoulder history to do it or Liz with his expected high pitch counts to do it this year either. If I'm a GM, I'd say give me a couple of guys who can pitch right now and let me ease these other guys in over the next couple of years. I can get a guy like Marquis who has proven he can be durable and eat innings. You're not going to win many games this year anyway but he can save your bullpen from overwork. And in the process, I may get someone like Gallagher who's a long term solution as well. Throw Colvin and another player in and the deal makes a lot of sense to the Orioles.

Although I don’t want to get into it as well; I do see Marshall’s name and stuff about the O’s pitchers being/possibly-becoming injured and what not… I think it should probably again be pointed out that Marshall has 4 straight years of missing time to injury and the last 3 have been from shoulder problems…

Espn says Angelos maybe holding the deal up and Jones isn't flying to Baltimore says a source

The Cubs are after 2 high profile players that help more then every 5 days says Crane Kenney(Chairman of the Cubs) on Espn 1000 Chicago. I say Greene and Roberts or Roberts and Figgins. He also thinks the deals will happen soon

Point taken, crunchy, and you are right. You can never have too much pitching. That being said, the Orioles have 3 pitchers who are garuanteed spots in the rotation (i.e. Adam Loewen, D. Cabrera, and Jeremy Guthrie). Guthrie and Loewen were the two guys who made the possibility of dealing Bedard do-able. Both could eventually replace Bedard's performance. DCab is a whole nother headache though. I don't think anyone really knows what to expect with him, another year of alternating domination with walk-a-thons?

That being said, it leaves 2 slots remaining for possibly 5-6 pitchers to fight it out with right now. I personally don't see the worth of adding Marquis to the rotation at this point. Though it is not a horrible idea for the Os, but I suspect it's a rumor that's more driven from Cubs fans hopes to save some of their prospects. I think Gallagher would be a fine addition but Marquis just doesn't make sense to me.

Basemonkey, I guarantee you that part of trading Marquis is wishful thinking on the part of us Cub fans! Guilty as charged. But I still think he can be useful for some of the reasons I stated earlier. That being said, Gallagher is probably the focus in any future deal for Roberts. I think if that deal comes, it will come shortly after the Bedard deal is official.

Agreed. I would think that IF Marquis is involved, he wouldn't be any more than a throw-in because he would be nothing more than a stopgap. If the O's took him, I wouldn't be surprised to see him re-dealt by the deadline for more young players once the O's young arms establish themselves. At any rate, basemonkey, I think you've raised my interest level in the O's rebuilding project beyond following McPhail. I mean, the haul they're getting from Tejada, Bedard and possibly Roberts -coupled with their own prospects will be interesting to watch over the next couple of years. This was a franchise that was treading water and it's obvious from reading the O's fans posts that a lot of hope has been restored. McPhail didn't work out to well with the Cubs but he appears to already be much more aggressive with Baltimore.