Angelos To Nix Roberts Trade?

"The Cubbies & their sad fans need to wake up if they think McPhail would pull the trigger on the current offer."

Us Cub fans need to wake up on how McPhail conducts business. Yeah, right!

crunchy, I will keep saying the same thing about Pie, too. I will stick to my guns on leaving Pie in CF for the Cubs. He brings more value there. We will have to live with some batting growing pains. I just think it is more valuable for the Cubs to keep him. I guess if it has to be he goes, it has to be. Then you do not include Colvin and he becomes your future CF after you get a stop gap until he is ready. So yeah, I still say keep Pie for what you pointed out as well. I guess anything is possible. However, I doubt the Cubs deal Smardzija. They signed him to a big bonus and contract.

Waiting for a better deal at the dealine is fine from the O's perpective. Waiting for a better deal because of injuries to possibly happen is not realistic. Also, there are no other teams jumping for Roberts right now. So maybe Angelos holds on to him. There are no promisses that works out.

"...the cubs press machine has built up their minor leaguers to look like future MLB regulars."

What names do you propose?

"This all-star for all-star stuff is just fan b.s."
I agree 100 percent!!! There is a rule that every team gets at least one all-star. Wasn't Roberts the only O's all-star. Was Roberts one of the top two 2nd basemen in the american league? Debatable! Could it be posible he was an all-star by default? Not picking a fight but this all-star stuff (as crunchy would say) IS TOTAL B.S.!!!

Who woke up all the White Sox fans? They came out of hyberbation to bash the Cubs prospects.

Cedeno was given a chance 2 yrs. ago and did not do well. He came up the September before and did real well. I don't know if it was his injury (got a busted hand on an inside pitch) that September or what. He has done what so many do when rushed to the majors, he failed. I am not saying Cedeno is a next Jeter, but is is so much better than he showed. He has nothing left in the minors to prove other than refining his game. This year is big for him. I really think he could push Theriot to a back up role if he puts his talent together. I like Theriot on my team, too. He is another one who has to make strides.

I don't think Hendry is trying to fleece McPhail. There were factors into the Ramirez trade. Money was one of them. Pittsburg wanted to cut payroll. Plus, he was tagged that he had a defensive lack of concentration. He came to the Cubs and has been much better than he showed in Pittsburg. He did have a bad defensive year 2 yrs. ago, but other than that he is just a notch below Rolen on defense. So, yes, Hendry took advantage of that.

I don't know if Murton is included on that rumor. It makes no sense to me for the O's to want him.

Btw, Hendry gave Littlefield a job late last year as a scout when he was ousted from the Pirates. Maybe that was his was of saying, "thanks Dave, I owed you one." ;)

Yes, white sox fans want nothing more than to bash cubs prospects. Of course that would mean that just about every scout that rates the cubs system must be cubs fans too. Think about it, why would cubs fans feel so secure about unloading Murton, Cedeno and Gallagher? Because you know they dont mean anything to your club. Its the same with any fan of any team. When the Sox looked at ANY deal this offseason the names throw around we always Broadway, Richar, Owens, etc, and almost never Gio or De Los Santos. Why was that? Because we didnt want to give up top value as well. If Cedenos was such a good prospect that would work out well in the AL east with the O's why wouldnt the cubs keep him on their team? He would obviously be a better option than Theriot if the value is what is claimed when discussing the trade. Face it, you want value you have to give value. A come-lately prospect plus 2 throw in garbage players isnt going to cut it no matter what the tribune tells you.

I meant sox fans too above. Zero of the cubs offering includes a top 100 prospect. In fact Gallagher is ranked #5 in a very thin Cubs system. They have 2 players that would be ranked as a top 100 minor league player, Vitters and Colvin. If the cubs wanted to get serious and match up with offers that have gone on this ENTIRE offseason when trading prospect for established talent, they have to step up and offer an actual top prospect. I would hope anyone who is trying to be an objective fan would realize this, especially Tim, when giving his opinion on the trade in the first page. For a White Sox fan, we traded our top 2 prospects, including a top 20 guy for Nick Swisher. We dealt Chris Carter who is now in the A's top 10 list for a basically "busted in their eyes" prospect in Carlos Quentin. You would put Roberts in the middle between those two players somewhere and would at least take a top 100 guy and some other good pieces to make a trade happen. And thats just being realistic.

Soto (a top 40 guy) and Jose Ceda will probably be in the top 100 as well. Anyway, just because Kenny Williams gets de-pantsed everytime he makes a deal, it doesn't mean that Hendry has to. The Sox had to give their two top prospects for someone like Swisher because they have the thinnest system of all - they had no one else that anyone would want. As it stands, only Poreda makes the top 100. And that's toward the lower end of the scale.

The Derek Lee trade is one of those. CPat is one of those.

if that's not worth top prospects, then what is?

It wasn't my intention to slight Swisher. It's just that the Sox top two prospects are the only two teams would want. The Sox don't have the depth that the Cubs system does -- and that's saying something because the Cubs system isn't very deep. And Williams is in a situation where he has to win this year or he'll probably get fired. He could care less about which prospects he gives up at this point because if he doesn't win, he won't be around long enough to see them anyway.

Rock,

"They have 2 players that would be ranked as a top 100 minor league player, Vitters and Colvin. If the cubs wanted to get serious and match up with offers that have gone on this ENTIRE offseason when trading prospect for established talent, they have to step up and offer an actual top prospect."

I don't believe they could trade Vitters in any trade yet. Rules prohibit it. He was just drafted. Colvin is availble if the Cubs choose to trade him. Do not worry about our farm system player rankings. The WS have a worse farm system than the Cubs. I believe they rank last or near last. Kenny had to fire the head of the farm system last year.

Base,

"I love it how Cubs fans love to offer the Orioles Ronny Cedeno. The Cubs have a way of offering trades in such a way to always want to offer trash and get back a great player."

This is one Cub fan who hopes Cedeno stays.

Btw, I see we have a WS fan downplaying Cub prospects and an O's fan calling a guy like Cedeno trash. He is not Jeter all over again, but not near trash. Are you kidding me? The Cubs farm is not a top tier system right now. Both of your clubs farm systems make ours look elite. The WS had to trade their top guys to get a good, versitle player in Swisher. Good pick up, but a stiff price to pay. The O's had to trade a stud lefty...A STUD LEFTY to help build their team up.

Cunchy, you obviously missed the entire point of my post, it had nothing to do with KW or what the Sox gave up, its the quality of players they gave up for a player that is more valuable than Roberts, but not extremely more valuable. Gio was a better prospect than anything the cubs have. And I know that doesnt say much considering the cubs are near the bottom of the rankings, but the value of that one player says alot. DLS was also a very valuable piece and Sweeney was the top positional prospect and many think is the sleeper of the deal. I understand they cant trade Vitters, but I was trying to say what hte value is. You have to look at other deals that have happened on the marketplace. Gallagher isnt a top 100 guy, Vitters and Colvin are the only guys that are. And still they are not at the top end of the spectrum, Colvin isnt in the top half from what I remember. And studio, NOBODY is downplaying the value of your prospects because of our team allegiance, you have 2 fans of two different teams stating what scouts and experts say is the value of these guys. Who is more likely to be accurate, a cubs fan discussing a trade or two fans of other teams citing examples of experts? I am trying to be as objective as possible. If I am the GM of the O's i do not want players that you guys readily would give up. Murton is a platoon player at best, Cedeno cant even make a spot on a team with no SS, Gallagher has been inflated due to the press mentioning this trade over and over. If I am McPhail, my interest is in at least one of your top 3 guys, most likely Colvin and probably some throw ins with low value like Pie. That would be at least a start. You have to be realistic about what other teams would want, not what you would be willing to give up.

Also, why does Murton's name keep being brought into this rumor? Forget Murton in all of this Roberts talk. I must have missed those recent posts. I saw a couple Murton + so and so posts. I think most Cub fans (might be wrong) realize Murton is not what the O's really would need. I think those Cub posts were from a while back when it all started. I'm still trying to see why you say Pie would be a low level throw in, from a Sox fan being objective.

I didn't misunderstand your post at all, rockraines. Buyers are different. Williams is a desperate buyer and everyone knows it. Everyone knows his job is on the line to win now, so people will get more out of it. And every team would want the Sox top two prospects because #3 Poreda isn't available yet and everybody from 4 on down is mid to low level. And how can you talk down on Murton but in the same breath talk about how great Sweeney is??? That's absurd! They're both corner outfielders with little power -- but Murton has actually produced in the majors. In fact Murton produces in the majors what Sweeney does in AAA. Give me a break. In fact, ALL of your comparisons are subjective and biased toward your team. It pretty much makes them worthless. (Love the one about Pie being a throw-in but Sweeney being the "sleeper".) Try to be objective. You're thinking like a fan, not a GM. A fan wants a brand name prospect to compensate for their all-star. The Cubs and O's are just trying to make their teams better. Unlike the Sox, the Cubs are a good team with talent on their roster -- and they have much better depth in their system than the White Sox do. They can trade 3-4 good prospects and young players instead of one "top 50 guy". The White Sox had two good prospects (not including Poreda who can't be dealt anyway) and a bunch of soft-tossing pitchers, backup infielders and 4th outfielders in their system. They're not able to put a decent quantity trade together so they have to trade their top two guys. They don't have any choice because their system is bare. And McPhail isn't going to make a deal based on the Baseball America list anyway, he's going to make a deal that makes his team better. A third starter like Gallagher who will pitch a lot of innings will make his team better. Ronny Cedeno would be their starting SS and Murton would get a lot of AB's platooning with Scott. You've got three players contributing right off the bat as opposed to one all star second baseman. If McPhail thinks that deal makes his team better overall now and in the future then he'll pull the trigger. It's as simple as that. If he doesn't, then he'll ask for different players. I think the final deal will be different than the one reported on this site. But looking at top 100 lists is stuff for fans to chew on. The only thing that really matters in the real world is that you feel like your team is better for having made the deal. The rest is nonsense.

Case and point on rankings is Colvin. Tim Wilken's first draft he took Tyler Colvin #1 in 2006. I believe he was ranked 175th best college player at the time. Something like that. If I recall, he had an injury that dropped his ranking. At the time, I remember 'experts' saying what is up with the Cubs chosing this guy. We'll see in time either way. Ratings are not always an accurate gage, but are needed and of value. I, too, feel the end result will be a trade of something different than I or others are discussing. I believe it does go 3-4 players for Roberts, with a couple lesser names that could pay off for McPhail. The Cubs would be happy getting Roberts and the O's would be happy in 3-4 players (1-2 known ready to go, 1-2 possible good pick ups) for Angelos to sign off.

Good point about Colvin too, Studio. Wilken has a habit of doing that. People wondered what he was doing when he took Vernon Wells 5th overall or when he took Alex Rios in the first round. This guys has picked something like a dozen first rounders in a row who have reached the majors -- you would think people would stop questioning him by now!

Does anyone know how Colvin projects defensively? Can he play a good, and by good I mean above average CF if we trade Pie? Thats the only way I would think they would be trading Pie, if they felt Colvin was going to take that job in 09.

From what I understand he plays an above average CF to go with his great arm. He's not Pie out there, but not many people are. He's a pretty fluid athlete in his own right, though. He's drawn comparisons to Steve Finley - but he's not as fast. Still, the more I think about it, the Cubs probably aren't dealing Pie.

FYI, I asked Keith Law in a chat about Gallagher, and the fact that he has the same numbers so far as Adam Miller. He said while his stuff isn't as good as Miller's, he could be at the back end of any rotation right now and definitely should be for the Cubs if they were smart...

Adunc,

Couple things. I wasn't making a personal attack when I said (and I stand by this statement) that I'm always skeptical of fans of one team dictating the terms of what is an "ideal" trade for BOTH teams. I explained why.

As for your ideal trade, it's obviously NOT an ideal trade, or it would already be done. I'm sure those names have been bandied about (we've seen the rumors long enough), and if both teams thought that was ideal, this trade would already be made. It hasn't been so it clearly isn't.

And I also stand by my earlier assertion of the Cubs having two of the top 100 prospects. I DID see the entire list and counted two. If I miscounted, someone who has access to that list can tell me...rather than someone who THINKS he saw Gallagher and THINKS the Cubs had more than two.