Pirates Owners Did Not Kill Bay-Braves Trade

The Pirates are a joke.

Wasn't Lillibridge in the Gonzalez-LaRoche deal?

Ya Lillibridge was int he Gonzo-Laroche trade and now they want him back cuz they were too stupid too trade him before. If the 'talented A pitcher is anyone other than Jeff Locke or Cole Rohrcough, then this is a good trade.

The only way the Pirates should consider dealing Bay to the Braves is if Jason Heyward is included in the deal. They should not do it for marginal prospects like Lillibridge and Brandon Jones.

Something like Lillibridge, Jones, and Rohrbough (who's a very promising arm but has struggled mightily at times this year) would be a sizable haul for Bay, but one that the Braves might be willing to pay if they think they're still in the hunt this year.

An extension for Bay doesn't make a lot of sense for Pittsburgh. Even if he maintains an all-star level for the next couple of years, the team's not likely to contend before his decline sets in. He's also tethered to LF, which (because of where it is on the defensive spectrum) is probably the easiest position, along with 1B, to fill with cheaper options.

I call BS Nuttig isn't the 1 Vetoing trades, It's Coonelly & even then I don't believe this HACK

Vetoing the trade could also be a negotiating tactic on the part of the Pirates. Try and see if the Braves will give up more.

A lot of it depends on who the A ball pitcher is. Rohrbough has a great arm and a great strikeout rate so far. And while his 6.05 ERA looks horrible, this is largely the result of terrible luck (.406 BABIP and 58.3 LOB%) and poor command (5.12 BB/9). No way his BABIP against and LOB% stay where they are and fangraphs has his FIP at 3.28 (I believe this is ERA with netural BABIP and LOB%, but I'm not actually sure).

Trading for Jones and Lillibridge would be savvy, in the sense that Pittsburgh would be buying low on both. I actually like the trade if it is Rohrbough. Not quite as much as Locke, since Rohrbough seems like the better prospect (better arm even though he's had less success).

Brandon Jones seems like an odd target though. They should ask for both Rohrbough and Locke if they can't get Hanson. Maybe Rohrbough, Locke, Lillibridge, and whoever the 4th player was.

I doubt the Braves would even consider dealing Heyward straight-up for Bay. The kid hasn't even turned 19 yet and he's already posting a .318/.383/.467 line in low-A. He also seems to have a very advanced approach at the plate, at least that's what I gather from his 41 BBs and 65 Ks in 364 ABs. This kids probably going to be a top 10 prospect by the time next season rolls around.

And Pirates fans wonder why their team hasn't been any good in 15 years...

Heyward's looking like the next Dave Winfield. He's not going anywhere.

pen76, the Pirates can't sit around waiting for someone to offer a top 10 prospect for Bay - ain't gonna happen. Bay will be long gone before Pittsburgh makes a run at a division title.

In stock-market terms, you have to buy low and diversify. Jones, Lillibridge, and Rohrbough are all down from their value at the start of the season, and all are young enough and talented enough to rebound.

Besides, I'd put money on Jones having better numbers than Bay in 2010 and 2011, which is about the earliest Pittsburgh's going to have a chance to contend - if everything goes right.

Nevermind what I said about Jason Perry, I misread his birthdate. He's 28 years old. But. maybe they could get a guy like Kala Ka'aihue, who could take over at 1B if they decide to get rid of LaRoche.

Pen76,

It never really matters what a player is worth. It matters on what you're gonna get. No one is gonna give up a top 10 prospect for Jason Bay. Maybe the Mariners. But, the point is, Bay is worth 3-4 good prospects, but any great ones. He's not worth a Heyward or a Schaffer, because Heyward and Schaffer could possibly outproduce him at a fraction of the cost. You can't think like fan with trades, you have to think like a GM.

No way Heyward is traded.

If the deal was Jones, Lillibridge, and Rohrbough (plus 4th), I think it would be a good deal for the Pirates. Of course, depends on who that 4th player is. If it was Eric Campbell (total speculation), a guy with very nice upside who has seen his stock plummet the last 1.5 years (think Andy Marte part II), then I would really like the deal.

Even if they never trade, hopefully more details leak out. I am very interested in who the pitcher and 4th player are. I think that will tell us a lot about Neal Huntington.

pen76,

The only top 10 prospect that's been traded in the past year was Cameron Maybin, and that was in a deal for Miguel Cabrera, who was only 24 at the time, had a few years left before he hit free agency, played 3B, and was already a far better hitter than Bay, along with Dontrelle. Good luck finding someone dumb enough to give up a top 10 prospect for 1 year of Jason Bay.

I love the way Braves fans think
that they can just shove any of
their crap the Pirates way and
Bucs fans should be thankful for
the priviledge of taking it up
the butt. (Usually followed by
the obligatory..duh, makes sense
to me, duh!)

Well, how about this one: Bay for Hanson, Rohrbough, Heyward, Freeman and Lillibridge?

See! NOW WE CAN ALL BE IDIOTS.

Oh and just to put into context how good Heyward is, he is currently 4th in the SAL in average and 5th in OBP at the age of 18. Every single buy ahead of him in both categories is at least 22. He is also 8th in OPS.

I didn't realize the Braves still had a farm system after last years trade with the Rangers. How'd that one turn out for the Braves?

How many breaking balls has Heyward seen from ML Pitchers? How many allstar caliber seasons has he had in the big leagues?

Find me a team that will give up a top 10 prospect for Bay, knowing that he's due to hit the market after next season, and I'll bite.

Pittsburgh's overall payroll this year is $48M, up from $38M last year. They'll free up $13.35 million after '09, when Freddy Sanchez and Jack Wilson's contracts expire. Bay's extension is likely to eat up most of that payroll room, leaving them with little room to acquire any of the other pieces they need (which, of course, will then include a double-play combination as well).

Bay's a hell of a player, but you're looking at 35-40% of the team's payroll for a left fielder. That leaves the GM with no room for error in signings, and the need to fill many of the team's needs with pre-FA guys from within the system. Those players simply aren't there right now.

Baseball Prospectus listed only four guys likely to have a significant impact in their "Future Shock" list last January - Andrew McCutchen, Steven Pearce, Neil Walker, and (maybe) Daniel Moskos. That's not enough to rebuild this franchise around Bay.

Jones and Lillibridge, along with Jose Tabata, would probably take the #2 through #4 prospect slots on BP's list right behind McCutchen, ahead of Pearce and Walker. That's at least a start toward something beyond shooting for .500 every season.

KKR666 and pen76,

You two are insane. Brandon Jones was Baseball America's number 70 prospect coming into the year, and both Lillibridge and Rohrbough just missed the cut. These guys were 4th, 6th, and 7th in the Braves system, and all 3 would now be moved up a spot after Jair moving on to the majors. You are talking about 2 very solid major league ready prospects, both 5-6 controlled years left, and a very high upside starting pitcher. This is all for 1 year of Jason Bay, and you don't think this is even close to a fair deal? Oh an you compare it to asking for Atlanta's top 2 pitching prospects and their top positional prospect (who will almost certainly be a top 10 overall prospect next year), along with 2 other guys? You two obviously have no clue. Have fun watching Bay lead you to 70 wins a year for the next 7 years.

My point exactly ChicagoBucco! Bay is every bit as productive as Teixeira and look what the Braves gave up for him. Besides, Bay must be something special if Billy Beane wants him. He never makes a trade for a guy like Bay. He always sells them!

pen76,

Beane probably wants him because he know he can outsmart Huntington and get Bay for cheap package. then he can turn around and flip him for a much better deal with much better prospects. Because that's Billy Beane, a goddamn genius.

and I agree with Colonel Tom, I like to see the underdogs perform. Nate McClouth is one of my favorite players, same with Freddy Sanchez because he went to my high school. But, when you start coming at me because I'm a Braves fan, then we have a problem.

bravesrule14,

You just proved my point!

If Beane can get as much as you think he can for Bay next year, why shouldn't the Bucs get that much this year?

"My point exactly ChicagoBucco! Bay is every bit as productive as Teixeira and look what the Braves gave up for him. Besides, Bay must be something special if Billy Beane wants him. He never makes a trade for a guy like Bay. He always sells them!"

We gave up a highly regarded near MLB ready prospect, a young high upside SS, and an unknown pitcher in rookie ball who could throw in the upper 90's, along with two throw in pitchers. How is that so much more than two solid, MLB ready prospects, and a young, high upside pitcher, along with throw ins? One package is more about luck and projection and the other is about two guys who are ready to go and another prospect that is all about projection. The Salty package might be a little better, but we also got Mahay (and a draft pick when he left) in that deal, so there's a good reason for that.

bigpat,

A real pitching prospect? You mean like a 21 year old thats striking out 11.67 batter per 9 innings in the SAL?

I never said the Pirates needed a huge package of players in return. What I said was they need a CAN'T MISS PROSPECT. None of which the players named are! Not that that is what the actual deal on the table is, just saying the Pirates need a guaranteed STUD in return.

"

Starchild,

When did any of us ever say we were great? Stop focusing on putting words in out mouth and start focusing on forming intelligent responses from yours.

WOW that really HURT ME!!

Give me some more of that Snappy Repartee you hicks use"

Are you really trying to insult us for our intelligence with the crap you are posting? Ohhhhh, you can use the word repartee in a sentence, so I guess we should all just bow down before your superior intellect. If you really think people in Atlanta are hicks you should come check us out sometime. A huge percentage of our population is northern transplants and we have the fastest growing metropolitan area in the US. What exactly does Pittsburgh have going for it?

Omar should look to get involved here. Jon Niese has to have more value then Lillibridge or Jones I would think, the question is who is the 3rd guy. I would think Niese and Evans would have more value then Jones and Lillibridge though. I wonder if Niese, Evans, Dan Murphy, and high upside kid like Cesar Puello gets this done. Murphy and Evans are both outproducing Jones this year (albeit while at AA while Jones is in AAA), and are a couple of years younger, and Niese could be a valuable part for a team looking for some young pitching. Puello is a 17 year old 6'2, 200 lb toolsie kind of kid. If this package could get a deal done I pull the trigger if I am Omar, use Heilman to fill in a rotation spot next year rather then trying to pay a free agent number 4 starter for 9 million, and look to fill Heilmans relief role during the winter. I don't know about how Pittsburgh would feel, but I would think this package would equal too, if not a bit better then the one Atlanta supposedly offered. Maybe even add in Scott Moviel instead of one of Evans/Muprhy, an 19 year old 7 footer pitching in A ball right now, though I would try to avoid that is possible.

bigpat, you're forgetting that the Bucs threw away the two supplemental draft picks they'd have netted if they'd simply kept Marte until the end of the season, and perhaps more for Nady depending on his Elias ranking. The Nady/Marte deal was essentially those two PLUS the supplemental draft picks for Jose Tabata, with some organization filler (read: the kind that might help you reach 75-80 wins a year) thrown in for sh*ts and giggles.

Unless Tabata turns out to be a star, I don't even think you could call that deal a wash - not because Nady and Marte are worth all that much in and of themselves, but because of the draft picks squandered by a franchise with very little in its minor-league system. The deal we've been talking about here (which, of course, is pure speculation on our part) would go much, much farther toward strengthening the franchise for the long haul.

"Also, the last highly touted OF prospect the Mets had was Milledge and their last LHP prospect they had was Kazmir, so thats another reason."

This is just flawless logic.

Bay is absolutely a top 10 LF

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Pirates Owners Killed Bay-Braves Trade
By Tim Dierkes [July 28, 2008 at 12:36pm CST]

According to Mark Bowman of MLB.com:

A proposed deal, which would have brought Jason Bay to Atlanta in exchange for four Minor Leaguers, was killed when presented to the Pirates owners for approval.

Bowman believes Pirates targets might include Brent Lillibridge, Brandon Jones, a talented A ball pitcher, and a marginal position player prospect. He says the Braves will continue to pursue Bay.

Full Story | Comments (60) | Categories: Atlanta Braves | Brandon Jones | Brent Lillibridge | Jason Bay | Pittsburgh Pirates
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The Pirates are a joke.

Posted by: ArodSucksAtLife | July 28, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Not a good sign if the Bucs ownership is going to continue to meddle in the trades Huntington makes.

Whether that's a good yield for Bay is a reasonable question, as neither Lillibridge nor Jones has shown much this year.

Posted by: SC | July 28, 2008 at 12:42 PM

Wasn't Lillibridge in the Gonzalez-LaRoche deal?

Posted by: stove611 | July 28, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Good Lord. The problem here is that ownership doesn't have enough confidence in their GM to let him make the decisions. In that case, they should fire him and bring in someone they trust.

If they're not serious about dealing Bay, they'd better have an extension just about finalized by now. Otherwise the Bucs are going to be in exactly the same spot next year, only without Bay having the added trade value of a year remaining on his contract.

Posted by: ColonelTom | July 28, 2008 at 12:51 PM

Ya Lillibridge was int he Gonzo-Laroche trade and now they want him back cuz they were too stupid too trade him before. If the 'talented A pitcher is anyone other than Jeff Locke or Cole Rohrcough, then this is a good trade.

Posted by: Showtime35 | July 28, 2008 at 12:52 PM

While Lillibridge has struggled for the most part this year, he put up decent numbers in AAA last year and he actually showed good power for a SS when he did get called up this year. I think its obvious that he has the bat and glove to play at the major league level eventually. As for Jones, he also played well at AAA last year and looked okay in his big league stint this year. I think the biggest piece for the Pirates would obviously be the pitcher they got from the Braves. They have some pretty impressive guys at the lower levels currently.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 12:55 PM

The only way the Pirates should consider dealing Bay to the Braves is if Jason Heyward is included in the deal. They should not do it for marginal prospects like Lillibridge and Brandon Jones.

Posted by: Tom THE man | July 28, 2008 at 01:02 PM

The only way the Pirates should consider dealing Bay to the Braves is if Jason Heyward is included in the deal. They should not do it for marginal prospects like Lillibridge and Brandon Jones.

Posted by: Tom THE man | July 28, 2008 at 01:02 PM

Something like Lillibridge, Jones, and Rohrbough (who's a very promising arm but has struggled mightily at times this year) would be a sizable haul for Bay, but one that the Braves might be willing to pay if they think they're still in the hunt this year.

An extension for Bay doesn't make a lot of sense for Pittsburgh. Even if he maintains an all-star level for the next couple of years, the team's not likely to contend before his decline sets in. He's also tethered to LF, which (because of where it is on the defensive spectrum) is probably the easiest position, along with 1B, to fill with cheaper options.

Posted by: ColonelTom | July 28, 2008 at 01:02 PM

My bad, I didn't mean to post that twice.

Posted by: Tom THE man | July 28, 2008 at 01:02 PM

I call BS Nuttig isn't the 1 Vetoing trades, It's Coonelly & even then I don't believe this HACK

Posted by: Starchild | July 28, 2008 at 01:04 PM

TOM THE MAN theres no chance in hell that Jason Heyward will be moved anywhere. Let alone for Jason Bay. pffff

Posted by: Showtime35 | July 28, 2008 at 01:13 PM

Vetoing the trade could also be a negotiating tactic on the part of the Pirates. Try and see if the Braves will give up more.

A lot of it depends on who the A ball pitcher is. Rohrbough has a great arm and a great strikeout rate so far. And while his 6.05 ERA looks horrible, this is largely the result of terrible luck (.406 BABIP and 58.3 LOB%) and poor command (5.12 BB/9). No way his BABIP against and LOB% stay where they are and fangraphs has his FIP at 3.28 (I believe this is ERA with netural BABIP and LOB%, but I'm not actually sure).

Trading for Jones and Lillibridge would be savvy, in the sense that Pittsburgh would be buying low on both. I actually like the trade if it is Rohrbough. Not quite as much as Locke, since Rohrbough seems like the better prospect (better arm even though he's had less success).

Brandon Jones seems like an odd target though. They should ask for both Rohrbough and Locke if they can't get Hanson. Maybe Rohrbough, Locke, Lillibridge, and whoever the 4th player was.

Posted by: mymrbig | July 28, 2008 at 01:14 PM

First off, I don't like the fact that ownership is meddling. But, I have to agree with them on this one. If you trade a guy like Bay, the centerpiece has to be a can't miss prospect. No such thing exists in the current proposed deal. The Pirates don't need a MLB ready OF in this package either. They are not going to be .500 this season and McCutchen is more than ready to take over next year along with Pearce and McLouth. If the Pirates can't get a better deal than this, they should just keep Bay and sign him to an extension, then maybe move Pearce back to 1B and let LaRoche go.

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 01:17 PM

I doubt the Braves would even consider dealing Heyward straight-up for Bay. The kid hasn't even turned 19 yet and he's already posting a .318/.383/.467 line in low-A. He also seems to have a very advanced approach at the plate, at least that's what I gather from his 41 BBs and 65 Ks in 364 ABs. This kids probably going to be a top 10 prospect by the time next season rolls around.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 01:17 PM

ya top ten for sure. at the midseason top 25 prospects he was #5. is Jason Bay worth a #5 prospect. no chance

Posted by: Showtime35 | July 28, 2008 at 01:21 PM

And Pirates fans wonder why their team hasn't been any good in 15 years...

Posted by: FineHamAbounds | July 28, 2008 at 01:22 PM

I wouldn't mind Rohrbough, Locke, Lillibridge and maybe someone like Jason Perry(Double A, OF) for Bay. That'd seem pretty fair for both sides in my mind.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 01:22 PM

Heyward's looking like the next Dave Winfield. He's not going anywhere.

pen76, the Pirates can't sit around waiting for someone to offer a top 10 prospect for Bay - ain't gonna happen. Bay will be long gone before Pittsburgh makes a run at a division title.

In stock-market terms, you have to buy low and diversify. Jones, Lillibridge, and Rohrbough are all down from their value at the start of the season, and all are young enough and talented enough to rebound.

Besides, I'd put money on Jones having better numbers than Bay in 2010 and 2011, which is about the earliest Pittsburgh's going to have a chance to contend - if everything goes right.

Posted by: ColonelTom | July 28, 2008 at 01:22 PM

pen76,

Teams just don't deal can't miss prospects for position players anymore. They've realized its far smarter to keep the can't miss guy at a fraction of the cost for far longer than whoever they're trading for. If the Pirates were somehow able to convince someone to give them a can't miss guy, that's probably going to be all they can get anyway. For a team like the Pirates with a questionable farm system and little financial flexibility, it seems like an extremely high upside pitcher and two major league ready, solid prospects would be a pretty solid package for 1 year of Bay. Especially when you consider Bay isn't going to make a difference next year and it makes little sense for the Pirates to tie up the amount of money it would take to sign him to a long-term extension.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 01:24 PM

Nevermind what I said about Jason Perry, I misread his birthdate. He's 28 years old. But. maybe they could get a guy like Kala Ka'aihue, who could take over at 1B if they decide to get rid of LaRoche.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 01:28 PM

ColonelTom,

Bay is only 29! Plenty of good years left in him. At least 6-7. If they can't get a team together in that time it really isn't going to make a difference, is it. Bay is easily worth a Top 10 prospect. Especially at the $7.5Mil for next year. As much production as Tex for almost half the price!

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 01:32 PM

Pen76,

It never really matters what a player is worth. It matters on what you're gonna get. No one is gonna give up a top 10 prospect for Jason Bay. Maybe the Mariners. But, the point is, Bay is worth 3-4 good prospects, but any great ones. He's not worth a Heyward or a Schaffer, because Heyward and Schaffer could possibly outproduce him at a fraction of the cost. You can't think like fan with trades, you have to think like a GM.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 01:34 PM

not any great ones*

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 01:34 PM

No way Heyward is traded.

If the deal was Jones, Lillibridge, and Rohrbough (plus 4th), I think it would be a good deal for the Pirates. Of course, depends on who that 4th player is. If it was Eric Campbell (total speculation), a guy with very nice upside who has seen his stock plummet the last 1.5 years (think Andy Marte part II), then I would really like the deal.

Even if they never trade, hopefully more details leak out. I am very interested in who the pitcher and 4th player are. I think that will tell us a lot about Neal Huntington.

Posted by: mymrbig | July 28, 2008 at 01:36 PM

**** Just to clarify ***

If you read Mark Bowman's post, he says that the trade would have been for 4 minor leaguers. He does not REPORT anything else. The players he names (Jones, Lillibridge, A-ball pitching prospect, marginal positional prospect) look like nothing more than SPECULATION on his part.

So take the discussion of the players with a grain of salt!

Posted by: mymrbig | July 28, 2008 at 01:40 PM

pen76,

The only top 10 prospect that's been traded in the past year was Cameron Maybin, and that was in a deal for Miguel Cabrera, who was only 24 at the time, had a few years left before he hit free agency, played 3B, and was already a far better hitter than Bay, along with Dontrelle. Good luck finding someone dumb enough to give up a top 10 prospect for 1 year of Jason Bay.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 01:41 PM

I am not thinking like a fan. The Pirates already know that Bay will give them a discount to sign an extension and stay in Pittsburgh. Mark my words, the Pirates will net a Top 10 Prospect for Bay. The Pirates can't afford to give up the production of Bay and not get a stud in return. 30 plus homers and 100RBI is a lot to give up, no matter how little you guys think Bay is worth.

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 01:42 PM

I love the way Braves fans think
that they can just shove any of
their crap the Pirates way and
Bucs fans should be thankful for
the priviledge of taking it up
the butt. (Usually followed by
the obligatory..duh, makes sense
to me, duh!)

Well, how about this one: Bay for Hanson, Rohrbough, Heyward, Freeman and Lillibridge?

See! NOW WE CAN ALL BE IDIOTS.

Posted by: KKR666 | July 28, 2008 at 01:44 PM

Well said KKR666!

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 01:46 PM

Oh and just to put into context how good Heyward is, he is currently 4th in the SAL in average and 5th in OBP at the age of 18. Every single buy ahead of him in both categories is at least 22. He is also 8th in OPS.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 01:50 PM

Heyward will never be moved, he could be on the MLB squad by the age of 19 if he keeps it up. I see another Ken Griffey Jr in the making.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 01:51 PM

I didn't realize the Braves still had a farm system after last years trade with the Rangers. How'd that one turn out for the Braves?

Posted by: txrangers22 | July 28, 2008 at 01:53 PM

pen76,

You are absolutely correct. The Pirates aren't going to trade Bay unless they get a massive return. If the Braves aren't ready to do that, fine. Then...go away.

I think some of the Braves fans are still trying to get over the LaRoche trade.

Posted by: KKR666 | July 28, 2008 at 01:53 PM

How many breaking balls has Heyward seen from ML Pitchers? How many allstar caliber seasons has he had in the big leagues?

Posted by: ChicagoBucco | July 28, 2008 at 01:54 PM

Yeah I love how these "SUPPOSED" Braves fans think that they are so GREAT, Atlanta is a Joke of a City for sports Teams Thrashers are an AHL team Falcons are a Cluster**** with a JOCKSNIFFER FOR AN OWNER & the Braves can't sellout home Playoff games, OHH that sounds like that ASS Skip Caray

Posted by: Starchild | July 28, 2008 at 01:55 PM

Find me a team that will give up a top 10 prospect for Bay, knowing that he's due to hit the market after next season, and I'll bite.

Pittsburgh's overall payroll this year is $48M, up from $38M last year. They'll free up $13.35 million after '09, when Freddy Sanchez and Jack Wilson's contracts expire. Bay's extension is likely to eat up most of that payroll room, leaving them with little room to acquire any of the other pieces they need (which, of course, will then include a double-play combination as well).

Bay's a hell of a player, but you're looking at 35-40% of the team's payroll for a left fielder. That leaves the GM with no room for error in signings, and the need to fill many of the team's needs with pre-FA guys from within the system. Those players simply aren't there right now.

Baseball Prospectus listed only four guys likely to have a significant impact in their "Future Shock" list last January - Andrew McCutchen, Steven Pearce, Neil Walker, and (maybe) Daniel Moskos. That's not enough to rebuild this franchise around Bay.

Jones and Lillibridge, along with Jose Tabata, would probably take the #2 through #4 prospect slots on BP's list right behind McCutchen, ahead of Pearce and Walker. That's at least a start toward something beyond shooting for .500 every season.

Posted by: ColonelTom | July 28, 2008 at 01:57 PM

I love the way Braves fans think
that they can just shove any of
their crap the Pirates way and
Bucs fans should be thankful for
the priviledge of taking it up
the butt. (Usually followed by
the obligatory..duh, makes sense
to me, duh!)

Well, how about this one: Bay for Hanson, Rohrbough, Heyward, Freeman and Lillibridge?

See! NOW WE CAN ALL BE IDIOTS.

Posted by: KKR666 | July 28, 2008 at 01:58 PM

KKR666 and pen76,

You two are insane. Brandon Jones was Baseball America's number 70 prospect coming into the year, and both Lillibridge and Rohrbough just missed the cut. These guys were 4th, 6th, and 7th in the Braves system, and all 3 would now be moved up a spot after Jair moving on to the majors. You are talking about 2 very solid major league ready prospects, both 5-6 controlled years left, and a very high upside starting pitcher. This is all for 1 year of Jason Bay, and you don't think this is even close to a fair deal? Oh an you compare it to asking for Atlanta's top 2 pitching prospects and their top positional prospect (who will almost certainly be a top 10 overall prospect next year), along with 2 other guys? You two obviously have no clue. Have fun watching Bay lead you to 70 wins a year for the next 7 years.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 02:00 PM

Starchild,

When did any of us ever say we were great? Stop focusing on putting words in out mouth and start focusing on forming intelligent responses from yours.

ChicagoBucco,

The same could be said for McCutchen and Pearce, so I don't really know what you're getting at. Heyward is a future star, barring any unforseen events.

KKR666,

If the Pirates want to wait around for a massive return for Bay, then they'll be waiting till the end of time. No one, I repeat, No one is going to give up top prospects for him. This is why Pittsburgh is such a meddling organization, they wait for the big payoff instead of the taking the smarter and better deal. and btw, I don't know if you've been watching the same Adam Laroche, but Mike Gonzalez is now our closer and Laroche is your struggling 1B.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 02:01 PM

My point exactly ChicagoBucco! Bay is every bit as productive as Teixeira and look what the Braves gave up for him. Besides, Bay must be something special if Billy Beane wants him. He never makes a trade for a guy like Bay. He always sells them!

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 02:02 PM

KKR666, not sure if you meant me, but I'm not a Braves fan, by any stretch of the imagination. I'm a Phillies fan, so seeing Bay go to Atlanta is definitely against my self-interest.

I'm simply a baseball fan who would love to see Pittsburgh have a team worth seeing, to play in what might be the best stadium in baseball (certainly the best if you disregard the history of Fenway and Wrigley and just look at the ballpark experience right now).

I grew up watching Willie Stargell and Dave Parker dominate in the late '70s. Bucs fans were *rabid* back then - that fan base is still there, but disillusioned after decades of failure. Especially after paying the taxes to fund that new stadium, they deserve much better than a franchise that thinks .500 is a laudable long-term goal.

Posted by: ColonelTom | July 28, 2008 at 02:05 PM

pen76,

Beane probably wants him because he know he can outsmart Huntington and get Bay for cheap package. then he can turn around and flip him for a much better deal with much better prospects. Because that's Billy Beane, a goddamn genius.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 02:07 PM

txrangers22,

I don't know how you can be gloating about the trade, when one of the two centerpieces is currently OPSing .673 and the other is having a breakout season with a .703 OPS. I know Neftali Feliz has looked good, but he's still a huge question mark and I've yet to hear about him developing any other pitches (besides his ridiculous fastball) which would limit him to the bullpen in the majors.

If you look at it from the Braves perspective, they gave up Salty, who isn't a good enough hitter to play 1B and was never going to beat out McCann, Andrus, who is still a few years out and would have struggled to beat out Escobar, and Feliz, who is still years away and may not be anything more than a closer/setup man. The other two pitchers aren't anything special. I'm just happy that we were able to sell high on Salty before his stock dropped big time this year.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 02:09 PM

and I agree with Colonel Tom, I like to see the underdogs perform. Nate McClouth is one of my favorite players, same with Freddy Sanchez because he went to my high school. But, when you start coming at me because I'm a Braves fan, then we have a problem.

Posted by: bravesrule14 | July 28, 2008 at 02:10 PM

Starchild,

When did any of us ever say we were great? Stop focusing on putting words in out mouth and start focusing on forming intelligent responses from yours.

WOW that really HURT ME!!

Give me some more of that Snappy Repartee you hicks use

Posted by: Starchild | July 28, 2008 at 02:11 PM

bravesrule14,

You just proved my point!

If Beane can get as much as you think he can for Bay next year, why shouldn't the Bucs get that much this year?

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 02:13 PM

Um, pen76, I believe that was sarcasm...

Posted by: ColonelTom | July 28, 2008 at 02:14 PM

"My point exactly ChicagoBucco! Bay is every bit as productive as Teixeira and look what the Braves gave up for him. Besides, Bay must be something special if Billy Beane wants him. He never makes a trade for a guy like Bay. He always sells them!"

We gave up a highly regarded near MLB ready prospect, a young high upside SS, and an unknown pitcher in rookie ball who could throw in the upper 90's, along with two throw in pitchers. How is that so much more than two solid, MLB ready prospects, and a young, high upside pitcher, along with throw ins? One package is more about luck and projection and the other is about two guys who are ready to go and another prospect that is all about projection. The Salty package might be a little better, but we also got Mahay (and a draft pick when he left) in that deal, so there's a good reason for that.

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 02:14 PM

Thank God this trade didn't go through. I can sort of tolerate the Nady deal because everybody knew he was playing way above his head, but Bay all star caliber when healthy.

Can the Bucs trade for some REAL pitching prospects already! Not 26 year old bums or outfielders which we already have more than enough of. God, they are so dumb.

Posted by: bigpat | July 28, 2008 at 02:16 PM

bigpat,

A real pitching prospect? You mean like a 21 year old thats striking out 11.67 batter per 9 innings in the SAL?

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 02:18 PM

"I don't know if you've been watching the same Adam Laroche, but Mike Gonzalez is now our closer and Laroche is your struggling 1B."

I found several problems with this quote.
1. The Pirates no longer had a need for Mike Gonzalez, because Matt Capps was ready to assume the closer role.
2. Adam Laroche is putting up his average numbers. And by no means is he "struggling". He is right around his career average, after a huge slump in April and May. He will still hit around .270 and hit around 20 home runs, which are around the league average for a first baseman.
3. Mike Gonzalez was hurt essentially all of last year and the greater part of this year. He has been virtually useless up to this point.

My point is that you think that Braves got the better part of the deal, but really they didn't. Compare numbers and games played, then see who got the better deal.

Posted by: Tom THE man | July 28, 2008 at 02:20 PM

I never said the Pirates needed a huge package of players in return. What I said was they need a CAN'T MISS PROSPECT. None of which the players named are! Not that that is what the actual deal on the table is, just saying the Pirates need a guaranteed STUD in return.

Posted by: pen76 | July 28, 2008 at 02:21 PM

I think the Mets should make a push for either Holliday or Bay. I would honestly rather see them deal Fernando Martinez than Jon Niese. Martinez is very injury-prone, and Niese is looking great right now for Binghamton. Also, the last highly touted OF prospect the Mets had was Milledge and their last LHP prospect they had was Kazmir, so thats another reason.

For Bay: Martinez, maybe a B-C level prospect and cash.

For Holliday and Fuentes: Martinez, Bobby Parnell, Mike Carp, and a few b level prospects.

Posted by: nymforlife | July 28, 2008 at 02:21 PM

"

Starchild,

When did any of us ever say we were great? Stop focusing on putting words in out mouth and start focusing on forming intelligent responses from yours.

WOW that really HURT ME!!

Give me some more of that Snappy Repartee you hicks use"

Are you really trying to insult us for our intelligence with the crap you are posting? Ohhhhh, you can use the word repartee in a sentence, so I guess we should all just bow down before your superior intellect. If you really think people in Atlanta are hicks you should come check us out sometime. A huge percentage of our population is northern transplants and we have the fastest growing metropolitan area in the US. What exactly does Pittsburgh have going for it?

Posted by: nixa37 | July 28, 2008 at 02:21 PM

Aside from the fact that Pittsburgh isn't Atlanta thank God, It has the Penguins, Steelers Pitt BB & FB

Ratlanta is the worst sport fan city going

You are talking about top 10 prospects in a given system? That is quite different then talkin about top 10 prospects in the world.

Ratlanta is the worst sport fan city going

Posted by: Starchild | July 28, 2008 at 02:36 PM

Actually, I live in Los Angeles. Trust me, Atlanta has nothing on Los Angeles as far as worst fans. Dodgers and Lakers fan are some of the most idiotic people I've ever met. You want horrible sports fans, watch the NBA Finals games in L.A.

Starchild,
Thanks for clogging up the board by copy and pasting what we can already read.

Sweet you guys have a couple good sports teams. That's what should really be important. I guess LA really sucks because they don't have a football team.

Atlanta isn't a great sport city because so many people move here from other places and never adopt the local teams.

Oh and Pitt FB is now a positive? When is the last time they were good? You do realize Athens and UGA are just down the road right?

Also, weren't the Penguins on the verge of moving less than 5 years ago? You guys must have been doing a great job supporting them through the tough times.

enchinga,

Compensation picks are late in round 1 and then in the sandwich round between 1 and 2. The slots for those picks are below $2 million. If your team is confident enough in their scouting to spend that much on a guy who could save you tens of millions down the road, then you have a serious problem with your scouting and player development.

nixa37-That's the problem, with the exception of this year(Alvarez/Scheppers) the Bucs have spent 1st round picks on people like Bullington(now an Indian), Burnett, VanBenschoten,etc. Now those picks were made under the Littlefield regime, and the jury is still out on NH and Co.

You lost me at Raul...

"I beg to differ. I'd say you could make a case for him, but he isn't a sure Top 10 LF. Matt Holliday, Manny Ramirez, Alfonso Soriano, Pat Burrell, Carlos Lee, Ryan Braun, Carlos Qunetin, Raul Ibanez, Carl Crawford, and Adam Dunn could all be better. I'm not saying all of them are better than Jason Bay, but you can't say he is absolutely a top 10 LF.

Ok...

Matt Holliday- No. He will not be as productive as Bay once he leaves Colorado.

Manny Ramirez- Of course. Best offensive player of the last decade.

Alfonso Soriano- No. Career OPS plus of 116 to Bay's 131. Provides the same power as Bay without any of the OBP. Soriano does not run enough anymore and his defense is brutal. Bay is younger. Advantage Bay.

Carlos Lee- See Alfosno Soriano. Provides similar power, without the OBP. Horrendous fielder.

Pat Burrell- Maybe. Similar players. Burrell has been better this year but Bay has been better over the last few years, last years injury year not withstanding. Similar, but Bay has the slight advantage over his career.

Ryan Braun- Yes, he is a better hitter. Would like to see him get his OBP up, but Braun is better, and younger. Braun is a true slugger.

Carlos Quentin- No. Quentin is breaking out, but he has to prove to me that he can do it for a period of time, like Bay has done. And Quentin is in his first full year, and in a new league. Next year will be a telling season for Carlos.

Raul Ibanez- Shut up.

Carl Crawford- Completely different players. Only thing Crawford has on Jason Bay is speed. Bay is a better hitter, better OBP, better SLG, better average. I would like Crawford much more in CF, his numbers are much more valuable there. I will take Bay over Crawford personally, but again, it depends on the team and the need.

Adam Dunn- Again, similar players. Dunn will have a SLG about 30 points higher and an average about 30 points lower most years. They have just about identical career numbers. Bay is a lot better in the field. Take your pick.

Again, Bay is absolutely a top 10 LF.

And even with Manny Ramirez. I shouldn't have said of course. I think right this second, Jason Bay is about equal with Manny, while Manny is regressing a bit. The only guys I take without a doubt over Bay in LF are Ryan Braun, Barry Bonds, and I think thats pretty much it. He is in the next tier of guys with Burrell, Dunn, Holliday, and Quentin too me. Then Soriano, Lee and Crawford in the next tier.

-The Pirates are not in playoff contention, and Jason Bay isn't going to help them make a run this year.Why not start building for the future and bring in good prospects like Brandon Jones who could possibly become an MLB outfeilder within a year, Lillibridge is a good young shortstop that could back up an aging Jack Wilson. And if they want another prospect the Braves need to give them another prospect.

tmac.. if you look at it like you are though, I can make a similar case for the Mets. Jon Niese can probably be ready by 2010, possibly mid 2009, possibly even a september callup this year for a rebuilding Pirate team. They could take their choice of Carp, Evans, and Murphy, who dont have high upside, but Evans and Murphy can all play 1b/3b/LF/RF as far as I know, they have all played all the corner spots in the minors to prepare for the bigs. Those two so far should be equal to or better then Brandon Jones and Brent Lillibridge, and then the Mets would probably give them a younger high upside guy like Puello, or another youngster exlcuding Wilmer Flores, and possibly another arm like Brant Rustich, Dillon Gee, Dylan Owen or Scott Moviel.

Last year, Pirate ownership was burned significantly by the unforgettable trade for Matt Morris and his 10 million dollar salary. With his release earlier this season, ownership has to proceed with some caution. The Pirates lost 3 of 4 to the lowly Padres after the Nady/Marte trade. It's tough to watch this team now; I cannot imagine watching them without their lone consistently legitimate star.

I would rather keep Bay and move Pearce back to 1B and dump LaRoche and his anemic 1st halves!

What about guys like prado and james they may have less controlled years but an fill in right now an will only get better. James is back to dominating and prado would put up similar number to escobar if he got the playing time.

pixburgher,

The reason Maholm was taken out after his brilliant performance was because he had thrown 118 pitches. He has been by far their most consistent pitcher this year and they aren't gonna let him throw anymore than that.

nrmax you can add Michael Antonni to that list he is like Gee and Owen but is a lefty and has had more success this year at St Lucie.

I definately think it is worth it to make a push for Bay this will solidify our lineups as one of the tops in the NL. It also allows you to put him in the cleanup spot and slide Beltran in the 2 hole.

Yeah as long as Delgado produces that sounds about right.