Speculating On The Yankees: McLouth and Lowe

TNS, the defensive metrics don't agree with you at all. They seem to think Cabrera is the better CF than McLouth, and one would assume that's what the author is basing his opinions on. For what it's worth, Nate McLouth has the lowest RZR (and not that great of an OOZ/9) among all qualifying CFers.

This year, McLouth was a -40 in the field, costing the Pirates about 32 runs or so in 1300 innings. He ranked 35th among CF.

Cabrera was a +6 in 973 innings for the Yankees in CF.

YanksFanSince78

I agree with you 100%.

I dont get how people could even say mcLouth is a better defender than Melky. He has a great arm, good range and could rob people of homers. mclouth is an average fielder, melky is a great one, none of u guys have seen him play.

I dont think the Yanks should get Lowe. Hes 35, he'll probably want a 4 year deal. Id rather see them get Burnett or Garland than Lowe.

I would agree that Nate is not a true center fielder but I think that if the Yankees did get him he would be their best option in CF.

I believe though Nate would require Cano and something though.

McLouth would be a nice pickup for the yanks, but you have to wonder if they would be willing to give up the prospects necessary to get him. The pirates would probably want a good haul for him because his contract is so good. I can't see the yankees parting with hughes, cano, jackson, melancon, or montero for him. If the pirates would be willing to except a deal centered around kennedy and some young bullpen arms (which is very unlikely), then a deal may happen. I think of the three big holes the yankees have (CF, 1B, P), center field is the least problematic with gardner showing a bit a promise and jackson a year away.

As for Lowe, I think it's a no-brainer to the yankees, especially if "CC will only sign on the west coast" rumors are true. Going into next season, the yankees only have 2 pitchers confirmed in the starting rotation, wang and joba. I think its a pretty good bet that hughes makes his way into the rotation as well. that leaves 2 spots open, with joba also needing to be spelled for an occasional start. Lowe is a proven veteran who can go out every 5 days and pitch a solid game. The yanks don't need him to be an ace, only a good 3 or 4, which he is very capable of being.

The jury is still out on CC. Will he stay true to the rumors that he wants to stay on the west coast? The yankees are going to make an insane offer on him, probably much higher than the next highest bidder. Money talks, and the yankees will be screaming at CC to come to the bronx. But I think regardless of what CC does, the yankess should go after Lowe hard.

Are you people not listening? How is McLouth a better option? Because he had 1 good year where he hit 24 hrs and 94 rbis? If the Yanks only hit 180 hrs last year do we need to find someone in CF who can help us hit 210 just because we can? And if you trade Cano for him then you have to find a replacement for 2b. We have comepetent CF in Melky or Gardner who can give us good defense. if they play great in CF and hit .250 10 hrs and 50 rbis then I'm happy. If we need to improve offensively then keep Cano and sign Tex for 1b. You people are insane with your direction. CF is fine. We may not have an all-star selection there but do we need 9 all-stars on the field in order to win? Look at the Rays how many all-stars do they have as position players? 3 or 4. We can be a good team with a good defensive cf with a light bat. And Melky is still young. He's only 24. In 07 he hit .273 w/ 8 hrs, 24 dbls and 73 rbis batting anywhere from leadoff to being a #9 hitter. Are you saying with work he's done? No possibility of being a productive hitter. Why bring in McLouth when you have Jackso who figures to be your CF of the future. I can't imagine any reason why the Yanks would trade a commodity like Cano or other prospects for a CF when they have 3 options already on the team. Pitching...1B.....those are the places we need to improve. Next year we lose the contracts on Damon and Matsui and you have FA's on the market like:

Left fielders
Jason Bay
Carl Crawford - $10MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout
Johnny Damon
Matt Holliday
Hideki Matsui

Center fielders
Rick Ankiel
Coco Crisp - $8MM club option with a $500K buyout

Right fielders
Jermaine Dye - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Brian Giles
Ken Griffey Jr.
Vladimir Guerrero
Xavier Nady
Magglio Ordonez - $15MM club/vesting option with a $3MM buyout

I'd rather go with Melky/Gardner/Jackson next year and if we need to improve go after Coco Crisp, Holliday, Bay or Crawford if available.

@ Yanksfan

Not sure that I follow. Just using OPS as an example:

McLouth - 853
Cabrera - 641

200 points in OPS is nothing to sneeze at. That's a huge difference. Not to mention the speed advantage McLouth has.

You are then advocating signing Tex. Why go after him? Again, using OPS:

Tex - 962
Giambi - 876

That's about 90 points in OPS (of course Giambi is a butcher in the field and getting older). Significant, sure. Not nearly as substantial as the gap between Melky and McLouth. By going after Tex instead of Giambi you also hand the Angels your first round pick.

I think that it is fairly reasonable to say that a Tex/Melky combo will perform equivalent to or even worse than a McLouth/Giambi duo. The latter will also cost less (probably around $10m) but will cost in prospects.

ballerwhiteboy:

Before you start talking out your ass please read what I wrote. What I said was that we dont need a $210 million dollar team to win. meaning that I would be more than happy with having a CF who provided good defense rather than going after a guy who hits hrs. Yes If our team cost $200 million then you should expect all-star caliber players BUT it doesn't mean we have to go out and SEEK to BUY an all-star AT every position. WITH a team with the likes of arod, jeter, posada, damon, etc I feel like we should be able to carry a bat of a defensive minded player like Melky rather than trading Cano or other prospects for McLouth when a new CF ISN'T the priority. Pitching and 1B are areas we should address before trading for McLouth.

AND PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE HE'S THE 2ND COMING OF JOE DIMMAGIO. HE'S ONLY HAD ONE GOOD YEAR!!!!!

STATS, STATS, STATS....wow. Is that all it comes down to.

McLouth has had one good year.
Cano has had 2 all-star caliber years.

Cano had an off year.

McLouth had his first good year.

Cano is a 2b with a good glove and a good bat. Take away this past year and you'll see. He hit .342 two years ago and .300 w/ 19 hrs and 97 rbis last year hitting in the #7 or 8 spot.

McLouth while a very talented CF has only had 1 full year and has only 1 good year to speak of. How is he a "proven" stud w / only 1 full year of eveidence?

If the ONLY hole we had was CF AND we had a 2B replacement then maybe we can have another conversation. BUT PITCHING and 1B are more important spots to fill.

The Yanks hit 180hrs (tied for 5th) with the Rays. Did we finish in 3rd place because we didn't hit 205 hrs..???? No. But let's say we did need more offense. Why would we trade offensive from a premium position like 2B where it's tough to get a bat when for nothing but money and a 1st rndr we can go get Texeira (THATS IF WE TRULY FELT WE NEEDED TO ADD A BAT). And we stand to lose a 1st round anyway because we're going to go after at least 1 or 2 type A free agent pitchers.

If you idiots want to say McLouth is better than Cano then go ahead. But my MAJOR point is that

A) lack of offense in CF was NOT the major reason why this team finished 3rd this year.

B) We have DECENT OPTIONS to fill CF next year in Melky or Gardner. They may not be ALL STAR CALIBER PLAYERS but we don't need them to be that. If they play good defense and can hit .250 and steal bases and drive in 50 rbis then I'm happy.

C) If offense were a concern then McLouth would not be the person I would go after...Texeira would be because thats where we have a legitimate need. Trading Cano would open up a hole and weeken our offense at another position.

D) If Cano were traded who would replace him? A 31 yr old Hudson who will cost you money, a pick and would demand at least a 3 year deal.

In 2010 who wants a 34 yr old 2B, a 36 yr old SS and a 35 yr old 3B. Cano is one of the few talented , young position players we have in the infield. he's proven he can hit and deserves an opportunity to try and turn things around.

SO kiddies what have we learned?

If the 2B's "bad" year wasn't the main reason we falterd and if a lack of CF offensive production wasn't the reason we failed then why trade a commodity and bring in an unknown factor at either of those positions.

WOW....there's no way in hell the Yanks are going to include Moreno in ANY TRADE. Not with a 38 yr old Posada. Moreno is only 19 yrs old. He can be brought along slow. If he comes up during the last year of Posadas deal to mentor from him he's only be 22. People are saying he can be a 35hr catcher.

Maybe you guys dont keep up with the Yanks but Cash's plan is to get younger and to do so from withing if possible and to sign a FA if we don't have a trade that makes sense for us. We're not going to weaken one spot to sure up another.

DSteckel, the system is an objective one. Simpler metrics like RZR show that he's pretty damn bad too.

Maybe he "looks" smooth in the field, I don't know. But when it comes down to it, he was extremely inefficient in the field.

I've never heard anyone other than a Bucs fan mention anything about trading for mclouth or laroche. I'm a yanks fan but people need to stop acting like the bucs are the yanks AAAA team...yes I did say 4 A's.

Actually, I've read several yankee fans on this blog say they would like Laroche. The only reason we are talking about McClouth is because TD posted a link to a NY newspaper mentioning the possibility of acquiring McClouth. I'm pretty sure a Pirates fan didn't write that article. YanksFan...I agree with your arguments and I think Cash would be a fool to trade Cano now because he would be selling low and he does appear to have a very high ceiling. If they do than his attitude problem must be bigger than expected. I stated early in my post that I didn't think McClouth would be dealt to the Yanks; I was just playing the what if game. Unlike you I do feel he would bring value to your team. He could man center field until Jackson is ready and then move to a corner when its time for Damon to leave. I have watched quite a few Yankees games and I'm less than impressed with Gardner or Cabrera. I don't think either of those guys look like starters on a Pirates team let alone a Yankees team but that's just my opinion. Again, from waht I have read it seems that the NY FO will not pony up the bucs for Tex but will use it to go after starting pitching: CC or Burnett (could they sign both)? If they invest all of that money in pitching I doubt they get Tex too. Laroche is a FA after 09 but you're worried about him coming from the NL? Nady and Bay came from the same team and they seem to be doing just fine. Hamilton had an ok year for the Rangers too. Of all your arguments (which are pretty valid) league adjustment should pretty much be a non factor.

We have also read on this blog that the Yanks do have interest in Hudson which is the only reason we are talking about Cano in a deal (that and his reported attitude problem). I don't think anyone said McClouth was better than Cano but if you are looking at STATS, STATS, STATs, they are players moving in very opposite directions. McClouth has had one and a half very good years (All-star this year) and continues to improve. It's not his fault that Tracy and Littlefield were idiots. If you want to make the argument that Cano is too valuable to be dealt for McClouth that's fine, but you shouldn't do it buy trying to sell McClouth short. I think there would be plenty of teams interested in a 27 yr old OF with 30-30 potential and .850 plus OPS. The man drove in 94 runs while hitting lead off most of the year.

if the yankees are worried about a hole at second, then we can just throw-in steady freddy in the deal. or is the 2007 nl batting champ not good enough for ya

Bucsox:

If a Yankee fan declared Cano a star after only 1 year then I'd call them crazy too. Let's not mince words. I'm not insulting McLouth but what I am saying is that calling him a superstar and a "proven stud" after 1 year is a joke. Cano however has posted 1 very good rookie year, 2 all-star caliber years and 1 good major league "sub par" season for his standards.

In 1,305 at bats Mclouth is a .261 hitter.

In 2,218 at bats Cano is a .306 hitter. Facts are facts.

Even last year Cano's stats were just as good/better than McLouth's and he did it as a 2B batting in the 7th and 8th spot.

Cano '07

.306-19hrs-97rbis-.353 OBP

vs

McLouth '08
.276-26hrs-94 rbis-.356 obp

Turnkey:

The Yanks, when healthy, have all-star caliber players in Arod, Jeter, Abreu, Cano, Posada,Damoy point, Matsui and Nady. Not saying they HAD all-star years but they can put up those kind of numbers in any given year and it wouldn't surprise anyone. My point is this:

WE DO NOT NEED TO GO AFTER AN ALL-STAR CALIBER PLAYER OR PLAYER WHO HAS BEEN AN ALL-STAR AT EVERY POSITION IN ORDER TO COMPETER/WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP. IF A PLAYER LIKE A MELKY OR A GARDNER CAN PROVIDE STRONG DEFENSE AND HOLD HIS OWN WITH A .250 BAVG, SOME SPEED AND 50 RBIS THEN THATS GOOD ENOGUH FOR ME BECAUSE OUR TRUE "ALL-STAR" PLAYERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO CARRY 1 WEEK BAT IN THE LINEUP.

DOES EVERYONE UNDERSTAND THAT??
I'M NOT EXCUSING SUB PARPERFORMANCES FOR A TEAM WITH A PAYROLL OF 200 MILLION. I'M SIMPLY SAYING WE DONT HAVE TO "PLACE" OR "OBTAIN" A HIGH PROFILE ALL-STAR AT CERTAIN POSITIONS IN ORDER TO WIN.

SO RATHER THAN GOING AFTER A NATE MCLOUTH TO BE OUR CF (THUS GIVING US AN ALL STAR CALIBER PLAYER AT EVERY POSITION), I'D RATHER FILL OUR HOLES AT PITCHING AND 1B.

IF JETERE WERE TO RETIRE IN 5 YEARS I WOULD RATHER THEY SEEKA GREAT DEFESIVE GLOVE AT SS RATHER THAN TRADING PROSPECT TO GET THE NEXT HR HITTING SS. GET IT, GOT IT? GOOD.

YanksFanSince78, dear god, stop using caps lock, surprisingly it doesn't make the rest of us think you're smart, we just think it's annoying trying to read it.

I agree with yanksfan1, as he implied a mclouth for cano trade is silly for the yanks. While mclouth's value couldn't be higher and cano's couldn't be lower it doesn't mean the trade is fair. Mclouth is more likely a flash in the pan than Cano.

Start wearing purple:

Pardon the caps but they are used to emphasize a point rather than to declare my intelligence, so before you start popping off please take into consideration the purpose behind its use. I can type something in English but people seem incapable or unwilling to comprehend that I’m not insulting McLouth at all.

I take that back I mostly mean his OBP, SLG, and BA.

Yanks Fan...

I understand your position and thanks for clarifying. And not to be redundant but I do agree with you, for the most part. I don't think CF is a top priority for the Yanks but if the don't resign Abreau, the OF you'll be putting on the field next will not exactly strike fear into the hearts of opposing pitchers, IMO. As far as Cano, I really am not sure why people are so down on him (and I'm speaking of Yanks fans) but like I said earlier, Cash would be a fool to sell low on him. He has a very high ceiling; especially considering the fact he is a middle IF. Again, I was just playing the what if game because I don't expect the deal to go down for the reason you have cited...the Bucs do not have a lot of top trading chips other than McClouth, Doumit, Maholm and maybe Snell. To trade one of them would require a very good haul from the Bucs perspective or there may well be a revolt in the Burg. Anyway, no disrespect meant. I think every fan tends to overvalue their hands a bit anyway. And good luck to the Yanks..they are a much more fun team to root against when they are in the playoffs (lol)!

mymrbig, just to give you a heads up by mentionng the Snell for Cano thing Yankee fans are going to make upwards of 50 posts slamming you.

OOH OOOHH Can I be the 1st one to slam Snell? haha..just kidding.

Snell has had 1 decent year and that was in 07 when he went 9-12 with a 3.76 era in the NL. With NL pitchers coming to the AL I always wonder about how they will transisition. COming from a small market how will he hold up in the AL? I know some of you are sold on the idea that Cano is a stud, but if I can't get anything better than a pitcher with a career era of 4.67 in the NL then I will pass and hold on to Cano.

As for Montero he's a highly regarded prospect who everyone in the Yanks farm raves about. As a 18 yr old catcher in A ball he hit .326 w 17 hrs, 87 rbis, and a .376 obp. With Tabata already traded he's probably the most highly regarded position player next to Austin Jackson. I think they'll want to hold on to him at all costs rather than trade him for a #3 or #4 starter. Those type of pitchers can be bought and paid for via FA.

The Yanks probably have more pitching prospects than they do position prospects.

He is a dud hes inconsistant and he doesnt hustle benched twice for the same thing in a 48hr span give me a break that kind of stuff is contagious and we dont need it in the clubhouse he is replaceable and he will be traded so start getting used to it.

Turnkey

Yeah thats what pisses me off about Cano. He needs to get slapped around a bit and put into place. Larry Bowa was doing that while with NY.

The third base coach right now for the Yankees is mad dumb. He sent are ace pitcher rounding third in a 5-0 game with 0 outs and the Yankees still threatening to score. That must be the stupidest move I've seen

Better sign out Mr. Nowitall im sure will be on soon to throw one of his tantrums.

Mymrbig - You can't really drop Pavano's name as a "lesson to be learned".. he was a highly sought after free agent coming off of a great year that easily could've been a 1 or 2 starter for a lot of teams. He got hurt A LOT.. who could've seen that?

Tell me.. everyone always brings up Carl Pavano; but everyone seems to forget Matt Clement... Please someone explain the difference between pavano's tenure in NY and Matt's in Boston?

Those things happen.. all the time.

Kei Igawa was projected as a back of the end starter, but just (to his own admission) never adjusted to life in the U.S... I think if he pitches to the same hitters in Japan; it's a different result. Unhappy players don't perform.

Jaret Wright actually didn't have a bad year in 2006... 2005 he was hurt (only made 13 appearances). But in 2006 he had a line like this: 27 starts, 140.1 innings, 4.49 ERA, 10HR, 5.39 K per 9, BAA .283, 1.52 WHIP

That's really not that bad for a backend starter...

Turnkey. He wasn't benched twice he was benched once with a 2 game penalty. It's not like he didn't hustle 2 days in a row. Look I'm not saying the guy is perfect. WHat I am saying is that he's valauble and instead of trading him we need to work with him and see if he responds. if he doesn't then he'll get what's coming to him. But if you think he's the reason the team struggled than you are naive and don't really understand where the teams real problems lie.

Purple.. niether were suppose to be ace's...

the 2005 Yankee starting 5 were: Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, Mussina, Kevin Brown, Wang... he isn't the ace of that starting 5 if all were healthy... they were looking at him as a 2,3,4...

Pavano had a serious of issues.. I don't think he was a "rich baby"... Go look at his injuries.. with the exception of the "injured buttocks" which is still a tough injury to pitch with (and if you don't think so you know absolutly nothing about pitching) was a true injury...

If you look at the 05' Sox starting 5/6... Tim Wakefield, Bronson Arroyo, Matt Clement, David wells, wade miller, schilling

who was suppose to be the biggest ace there? Schilling made 11 starts that year...

as far as the contracts.. pavano signed 4/39.95, or 9.98m per year... Clement made avg of 8.6 mill a year for the 3 years he was with boston... (i couldn't find his contract, only his salary for those 3 years)...

So please tell me what is the difference between a contract for a player making 1.3 million dollar more per year that have not lived up to expectations? and clement also had to have major surgery..

You cant fault either team.. both guys had great years and should've been able to be a great addition to the club... but neither were signed to be an "ace" - both teams had their ace...

I was just using Pavano, Wright, and Igawa as Yankee examples of a much more widespread problem. Better examples are guys like Miguel Batista, Jarrod Washburn, Kyle Lohse (as of last week), Jason Marquis, etc. Every now and then one of them works out, but it just isn't a good gamble. If that is the kind of pitcher a team feels like it needs, then better to trade for them while they are still cost-controlled and in their peak.

I should re-state. I don't think the Yankees should or would trade Snell for Cano. But I don't think the Pirates should give up Snell for much less than Cano. I think Yankee fans are selling Snell a little short. He has two plus pitches, but his lack of reliable changeup has always held him back against lefties. He owns righties. I agree that pitching in the big city might be a problem for him though.

Garland and Burnett should be added to the rotation along with Wang as 1,2,3 in some order. C.C.'s big-game problems, whether real or imagined, would be as big a distraction as A-Rod's. Garland and Burnett have both World Series Championships, and Garland has been very consistent (and good), while Burnett is nasty if he stays healthy (which I admit is a gamble, but a high-high-high-reward gamble). Fill in the 4,5 spots with Mussina, Pettitte, Hughes, or Kennedy, depending which of the vets comes back. I say welcome either or both of them back, and if neither comes back, add another free agent, like Dempster or Lowe or a lower impact guy. If only of the 2 (Mussina, Pettitte) comes back, count on Hughes and Kennedy to compete for one spot. Joba is a wild card because they can't go wrong with him in the rotation or bullpen.

not for nothin but The Pirates aren't taking on Cano's 30 million dollar contract, if the Yanks want McClouth it's gonna cost them some chips. that means dipping into Cashmans stash of young pitchers.