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« A's To Talk Contract With Giambi Soon | Main | D'Backs Rumors: Clark, Montero, Snyder »
Jays Listening On Wells
Jon Heyman has heard that the Blue Jays "have fielded a few trade inquiries" about Vernon Wells, though they are not shopping him. Wells has six years and over $100MM remaining on his contract.
Because of the Jays' financial constraints, they could consider trading Wells or closer B.J. Ryan for the right package. Trading the center fielder would likely take a lot of creativity on the part of Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi given the amount the club owes Wells.
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Who would want him I wouldn't want my favorite team to get him and they need a cf. Unless they jays paid 70 million of the his contract.
Him equals wells not Ryan
Posted by: mynameborat | December 20, 2008 at 09:06 AM
what about the yankees they need another big contact but no 1 trades money to the yanks just ask the brewers
how seroiusly what about the braves theey have money to spend they have farm depth they could a big righty bat behind chipper and mccain
Posted by: nymets44 | December 20, 2008 at 09:08 AM
Good luck with that...maybe for Michael Young?
Posted by: viktor06 | December 20, 2008 at 09:11 AM
Who would pays wells 100 million he isn't worth the money!
Posted by: mynameborat | December 20, 2008 at 09:17 AM
As a Braves fan he makes sense at first glance. However, Wren has said he doesn't want a long term commitment to an outfielder to block any of Heyward, Schafer, Hernandez. Not to mention they still consider Francouer part of our future.
Posted by: tsweet9000 | December 20, 2008 at 09:24 AM
Braves wouldn't want him. We need a stopgap OFer not a six year contract. Schafer is ready for CF this year and Gorkys, Heyward, or Cody Johnson should be ready if not by '10 then more than ready by '11. Unless they gave him to us for a few fringe prospects as a salary dump he is not coming to ATL.
Posted by: bbxxj | December 20, 2008 at 09:29 AM
Okay. This is a trade scenario I've brought up numerous times over the past few months, and continually believe that it would be beneficial to both sides.
Vernon Wells (6/100 left on contract) to the Cubs in exchange for Alfonso Soriano (6/106 left on contract), Felix Pie, and Kevin Hart.
Both teams swap contracts that they don't particularly want, and it fills an interesting need for both teams.
The Cubs land Wells to take over in center field full time. He gives them a solid all around bat as well as plus defense in a key position. The Cubs also get rid of Soriano's contract, ridding themselves of his defensive issues, inconsistency and need to leadoff to hit well. They can easily afford to include Pie in the deal, considering Wells would become the long term CF, and Gathright is there anyways.
The Blue Jays land Soriano to take over full time in left field. They can take one of those routes:
1. Move Rios to center, and Snider to right, and put Soriano in left.
2. Leave Rios and Snider in RF/LF, play Pie in CF, and play Snider and Lind at 1B and DH.
Either way, the Blue Jays add a dynamic, powerful hitter that has big upside, and is more likely to hit through the duration of his contract.
The Blue Jays get the power bat they want, and the Cubs get the improved defense and everyday CF they've wanted since Patterson and Pie failed.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 09:48 AM
Okay. This is a trade scenario I've brought up numerous times over the past few months, and continually believe that it would be beneficial to both sides.
Vernon Wells (6/100 left on contract) to the Cubs in exchange for Alfonso Soriano (6/106 left on contract), Felix Pie, and Kevin Hart.
Both teams swap contracts that they don't particularly want, and it fills an interesting need for both teams.
The Cubs land Wells to take over in center field full time. He gives them a solid all around bat as well as plus defense in a key position. The Cubs also get rid of Soriano's contract, ridding themselves of his defensive issues, inconsistency and need to leadoff to hit well. They can easily afford to include Pie in the deal, considering Wells would become the long term CF, and Gathright is there anyways.
The Blue Jays land Soriano to take over full time in left field. They can take one of those routes:
1. Move Rios to center, and Snider to right, and put Soriano in left.
2. Leave Rios and Snider in RF/LF, play Pie in CF, and play Snider and Lind at 1B and DH.
Either way, the Blue Jays add a dynamic, powerful hitter that has big upside, and is more likely to hit through the duration of his contract.
The Blue Jays get the power bat they want, and the Cubs get the improved defense and everyday CF they've wanted since Patterson and Pie failed.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 09:48 AM
Sorry. Typekey is a joke and drags down the quality of this whole site.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 09:49 AM
Its an interesting idea, but the Blue Jays add payroll instead of shedding it. I also can't imagine why you think Soriano is more likely to hit through his age 38 season than Wells is to hit through his age 35 season. As a note, they posted the exact same OPS+ (121) last season while playing essentially the same number of games (109 v. 108).
That's a deal the Cubs would jump all over, but I just don't see how it makes sense for the Blue Jays. Considering that its the Jays fielding calls on Wells, I really think the Cubs would have to do better than that to convince them to make a move.
Posted by: nixa37 | December 20, 2008 at 10:00 AM
nixa37-
The age thing is an issue, but it's pretty clear that Soriano is a superior hitter to Wells, even if slightly.
Soriano has posted OPS+'s of 135, 123 and 121 the past three years, and Wells has posted OPS+'s of 129, 85, and 121. Soriano is also faster and better on the basepaths, so overall he's a more productive offensive player.
Now, he's obviously going to decline a good deal by the end of his contract, which is why I want the Cubs to move him so bad. But I would expect a lot of that decline to be in the field, and in his speed, rather than his hitting. He'll surely lose some bat speed, but not enough to ruin him. He'll probably need to DH eventually though.
As for Wells, obviously the whole good defense in center thing blows Soriano away, and likely makes Wells the better player.
Considering the Blue Jays would be taking on an extra $6M in salary over the next six seasons, and a massive amount of salary in 2009, the Cubs would definitely have to include more than Pie and Hart, after further review.
I see two options:
Wells and Overbay (2/14 left) for Soriano, Pie, Hart and a prospect.
Wells and Ryan (2/20 left) for Soriano, Gregg, Pie, Hart and a prospect.
Either way, the Blue Jays get to shed Wells and an additional bad contract.
If the Jays include Ryan, he becomes our set up man, and we send Gregg to Toronto, who's cheaper and a free agent after 2009, to replace him.
In the second
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 10:15 AM
Random question: when the Blue Jays offer contracts to players, is it in Canadian dollars or in American dollars?
Posted by: Ksy92003 | December 20, 2008 at 10:17 AM
Scribbletone - As much as I would love to get rid of Soriano and pick up Wells, I dont think Hendry would go for it.
Posted by: Y2K_Apocalypse | December 20, 2008 at 10:29 AM
"I see two options:
Wells and Overbay (2/14 left) for Soriano, Pie, Hart and a prospect.
Wells and Ryan (2/20 left) for Soriano, Gregg, Pie, Hart and a prospect."
Sorry, but I don't see the Cubs ridding themselves of Soriano any time soon. He's too valuable of a leadoff hitter.
Posted by: Ksy92003 | December 20, 2008 at 10:30 AM
The differences between Wells and Soriano offensively are more than made up by Wells' defense. You're ridding yourself of poor defense in left and adding plus defense in center, with a small decrease in offensive production.
I have zero problem with that, and in fact, would love it.
Thinking about a 37 year old Soriano hopping around Wrigley , making terrible reads, and no longer being able to make up for them with athleticism, makes me shudder a bit.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 10:34 AM
"Random question: when the Blue Jays offer contracts to players, is it in Canadian dollars or in American dollars?"
American. Which is why the exchange rate hurts them.
Posted by: melonis rex | December 20, 2008 at 10:35 AM
i'd be willing to do this as well, as a cubs fan, but i doubt the cubs would. as with every other contract at wrigley field, there's a NTC to factor in. but, let's leave that out for a second. i just don't see the cubs really trying to shed that contract. getting soriano was a really big deal for the organization, not just financially, but also in terms of making a statement. after the trainwreck 2006 season, hendry was told to spend his way out of having a crappy team, and he did that. i hate having that huge albatross of a contract on the books as well, but it's not like soriano's completely useless. his defense is already a liability, it really can't get much worse IMO. the cubs were making sort of a statement with the soriano deal, and i don't see them trying to move it. it's an organization that doesn't admit to mistakes easily (i.e. sticking with wood and prior for so long) and moving soriano, i feel, would seem like admitting a mistake. he is the centerpiece of the cubs being real players on the FA market, when they haven't before. again, this is all just my opinion, and i would absolutely entertain the idea, i just don't see the cubs doing it. not to mention, lou loves him.
Posted by: 100backeduptrucks | December 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM
scribbletone
Swap one bad contract for another, brilliant. I think that defeats the whole purpose of dealing Wells...
Posted by: juiced | December 20, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Alfonso Soriano
Ronny Cedeno
For
Vernon Wells
Minor Leaguer
Posted by: BLEEDINGCUBBIEBLUE | December 20, 2008 at 11:54 AM
wells for soriano doesn't make sense for either team for a variety of reasons. First off the whole essence of giving up wells is to shed contract. So why would the jays do the trade. Also why would the jays want an incosientently bad hitter because he can field giving up one of there best hitters in the process.
Posted by: mynameborat | December 20, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Also why would the cubs not jays in the third line sorry typo.
Posted by: mynameborat | December 20, 2008 at 11:57 AM
I doubt the Jays could get Soriano for Wells, especially if they asked the Cubs to take on Overybay's contract.
The Cubs don't need Overbay and while Wells and Soriano were both very good when they played last year, Soriano's can do more at the plate.
Posted by: Ben Nicholson-Smith | December 20, 2008 at 11:59 AM
But as a Jays fan I say bring it on!
Posted by: Ben Nicholson-Smith | December 20, 2008 at 11:59 AM
I think the real move made isn't Wells but BJ Ryan. To whom, maybe the Dodgers or the Brewers?
Posted by: iowacubs | December 20, 2008 at 12:19 PM
ive been thinking of something for awhile now. in maybe a 3 team trade. the Jays could send Wells to the Yankees. they have been looking for someone for CF. the Yankees have apparently been willing to trade Robinson Cano, but the Jays dont need someone for 2B. so instead Cano and someone else could go to a 3rd team that could send something to Toronto. question is who is the 3rd team and who would they send to Toronto.
what teams need a 2B like Cano? and have the players the Jays would want.
the Jays right now need pitching for 2009 atleast. they currently have in the rotation Halladay/Litsch/not much else. McGowan wont be back until mid season and Marcum is out all season.
the Jays could also use someone for SS, and maybe another OF/DH.
Posted by: SpecialFNK | December 20, 2008 at 12:23 PM
The Blue Jays were pretty sad in the power department last year and Wells with 20 HR's was actually the team leader in that department.
I don't see how the Jays can trade him unless they are going to get power production someplace else in return.
Perhaps if they could find someone willing to eat Wells contract it would give the Jays enough cash to sign a power hitting RF for less and then Rios can slide to CF but unless they get a power bat in return they would have an incredibly anemic lineup; especially considering the pitching staffs of the Sox/Yanks/Rays.
I feel bad for Halladay every year and if they dump Wells for $$ purposes and don't replace his power I could see Halladay ending up with a losing record even with a sub 3.00 ERA.
Posted by: KangarooBoxer26 | December 20, 2008 at 12:36 PM
special - i doubt the blue jays would trade wells within the division. but let's say they would..
the yankees wouldn't do that trade because it just fills one need and creates another. if the jays would take a pitching package, the yankees are definitely a ft for wells
Posted by: i_spit_hot_fire | December 20, 2008 at 12:43 PM
a fit*
Posted by: i_spit_hot_fire | December 20, 2008 at 12:43 PM
How about wells to the dodgers for a bad prospect and they sign manny to a 4/100 deal. Only the dodgers wouldn't do that
Posted by: mynameborat | December 20, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Hot fire
Why would the yanks do that
They can sign someone better and not have to give up prospects.
Posted by: mynameborat | December 20, 2008 at 12:59 PM
"The Cubs don't need Overbay and while Wells and Soriano were both very good when they played last year, Soriano's can do more at the plate."
Right.
But Wells is a plus defensive center fielder, and Soriano is a below average defensive left fielder.
Considering that Wells is not only a CF but a good one, while Soriano is a bad LF, that makes Wells' offensive performance far more impressive.
Getting big numbers from left field isn't hard, getting them from center can be.
And I know that Overbay would have no use to the Cubs, it's just the fact that the Blue Jays probably wouldn't deal Wells for Soriano without getting rid of another contract as well.
AND, for all those people who posted that the Jays wouldn't do this deal because it wouldn't shed them of Wells' contract, do you really think any team would take on that contract without giving back a nearly as brutal one?
If you go through nearly all of the huge money deals that could be swapped with Vernon Wells, I think Soriano and the Cubs make the most sense.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 01:01 PM
borat - i dunno who you mean. there are no quality cf-ers available in the foreseeable future. if the yankees can make this happen, it'd be a really good acquisition. and given that it's a salary dump they could probably get him for not that much
again, this is assuming the blue jays would be willing to trade with a division rival...
Posted by: i_spit_hot_fire | December 20, 2008 at 01:43 PM
scribble - the blue jays are trying to shed payroll.. that is the idea. taking on another contract would be totally counterproductive
Posted by: i_spit_hot_fire | December 20, 2008 at 01:44 PM
The amount of money the Jays would eat of the contract would be the most important piece of any deal.
I don't think any team gives up prospects for Wells and has to pay him 100M.
An equal salary dump as scribbletone suggested might work, but the Jays would have to make sure they get some important pitching pieces as well to restock their system.
Posted by: carolina03 | December 20, 2008 at 02:49 PM
Scribble, you usually know what you are talking about, but not today.
First of all, Vernon's contract is not remotely brutal. It is market value for top defensive CFs - have a look at what Hunter and Beltran got, and then think about what Rowand makes. Vernon's contract was pretty much fair market value, and likely will continue to be that way unless the economy really gets significantly worse and salaries don't see a rise over the next few years. (Don't think this means it was a good signing by the Jays - it wasn't. Doesn't make the contract brutal.)
Secondly, Soriano makes 6m more than Vernon this year. What part of - the Jays are looking to cut payroll - do you not understand?
And your 3 year comparison of OPS+ is ridiculous - first of all, Vernon's shoulder was torn the whole 2007. Secondly, one plays LF, a power position, while the other plays CF. Comparing their offensive numbers is folly - Soriano SHOULD be the better hitter. And there's no guarantee that he would be if he was in the AL East facing Bos NYY and TB as opposed to the abhorrent starting pitching across the NL Central.
Posted by: 92-93 | December 20, 2008 at 02:49 PM
i read somewhere that he has a no trade clause so wouldnt that mean whichever team wanted him would have to go through the whole Jake Peavy scenario?
Posted by: drumzalicious | December 20, 2008 at 02:51 PM
I don't think any team gives up prospects for Wells and has to pay him 100M.
the yankees would take him in a heartbeat
Posted by: i_spit_hot_fire | December 20, 2008 at 02:55 PM
As much as I'd love the Jays to get rid of Wells' contract, I do not see the point of trading him if the Jays have to eat salary and get nothing of significance in return. There simply isn't a point when one looks at what Tiexiera and Manny will command...and we're talking about a former gold glove CF and even though his defense isn't elite anymore, GMs clearly care A LOT about name value.
Soriano is a worse contract than Wells so he makes ZERO sense for the Jays and I doubt he is traded to the Yankees either. I could see the Dodgers being a fit since they were interested in him a couple of years ago. If Wells has one of his 30/100/.300 years in 2009 the 5/107 remaining on his contract will suddenly look like a decent deal. That is when the Jays should consider trading Wells, unless someone takes his entire contract on.
Posted by: Jays2010 | December 20, 2008 at 03:26 PM
If you can trade Wells, I'd blow up the team. The only reason I was always saying rebuilding was not a likely option was because I assumed trading Wells wasn't really a option.
However if you could deal Wells, Halladay, BJ Ryan, Scott Downs. Also if you could actually get something for Overbay or Rolen. Halladay alone will get you a large hall, even with much lesser returns after that you'd have a bright future.
Posted by: Devmac | December 20, 2008 at 03:35 PM
92-93,
I clearly said that Wells was the better player.
That's why the Cubs would also take on Ryan/Overbay in addition to Wells, while also throwing in multiple young players.
Soriano makes less per year from 2010 through the end of the contract.
I just don't see how they move Wells without taking on a similar contract, although that very well mean that they should just keep him.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 04:11 PM
"I just don't see how they move Wells without taking on a similar contract, although that very well mean that they should just keep him."
I could see some type of Wells for A Jones or Pierre + prospects swap. I simply don't think that the Jays should have to take a similar contract back, certainly not for an inferior player like Soriano. This is more of a cub fans wet dream over reality...
Posted by: Jays2010 | December 20, 2008 at 04:26 PM
I agree Scribble. The only teams that really could take on as big a contract as Wells without giving up a contract with similar values are the Yankees and the Red Sox. They might want to shed payroll but in order to do so, they will have to find a team that will either: accept his large contract but they won't recieve an equal gain, OR they can take on another large contract that might be a little more but also recieve prospects with(the above mentioned trade). Believe me, I understand that they want to shed payroll, but you can't just dump a player like Wells for nothing and that is essentially what they would be doing if they didn't get a player like Soriano back. Wells isn't going anywhere.
Posted by: VerizonWireless | December 20, 2008 at 04:31 PM
I just don't see how they move Wells without taking on a similar contract, although that very well mean that they should just keep him.
Posted by: scribbletone | December 20, 2008 at 04:11 PM
---
I don't understand why you aren't getting this. The ONLY reason the Jays move Wells is to get rid of his contract. Why on earth would they move him for any other reason?
Imo, the only way he gets moved if a good 1/3 of his contract gets eaten, if that's even possible.
Posted by: juiced | December 20, 2008 at 06:19 PM
I wonder if the Braves would trade for him.
If they were to eat about 30 Million of his contract basically making him a 15 mil a year person from 2010-2014 it would be kind of affordable.
I actually wouldnt lose any sleep over giving them Jordan Shafer in the deal. that way if he opts out in 2011 we still have Gorkys in the wings.
The only problem of course comes from the fact that he has a NTC
but even still that would be a good middle line up of chipper, wells, then mccann.
if only they were rebuilding and getting rid of Halladay
Posted by: drumzalicious | December 20, 2008 at 07:08 PM
the Jays want to trade Wells because of his contract. right now its managable at $10 MIL for 2009 ($1.5 MIL + $8.5 MIL signing bonus). but his future contract numbers are..
2010- $21 MIL ($12.5 +$8.5 MIL signing bonus)
2011- $23 MIL
2012- $21 MIL
2013- $21 MIL
2014- $21 MIL
he also has an opt out clause after 2011.
according to mlbcontracts.blogspot.com Wells does have a full no trade clause.
i dont think the Jays want to trade him for just prospects. they probually would want someone able to help right now, ar atleast by 2010. Halalday is signed through the end of the 2010 season. Marcum will be back in 2010, and McGowan will be back sometime in 2009. im assuming the Jays would like to be able to contend within a short time period.
Posted by: SpecialFNK | December 20, 2008 at 09:11 PM
I'm blatantly ripping off Will Rain of The Southpaw here (except I'm attributing him so it's all good), but if Rosenthal was right about the Cards offering Ankiel for Putz, and now they're backing off from Fuentes, would they consider Ankiel for BJ Ryan? Jays shed $10MM a year for the next two years, maybe use it to sign a pitcher (I personally like Randy Johnson), and get the bat they need to prevent a 21 year old from having to be the savior of the offense.
Posted by: Torgen | December 21, 2008 at 01:07 AM
Yea i kinda figured they would want to compete soon thats why i said give up Shafer in a package for him.
What are their other needs? if they were to give up Halladay what kind of package are we looking at?
i know it starts with pitching, but what other positions are they needing
Posted by: drumzalicious | December 21, 2008 at 02:16 AM
I'll just clear a few things up for some people who don't know what they are taking about:
Why would the Jays want relievers from a team? They have far and away the best bullpen in the league and have to clear like 4 spots.
Why would the Jays overpay for young pitching? There aren't 3 teams in the league with better or more young pitching.
Why would the Jays take Soriano in return for Wells? That just adds salary and they don't even need a left fielder.
Lyle Overbay and BJ Ryan aren't salary dumps in a trade, they both should have solid value. Overbay hits awell above average OPS for 1B and is the best fielding 1B in the AL all at a fairly low salary. BJ Ryan has a better ERA and SV% than both Fuentes and K-Rod over their past 4 seasons and will be paid much less.
The idea of the Jays even fielding offers on Halladay is laughable.
Shortstop is the only weak position on the roster with the best and second best prospects in the league at LF and C respectively almost ready to go. There would have to be a young shorstop like Yunel Escobar or something in any deal.
Posted by: Grant77 | December 21, 2008 at 03:11 AM
trading Halladay is not laughable, its something that should be considered.
he has 2 years left on his contract at $14.25 MIL in 09 and $15.75 MIL in 2010.
he is currently 31 years old, turning 32 in May 2009. that means at the end of his current contract in 2 years he will be 33, turning 34 the following May 2011. he is right now one of the best pitchers in all of baseball. once this contract is up, how much do people think he is going to sign for? im guessing he is going to want atleast $20 MIL a season if not more. you have to figure there are going to be high market teams salavating at the thought of being able to throw money at him. he has allready signed an extension with Toronto in 06 for less than he could ahve gotten elsewhere, i dont expect him to do that again.
now even if the Jays could afford $20+ a season for Halladay, is that worth it? for a pitcher who would be entering his age 34 season and likely not only wanting $20+ MIL a season but wanting that each season for what atleast 5 seasons. do you think tis wise for the Jays to be paying Halladay $20+ MIL a season for ages 34-38 seasons? i dont think so. i dont think hes just going to fall off and suck, but i wouldnt expect him to continue to be the way he has been through his mid to late 30's.. and even if one thinks he could still be effective a team like Toronto cant afford to be paying that much money to one pitcher. by 2011 and beyond the Jays are going to have a bunch of other good young pitchers, and Halladay wont be "as" needed as he has been in recent time.
THAT is why you should be entertaining serious considerations of trading him, because the package you could get for him right now could be better than any package any other SP has gotten before. look at the season Halladay is coming off of, 20-11, 2.78 ERA, 1.05 WHIP, 206 K in 246 IP. if the Jays had a beter offence, he could have had closer to 25+ wins.
hes durable, pitching over atleast 220 IP on the last 3 seasons.
NOW is probually the best time to trade him, hes more valuable right now than he ever will be in the future. he is a true ace, and only making $14.25 & $15.75 in each of the next 2 seasons.
its not like the Jays are going to be very competetive in 2009, so in a package for Halladay you could get multiple players who are now major league ready who by 2010 are able to help put up significant numbers.
Posted by: SpecialFNK | December 21, 2008 at 11:51 AM
The fact that the Pads couldn't get value for Peavy suggests that the Jays will have trouble getting value for Halladay.
Posted by: Torgen | December 21, 2008 at 09:44 PM