Discussion: What Should The Indians Do?

they should probably deal Lee. Anyone who misses on Halladay may look for Lee. But that will only work if they make a decision on Halladay at least a few days before the deadline..

Of course you shop them, but you better drive a crazy hard bargain, because this team SHOULD be tremendously better this year than they are, and can compete next season.

And before anyone says "Carlos Santana", he's not exactly destroying AA pitching, so saying trade him and bring up Santana isn't exactly a win next year type of move, and Shoppach has been terrible this season.

Santana isnt going to be ready next yr. He'll be up end of next yr(if lucky) or start of 2011

i've got an idea. cliff lee for jeff weaver. straight up. ha!

seriously though, put Lee on the market to lower the asking price for Halladay and create some competition. they might be able to get something decent back that way.

It should also be noted that if V-Mart is traded, his 2009 salary becomes $6.2M and the 2010 option increases to $7.5M, not to mention incentives that could cause it to climb higher (Cot's Baseball contracts). Cliff Lee's 2010 option already increased to $9M when he won the CY Young last year.
The Indians should at least move one of V-Mart or Lee and possibly Rafael Betancourt (2010 club option/$5.4M) or Kerry Wood (2010/$10.5M). If trading two or three players can yield a large return, the trigger should be pulled. Find a team that is deep in prospects and are facing steep competition for a playoff spot (i.e. Rangers, Giants).

"V-Mart is traded, his 2009 salary becomes $6.2M and the 2010 option increases to $7.5M, not to mention incentives that could cause it to climb higher"

If it was going from 15M to 20M that would be one things... but it's jumping 500k, practically pennies to most teams.

TimmaH I have to say after only a few rough outings Lee has been pretty damn good. No not last years level but Halladay isn't even pitching at the level Lee was pitching last year.

Lee is also a cheaper option than Halladay which is very important to teams these days.
Lee is going to command a top prospect from anyteam that gets lee. So it would take someone like Buckholz, Bumgarner, Smoak, Gamel, Holland type player to get him.

They should move both of them! Shoppach and Santana can be very productive catching. The Indians are set in the outfield with Choo, Sizemore, Laporta, Brantley,Crowe and Francisco. Moving Francisco might be smart as well. Hafner is hitting and will DH. If he is hurt Garko can fill in. Cabrera should stick at short. They have a couple decent bullpen arms already. If the Red Sox would jump at Martineez for Bucholtz and Delcarlmen I would take that in a second. Lee could bring back one big prospect and a couple solid guys. I'd move Caroll, Betancourt and wood if I could. The nucleus is there for a very solid team. They need big time pitchers and the only way they'll get them is to move the two bi guys. A true 1b would be nice as well. The Indians can hold onto these guys and hope the other four starters come around or they can face the truth.

They need to keep there core guys together offensively, core being Sizemore, Hafner, Martinez, and Cabrera. Peralta, Garko, Shoppach, and Lee could bring a really good haul for them to build for the future.

why not deal these guys (lee & v-mart) at or near their peak while they still have more than a few months left on their contracts? if you're not contending this year and trying to reduce payroll for next near, take what you can get while the getting is good.

I'm not talking about 2010 I'm talking about 2011! This will take a couple years, but it's better than never. I also don't think we can judge Laporta on a whole 42 Abs!!!!! Shopach is struggling but his numbers for 09 are almost identical to 07 besides batting average. That's more bad luck than anything. With more PT in 08 he put up a pretty great line of .261/.348/.517. I also think he is a better receiver than Martinez as well.

look, Halladay isnt getting young players, so there is no way in HELL that they will get young players. Sorry, none are better than Halladay

As much as I hate the Giants and it pains me to say it, Sanchez deserves the perfect game. The error isn't his fault at all.

Tonight's earlier article and this one should be prefaced with the following; they are based off a Paul Hoynes article. An article in which Hoynes (arguably the worst beat writer ever, most players won't interview with him) speculates that the Indians are slashing payroll next because they are shopping potential free agents or people who are making a good chunk of change but not performing to snuff. Chances are unless the Indians are blown away Lee and Martinez stay. There is no way they trade Lee for anything less than top tier major league ready pitching prospects. Not someone who may need some seasoning but someone who can be in the rotation the moment they arrive in Cleveland. Outside of Bucholz I can't really think of anyone who fits that bill. Now as for Betantcourt, Wood, Pavano, Shoppach, Garko, and Francisco...they could be moved easily for pitching help in any form, but more so major league ready. Wood has been a bust for the money, Betancourt isn't really worth his option, Shoppach is easily replaced by Toregas or anyone else who can hit above .200 and not strike out 1/3 of the time, Garko is at a position that could be occupied by other people (LaPorta, Martinez), and Pavano will be a FA and probably won't re-sign. I'd actually like them to keep Francisco because as a 4th OF he can be a large asset. Can play all three positions, has some pop and some speed. But if someone is willing to give you what you need for him then he should be moved and give his platoon spot to Crowe or Brantley (though he looks to be the man in LF if LaPorta moves). The Indians have been saying for weeks that any trade will be made with intentions to be a competitive team next year, at no point have they said that the economy is going to force them to cut payroll. Even when they were rolling in 2007 attendance was terrible, you could walk up in late September and still get some of the best seats in the place. Chances are that if Wood is traded payroll will go down some, seeing as the 15 million they added this last off-season would be gone. But by no means does it mean the Indians are slashing payroll and dumping whatever they can.

If the Indians can get Smoak for Cliff Lee they should be all over it, even willing to pay his salary for this season to get the move done (could possibly sweeten the deal too). A future lineup with Choo, Sizemore, LaPorta, and Smoak is dangerous. Martinez should be aggressively shopped to boston for either buccholz or bowden + bard. If you can't get anything on par with that value you might be better off trying to sign him long term as a DH unless you think Hafner is the guy for the job

As a huge tribe fan i have to say that i view victor martinez and grady sizemore as the cornerstone of our franchise. If we move either one of them. we have no hope. Thats why i hope that V-Mart doesnt get traded. I believe he would resign with the tribe, and it would be foolish to trade him unless we got an amazing package in return.

"Chances are unless the Indians are blown away Lee and Martinez stay. There is no way they trade Lee for anything less than top tier major league ready pitching prospects. Not someone who may need some seasoning but someone who can be in the rotation the moment they arrive in Cleveland. Outside of Bucholz I can't really think of anyone who fits that bill."

I know the Texas pitching prospects aren't quite as ML ready as clay but Neftali Feliz and Derek Holland would still interest me if i were shapiro.

I for one have never been a fan of trading players mid season who are signed for more than the rest of the season. To maximize the time any GM has to gather different trade scenarios; if they decide to shop Lee and/or Vmart they should do it this offseason. I haven't looked at the newest elias rankings but VMart has to be type A, Lee may be A. You would have to get at least 2 highly touted prospects for each to even begin talking about a trade.

Wood and Hafners contracts are the ones that are a hinderance.

While I wondered why the Indians were so hyped i don't see how you can say they are in terrible shape. They have a nice core of young OF/1B guys and can add to the core with two trades (martinez and lee)

"
LaPorta has only got 42 at bats so far at the major league level this year, and usually did not play regularly. Are you seriously saying he is hype because of 42 at bats?!?

Santana has been going through a slump to get down to .266 but he is still raking AA pitching. He has a .394 OBP and .888 OPS. I agree he isn't ready for the majors yet but he has definitely been proving himself in the minors."

Ummm, no. But nice try. Maybe you should try and read it again.

Here I will try and simplify it for you.

Bringing up Santana to play C now would be idiotic. Bringing him up next year is even a stretch.

Seeing as I was addressing the fact that we have Santana supporters that believe V-Mart should be traded so that we can play Shoppach/Santana, I thought I'd comment on Santana hitting .260 in AA, and how bringing him up would be a mistake. I further explained that another extremely hyped Tribe player, Matt LaPorta (that's called a comparison for you), was hitting about .350 in a AAA and he struggled at the plate. This means that even top prospects struggle in the majors and are not always immediately ready.

Hopefully you can understand it now. Thanks.

As for Lee and Martinez.. I think that the issue boils down to two points:
1. Will you be able to retail either Lee or Martinez after their option years?
2. Will you be able to contend in '10 with Lee and Martinez.

As for Question 1., I think that recent history will clearly point you to "No" for both.

Question 2. is likely another emphatic "No." Unless Fausto, Westbrook and Hafner all bounce back-to-form, it would seem that the Indians will not be going anywhere next year.

IF Shapiro chooses to pull the trigger, I think he should find new homes for both Lee and Martinez (unless he is almost sure he can retain one of them once free agency comes around). It would seem that trading one would take you out of contention, so might as well trade both and maximize your gains.

You have Shoppach around to keep the position warm for Carlos Santana (hopefully), but the loss to the middle of the lineup and the clubhouse would be incredible.

The rotation is tattered and flimsy, so losing the ace would be a harsh blow.. Any deal for Victor or Lee would HAVE to be centered around upper-level starting pitching.

The rotation really is a mess.. Fausto got demoted to pitching batting practice to High School kids (hopefully his mechanics are fixed though). Pavano is likely gone at the end of the year. Not sure when Westbrook will be back, or how he will pitch when he does. Sowers is terribly inconsistent and it doesn't seem that he fits into our long-term plans anymore. Tomo Ohka is Tomo Ohka. Lewis and Reyes are both hurt at the moment. And on top of all of that, the Indians don't have one really good starting pitching prospect at AA or AAA other than Hector Rondon (unless you count Adam Miller or Chuck Lofgren......) This organization NEEDS starting pitching. If you can find suitable deals for both Lee and Martinez, it should be able to get you at least 2-3 guys who project to be top of the rotation starters and are nearly ready for the bigs.

I think everyone's thinking it, but nobody wants to say it. The best thing the Indians can do is package Sizemore and another expensive guy like Wood or Hafner to clear some cap. The other option is for them to try and get a blockbuster going with Sizemore at the center.

Yes, he's signed to a great contract for the team, but if you are going to rebuild now, there's no point to keep Grady. He's going to be tired of getting his $%*# kicked in every year and he's gone after this deal. If you do get the Indians as contender in the next three or four years, it will be too late to make him want to stay.

Also consider, Mauer and Morneau are young guys and even though everyone thinks Mauer is going to leave, I can't disagree more. He's rich well beyond his needs, he's playing on a contender every year in a winnable division (not like Baltimore and Toronto who can have great teams and still not do anything), it's his hometown team that he grew up watching, and he has a chance to get the big four motives of sports without leaving Minnesota: A championship, to have more money than you can spend in a lifetime (unless he's really bad with money or trusts the wrong people, call this the Dykstra clause), to play close to where you grew up, and to stay with the same team for your whole career.

Grady can see that he's not getting a championship in Cleveland and when he leaves as a Type A, than Cleveland will have two picks to show for it, OR they trade him now as he's starting to hit better and collect a group of young talent for him, maybe a couple high ceiling guys and a couple solid MLB prospects that are sure bets to get there, but might not have superstar abilities.

I think most important for everyto realize is how poorly the Indians are run. The players there have to be going crazy. Giving away a GG, All-Star 2B in Phillips. Trading away Gutierrez for a Cano type 2B on the high side, and a bullpen arm. Giving away DeRosa for junk, giving a long term deal to Pronk, not moving Martinez to permanent DH while Hafner has been on the DL to save Victor some wear-and-tear (yes he went to DH sometimes, but I mean permanently with an occasional start ever week or two behind the plate, with another start at 1B every week or so. DHing him for a year would have been like reseting his legs to the way they were 5 years before.

Dump the whole Indians team and you can't even build around Choo because he has to serve 2 years in the Korean military before 30 years old to keep his citizenship and he's not willing to lose his citizenship in Korea, so within the next two seasons he's going home for a couple years. Just let Choo be the center of a young lineup and when he goes to serve his two years, the rest of the young guys will be ready to carry the load. and I just can't see Choo having much value since whoever gets him will lose him to his military commitment very soon and that could throw off his career.

Trade Lee with Hafner to make the other team eat that bad contract. Then trade Sizemore with Wood so that someone will take on the Wood contract problem. Then you move Martinez for two good prospects and try to get two good prospects for both the other trades (Sizemore and Lee). Lastly, you trade Shoppach, Garko, and Pavano to a team like Florida that has need at a catcher/RH PH and a veteran starter. Yeah maybe you eat a little salary, but fair value might be Hermida, Bonifacio, and Carroll (with a couple low level prospects going back to Florida).

The team would be able to get all the young guys in there to grow together and without any stars on the team, they'll all be willing to stick around until they can contend every year. Basically Grady is going to walk, but Francisco would stay because he won't have the offers that Sizemore would have in FA.

Maybe a sizemore package can include a starting catcher and a backup who are both young, like Saltalamacchia, Teagarden, or Max Ramirez as part of a Cliff Lee trade. Then getting Adam Moore from Seattle as part of a Grady Sizemore package. Both catchers would be much younger and able to hold the positon until Santana arrived. Then just make sure the rest of the players are arms from Seattle and Texas (staying with the example).

Maybe a starting lineup of Jeremy Hermida (LF), Ben Francisco or Trevor Crowe (CF), and Shin-Soo Choo (RF) in the outfield. Peralta (1B), Barfield (2B), Cabrera (SS), Valbuena (3B), on the infield. Max Ramirez/Adam Moore (C) platooning at catcher. Laporta would be the 1B in NL parks and the DH in AL parks, with Peralta going across the diamond to 3B, Valbuena moving to 2B and Barfield going to the bench. The bench would be Bonifacio (IF), Crowe or Francisco (OF), Moore or Ramirez (C), and Brantley (OF), unless he pushes someone else out of the outfield and onto the bench.

A Sizemore trade could net a couple good arms like Phillippe Aumont, Nathan Adcock, Jacob Wild, Brett Lorin, Donald Hume, Justin Thomas, or Nick Hill. A couple from Texas or a top flight one would help get the Indians rebuild going strong. Maybe Holland, Ramirez, and Davis for Cliff Lee and Travis Hafner with Cleveland splitting the remainder on Lee's salary for this year and next, while paying 35% of the remaining on Hafner's contract.

Im sorry, but there is no way to get anywhere close to equal value for Sizemore. He signed a 6 yr deal in 06, and is signed through 2012. He is one of, if not the top CF in the game. He is one of the best 5 tool players in the game. What I really dont get is why Lee would get more than Sizemore. You suggested Holland+ for Hafner and Lee, but not top guys for Sizemore. Also, where would Hafner play in Tex with Smoak in the minors, with Blalock, and Davis at 1B/DH. Unless they deal at least 2 of them, Hafner cant be in Tex. Also, I dont think Texas is giving up their top prospects for anyone.

With Choo, that really sucks for Cleveland, only thing you can say.

I can almost guarentee that Hafner, Grady, and Choo wont be traded, but each for different reason. Hafner has no value, and would kill the value of Lee, so much that no one will take it. Grady is a great player, and the franchise face. Good contract as well. However, Id be a little worried with the injuries he has had, espically surgery after this yr. And Choo cant go anywhere cause of his commitment to S. Korea

Inidans most certainly don't need to rebuild, and definately shouldn't trade Grady Sizemore... thats just ridiculous.

1- Trade Lee. If Texas didn't have payroll issues, I'd target them specifically since they're the best equipped team to give up close to MLB ready arms (one of Feliz or Holland) , but I'm calling every contending team who might remotely need pitching. To me, Lee will easily, easily, command the bigger haul of the 2, and is more likely to command a near-MLB ready arm. But, as always, go for best value, but focus on guys who are in AA or higher (like LaPorta last year)

Avoid deals built around prospects who are probably ultimately moving to 1B/DH.

2- I want to keep V-Mart until Santana shows that he's ready. I want no reason to rush Santana up. If the team is not equipped to contend next year and/or Santana shows dominance, that's when you trade V-Mart.

3- Try to move guys like Pavano, Ben Francisco, Betancourt, et al for whatever you can get. Although I try to trade Pavano via waivers, since his peripherals are much better than his ERA, and a lot of GMs still don't understand that stuff (see: Dayton Moore, Omar Minaya).

Chris Perez is not junk, I think Cleveland won that trade easily.

Why do some of my posts on here just dissappear?

What the Indians should do is definitely move both Lee and Martinez, but for Lee especially they need to get back a FOR level starter. Now that could be someone who would spend the rest of the year in Columbus, but as troublesome as the Indians pitching has been this season the focus of any deal or deals needs to be young major league ready pitching.

And teams just don't usually trade players like that anymore.

(Unfortunately Martinez is probably gone by the time Santana shows he is ready - which is a shame as he is a perfect mentor for Santana.)

Move players like Caroll and Betancourt and Pavano for the best deals out there - there is no real reason to keep them around even though all 3 have their benefits to the team.

Wood would be a nice guy to trade if someone would take the salary - i don't know if the Indians should pay anything to get a better return on a deal for Wood.

I'm not sure about moving Garko mainly because i don't know if LaPorta is needed in LF or 1b (will Brantley be ready in 2010?). Even if LaPorta can be moved to 1b fulltime Garko could still come in handy as a 1n/dh type - so maybe only move him if someone is willing to overpay.

Focus should be young major league ready starters and relievers, another MIF prospect, and any non rule 5 talent at any position the Indians can get as a throw in.

It's going to mean "white flagging" 2010 as well, and i don't know if the Indians are willing to do that or not. So i don't expect all of these moves to be done (& one of Lee or Martinez will be dealt -not both of them).

BTW trading Sizemore is an idiotic suggestion - he is the face of the franchise. If the Indians were to trade him they might as well move the franchise because no one would go to the games at all.

"Iknowalilsomethingaboutsomething" actually doesn't know anything about anything. You typed up a novel and you try to sound smart, but you are dead wrong on a number of things.

1.) Trading Grady would be the worst idea ever. The Indians already have a hard time getting people to Progressive Field, do you think trading their most popular player is going to help attract fans? Let's not forget where the team's revenue comes from.

2.) Look at Brandon Phillips stats from 2002-2005 as a Cleveland Indian. He had a .206 batting average in 462 at-bats with only 6 homers. I think any team would have looked at him as a bust. It looks like an aweful move now, but consider the circumstances.

3.) The Indians did not "give away" DeRosa. They got a huge power arm in Chris Perez and let's not forget there is another PTBNL in the deal. Trading DeRosa now was a good idea since he's not part of the team's outlook going forward.

4.) Choo's military obligation could be waived by the Korean gov't because of his participation in the WBC. It's not a given that he's going to leave in a few years.

You basically want every good player on the Indians traded for prospects. This team has a good core and Shapiro has already said that he thinks we can contend next year. We score the third most runs in the AL, if we just had a reliable bullpen and maybe one more two more solid SP's, things would be a lot different right now.

What is their motivation to trade Cliff Lee (a front of the rotation starter) for another, less proven front of the rotation guy? Offer him a deal based around the Chris Carpenter deal, as I think they profile as very similar pitchers. He has the numbers, but not the stats, for a giant CC-esque deal.

As for V-Mart, he's the team's franchise player. Much more so than Grady. Their big problem is attendance...trade him and you lose a lot more fans.

The Tribe have been severely hampered by injuries this season...they will be back in contention next season, easily.

Listen I tought it was the end of the world whe guys like Thome / Belle / Colon / Omar all left but life went on and we have had some success.

The bottom line here is Cheer for the Team and NOT the name on the back of the Uniform.

If you do this a a fan of any small market team life will become less stressful for you.

Plus if you trade Lee and the 2010 Rotation looked something like this.

Westbrook / (????) / Carmona / Laffey / Huff and your # 5 guy out of the group of Rondon / Sowers / Lewis / Lofgren or a Free Agent # 5 guy at about 3 to 5 mil 1 year contract.

Now if you replace the #2 question mark guy with a talented top notch prospect like Buccholz / Hughes / Feliz / Holland / Bumgarner / Alderson type pitcher how can you as a fan say we have no shot to contend.

If you subtract Victor from the line-up with guys like Garko Shoppach and Carroll but you add guys like

LaPorta / Santana / Brantley / Barfield /

Marta as a bench guy who can play 3rd 1st and now the corner outfield every now and then.

We have seen that hafner is starting to dial it back in remember it took Giambi also about 2 years to get back on track now look at him.

So with all these thing said with the pitching and improving the overall defense of the team with those moves how can you say the team wouldn't be a better overall balanced contender with pitching and better defense in 2010.

The only lose on the defensive side may be Carroll over barfield with the glove slightly.

Racist logo?

Should we change the name too? We will be called the Navy Blue Sox with a sock on the hats.

I don't think trading Grady Sizemore has ever come across Mark Shapiro's mind at this point.. I just assume that it hasn't crossed any other GM's mind as well, because they know he is untouchable. One of the most exciting and talented outfielders in the game, under contract for another 3 and a half season. That is the kind of guy you build around.

Pavano is another good trade candidate.. He has actually impressed me this year and he has definitely been a serviceable starter. He is only guaranteed $1.5 million this year, but he has an insane amount of bonuses.

According to Cot's, here's how it looks:

# starts: $0.1M each for 18, 20, 22; $0.2M each for 24, 26, 28; $0.25M for 30; $0.3M for 32; $0.35M each for 33, 34; $0.4M for 35

# innings: $0.1M each for 130, 140, 150; $0.15M each for 160, 170; $0.2M for 180; $0.25M each for 190, 200, 210; $0.3M for 215; $0.4M for 225; $0.5M for 235

At this point, it would seem that Carl is going to make a decent amount of money this season. If the Indians can move him and avoid payment most of those, that would trim a few bucks on a guy who won't be around next year.

He has trade value, the deal will save money... but the problem is: "who the heck is going to take his spot in the rotation?" I don't think it even matters at this point, they just need a body out there.

Does anyone think that the Indians are going to win the World Series next year… anyone? How about compete? Any of you think they will have enough talent to overcome the Yankees, Red Sox, Tampa, or the Angels and then beat whoever wins NL pennant? No, and if anyone disagrees please tell me why the Indians have a better chance than those four teams and the NL pennant winner in 2010.

Next season the Indians will be better than this year and they have a chance to compete for the division title due to the weak AL central but they do NOT have enough to compete for championship.

1. The closer to free agency the lower their value is.
2. Any injury or prolonged slump could decrease their value further and
with pitchers and catchers these odds increase.
3. Prospects acquired in 2010 for them would be one year further away from
the majors, prolonging your rebuilding process.
4. If the Indians are within 5 games of first place in the central (very, very likely
considering the weak division) then they can’t trade them because it would be
viewed as giving up on the season.
5. Both players will receive contracts in the 15-20mil range and Cleveland will NOT
be able to afford that.
6. When they leave for free agency the type compensation has negatives.
A. Players drafted in 2011 will be between 18-21 years old whereas prospect
traded for now are between 19-23 and would be major league ready in 2011 but the compensation picks won’t be ready until 2014.
B. Milwaukee had two type A free agents leave last season (Sabathia and
and Sheets) but due to Sheets injury and the fact that the Yankees had
already signed a type A before the signed Sabathia, they were stuck with only one “sandwich pick” and a second rounder (which is less than the Indians got in LaPorta and Brantley) instead of two first rounders and two
sandwich picks which is still less than what the Indians could probably get now.
C. The Indians trade well but draft poor and should go with there strengths.

If I'm Mark Shapiro, I know that I have to field a competitive team in 2010, because if they suck, I'm gone. GM's only get one rebuild before fans (and ownership) lose patience.

That means I am trying like hell to keep both Lee (proven FOR starter), and Martinez (fan favorite and proven offensive producer).

I try to get the best talent I can for the guys who will not be back next year (Carroll, Pavano) or guys who may have trade value but are blocking high-ceiling talent (Garko, Francisco). I look mid-season for big-market teams in playoff races willing to overpay to fill a need.

I also recognize that I have lots of talent at all levels of my own system, and I go shopping in the off-season for guys who can help me in 2010. Maybe I get lucky and find a proven starter who is getting close to a serious payday, and a small-market team wants to avoid the commitment.

What am I looking for? Pitching, pitching, pitching. I think this team will need 3 very effective starting pitchers to seriously compete next year. It's possible that two of them are Jake Westbrook and Fausto Carmona, but I'm not going to bet my career on that.

Hey about getting guys off wavers that's smart. because teams give up on guys and lit them walk and if Cleveland would pay attention they could pick up so me great tallent.
Plus i know the Cubs got rid of Carmon pignatello[spelled his last name wrong sorry] and i really liked the way he pitched.

oops,

5) Can Hafner continue to improve, and get back to a .300 hitting 30-40 homer DH? Or will his shoulder injury linger?

If these questions have positive answers, they could easily hang with the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, or any other team in the league. But not without Martinez and Lee.

That's why I would see an offseason trade as being much more realistic than a deadline deal. They'll have a much better grasp on whether 2010 is a contending season, or a rebuilding one, at that point.

Look for plenty of minor moves, however, to make space for their youth. I would not be surprised to see Carrol, Garko, and Peralta all with other teams, within a couple weeks. Pavano and Betancourt as well. They should be able to get a couple quality arms, out of some of those names.