Roy Halladay Rumors: Thursday

IF......Halladay allows teams to work out an extension prior to the trade going down would this package seem fair?

Joba Chamberlain, Jesus Montero, Zack McAllister and Brett Gardner?

I have mixed feelings about trading Joba and Montero but Halladay along with CC, AJ, Pettite and Hughes could be magical.

If either NY or Boston are interested they could easily make a trade for Halliday work.Right now a 3 for 1 would work.Which 3 is the question.

It does make sense for Anthopoulos to act as if the Jays don't really have to trade Halladay so he doesn't get taken advantage of. But I definitely don't see him starting the season with the Jays. I think the Red Sox really have to make this the deal to compete with NY.

Normally, I would say wait unti he becomes a FA but I just can't see the Sox or Angels passing on him IF he's allowing teams to work an extension prior to the trade.

Posted by: YanksFanSince78 | November 12, 2009 at 11:59 AM

You have other guys available for 2011. Namely, Cliff Lee and Brandon Webb.

Why give up a bunch of young prospects when you can just wait another year. (Like signing CC after passing on Santana)

Is Roy Halladay worth that much more than Lee or Webb? Plus, the guy only plays once every 5 days.

Halladay is also the oldest of the aforementioned starters.

i hope the Jays are smart enough to not be interested in Joba IF they want to deal with the Yankees. Joba is overrated! hes not a good long term starter. IF the Jays want to deal with the Yankees i could hope Hughes is someone they are interested in, NOT Joba.

i hope the Jays are smart enough to NOT trade with the Yankees! the Yankees will be mentioned, but hopefully just to drive up the price from other teams.

i feel like whatever trade the Jays do make they are going to get hosed!

Halladay only willing to waive his NTC for an extension & only to an east coast team drives down his price and limits the teams that Jays can work with.

i was hoping something would happen with the Dodgers.

Yanks Fan:

I agree.

I have no problem making Joba the centerpiece of a Halladay Trade. (However, I would hold off on including Montero).

We NEED one additional solid SP in our rotation to allow everything else to fall into place for our entire Pitching Staff in 2010:

SP # 1 = CC
SP # 2 = Halladay
SP # 3 = AJ
SP # 4 = Pettite
SP # 5 = Hughes (thru July /135 Innings - then a RP)
Wang (from July - Sept).

Closer = Mariano
8th Inning Set Up = Robertson
Lefty Specialist = Marte

Long Men / Spot Starters = Aceves / Gaudin / Mitre / Kennedy
LH RP's = Coke/Dunn/DeLaRosa
RH RP's = Melancon/Bruney/Garcia

Then, in 2011, if Andy retires, Wang could move up to SP # 4 and Hughes would be ready to give you ~190 Innings as SP # 5

ALL of this could fall into place if the Yankees acquire Roy Halladay.

i'd rather save the prospects (I wouldn't mind Montero as the permanent DH when he gets here if his power is for real) than go after Halladay. Sign a cheap starter, like a Jon Garland, or let Gaudin start (did anyone forget how great he was for us when he came over after improving his slider?) along with Hughes. Joba, while not perfect, looked far better coming in in the 7th/8th inning during the postseason. We need to get younger in the near future, and trading for Halladay won't let that happen.

"Halladay only willing to waive his NTC for an extension & only to an east coast team drives down his price and limits the teams that Jays can work with."

It has never been written or known that Halladay would refuse a trade out west. This is simply speculation on Heyman's part. Halladay has only ever said he wants to go to a winner. That & that alone is Doc's motivation for a trade.

"i'd rather save the prospects"

I'm not sure if the Yankees will have a choice in the matter, at least as far as bidding goes.

Anthopoulos has made a terrific play here. Opening up the bidding to the AL East has put all contending teams on high alert.

The Yankees could save the prospects and wait to sign him as a FA...BUT Boston would surely know that this is then their main chance to steal a march on the Yankees. Do they really want to spend the next few years facing up to a Halladay/Sabathia frontline?

So if the Yankees want to make Doc a lock, they move now. And that in turn gets other teams - the Phillies, the Dodgers, the Mets et al - to up the ante too. If you let the Yanks take the Doc, you've just made winning the WS in the next few years an AWFUL lot harder.

Ricciardi's mistake was in ruling OUT the AL East as a destination for Halladay. The Sox and the Yanks didn't have to keep an eye on each other, and everybody else was able to calmly lowball the Jays.

I'm loving the way AA is playing this...I just hope to God that he doesn't end up with the Yanks. The Yanks probably offer the best haul, but years of facing CC/Doc means it's virtually dooming us to a decade of rebuilding.

You've gotta love the Yankees' hype machine, especially when it comes to players like Joba Chamberlain. He's the Kevin Maas of pitchers. He's never going to be an ace. While he MAY develop into a closer, does that make him a "center piece" in a trade for Roy Halladay? Please! The rest of the AL East salivates at the prospect that Chamberlain and Hughes will be the Yankees' "future". If Cashman was smart he would drive those bums to the Skydome himself.

If the Yankees get involved in the Halladay talks, the Red Sox aren't gonna up their offer just to keep him from NY. You all act like the Red Sox and Yankees always make moves to offset the other team, and over the last few years that just isn't the case. Why would the Red Sox hold a firm offer to Teixeira and allow him to go to NY, but not do the same in this case? As a Red Sox fan, I hope they hold onto their prospects for a run at Felix Hernandez, whenever he does become available (most likely in July or 2011). Halladay is great and all, but I don't see the Red Sox extending him for the years and money he wants. Even if they did, they aren't gonna extend him and Beckett, so if you lose Beckett after this year and gain Halladay, plus all the prospects you gave up, how much better did you become? If the Yankees go out and get Halladay, sure they are gonna win the World Series again. But if the Red Sox aquire Felix in 2011 with the prospects that would have gone to Toronto, and pair him with Lester and Beckett, well the Red Sox would be favorites to win it for 5 years.

Teixeira is a great player, but he is not comparable to Halladay. Tex is 1B, Halladay is a stud ace pitcher. It goes without saying that a top pitcher is more responsible for winning games than a 1B.

With Felix, you are banking your future on four factors:

1. That he doesn't sign an extension with the Mariners

2. That he doesn't sign for another team as a FA

3. That even if he DOES sign with the Sox that you'd be good enough to beat a Halladay/Sabathia/2011 pitcher Yankees team

4. That he can hold his own in the AL East (something that Halladay has proven for a decade)

Thing is, there really is no gambling with Halladay, especially if he agrees to an extension window. He'll make a very good team into a great team. And he'll be around for at least the next five years. I'd give up what it takes to get him...but we'll see what happens.

All the Joba hate is funny.

"he posted a 4.25 era in the AL east in the first half in his first full year of starting...he also had a road era of 4.03 for the season...those are terrible numbers for a first year starter"

4.25 ERA in the hardest division in baseball in your first year was...bad?

Keep in mind he's only had 1 year in the minors to fine tune his off speed pitches so he's really been learning off major league hitting.

Listen to yourself man & stop drinking the haterade.

Montero, Jackson, Zach Mcallister, Betances.

Take it or leave it AA.

The Mariners should offer Bedard and a prospect for Halladay. That would instantaneously catapult them into contention. Halladay would end up in a Pitchers park. They would definitely get to the post season with him. Of course they'd have to bring back Beltre/Branyan as well.

Gleb: I think he was being sarcatic.

johns: He did in 07. In 08 he was more around 94-96 as a starter. In 09 he seems to "hold back" early on and sits around 91-93. Later in the game (when he pitches past the 5 inning) he seems to kick it up to around 95-96. That kind of goes against what typical. Usually hard throwers who lack endurance tend to start off throwing hard and usually lose mph as the pitch count increases. But the 98-100 mph Joba hasn't been seen since late 07.

I honestly think he needs a mentor/offseason training from someone like Clemens, minus the use of (cough) the "vitamins" and "supplements". I think he needs to find the balance of being a power pitcher vs a finesse pitcher. So many times he gets ahead of the count and then turns it into a 3-2 count.

The Mariners should offer Bedard and a prospect for Halladay. That would instantaneously catapult them into contention. Halladay would end up in a Pitchers park. They would definitely get to the post season with him. Of course they'd have to bring back Beltre/Branyan as well.

Posted by: Beniitec | November 12, 2009 at 01:15 PM
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Bedard isn't even under contract w/ the M's anymore. Also, if they can barely afford to hold on to Felix then how will they be able to acquire Halladay as well?

YanksFan, you obviously don't know much about the M's financials. They have plenty of money to spend this year. That's why I'm saying it. They have Felix for 2 more years. Buster Olney said it himself yesterday on Twitter, "The Mariners are in a great, great position to take advantage of the current climate in the baseball market."

It actually makes MORE sense for the Jays to trade Halladay in their division, pending they get a reasonable return back. Say they can get a great prospect and one or two other prospects back from the Red Sox/Yankees. Sure it makes the division harder for the Jays to win in during the short-term, but they aren't going to be winning at all during the short-term. However, if you take away a Hughes, or Montero, or Anderson, or whoever from the Red Sox or Yankees, they will most likely have less talent in the future. So not only would the Jays gain better prospects for the future, but either the Red Sox or Yankees would less talented prospects.

@brian91388

While I agree with your post and points, even if the Yankees go out and get Halladay I don't see that move taking them out of throwing $200+ million at King Felix when he becomes a free Agent.

As by that time Andy would most likely have retired, AJ would (I believe) be in the last year of his contract, and Felix would still be what 24/25 years old? So I still think the Yanks will offer the most to Felix when/if he becomes a FA, I think it will ultimately come down to his preference of where he wants to play because there will be no shortage of takers for him.

Bedard being Canadian should sweeten the deal. :)

God, I pray there is a work stoppage in a couple of year so that all this Yankee Red Sox nonsense can stop. Why even bother with a league if they just buy everything.

Fans of big market teams all fear a salary cap, because they know there huge advantage would come to an end.

I would think the Yankees wouldn't much for a trade. The only big trade they've done this decade was the Arod trade. They'd be more likely to try to sign Halladay after he's traded

i hate when people say that its unfair what the yankees are doing. dont tell me a team like the nationals couldnt have gotten tex or the brewers honestly couldnt have buckled up 30 mill to get CC. Please.

Look, I am not knocking on Chamberlain, but he is a dominant reliever in starter's clothing until he goes more than 5 innings.

As a trade chip for a guy like Halladay, he would be valuable to them as a closer I (at least) would think is how they would view him as a potential closer and not as a starter.

Not knocking on him at all, just how teams might view him as maximum value as how he has performed best so far in his young MLB career.

Thanks YFS78, thought he had hit triple digits before on the radar. Somebody hopefully will be able to work with him and get a plan together to pace him through a game plan/stress level that he will find comfortable if he continues as a starter.

I think the Yanks should do whatever they need to do to win in 2010, they could get a package of prospects together and be ready for the next round of GM meetings. I see this as a great lineup for next year:

Jeter
Pedroia
Longora
A-Rod
Texeira
Mauer
Bay
Ichiro
Hamilton

Oh wait, that's the lineup for the 2009 AL All-Star team...

LOL! I find it funny that some people think it isn't worthwhile to give up prospect for the best pitcher in baseball.

I will guarantee you that whoever you give up, they will never be as good as Halladay. Also, what would the Yankees care, they can just go get Joe Mauer rather than play a rookie catcher like Jesus Montero.

I think Joba maybe the next Mariano Rivera. This is coming from a Red Sox fan. Joba would be a killer closer. I wouldn't want to face him in the ninth inning.

And since people seem to dumb to figure it out, I'm going to post this again (same as other Halladay thread):

It's NOT one year of Halladay.

It's either
a) One year of Halladay PLUS 2 first round draft picks

or

b) Multiple years of Halladay (signs extension)

monstermash,

Halladay is a salary dump because the Blue Jays are hemmorhaging money and have no chance at winning next year. A salary dump is measured by the team doing the trading, not by a hypothetical team. There is simply no match with the Yankees. Considering that the Yankees have an ace, they aren't trading one of the best catching prospects in the world for Halladay. They just are not that desperate after winning the world series and having the chance to sign him as a free agent after next season without giving up anything.

Heck, if Halladay didn't want to play for a contended the Jays would be extending him, not trading him. So how you can call it a salary dump is beyond me.

Seems my other comment was deleted because of language.

The Jays aren't "hemmoraghing" money. They have room to add payroll. So I don't get this notion that you think they're dumping Halladay.

If you don't think 2 first round picks plus a top 5 pitcher in all of baseball for a season is worth a top prospect, you really are nuts.

And for the record, if Montero catches 50 games in the bigs I'll be shocked.

hemorrhaging money?

Clearly you don't know anything about, well anything. You don't know anything about the owners - Rogers Communications & you obviously didn't read or hear about the recent quotes from Jays president Paul Beeston in regards to money & the Blue Jays.

Please stop posting about things you have no knowledge of. Thanks.

The team is considering trading the player because he wants to win & he would like to do so sooner rather than later. His time line for winning does not match with the time line of the Blue Jays.

Seems reasonable enough to me.

He hasn't demanded a trade. That's not what I meant. In fact, he'd much prefer to win WITH the Jays. But the Jays aren't in a position to win in the next couple of years given their current roster makeup, so he wouldn't sign an extension. Therefore, it makes sense to trade him instead of losing him to free agency.

And I don't know about every story where you're from, but the Jays at no point made any mention of cutting payroll. They let Rios go because his contract was worth more than they thought he should be paid. If he was producing, they never would have let him leave.

Wouldn't be great if they played something different?

"monstermash,

Halladay is a salary dump because the Blue Jays are hemmorhaging money and have no chance at winning next year. A salary dump is measured by the team doing the trading, not by a hypothetical team. There is simply no match with the Yankees. Considering that the Yankees have an ace, they aren't trading one of the best catching prospects in the world for Halladay. They just are not that desperate after winning the world series and having the chance to sign him as a free agent after next season without giving up anything."

IS this a joke seriously lol. A salary dump is when team A is paying someone a lot of money and team B agrees to take on the contract for nothing of value (maybe a couple real low prospects or something) simply providing salary relief to the other team.

If the Jays were dumping halladay's salary he would have 29 suitors willing to pay for his services for one year and take the draft picks and knowledge from him...

You ppl should be banned from commenting some of this stuff it brings down the integrity of the site. It's exactly why Tim doesn't want to put in forums

KING Felix will not be traded for a mere 4 unproven prospects. You will have to give up real, young and proven talent to get him. And still that probably will not be enough, if anyone is untouchable it is he.

LOL! I find it funny that some people think it isn't worthwhile to give up prospect for the best pitcher in baseball.

I will guarantee you that whoever you give up, they will never be as good as Halladay. Also, what would the Yankees care, they can just go get Joe Mauer rather than play a rookie catcher like Jesus Montero.

Posted by: Peter D | November 12, 2009 at 02:39 PM

This seems to be the common theme coming from Jays fans regarding Halladay. Unfortunately, it is drastically out of touch with reality. To preface what I am going to say, even though I am a Sox fan, I am hoping that Halladay does NOT end up in Boston, so throw out the homer excuse. Now with that said...

There is no team in baseball, whether it be the Yankees, Sox, Angels, or otherwise that is going to give up their top 2 prospects for 1 year of Hallday. Before you jump on me about an extension, that does not come into play here. While an extension is likely to be required before a trade is completed, the cost of that extension induces negative value in any trade discussions. While Halladay is one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball at this point in time (He is not the best pitcher in baseball), he will be 33 at the beginning of next year. Giving Halladay a 5 year contract takes him to 38. How many non-steroid enhanced power pitchers can you name that have dominated after 35? Not too many...In essence, Halladay is going to require a huge contractual obligation for his past prime years. While any team that gets him is obviously going to be a team competing in the present, Halladay will not be a good value in the last 2 years of whatever contract extension that he signs. Further, requiring a teams TOP 2 prospects equates to 8-10 years of combined cost-controlled, to flight young talent. With the current market baseball operates in, GMs are reluctant to give up young cost-controlled talent for aging veterans. While none of this is what Jays fans want to hear, this is reality. There is a reason the Phillies turned their attention from Halladay to Lee last year. The asking price that Ricciardi had last year was comical at best.

I didn't say top 2 prospects. I said A top prospect (plus other lower prospects). And you also seem to have ignored the 2 draft picks the acquiring team gets if they don't extend Halladay (and all this requiring it to waive his NTC is complete nonsense floated by the media because that's what other guys have done).

"Giving Halladay a 5 year contract takes him to 38. How many non-steroid enhanced power pitchers can you name that have dominated after 35? Not too many"

Maybe not too many...but Halladay will be one of them.

I know Jays fans come on here seemingly asking for a lot, but you need to recognise that there is a fine line between insane fandom and just knowing our player (who we see year in, year out)

None of us are GMs. We are not here to try to sell Halladay to you. Rather, we are trying to tell you just how much awesomeness you will be getting in return.

Your economic arguments are sound, but that's not really what the Halladay sweepstakes are about. Getting Halladay now is about putting a very good team over the top for the next few years. If teams would rather consolidate and economise for the long-term (like the Jays are), then getting Halladay would be the wrong move. If you want to win now - and get past the Yanks - then you go for Halladay in a big way.

I didn't say top 2 prospects. I said A top prospect (plus other lower prospects). And you also seem to have ignored the 2 draft picks the acquiring team gets if they don't extend Halladay (and all this requiring it to waive his NTC is complete nonsense floated by the media because that's what other guys have done).

Draft picks are nice, but quality prospects are much, much nicer. Also, there is no guarantee that the team which loses Doc gets two picks. If the top pick from the team that signs Doc is protected (highly unlikely) it immediately becomes a sandwich pick and a 2nd round pick at best. If the team that signs Doc signs more than one Type A F/A a situation similar to what happened with TOR this year could arise again. Finally, the likelihood that even a top 1st round draft pick turns out a major league success is MUCH lower than that of a top prospect who has already produced at some level of professional baseball.

It's incredible how rookies w/ NO mlb experience are OVERvalued and how 1st and 2nd year players who haven't hit the ground running are UNDERvalued.

Does anyone know the difference between a BLUECHIP pitching prospect and the Joba's and Buccholz' of the world? 10-15 bad starts collectively in 09. Wow...rookie pitchers struggle? Go back in time and look at the first year or two in the careers of Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Ramdy Johnson and Roy Halladay. Not at all comparing the talents of Joba or Buchholz to the others, but DAMN if the great ones struggle early in their careers then let's cut these guys some slack too?

The Mets have 0 shot at Halladay. While the Mets have a Fernando Martinez and a few B- type prospects, the Jays want, and rightfully deserve 1 prospect ready to make an immediate impact. There is nothing that the Mets can offer the Jays that would make them jump unless Wright or Reyes was discussed (which I realize would not happen).

The reason the Jays won't trade Roy Halladay is that other teams see him as merely a top 5 type pitcher, worthy of a top prospect and a couple throw-ins.

Too bad the Jays know better than anyone, that he is the best pitcher of the decade. Will be a top 5 pitcher for the next 3 years at least. Best chance of any pitcher in the league to pitch well as he nears 40. If he does hit free agency, the Jays will likely be the team to offer him the most years, which could be the key to landing him.

If they aren't blown away by the start of free agency, they will make a half-hearted attempt at a 2010 run, and if that fails, they'll give him the best possible shot at a ring by renting him out at the deadline to a surefire contender.

Curtis Granderson is still under contract and would cost Alot.
Hernandez will never be a Yankee because the price will simply be absurd if he even does hit free agency. Yanks dont want Sheets or Harden because they are too injury prone, and already have Wang, Pettite and two youngsters in Joba and Hughes, and I personally do not want Lackey because i do not like the guy and think hell be in the Burnett neighborhood in terms of cost (absurd)

Draft picks are nice, but quality prospects are much, much nicer. Also, there is no guarantee that the team which loses Doc gets two picks. If the top pick from the team that signs Doc is protected (highly unlikely) it immediately becomes a sandwich pick and a 2nd round pick at best. If the team that signs Doc signs more than one Type A F/A a situation similar to what happened with TOR this year could arise again. Finally, the likelihood that even a top 1st round draft pick turns out a major league success is MUCH lower than that of a top prospect who has already produced at some level of professional baseball."

Why must people always point out the value of ONE of the two aspects to the trade relative to whatever the Jays get in return. You get Doc for one year AND two picks. That's far more valuable than a player close to the bigs. And for the record, assuming Halladay pitches like he did this year, he'll once again be at the top of the Elias rankings among eligible FA, so they would get the late 1st and supplemental (under the logical assumption that he'll sign with a team that won).

If i am the Blue Jays GM I know i have to make fair trades i cannot just go off saying to anyone like the Angels okay the trade is for Roy Halladay for Erick Ayabar,Brandon Wood,Ervin Santanna,and a prospect like he tried to do in the middle of the year he's got to get a trade that they both like or they will have to be in the race to sign Halladay.

I don't understand how Yankees fans aren't salivating at the opportunity of acquiring Hallday. Flat out, the guys a top 3 pitcher in MLB all while playing in the best hitting division in baseball. I'm not sure if its overconfidence in our pitching staff, but lets be honest, relying on Pettite to win another WS while apart of a 3 man rotation is a stretch, as is relying on Joba or Hughes to provide solid starting pitching in the playoffs.

At the end of the day, too many fans and GMs are enamored with prospects and "what might become of them" (best exemplified by the red sox fan who claimed they could win the WS in 5 yeas, gimme a break). For every prospect, there's been a guy like Bubba Crosby who absolutely tanked. Give up Joba/Hughes, Montero, Kennedy, and another mid level and pencil Halladay in our rotation and you have an incredibly dominating team (considering we just rolled through the playoffs w/ a 11-4 record without playing a game 7 and every GM in baseball would cringe with the addition of Halladay).

Also, Hallday is worth the long term committment because hes not simply a power pitcher, he can also locate and deceive hitters, so if his fastball tails off in a few years he will still be able to get guys out.

I realize building for the future is important, but relying on unproven prospects while passing up the opportunity to become the favorite for the next few WS and possibly establishing yet another Yankees dynasty seems foolish especially given Cashman's huge payroll to sign free agents and not rely on prospects for success.

At the end of the day, Halladay in pinstripes could ruin baseball for anyone whose not a Yankees fan, and thats extremely enticing for those of us who are.