Quick Hits: Hall, Young, Feliz, Burnett, Buck

Links for Wednesday night..

  • Longtime major leaguer Juan Castro told MLB.com's Ken Gurnick that he never considered retirement at any point this winter.  The 38-year-old is trying to hook on with the Dodgers in 2011 for what would be his fourth stint with the club.
  • Earlier today, Yankees GM Brian Cashman told versatile Astros veteran Bill Hall that the club was "this close" to signing him, tweets Jack Curry of the YES Network.
  • A source close to the Rockies told Jon Heyman of Sports Illustrated that the Rangers sought a "very good player" for Michael Young, but didn't elaborate on who that player might be.
  • Some in the Rangers front office feel that Neftali Feliz could develop into the type of starter that would otherwise cost a bundle in a trade, writes T.R. Sullivan of MLB.com.
  • Yankees fans have been hard on A.J. Burnett, who is set to earn $16.5MM annually through 2013.  However, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports writes that Burnett's career numbers are not all that different from Boston's Josh Beckett.
  • Outfielder Travis Buck views his arrival in the Indians locker room as a fresh start, writes MLB.com's Jordan Bastian.


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108 Comments on "Quick Hits: Hall, Young, Feliz, Burnett, Buck"


vonhayesdays
4 years 6 months ago

Travis buck was a complete let down in Oakland

4 years 6 months ago

People in baseball named Buck are usually letdowns, unless their first name was Jack.

vonhayesdays
4 years 6 months ago

although i never thought a whole lot of John buck

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

“However, Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports writes that Burnett’s career numbers are not all that different from Boston’s Josh Beckett ”

I’ve said this numerous times. However, I think anybody today would easily take Beckett over Burnett.

qbass187
4 years 6 months ago

Just another example of numbers not showing the whole picture.

MetsFanXXIII
4 years 6 months ago

I’d probably take Beckett because he’s over three years younger, and Burnett is on the wrong side of his prime.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

That’s probably my main reason also.

Fangaffes
4 years 6 months ago

My reason is that Beckett has a track record of being very good every other year. It’s not clear that Burnett will ever be good again.

Yankee_Baal
4 years 6 months ago

That’s probably not as good as it sounds. I mean, If they have similar numbers, but Burnett is 3 years older, it might indicate that Beckett’s decline curve will be higher (just sayin’, I’d have to truly analyze the numbers).

vonhayesdays
4 years 6 months ago

i think it says beckets has like 30 fewer loses and 2 more wins in less years

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

Ken Rosenthal must feel really smart about this similarity between the two, but the reality is you can put a bow around a piece of junk, but it is still a piece of junk (Burnett).

Chuck345
4 years 6 months ago

He had a bad season. At least he contributed to giving the Yankees #27 so he has not been completely useless. And I’ve been saying this repeatedly, I definitely think he will have a decent season. Not Cy Young, but decent and will give them some big games. Everyone seems to have already jumped on the anti-Burnett bandwagon and forgot that the guy can be effective. Consistency has been the issue but a lot of pitchers suffer from that as well.

Yankee_Baal
4 years 6 months ago

Plus, the Yanks have a new pitching coach. Rothschild may not have the instant name recognition that Mazzone, Duncan or Peterson have, but if he was pitching coach under Baylor, Baker and Piniella he might have a couple of good things to give to the pitchers. I hope that Girardi’s staff can become an asset to the organization. Kevin Long as already done some great things for some batters and if Rothschild can help the development of the young pitchers and some veterans regain form, they will make the teams management more appealing for free agents.

Redsoxn8tion
4 years 6 months ago

Absolutely man. Beckett, when healthy, is as dominant as they come. AJ’s a headcase. Even thought I hate the Yankees, Josh is easily a better pick.

Tko11
Tko11
4 years 6 months ago

Good thing Hall went to the Astros, at least he will get some playing time. He filled in fairly well for the Sox last year. Beckett is far superior to Burnett lol…Rosenthal forgot to mention the fact that Burnett has pitched about 30 more games than Beckett therefor Beckett’s 112-74 is a lot better than 110-100. In Burnett’s 12 seasons he has only once had a WAR above 3. Beckett has had a WAR above 3 in 5 of his 10 seasons(two of those times above 4). Point is that it is not a fair comparison at all, no idea what point Rosenthal was attempting to make.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

A 3 WAR isn’t really a very good WAR. And as you pointed out yourself, he’s gone less than a 3 WAR 5 of 10 times (although I’m sure some of them were due to not full seasons, although with the year he had last year there was no way that was leading to a 3 WAR even in a full season),

Tko11
Tko11
4 years 6 months ago

Well yea 3 WAR isn’t that good but 2 WAR is average for pitchers. Which would mean that Burnett is around the average pitcher mark while Beckett is an above average pitcher in terms of WAR. I would say elite pitchers would start at about 5 WAR and up.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Rosenthal is dumb for bringing up the W-L to begin with. However to counter your argument though, for those who are at least interested, AJ Burnett has only pitched in a season 1 time before he came to the Yankees in which his team won at least 89 games. Beckett has pitched on a team who has at least won 89 games 6 times already(2003, and 2006- 2010 and probably counting), for Burnett, just 2003 and the last 2 years.

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

If you want to go down that road, consider Beckett pitched for the 2005 Red Sox who finished 3rd that year to the Blue Jays who scooped up Burnett only to watch him opt out and sign with the Yankees who are perennial 90+ wins.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

My mistake, I meant 2005-2010 every year but 2006. At first I thought it was 2005 they finished in 3rd.

“only to watch him opt out and sign with the Yankees who are perennial 90+ wins. “. What’s wrong with doing that? He’s not the first player to ever opt out.

roomwithamoose
4 years 6 months ago

just pointing out the whole 112-74 vs 110-100 is not best comparison you can look at W/L or you can lookat Becket pitching for the Sox while Burnett played for teams who didntwin as many games as the Sox, and that’s not his fault completely. I’m not defending burnett as i am saying one of your points isn’t a good point either. At this point Idc if burnett outpitched koufax ovr his career, I just want to see him pitch well this season.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Yeah I mentioned that. The Blue Jays did have a few winning seasons but not as much as the Red Sox (except for 06). Beckett has been on a team that has won at least 89 games 6 of the last 8 years.

MetsFanXXIII
4 years 6 months ago

Anyone else find Cashman’s exchange a little perverted?

“I almost had you. It was this close.”

Sheepish Bill Hall: “Sorry.”

4 years 6 months ago

Yeah exactly – what was the nature or context of this conversation. Did Brian really just call him and say “You could’ve been here, but we took a pass”?

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Earlier today, Yankees GM Brian Cashman told versatile Astros veteran Bill Hall that the club was “this close” to signing him, tweets Jack Curry of the YES Network.

So Cashman probably said “Ahh we need pitching though so we can’t have him”. However I wonder if Cashman has seen Bill Hall has pitched in a game before! So yes Cashman, he can pitch!!!

Tko11
Tko11
4 years 6 months ago

3 up 3 down

The_Silver_Stacker
4 years 6 months ago

If were that desperate for pitching we always have Nick Swisher

4 years 6 months ago

I’m sure Aaron Miles would be easy to obtain, too.

4 years 6 months ago

Transitioning Feliz to the rotation could end up being one of the best “additions” to a team this offseason, but if his replacement(s) end up with more blown saves than Feliz has wins, there could be a lot of second-guessing the change. The pressure is on not only Feliz but the remaining Texas bullpen.

0bsessions
4 years 6 months ago

“Earlier today, Yankees GM Brian Cashman told versatile Astros veteran Bill Hall that the club was “this close” to signing him”

I have to imagine that if Cashman was “this close” to signing Hall, Hall probably would be well aware of the fact already.

thevauntedchris
4 years 6 months ago

Truly shows how overrated Beckett is.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

I will agree to an extent and say he is overrated, BUT he is not as overrated as Burnett. However, I no longer can put Beckett amongst the best pitchers in baseballs unless he somehow can have a year like he had in 2007. Which coincidentally was also Lackey’s last Great year.

thevauntedchris
4 years 6 months ago

I don’t agree that Burnett is overrated because I don’t know anyone who rates him very highly. You have to be highly thought of to be overrated.

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

You don’t get 80 million dollars for nothing, he was over rated. He is always going to be compared to Beckett because they won a ring together in 2003, and Boston got Beckett and NY got Burnett, they are always comparing who got the better one, you don’t think the writers are busy writing away at the comparison of Teixiera and Gonzalez? Just wait, they already have it all lined up, and Cano is getting compared to Pedroia, and Because Pedroia got the MVP, they will compare Cano to him and try to show why HE should have an MVP trophy.

thevauntedchris
4 years 6 months ago

giving someone that much money in baseball doesn’t make them very good. I can go down the list and read that all you are doing is taking the opposite stance on everyone’s comments. I’ve yet to read where you prove or disprove a point. The majority of people don’t rate AJ Burnett highly anymore. That is not debatable. Therefore he is not overrated. And I have no idea what those other players have to do with anything. I don’t care who is compared to who.

ellisburks
4 years 6 months ago

However at the time of his signing he WAS over rated. He had only had 2 seasons of 200IP in 5 years before he got his big deal in Toronto and only 3 seasons of 200IP in 7 years before he opted out of that deal for a bigger deal in New York. And both deals were made based on potential. He had a big curveball that everyone thought would eventually transform into big wins and front line starter status. That never happened. He was rated as a number 1 starter, paid as a number 1 starter but is pitching like a number 5 starter. That is over rated.

YanksFanSince78
4 years 6 months ago

Ppl….if you EVER want to have a great time, then hang out with “Boston fan”. They are bound to make you laugh.

“However at the time of his signing he WAS over rated. He had only had 2 seasons of 200IP in 5 years before he got his big deal in Toronto and only 3 seasons of 200IP in 7 years before he opted out of that deal for a bigger deal in New York”.

How many 200 IP seasons did Beckett have before coming to Boston? 0. How many 200 IP seasons has he had in his career? 3. How many before he signed his latest mega deal? 3.

I would take Beckett over AJ simply because he’s a bit more reliable but as to Rosenthal’s comparison, once you get past the W/L arguement he’s pretty much spot on.

Beckett vs AJ career

Starts: 242 vs 230
IP: 1,500 vs 1,467
ERA: 4.01 vs 3.93
FIP: 3.69 vs 3.81
K/9: 8.5 vs 8.5
BB/9: 2.76 vs 3.60
HR/9: 1.01 vs 0.87
BABIP: .297 vs .293
Whip: 1.25 vs 1.30

Like I said, I would take Beckett over AJ but clearly their career numbers are similar aside from AJ’s control issues that come and go and lack of focus.

ellisburks
4 years 6 months ago

Let’s compare the last 5 years in the AL East:

Beckett Burnett
4.29 ERA 4.23
919.2 IN 916.1
1.250 WHIP 1.356
2.4 bb/9 3.6
8.2 K/9 8.5
2.72 BB/K 2.35
13.1 WAR 10.3
71-40 W/L 61-50

So as you say they are pretty similar. The last 5 years in the tough AL East Beckett has had a much better WHIP and better K and BB numbers than Burnett and has been worth more in terms of WAR and he does have a much better record in similar innings and games. I know wins and losses are dismissed and they are heavily influenced by the teams they play on but AJ’s teams were over .500 every year and one team won a WS and he still has 10 less wins and 10 more losses than Beckett. And Burnett doesn’t have the full season highs that Beckett has, of course they have the same full season lows.
Also, you should look at the post season stats for both:

7-3 3.07 ERA 0.94 WHIP 3 shutouts in 13 starts with a 4.71 K/BB ratio Beckett
1-2 5.67 ERA 1.410 WHIP 1.47 K/BB ratio in 6 starts Burnett

So maybe you wouldn’t be hurt too bad if you substituted Burnett for Beckett during the regular season but if you got in the playoffs I would much rather have Beckett. Is that non-biased enough for you?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 6 months ago

A) I was going by what Rosenthal mentioned, and that was their career similarities in terms of numbers and peripherals and not career accolades.

B) I already conceeded I would take Beckett. So what’s your point?

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

what is anyone supposed to take from the career number comparison? it’s such an underhanded piece. it’s one thing to discuss the career numbers of players now gone to sizing up, well, their careers. but that’s not what rosenthal is doing. in one breath he talks about people being too hard on burnett, who is not retired and is pitching for nyy this year. in the next he cites career numbers compared to beckett’s, who is also not retired and is pitching for boston this year

he avoids directly saying “this is reason to think things looks good in 2011 and beyond”, but that’s very obviously the point he’s driving at. and it’s utter garbage to cite career numbers for projection purposes when the career in question spans 10+ years

burnett isn’t on beckett’s level and literally the only way to suggest otherwise is to dig into stats from 5 or more years ago. not worth defending at all

ellisburks
4 years 6 months ago

My point was that Red Sox fans can be unbiased and look at numbers in a rational way. Pretty much telling you to stuff it for saying :”Ppl….if you EVER want to have a great time, then hang out with “Boston fan”. They are bound to make you laugh.”

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Nobody gets a high contract without being rated high. Obviously the Yankees rated this guy high, the Giants rated Zito high, the Rockies rated Mike Hampton high, etc.

roomwithamoose
4 years 6 months ago

**cough**Carlos Silva**Cough

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Well I did put etc. for a reason lol

Oh the hell with it, to add on

**cough**Oliver Perez**Cough

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 6 months ago

Well to be fair he was signed by one of the worst GMs in baseball.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

As was Perez lol

The_Silver_Stacker
4 years 6 months ago

^ carl pavano

4 years 6 months ago

I think at this point overpaid is more accurate than overrated. Haven’t heard many people going around saying wonderful things about Beckett in quite awhile. Cautiously hopeful for improvement, at best.

thevauntedchris
4 years 6 months ago

I will agree, but it is only VERY recently that people have come to the realization that Beckett isn’t the pitching jesus that sox fans have been long clinging to for years

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

He is no pitching Jesus but by God he was a huge reason they got a ring in 2007, Burnett was the Curt Shilling version of the 2009 Yankees.

thevauntedchris
4 years 6 months ago

I like how I said “becket isn’t the pitching jesus” and you replied with “he is no pitching jesus.” Thank you for agreeing with me, even though you tried really hard to take an opposite stance. I have a feeling you didn’t go to law school, or have no plans to.

MetsFanXXIII
4 years 6 months ago

When it comes to post-win cream pies I think it’s safe to say Burnett has Beckett soundly beaten.

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

Post-win cream pies is a dumb tradition, it makes me think of the most stupid gag jokes by comedian clowns back in the day, only thing they don’t have is a spritzer bottle in the end, really lame.

lefty177
4 years 6 months ago

I think I read somewhere that the Rangers were asking for Tulo, CarGo, and Ubaldo as a starting point for Michael Young, hahlef

lefty177
4 years 6 months ago

*hah

4 years 6 months ago

I was gonna say, you laugh oddly :)

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

ken rosenthal is 4 feet tall. that fact is about as relevant as the stats he dug up to try to pretend beckett and burnett are similar. what a garbage piece that was. -5 bowtie boy

beckett was injured in 2010, but even if you pretend he wasn’t and count it against him, it stands out as a radical anomaly. here are the three full seasons prior to his injury:

player – 2007 – 2008 – 2009 – total

beckett – 6.1 WAR – 5.1 WAR – 5.4 WAR – 16.6 WAR

burnett – 2.6 WAR – 5.5 WAR – 3.4 WAR – 11.5 WAR

really want to add in 2010? go ahead – beckett 1.4, burnett 1.3.

over those 4 seasons beckett has pitched 713 innings, burnett has pitched 779. in 65 fewer innings (about a third of a season), beckett has produced 5+ WAR more over burnett. they do not belong in the same discussion

literally the only way to pretend these two pitchers are similar in any meaningful way at all is to go back and dig up numbers from 5 or more years ago. yes brilliant ken 2000-2006 will give us great insight into 2011 and beyond

the red sox should be concerned about some serious regression from kevin youkilis this year too, as 5 years ago in 2006 he only posted 2.4 WAR. chew on that compelling piece of information sports fans!

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

The worst part is Ken Rosenthal actually gets paid to write that stuff, and the most sickening thought is the fact that Ken Rosenthal was asked one time how many clubs are in MLB and he could only think of 4.

woadude
4 years 6 months ago

And two of them he doesn’t care for.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

There is absolutely no way Beckett and Burentt had Positive WAR’s in 2010. I think it’s time you start using B-R for pitchers for WAR (I do like FanGraphs WAR for hitters though)

Beckett
2007- 4.7
2008- 3.3
2009- 4.2
2010- -1.0

Burnett
2007- 2.6
2008- 2.9
2009- 2.8
2010- -0.1

But yes Beckett still wins easily (except last year)

11.2 for Beckett, 8.4 for Burnett

Although technically, I wouldn’t call it “unfair” to compare the 2 pitchers if the differnece between there WAR is an average of 0.9 for every year.

People compare Roy Halladay and Tim Lincecum together.

Last 3 years, Hallady has a WAR of 6.5, 6.8 and 6.9 (20.2 in 3 years)

Last 3 years for Lincecum- 6.9, 6.3 and 3.5

Halladay has an average WAR of 1.167 higher than Lincecum the last 3 years

While Beckett only averages 0.9 WAR higher than Burnett

You cannot say Beckett and Burnett do not belong in the same discussion. Because if you’re using WAR as your suorce, you are no different than saying Halladay and Lincecum belong in the same discussion.

0bsessions
4 years 6 months ago

You should try looking at it more in terms of percentages. The difference between 3 and 4 WAR is a lot more pronounced than the difference between 6 and 7. Halladay’s been worth about 15% more wins than Lincecum on average the last three, whereas Beckett’s been about 25% more wins than Burnett, which is a much more obvious difference when you get down to it.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

That’s true too. Or, perhaps based on per 162 games, if that’s possible to find, and I’ll try my best.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

The best I found was that Burnett averages 1.0 WAR for every 82+ innings (which in a full season of let’s say 220 innings is a 2.68 WAR) and Beckett averages 1.0 WAR for every 67+ innings (which in a full season is about a 3.28 WAR), so Beckett career is about 0.6 better. Not a Huge difference, but far from a small difference.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

over the three year period preceding the mutual anomaly that was 2010, beckett was worth almost 2 (1.7) more WAR per season. it’s not close

if you want to keep comparing their careers, be my guest. that couldn’t be less relevant to the future, though, and i don’t know why anyone would take comfort in burnett’s numbers from 5+ years ago

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Again, you’re using fWAR, I was using bWAR, because I think defense still has to be factored in to how a pitcher does, because it’s like your assuming all balls put in play are created equal, which is not the case.

You’re pitching on the mound, you have the bases loaded in 1 inning with 1 out, you get a DP.

The next inning, you have the bases loaded with 1 inning, you give up a 3 run triple, you then strike the next 2 batters out.

Now in the process as the game (and season for that matter) goes along. Wouldn’t that 2nd inning in this example give a pitcher a higher boost than the first inning? I could be mistaken so that’s why I’m asking you.

And actually on the last 3 years (on rWAR)

AJ Burnett total WAR- 5.6
Josh Beckett- 6.5

A 0.3 yearly difference, not a 1.7. I am then assuming you used fWAR

Again, we are entitled to what we want to use, but the truth is, you can’t say 1 is wrong and 1 is right since there technically is no right or wrong answer to it.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

i’ve told you why i’m using fWAR and why using rWAR is sloppy. rWAR is not measuring just the individual performance of the pitcher; it is measuring the performance of the pitcher and his defense. sloppily. i am interesting in comparing pitcher performance, so i am using the numbers that do that

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

What does his measure about the defense exactly? Are you saying that fWAR does not fact things such as hits allowed (aside from HR), etc.?

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

rWAR uses runs allowed and then adjusts for defense according to the total zone ratings for defense. with all due respect to smith’s worth, it’s the height of sloppiness compared to fWAR. he is trying to do what we just don’t have the tools to do effectively (sort of which hits a pitcher is responsible for)

i don’t take the hard line that pitchers have no significant control over hits on balls in play (some do). i take the position that we can’t yet figure out to any effective degree which hits those are. and craploads of research has been done trying to work this out

i agree with smith’s goal, but his measurement isn’t effective. it’s not secret that total zone isn’t even a very useful measure of defense, so we are talking about several steps removed from any precision in the data with rWAR. fWAR will tell you with precision how a pitcher performed in terms of the things directly under his control. from there we can offer conjecture based on BABIP and line drive rates and all that if we want to. that’s a significantly clearer picture of performance

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

i understand you are firmly committed to using whichever stats best support your preselected point of view, and that’s fine. but by ignoring fWAR, you are evaluating pitchers’ individual performances by using statistics that reflect the performance of a pitcher and his defense. that is your prerogative, but it significantly sloppier than using fWAR

it is not much different than using RBI instead of something like wOBA or wRC+. you are getting a skewed idea of how a pitcher performed

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Well I don’t want to discuss a whole defense argument thing, but it’s part of the game. Pitchers don’t K every batter.

Plus does WAR and other stats tell you what batters the pitchers K and BB? If you face Mark Reynolds and Ryan Howard 10 times in a season each, they more than likely will strike out about 13 times. If you face Dustin Pedroia or Ian Kinsler, they probably will strike out a combined 4 times

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

of course defense is part of the game; how could anyone think otherwise? the point is that because no two starting pitchers are aided by the same defense, using statistics that reflect the performance of those different defenses results in a significantly less clear comparison of the pitchers’ individual performances. since it is pitchers’ individual performances you are trying to compare, you should want to avoid that

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

That’s true, but by ignoring defense totally, you’re also saying that pitchers don’t give up hits. Which is why, as I said to you in the past, you Cannot ignore hits given up which is what FIP does.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

you also can’t sort out very well which hits in the numbers (other than HRs) the pitcher is responsible for. or can you? if you can, i’ll jump on board. just tell me how

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

No but you also cannot sort out (unless you go on Pitch F/X) and assume all Balls and strikes (Or Walks and K’s) are created equal as well.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

of course not, but we’re not trying to. we’re trying to differentiate between [things for which the pitcher is responsible and his defense is not] and [things for which the pitcher and his defense are responsible]

DIPS is a massive and awesome field of study and there are still plenty of questions to answer, but if you concede that we can’t sort out which hits on balls in play a pitcher is responsible for, you shouldn’t be using rWAR. that’s all i’m saying

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

MLB STARTING PITCHERS 2007-2009

1. sabathia 21.0
2. halladay 20.4
3. lincecum 18.9
4. haren 17.5
5. greinke 16.9
6. beckett 16.9

16. burnett 11.6

burnett is not a bad pitcher; that’s never been the point. the point is that they’re on distinctly different tiers

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Well that’s why I did the last 3 years. Take out 2007 and insert 2010, and Beckett’s WAR is 5.7 less than that. (11.2). Take out 2007 and insert 2010 for Burnett, and his WAR is 2.5 less than his (9.1)

Or if you would, I can just say add in 2010 along with it, and Beckett’s WAR is 1.0 less than Burnett’s is 0.1 less.

I don’t think it’s fair to call it a “fluke” year since he’s had other good years, but 2007 is the only year Josh Beckett ever received a single Cy Young vote (well he receieved more than a single but you know what I mean). Burnett has never receieved any.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

i don’t care about cy young voting and i don’t think you should either. many of the voters openly have a problem with hernandez having won last year because of his win total. his win total for crying out sakes

but as for 2010, why would you want to use a mutually anomalous season? 2010 is an enormous outlier for both pitchers. the only reason i can think of that it would be useful to you is it because it draws them a lot closer than 2007

i mean that’s fine, 2010 did happen. it’s just a weird thing to emphasize. if you insist on using it, you should use the last 4 years – as i did. and the gap is again huge

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

I did do that. I said if you include 2007, then subtract 1 from Beckett and 0.1 from Burnett. Although as I said I forgot you used fWAR

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

“many of the voters”? Umm he receieved 23 of 28 first place votes. If 5 is many, I’d agree. And Greinke won it the year before despite being only tied for 7th in wins. It’s fairly obvious that voters don’t go on W/L anymore. The last time an AL Cy Young winner led the league in wins and was “arguably” undeserving of the Cy Young that year, was 2005 in Bartolo Colon.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

“many of the voters” includes those that voted for him

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Do you have a source on that? Because the logic doesn’t make sense. Why vote for him, if you feel he shouldn’t have won?

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

i didn’t say they felt he shouldn’t have won. i guess i wasn’t perfectly clear when i said they had a problem with him winning in light of his win total, but why run with the least sensible interpretation of that comment? seems like you’re just looking for something disagree about

the point there was that cy young voting is not a reliable way to measure a pitcher’s performance. history bears that out

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Well I’m glad they expanded it to 5 players on the ballot now.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Blaaa, sorry I keep forgetting you use fWAR

YanksFanSince78
4 years 6 months ago

I really, really wish you would get beyond the atempt to prove Beckett is better than AJ. No one is arguing he isn’t.

The point ROsenthal is making is that his peripherals match up to that of Beckett’s and that it’s his mental lapses and the wild streaks he goes thru, which are all mental aspects of the game AJ can control , are the things that’s keeping him from being as good as Beckett.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

“The point ROsenthal is making is that his peripherals match up to that of Beckett’s ”

can you quote him making that point?

YanksFanSince78
4 years 6 months ago

I can easily make the point was that he specificaly showed AJ the stats and said “You can be as good if you focus” (not an exact quote). I think u are all missing the point of the article.

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

he didn’t show AJ’s peripheral stats; he showed AJ’s career wins (seriously?), ERA (for god’s sake), and OPS against compared to beckett’s to suggest he could be as good as beckett

then you said “The point Rosenthal is making is that his peripherals match up to that of Beckett’s”. 1) that is not the point he is making and 2) they pretty much don’t anyway. his career counting stats match up – and they mean next to nothing in terms of projecting 2011

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

So I hope blackcourt reads this response then. Seems as if he’s agreeing with you. I don’t know if it’s 1 of 2 reasons, or both

1- You’re a Red Sox fan (and so is he of course)

and/or

2- He’s a fan of WAR (which I have no idea of)

Yet here he insists that Beckett should be compared to Sabathia. Yet if he was a fan of WAR and looked it up even on fWAR, he would see they are not even close in recent years (except 2007)

YanksFanSince78
4 years 6 months ago

I really hate defending ppl I dont particularly like butI’m amazed at how ppl interpret what he said.

Clearly he said THEIR CAREER numbers and even if he used out dated stats like Wins and ERA in a post earlier I showed a comparison between the two over their careers and they were very similar except that AJ is noticeably wilder by an additional BB per 9 innings.

“literally the only way to pretend these two pitchers are similar in any meaningful way at all is to go back and dig up numbers from 5 or more years ago. yes brilliant ken 2000-2006 will give us great insight into 2011 and beyond”

Clearly you choose to ignore the very premise of his article. He never made claims that AJ was as good over the last 3 years. But keep arguing the wrong arguement.

From the beginning, Rosenthal made it clear that the point was to motivate AJ into believing in his talant by showing his career stats vs Beckett’s and to say you too can be as good as he is, you just have to trust your stuff and let your talent take over. It was obviously not intended to insult Beckett or make a “who is better than who” arguement.

Did anyone really read and comprehend or did you just see AJ and Beckett in the same article and have a hissy fit?

notsureifsrs
4 years 6 months ago

that is such a naive reading of the article it almost doesn’t warrant reponse. the subject of the piece was very clear. rosenthal is talking up burnett’s ability for the future, not making discussion about his career. that is the article’s subject: burnett, current yankee pitcher, embarking on the 2011 season

in trying to talk the guy up, he used insignificant career numbers to create the illusion of parity between burnett and a much better pitcher, josh beckett. there is no way around this. it’s just underhanded get-people-talking weak as ever sports writing

because he didn’t say the words “a.j. burnett is as good as josh beckett”, you can of course rally around him if you want and claim everyone read rosenthal wrong. but that’s just pretty dishonest, really. rosenthal’s purpose was clear. he brought those numbers up for a reason, and it was a dumb thing to do

4 years 6 months ago

I agree with you 100%. This was not Ken’s message, but as a writer one must be aware of what they say and how it will be interpreted. And Ken (much like most other writers) said something controversial to get a reaction, which he did. Nothing out of the ordinary. Its just because its coming from one of the best in the business (regardless of if you like him or not) that it created this whole fiasco.

As I said, its a silly compariosn much like my Randy Wolf to Andy Pettite comparison. But I’m tired of hearing it nonetheless. Its been news for like 4 days somehow…

The_Silver_Stacker
4 years 6 months ago

I think most would take Beckett over Burnett, but both pitchers have had their share of highs and lows, Beckett with more success obviously. As of now both have to answer the critics with strong years. Burnett is an enigma and needs to prove he can be MORE consistent and Beckett needs to prove his numbers are not leading to an early decline.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Couldn’t agree more. Well said.

The_Silver_Stacker
4 years 6 months ago

There is way too much war on this thread

start_wearing_purple
start_wearing_purple
4 years 6 months ago

WAR, what is it good for?

Fangaffes
4 years 6 months ago

Absolutely nothing.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Edwin Starr knew.

0bsessions
4 years 6 months ago

Calculating an individual player’s value in comparrison to other players at his position.

4 years 6 months ago

I’m tired of this burnett to beckett comparison… I understand it sure… But take this one for example (only using Yanks cause it came to mind).

You can compare the careers of Randy Wolf and Andy Pettite by major league stats. Sure Wolf doesn’t have the same wins, but lets face it he played on inferior ballclubs his whole career. But 200 innings and just above a 4.00 ERA is what you are going to get from both pitchers. I hardly think any analyst would classify them in the same category.

4 years 6 months ago

The biggest difference in Beckett and Burnett is the way that they approach hitters, counts, and situations. Burnett is physically virtually the same pitcher Beckett is. 95 or so power fastball. Not afraid to challenge hitters upstairs. Beckett has the change-up and moreso its the mental element that Beckett has down that keeps him ahead of a guy like Burnett. Burnett still pitches scared when he starts getting hit.

Funny ehough, they are both huge injury risks too (though burnett has been healthy thusfar as a NYY)

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

I heard Theo tweeted that if he had kept Casey Kelly and the others and not traded for A-Gone, he’d be doing the same thing.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Sabathia to Beckett? lol, good one

Sabathia to Lester is more fair.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

However I do agree with you on Rosnethal’s article being pointless if he’s only going to show ERA, and the very useless W-L record. He did show OPS against though for whatever reason, but why the heck would he leave out, as you pointed, other things like WIHP and BB/9 and K/9

Fangaffes
4 years 6 months ago

Clearly he was cherry-picking to make his point. Slow news day.

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

Stop being a homer and look at the numbers would be my suggestion. I just responded to notsurifers and I see you liked his response and I don’t know if that’s because you use WAR, or if it’s because he’s a Red Sox fan like you

And for his sake I”ll use fWAR

Sabathia from 2007-2010 has a WAR of 26.1

Beckett has a WAR of 18.4

Burnett has a WAR of 12.8

The difference between Beckett and Sabathia is larger than the difference between Beckett and Burnett

MB923
4 years 6 months ago

WAR is not 1 statistic. And I’m glad that you’re trying to prove your “point” without showing me any information except something that appears to be your personal opinion. You said absolutely nothing about careers, OR a 3 year period. (both of which favor Sabathia anyway)